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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
A copper bowl works just fine in a thurible.
A foil liner is fussy. Scraping the bowl with a sturdy table spoon while the contents and the bowl are still hot suffices to clean the pliable, gooey mess out.
Waiting until they are cold is counterproductive and makes scraping out the hardened incense more difficult than necessary.
Our thuribles get soaked in tomato juice a few times a year. Each has a copper bowl that is lined with foil to make it easier to dump the used coals into a coffee can in the niche where the gas jet is.
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Bostonman
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# 17108
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Posted
I'm sure I could find this somewhere else, but you all are more knowledgeable than an encyclopedia and faster than Google.
What are the origins of the Christmas/St. Stephen/St. John/Holy Innocents chain of four days? (specifically the latter three, everyone knows about the date of Christmas) Are they coincidentally linked, as a matter of birthdays or deathdays? Or is there something thematic going on that I'm missing?
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
They're all in the Leonine Sacramentary so that puts them pretty early, the received wisdom being that the Leonine, which exists only in a single early seventh century copy, is witness to what was established in Rome in the middle of the fifth century. It is certainly post the Visogothic sack of Rome in 410 and the prevalence of prayers of thanksgiving for deliverance from occupying forces, combined with fragments of Pope St Leo the Great's sermons argues for a date not long after the Vandal occupation in 455.
It is tempting to see the arrangement as systematic or thematic but the origins of the dates of these celebrations are so opaque that the more certain the claims to some kind of organising principle, the more suspicious you should be: it's usually a case of that's how it is now let's find a post hoc rationale for it. You should note that the Roman arrangement of these feasts is not that used in the East. St Stephen and the Holy Innocents are marked, I believe, in the Byzantine Rite on the third (27th) and fifth (29th) days of the Nativity, St John is celebrated in May and September.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Our thuribles get soaked in tomato juice a few times a year. ...
!!! ??? Is tomato juice a granny's secret for cleaning copper, or is there some festival in your church that the rest of us don't know about which which involves the liturgical oblation of tomatoes?
[ 29. December 2012, 10:25: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
I'm sure I could find this somewhere else, but you all are more knowledgeable than an encyclopedia and faster than Google.
What are the origins of the Christmas/St. Stephen/St. John/Holy Innocents chain of four days? (specifically the latter three, everyone knows about the date of Christmas) Are they coincidentally linked, as a matter of birthdays or deathdays? Or is there something thematic going on that I'm missing?
26 December is the first of the three days that make up the Christmas Triduum, i.e., the three feasts that appear immediately after the Nativity of Our Lord. They were placed there for theological, rather than historical, reasons.
The 26th is the feast of St. Stephen the Protomartyr because St. Stephen was the first to willingly offer up his life for Our Lord.
The 27th is the feast of St. John the Apostle and Evangelist because St. John, "the disciple whom Jesus loved" and the one to whom Our Lord entrusted His Blessed Mother, wrote about the Incarnation in his gospel. The first 14 verses of the gospel of St. John, which make up the "last gospel" at EF Masses, testify that THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US (John 1:14). This is, in a nutshell, the reason for the Christmas season.
The 28th is the feast of the Holy Innocents because these infants were the first to suffer and die for Our Lord.
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
Ceremoniale, as I said above, the origins of the dating of these feasts is too early to be able to make the claim you make. It is a post hoc rationalisation at best.
[ 29. December 2012, 16:33: Message edited by: Trisagion ]
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The usual reason why St Stephen's Day is on the 26th December would be because the earliest tradition was that that was the day on which he was martyred, in which case it would be coincidence or divine serendipity.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
Almost, Enoch. In fact the earliest tradition for which we have much evidence in the West is the practice at a rome, where the tradition was to celebrate Martyrs' days on the day following the anniversary of their martyrdom.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Ceremoniale, as I said above, the origins of the dating of these feasts is too early to be able to make the claim you make. It is a post hoc rationalisation at best.
I knew that you would repeat that. While recognizing the difficulty of pinpointing the precise time of insertion into the kalendar, the old Catholic encyclopedia says the following:
"The Latin Church instituted the feast of the Holy Innocents at a date now unknown, not before the end of the fourth and not later than the end of the fifth century. It is, with the feasts of St. Stephen and St. John, first found in the Leonine Sacramentary, dating from about 485. To the Philocalian Calendar of 354 it is unknown. The Latins keep it on 28 December, the Greeks on 29 December, the Syrians and Chaldeans on 27 December. These dates have nothing to do with the chronological order of the event; the feast is kept within the octave of Christmas because the Holy Innocents gave their life for the newborn Saviour. Stephen the first martyr (martyr by will, love, and blood), John, the Disciple of Love (martyr by will and love), and these first flowers of the Church (martyrs by blood alone) accompany the Holy Child Jesus entering this world on Christmas day. "
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07419a.htm
Again, I realize the difficulties of dating something so ancient, but this is what every source I have ever seen has said. Ildefonso Schuster's classic study of the liturgy, The Sacramentary (volume I, 1924, Benziger), while acknowledging the same difficulty, also suggests that this is a reasonable proposition, from a scholarly perspective. The same goes for Adrian Vigourel's Synthetical Manual of Liturgy (1907, John Murphy Co.)
[ 29. December 2012, 20:05: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
First of all Ceremoniar, I apologise for mis-spelling your name.
I too have looked at Schuster but not at Vigourel. I wouldn't put the Catholic Encyclopedia in the same class, in terms of its scholarly concern for sources.
Of course it's a "reasonable proposition" but it is one entirely without any supporting evidence in extant documentary sources and, given the difference between the thematic development of the temporal cycle and the occasional development of the sanctoral, one is forced to ask the question: "nice though the notion is, why should we believe that the two developed together in this single example?" In the absence of any historical data, and acknowledging a quite understandable tendency to look for theological or devotionally helpful reasons for things that are simply accidents of history, what might seem a reasonable proposition doesn't get home as fact.
[ 30. December 2012, 07:24: Message edited by: Trisagion ]
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
First of all Ceremoniar, I apologise for mis-spelling your name.
I too have looked at Schuster but not at Vigourel. I wouldn't put the Catholic Encyclopedia in the same class, in terms of its scholarly concern for sources.
Of course it's a "reasonable proposition" but it is one entirely without any supporting evidence in extant documentary sources and, given the difference between the thematic development of the temporal cycle and the occasional development of the sanctoral, one is forced to ask the question: "nice though the notion is, why should we believe that the two developed together in this single example?" In the absence of any historical data, and acknowledging a quite understandable tendency to look for theological or devotionally helpful reasons for things that are simply accidents of history, what might seem a reasonable proposition doesn't get home as fact.
Understood. I would also like to point out that in the EF (pre-V2 missals), the entire Christmas season, including this Triduum, were all part of the proper of of seaons, rather than the proper of saints. This also suggests a deliberate structure, rather than accidental. It is a shame that the post-V2 missals no longer do this.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Our thuribles get soaked in tomato juice a few times a year. ...
!!! ??? Is tomato juice a granny's secret for cleaning copper, or is there some festival in your church that the rest of us don't know about which which involves the liturgical oblation of tomatoes?
I'm breaking out in hives (I'm allergic) just imagining the possible tomato rites. But I'm told the tomato juice's acidity is just enough to make the cleaning much easier yet not enough to corrode the metal.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I think Trisagion is right: serendipity rather than any deliberate structure. If anything, Stephen ought to be after Easter, surely? And the Innocents after Epiphany? What about St Joseph?
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
Traditionally, is there a difference between the Feast of the Naming of Jesus and the Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Isn't the Holy Name in August?
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
Trying to make 'logical' sense of the calendars seems to be something that will end in wearing a tinfoil hat and swaying gently. Still harder is adding the lectionary to the mix. Although the main gospel used this year is Luke, we get John's account of the wedding at Cana between the baptism of Christ and the temptation in the wilderness. Is this supposed to make sense?
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Traditionally, is there a difference between the Feast of the Naming of Jesus and the Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus?
AFAIK, just two recently invented names used by various Anglican provinces and Lutheran churches that are apparently squeamish about a Feast of the Circumcision of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
And the RCs made the whole thing a Marian feast.
[ 31. December 2012, 15:59: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
And I'm still trying to figure out what yesterday's Communion Proper meant in any context; 'Take the young child and his mother and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.'
My guess is that whoever prepared the Graduale we are using just missed that one! (Though the same text appears in Graduale Triplex for Year A.)
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Traditionally, is there a difference between the Feast of the Naming of Jesus and the Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus?
Growing up in the 50s and 60s in TEC we used both names - I expect The Holy Name was added so that squeamish folks could avoid pondering the mystery or Our Lord's Submission to the Law.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Traditionally, is there a difference between the Feast of the Naming of Jesus and the Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus?
Growing up in the 50s and 60s in TEC we used both names - I expect The Holy Name was added so that squeamish folks could avoid pondering the mystery or Our Lord's Submission to the Law.
The day involves both. These are related, but still separate, aspects of what took place. Devotion to the Holy Name has a life of its own, even beyond the submission to the law and shedding of First Blood.
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
And I'm still trying to figure out what yesterday's Communion Proper meant in any context; 'Take the young child and his mother and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.'
My guess is that whoever prepared the Graduale we are using just missed that one! (Though the same text appears in Graduale Triplex for Year A.)
I am confused. What is the puzzlement here? This is Matthew 2:20, when St. Joseph is directed to return the Holy Family to the Holy Land. It is the "all clear" from Above. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
And I'm still trying to figure out what yesterday's Communion Proper meant in any context; 'Take the young child and his mother and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.'
My guess is that whoever prepared the Graduale we are using just missed that one! (Though the same text appears in Graduale Triplex for Year A.)
I am confused. What is the puzzlement here? This is Matthew 2:20, when St. Joseph is directed to return the Holy Family to the Holy Land. It is the "all clear" from Above. [/QB]
Sorry. What I meant was that my confusion came from the disconnect with the lectionary. The Gospel was John 1:1-18 - if one hasn't heard even the 'flight into Egypt' yet, much less the return, it's a little confusing!
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
In the absence of a Priest, is it valid in the Anglican Communion (or parts of it) for a lay person to lead the Liturgy for Ash Wednesday with imposition of ashes (excluding the Eucharist, obviously) or must it be led by a Priest?
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Traditionally, is there a difference between the Feast of the Naming of Jesus and the Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus?
AFAIK, just two recently invented names used by various Anglican provinces and Lutheran churches that are apparently squeamish about a Feast of the Circumcision of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
And the RCs made the whole thing a Marian feast.
I have often wondered why so very few churches are dedicated to the feast of the Circumcision. Surely, it would be an ecumenical gesture toward our Jewish friends?
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
1928 (English) Baptism and Confirmation. Forbidden or just not authorised?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
1928 (English) Baptism and Confirmation. Forbidden or just not authorised?
Thurible
Also Solemnization of Matrimony. Have I been living in sin for nearly forty years?
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
1928 (English) Baptism and Confirmation. Forbidden or just not authorised?
Thurible
Also Solemnization of Matrimony. Have I been living in sin for nearly forty years?
On that point at least you're ok - the Church of England considers any legal marriage to be valid, and parliament diligently passes a bill confirming that all marriages done in the previous year are valid, even if the ceremony was incorrect in some fashion - so long as the paperwork was filed properly you're fine.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Oh, it was all fine until 1966, I think, and 1928 marriage. Is still kosher, having been explicitly authorised as Series One. Baptism and confirmation, though, were not.
I just wonder, though, whether they're actually forbidden or not.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
In the absence of a Priest, is it valid in the Anglican Communion (or parts of it) for a lay person to lead the Liturgy for Ash Wednesday with imposition of ashes (excluding the Eucharist, obviously) or must it be led by a Priest?
If there is no specific answer provided from an Anglican source, then the Catholic answer is yes and no. Yes, a lay person can lead the liturgy with imposition; no, a lay person cannot bless the ashes. A deacon or priest must do so.
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
1928 (English) Baptism and Confirmation. Forbidden or just not authorised?
Thurible
Also Solemnization of Matrimony. Have I been living in sin for nearly forty years?
On that point at least you're ok - the Church of England considers any legal marriage to be valid, and parliament diligently passes a bill confirming that all marriages done in the previous year are valid, even if the ceremony was incorrect in some fashion - so long as the paperwork was filed properly you're fine.
Phew! That's a relief. I hope the paperwork was in order, especially as we had to get permission from the ABC for starters. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Is Presentation/Candlemas celebrated in white or gold, or in the green of Ordinary Time? Is it different if it falls on a Sunday?
Can I transfer it to Sunday this year, or should I stick with Epiphany 4?
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It is in white or gold. In the RC rules, it is a feast of the Lord and so takes precedence over Sunday if it is falls on Sunday.
The C of E are quite excited by it, and have created an Epiphany season ending at Candlemass, which can be transferred to the nearest Sunday and then over-rides the Sunday.
Last year I was at Truro Cathedral for the Sunday before 2 Feb, and they kept the full works with a procession with candles but with red vestments.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Is Presentation/Candlemas celebrated in white or gold, or in the green of Ordinary Time? Is it different if it falls on a Sunday?
Can I transfer it to Sunday this year, or should I stick with Epiphany 4?
Feasts of Our Lord (except those of his Passion) are always white. The day's being a Sunday makes no difference.
The precise rules about transferring the feast will depend upon your denomination and country (the latter particularly if you are Roman Catholic, which I presume isn't the case as you refer to Epiphany 4). I'd check with the calendar/lectionary/other such resource as appropriate.
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I'm UMC, but I tend to follow TEC rules on stuff. The 1979 BCP states that Presentation takes precedence over Sunday when it falls on one, but I'm still unclear about transferring it.
Thanks for the answer on colors, though.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Traditionally, is there a difference between the Feast of the Naming of Jesus and the Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus?
AFAIK, just two recently invented names used by various Anglican provinces and Lutheran churches that are apparently squeamish about a Feast of the Circumcision of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
And the RCs made the whole thing a Marian feast.
I have often wondered why so very few churches are dedicated to the feast of the Circumcision. Surely, it would be an ecumenical gesture toward our Jewish friends?
Some apparently have not been following the thread devoted entirely to this subject:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=007705
Among the pertinent points raised in this discussion is that the first of January was most anciently a Marian feast (to honor her role in the Incarnation, as Mother of God), and the Circumcision feast came about later, in the Middle Ages. Even in the pre-Vatican II missal, the collects in the Mass for the Circumcision still are Marian in theme, asking for Our Lady's prayers, and quite indicative of the original Marian nature of the feast. Thus, the post-Vatican II revision of the feast was merely a restoration of its more ancient focus.
As for naming churches for the Circumcision of Our Lord being an ecumenical gesture toward the Jewish people, this is an ironic statement. The whole reason that the RCC dropped that name of the feast--followed within a few years by other denominations--was because Jewish leaders expressed their objections about the name of the feast to Blessed John XXIII. They did not believe that it is appropriate for Christians to use the name of an important Jewish ritual--signifying submission to the Mosaic law of the old convenant--as the basis of a feast to be observed by people who, in their view, do not adhere to Mosaic law, the old convenant, or Jewish tradition.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Incredibly random and not very liturgical, but recently I've run across the expression "a curate's egg." I have no idea what it means but it doesn't sound positive! Can someone explain what this curious expression means and from whence it might have come?
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Let Wikipedia be your friend.
(second attempt to format URL... help!)
[fixed code - the Ship's software seemed to be taking a particular dislike to that URL for reasons that are beyond me!]
[ 08. January 2013, 16:07: Message edited by: seasick ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Incredibly random and not very liturgical, but recently I've run across the expression "a curate's egg." I have no idea what it means but it doesn't sound positive! Can someone explain what this curious expression means and from whence it might have come?
It refers to a cartoon in the Victorian humourous magazine Punch.
The curate is having breakfast with his bishop and has been given a boiled egg. The dialogue was something along the lines:
Bishop: I'm afraid, Mr Crawley, your egg is bad.
Curate: O no, my Lord. Parts of it are excellent.
The phrase nowadays normally means "good in parts", although the original joke was that the entire egg was rotten and the curate couldn't say so.
Up to a point, Lord Copper. (I've just read read Waugh's Scoop.)
[deleted duplicate post]
[ 08. January 2013, 16:11: Message edited by: seasick ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
The curate was Mr Jones in the original. But Mr Crawley seems more appropriate.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
I'm UMC, but I tend to follow TEC rules on stuff. The 1979 BCP states that Presentation takes precedence over Sunday when it falls on one, but I'm still unclear about transferring it.
Thanks for the answer on colors, though.
I wouldn't transfer the feast, but that's just personal preference. I really dislike the whole "external solemnity" practice, where a feast falling on a weekday automatically is transferred to the nearest Sunday.
Nevertheless, it's licit in many jurisdictions, probably including your own. As far as I'm aware nothing in the 1979 BCP prohibits doing so, nor does any canon of which I'm aware, so if you're really burning to celebrate the Purification/Presentation on 2/3, you can probably go ahead. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
For us, it will be Sexagesima (commemorating St Blaise & St Anskar).
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
On the liturgical furnishings front, I wonder if any shipmates have seen anything like our Paschal candlestick (3 pics), now sadly in need of some TLC. Any ideas about its provenance?
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Unfortunately I can't help with your question, Qoheleth, but you are very near where I live when I'm home from uni! I worship at St Michael's Basingstoke outside of term time
Me, my best friend and her husband were at Evensong at Canterbury Cathedral on New Year's Eve. As we were sitting at the back and I am 5'1, I couldn't see everything (but attending a nosebleed-high church usually, I knew what was going on and just enjoyed the music). My friends however, were apparently puzzled by something carried in procession that was a long pole with a disk at the end - any ideas what it was?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Sounds to me like a verger's wand or staff: at Canterbury IIRC they have on oval metal head bearing the arms of the diocese (or possibly the cathedral- can't remember).
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Sounds to me like a verger's wand or staff: at Canterbury IIRC they have on oval metal head bearing the arms of the diocese (or possibly the cathedral- can't remember).
These are often also called "virges" (hence the occasional spelling "virger").
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
On the liturgical furnishings front, I wonder if any shipmates have seen anything like our Paschal candlestick (3 pics), now sadly in need of some TLC. Any ideas about its provenance?
Sadly, I can't help either, but it is genuinely beautiful (as is the Church from what I can see!)
Is there nothing in Church records about it, a plaque on it or reference to it in some history of the Church that could help?
Failing that try to find a history buff who might be able to help you...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Sounds to me like a verger's wand or staff: at Canterbury IIRC they have on oval metal head bearing the arms of the diocese (or possibly the cathedral- can't remember).
Aye, it does...
The virge I use when playing that role in Church is more resemblant of the mace than the long, slender poles that are most often seen.
It truly would make a wonderful weapon for beating back animals and crowds and keeping unruly choristors in-line...
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
That's the point of the virge, to clear the way for the procession; with pews they are generally ceremonial. Generally carried at 45 degrees in front of the verger, though some places carry it over the shoulder.
For more info see the Church of England Guild of Vergers site .
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
That's the point of the virge, to clear the way for the procession; with pews they are generally ceremonial. Generally carried at 45 degrees in front of the verger, though some places carry it over the shoulder.
For more info see the Church of England Guild of Vergers site .
Carys
...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I like Carys' 'generally' here, suggesting that sometimes virges are more than ceremonial. Perhaps they are.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Do we get a new random postcard thread for the new year? ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Good point. Thread closed.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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