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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Are all pyxes (for taking hosts to the housebound, not the hanging variety) the same size?
The pyx from my home communion set has gone awol and I want to buy a new one which will fit into the compartment meant for it. (As we reserve in both kinds, I use a kit that has slots for wine as well - it would be easier if I only needed a pyx which would fit into my pocket.)
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Hennah
Ship's Mother Hen
# 9541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Actually, "female bishops" gets about 8 million hits on google, versus one and a half for "women bishops" so it seems to be the other way round.
"Women bishops" just seems to be the phrase used on news reports and suchlike. I wondered if there was a specific reason, but perhaps it's just the style (in the "BBC house style" sense).
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Never stand behind satan in a Post Office queue: the devil takes many forms.
Posts: 925 | From: The Henhouse, Beside The Seaside, Kent | Registered: May 2005
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Are all pyxes (for taking hosts to the housebound, not the hanging variety) the same size?
No. There are several different sizes, in terms of capacity. There is some, though not much, difference in the diameters of various pyxes, but the most significant differences are the height (i.e., depth) of the pyx. Typicaly pyxes can hold anywhere between five and fifty hosts.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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maleveque
Shipmate
# 132
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hennah:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Actually, "female bishops" gets about 8 million hits on google, versus one and a half for "women bishops" so it seems to be the other way round.
"Women bishops" just seems to be the phrase used on news reports and suchlike. I wondered if there was a specific reason, but perhaps it's just the style (in the "BBC house style" sense).
Perhaps the preference for 'women' bishops rather than 'female' has something to do with sense that 'female' is a biological term that refers to all female creatures, while 'woman' specifically refers to humans? My alma mater went through a similar discussion 150 years ago. Bits of Vassar Trivia found here
- Anne L.
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Life isn't all fricasseed frogs and eel pie.
Posts: 1496 | From: Washington, DC or thereabouts | Registered: May 2001
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
We should rejoice that the term 'lady bishops' has not trended.
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That's not how we do it here.......
Posts: 464 | From: the middle bit at the bottom slightly to the right | Registered: Jun 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Are all pyxes (for taking hosts to the housebound, not the hanging variety) the same size?
The pyx from my home communion set has gone awol and I want to buy a new one which will fit into the compartment meant for it. (As we reserve in both kinds, I use a kit that has slots for wine as well - it would be easier if I only needed a pyx which would fit into my pocket.)
If you are near an ecclesiastial supplier, best to take the kit and try out which will fit in it. We have several kits in church and not all the pyxes fit in each kit.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
If you are near an ecclesiastial supplier, best to take the kit and try out which will fit in it. We have several kits in church and not all the pyxes fit in each kit.
Or measure it!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Thanks - I HAD thought of that but rulers/tape measures have a bit of non-measuring bits at the edge and the aperture is rather pokey but I'll try it.
Don't forget the width and depth of the 'hole' but you also have to think about the amount of clearance needed for the pyx lids etc when the box shuts.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
Question posed by a friend:
quote:
How does one know which liturgical colour is appropriate for a given weekday? e.g. is 1 Feb white (Epiphany season) or gold (Candlemas on 2nd)?
I would think that it's the same season until the change day, or am I wrong?
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Thanks - I HAD thought of that but rulers/tape measures have a bit of non-measuring bits at the edge and the aperture is rather pokey but I'll try it.
Don't forget the width and depth of the 'hole' but you also have to think about the amount of clearance needed for the pyx lids etc when the box shuts.
Yes - you've understood how complicated it is.
It is a shame that SPCK has closed. I am not due to visit London until May and can't wait until then - unless I put wafers in an envelope and prepare everything with my back to the recipient.
And as for 'post the host', don't even go there.
Maybe I shall pass on requests to the clergy - it's all very well having layfolk do home communions but i think it's good if a priest goes now and then - especially the more high church folk who might want to make their confession.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I seriously knew somebody who had a tuppaware container with a cross glued onto it for carrying the wafers around.....
It was a poor church in a poor area and nobody ever quite had the exprobitant price needed, to buy a home communion set..
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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maleveque
Shipmate
# 132
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
Question posed by a friend:
quote:
How does one know which liturgical colour is appropriate for a given weekday? e.g. is 1 Feb white (Epiphany season) or gold (Candlemas on 2nd)?
I would think that it's the same season until the change day, or am I wrong?
There are various liturgical calendars that can give the correct liturgical color of the day, depending on your tradition. Here's the Episcopal one. At the bottom of the page it says, quote:
The liturgical color appropriate for the day is indicated, when the color is green, red or purple, by the color of the numeral against a light grey background. When the liturgical color is white, the numeral is black against a white background.
- Anne L.
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Life isn't all fricasseed frogs and eel pie.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
Question posed by a friend:
quote:
How does one know which liturgical colour is appropriate for a given weekday? e.g. is 1 Feb white (Epiphany season) or gold (Candlemas on 2nd)?
I would think that it's the same season until the change day, or am I wrong?
In The Episcopal Church, Feb. 1 this year is in a green season, but it's also the lesser feast of St. Brigid (aka Bride), who was an abbess, so the color for the feast is white. Candlemas is white, too. Churches that have gold vestments use them as an extra-festive color on some feast days, and Candlemas might be one of them. But the calendar will show white for that day.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
I seriously knew somebody who had a tuppaware container with a cross glued onto it for carrying the wafers around.....
It was a poor church in a poor area and nobody ever quite had the exprobitant price needed, to buy a home communion set..
And in those circumstances, there's nothing at all wrong with tuppaware.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It is a shame that SPCK has closed. I am not due to visit London until May and can't wait until then - unless I put wafers in an envelope and prepare everything with my back to the recipient.
Come to Cardiff. Churches Together Bookshop in Windsor Place have at least some pyxes and would be very helpful if you brought the kit with you. It's only 50 mins by train and it's a nice place to visit.
Alternatively would plasticine/play dough help? Form it to a size that fits the hole and measure that.
Carys
[ETA paragraph]
[ 25. January 2012, 21:34: Message edited by: Carys ]
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It is a shame that SPCK has closed. I am not due to visit London until May and can't wait until then - unless I put wafers in an envelope and prepare everything with my back to the recipient.
Come to Cardiff. Churches Together Bookshop in Windsor Place have at least some pyxes and would be very helpful if you brought the kit with you. It's only 50 mins by train and it's a nice place to visit.
Alternatively would plasticine/play dough help? Form it to a size that fits the hole and measure that.
Carys
[ETA paragraph]
Two excellent ideas. Thank you. I'll try the latter tonight before i lead a Holocaust mem. Day service.
You must have watched Blue Peter.
[ 26. January 2012, 16:21: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
Question posed by a friend:
quote:
How does one know which liturgical colour is appropriate for a given weekday? e.g. is 1 Feb white (Epiphany season) or gold (Candlemas on 2nd)?
I would think that it's the same season until the change day, or am I wrong?
Most churches have an Ordo Calendar - basically a liturgical calendar hung on the wall in the sacristy. The colour of the numeral (or an abbreviation in the corner) gives the liturgical colour of the day. This week for example is as follows in our Ordo:
Sun 22 - Epiphany III - Green
Mon 23 - St Raymond - white
Tues 24 - St Timothy - Red
Weds 25 - Conv of St Paul - white
Thurs 26 - St Polycarp - Red
...and so on and so forth.
They also carry information about whether or not the Gloria and Creed are to be said, and whether or not there is a proper preface. All handy stuff for the celebrant to know before stepping out of the sacristy.
The entertaining thing about ours is that we publish it jointly with another ecclesiastical jurisdiction and they observe a lot more Octaves than we do. For example, the week after Circumcision (1/1) they were observing the Octaves of St Stephen. etc., whilst we were doing the ferial readings. Why we have never completely standardized calendars I do not know. Probably because that would be too simple!
PD
[ 26. January 2012, 17:41: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
A question to those with experience of Byzantine custom:
In Vespers of Holy Saturday with the Burial Service of the Lord (served on the afternoon of Great and Holy Friday), there is no mention of candles held by the people in any rubric that I can find for the earlier part of the service. Then, all of a sudden, when the burial shroud is carried from the altar in procession, the people are mentioned as having lighted candles in their hands. Obviously, there is an expectation that, at some point prior to this, there will be a distribution and lighting of candles but this is not mentioned.
Last year, we tried to give out lighted candles during the Aposticha, (immediately prior to the shroud being brought out) but this was messy and distracting. The logical sequence, to my way of thinking, is for people to be given candles as they arrive and for these to be lit during the Phos Hilaron by simply passing the light among the people. Is there an established practice which, while not enshrined in rubrics, is widespread and customary, or is it ok to just do what seems convenient?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Quick question/ alert warning (though too late for this year).
Did anybody using the Mowbray's edition of the RCL (NRSV), and using the readings for Epiphany 4 today rather than Candlemas, get tripped up as I was by the glaring typo in the Gospel? v21 says: 'John entered the synagogue and taught', when clearly Jesus is meant?
I got to that point, apologised, and started again! The mistake is in the large lectern edition of the Gospels, and also in the pew edition. It is nearly 15 years since it was published and it's surprising nobody in that church at least has noticed... maybe Epiphany 4 has cropped up less than the 5 times one might expect.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Quick question/ alert warning (though too late for this year).
Did anybody using the Mowbray's edition of the RCL (NRSV), and using the readings for Epiphany 4 today rather than Candlemas, get tripped up as I was by the glaring typo in the Gospel? v21 says: 'John entered the synagogue and taught', when clearly Jesus is meant?
I got to that point, apologised, and started again! The mistake is in the large lectern edition of the Gospels, and also in the pew edition. It is nearly 15 years since it was published and it's surprising nobody in that church at least has noticed... maybe Epiphany 4 has cropped up less than the 5 times one might expect.
Yes, we had that! (Church of Ireland). I half thought I had misheard, then that deacon had misread. That's that one explained!
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Make a commitment to scratch it out and write in the correct name ASAP. This is one of those moments when writing in the lectionary may seem taboo, but is better than the alternative of always hearing it incorrectly.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I did. Despite being the visiting priest.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Quick question/ alert warning (though too late for this year).
Did anybody using the Mowbray's edition of the RCL (NRSV), and using the readings for Epiphany 4 today rather than Candlemas, get tripped up as I was by the glaring typo in the Gospel? v21 says: 'John entered the synagogue and taught', when clearly Jesus is meant?
Thank you - I was just trying to word a post on that exact question - I was in the congregation at 8am and our Gospel reading was "John - no surely they mean Jesus - entered the synagogue". The misprint appeared in both our "Gospel book" and in the lectern lectionary (which has all the readings).
But it did give me a nice illustration on authority to add in to my 10 o'clock sermon - after all, if the big red Gospel book isn't authoritative, what is?
anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
A question to those with experience of Byzantine custom:
In Vespers of Holy Saturday with the Burial Service of the Lord (served on the afternoon of Great and Holy Friday), there is no mention of candles held by the people in any rubric that I can find for the earlier part of the service. Then, all of a sudden, when the burial shroud is carried from the altar in procession, the people are mentioned as having lighted candles in their hands. Obviously, there is an expectation that, at some point prior to this, there will be a distribution and lighting of candles but this is not mentioned.
Last year, we tried to give out lighted candles during the Aposticha, (immediately prior to the shroud being brought out) but this was messy and distracting. The logical sequence, to my way of thinking, is for people to be given candles as they arrive and for these to be lit during the Phos Hilaron by simply passing the light among the people. Is there an established practice which, while not enshrined in rubrics, is widespread and customary, or is it ok to just do what seems convenient?
Michael Astley, at the Russian/convert place nearby, we always have them in our hands at least by the time Psalm 118 (119) is starting. I don't know how helpful that might be.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
I'm looking for the list of Psalms and Psalm verses that are omitted in the New Zealand Prayer Book.
I've trawled every which way with google, but I'm coming up empty.
Is there anybody here who can help?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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simwel
praying fool
# 12214
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Posted
When is it normal to “veil” the crosses in Church? For the whole of Lent i.e. after Ash Wednesday or just for holy Week after Palm Sunday
Posts: 74 | Registered: Jan 2007
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simwel:
When is it normal to “veil” the crosses in Church? For the whole of Lent i.e. after Ash Wednesday or just for holy Week after Palm Sunday
Traditionally, and still mentioned in the latest Roman missal, crosses and statues are veiled for the last two weeks of Lent - the season of Passiontide.
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Churches used to be stripped of 'decoration' as far as possible for Lent, with decorative features not easily moved being covered with a veil. The instinct has always been towards simplicity and ancient tradition in 'solemn' seasons (seen at its extreme in the stripping of a church for Good Friday), with elaboration and 'newness' kept for seasons like Easter.
It seems paradoxical to cover the cross, being such a focus of Lenten devotion for us today, but altar crosses were a relatively late innovation, so were treated in the same way as other 'decorations'. This veiling (in unbleached linen) was from Ash Wednesday in the 'Sarum' tradition, and (usually with purple veils) from Lent 5 in the 'Roman' tradition (but optional since the introduction of the current form of the Roman Rite).
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simwel:
When is it normal to “veil” the crosses in Church? For the whole of Lent i.e. after Ash Wednesday or just for holy Week after Palm Sunday
It depends on the custom followed in your church. The Roman rubrics call for veiling, I believe, from Lent V onwards while Sarum rubrics call for veiling from the beginning of Lent. Customs - even traditional ones - vary. In either tradition, my experience is that real veils are used, and not "veils". ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Silent Acolyte, thank you. Though I wonder whether we may have a crossed wire. I'm unfamiliar with psalm 118 at this service. We have psalm 103 at the beginning then there is no kathisma appointed. Not to worry. Having now looked properly at the service I realise that lighting the candles at the Phos Hilaron would leave too long a time until the Burial, thus detaching the two events in the minds of the people. The Song of Symeon seems a better time. Then we can get them on their knees when the Burial Shroud cones out.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
In Vespers of Holy Saturday with the Burial Service of the Lord (served on the afternoon of Great and Holy Friday), there is no mention of candles held by the people in any rubric that I can find for the earlier part of the service. Then, all of a sudden, when the burial shroud is carried from the altar in procession, the people are mentioned as having lighted candles in their hands. Obviously, there is an expectation that, at some point prior to this, there will be a distribution and lighting of candles but this is not mentioned.
and
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
Silent Acolyte, thank you. Though I wonder whether we may have a crossed wire. I'm unfamiliar with psalm 118 at this service.
I'm probably the one that's confused.You mention Saturday Vespers that is served on Friday afternoon. Mother Mary and Kallistos Ware's Triodion has Saturday Mattins served on Friday evening in parish churches. They put Saturday Vespers at about 10 or 11 o'clock on Saturday morning. It is the Saturday Mattins service at which I remember holding candles during the verses of Ps. 118 (119) interspersed with troparia.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Oh, I see. I think it's just a matter of different terminology.
What I'm referring to as Vespers of Holy Saturday is Vespers on Good Friday afternoon. It is technically the first service of Holy Saturday, and commemorates the taking down and burial of the Saviour's body as it was nearing sundown, (so that no work may be done on the Sabbath. I assume this is why the service is called for in the mid-to-late afternoon rather than the more usual evening time of Vespers).
The Vesperal Liturgy called for on Holy Saturday afternoon (but often served in the morning in many parishes - a change introduced in my parish last year and which I hope to see reversed) is actually the old Paschal Vigil. According to Metropolitan Kallistos, this is the older Easter vigil which, when the new one was introduced at night, was simply moved to the afternoon rather than being abolished, because it was loved by the people. These days, the people who go to this tend to be those who would find it difficult to attend the night vigil: elderly people, families with large numbers of children, people who rely on public transport (not readily available in the early hours of Sunday morning to take them home) and so forth. For them, this is their only Easter service and they will often bring their Easter baskets then. Also at this service will be the keenies, who come despite planning to be back again at night.
I don't at all like this being served on the Saturday morning because I think this is far too early for an Easter Vigil. The rubric calls for it at about 4 pm. Yet I can understand that a parish with one priest, who may have to work full time to support himself, may need to allow him time to rest between weekend services. Also, if a decorating party wants to prepare the church for the night vigil, they may be pressed for time if the services were all done at the appointed times.
My parish doesn't have the resources to serve Holy Saturday Matins on top of everything else so I have never experienced it. Perhaps one day.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Liturgical geekery alert:
The old Paschal Vigil I mentioned is so ancient that it has common roots with the vigil with which Western Christians will be familiar. Some common elements:
- A large number of Old Testament readings tracing the salvation history of mankind. Many of the readings are the same in east and west.
- A change from dark vestments and hangings to light ones during the course of the service, as in the west (ignoring the modern reforms).
- Baptism. Baptisms were performed during this Liturgy in olden days and there has been something of a return to that in some places. Even in parishes where this is not done, the Trisagion is still replaced by "As many as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ: Allelulia!" as a remnant of former practice. Of course, baptism is still done at this point in the west.
- Culmination in the first Eucharistic celebration of the Resurrection.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simwel:
When is it normal to “veil” the crosses in Church? For the whole of Lent i.e. after Ash Wednesday or just for holy Week after Palm Sunday
The church i attended as a teenager followed 'Sarum' = lenten array/hessian veils on cross and candlesticks, even on the little crosses on top of the churchwardens' staves.
Roman usage used to veil in purple from passion Sunday onwards.
Post Vatican 2, no veiling except for anything that cannot be removed after the Maundy Thursday mass of the last supper
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Post Vatican 2, no veiling except for anything that cannot be removed after the Maundy Thursday mass of the last supper [/QB]
Not quite so; the new missal makes it clear that veiling of crosses and images is still an optional observance from Lent 5 until Good Friday (crosses) and Easter vigil (images). The conference of bishops may decide that this is to be observed.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
There was recently an earthquake in the Philippines, and my congregation has a connection to one of the villages near the epicenter.
I am looking for a hymn that would be well-known to most Christians in the Philippines. It must be something that has an English translation.
There are a couple in our hymnal:
Lord, Your Hands Have Formed (Gayom Ni Higami/Ikalahan)
When Twilight Comes (Dapit Hapon)
but I'm not sure how widespread or well-known they are in the Philippines.
Any information or suggestions would be appreciated.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simwel:
When is it normal to “veil” the crosses in Church? For the whole of Lent i.e. after Ash Wednesday or just for holy Week after Palm Sunday
My somewhat low church Reformed Episcopal Church parish veils for all of Lent. But I don't know how "normal" that is.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I think the veiling for all of Lent is an old MOTR Episcopalian practice and also one that I've only ever seen in Episcopal churches in Texas, where I believe you are located, St Punk. The other two practices I've seen are veiling from what used to be designated as Passion Sunday - Lent V - the Sunday before Palm Sunday; and alternatively, only on Palm Sunday up to the Great Vigil and First Mass of Easter. The two latter practices I've seen variously in different Anglo-Catholic parishes.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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jordan32404
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# 15833
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Posted
Isn't the "veiling" the so-called Lenten Array mentioned by Dearmer?
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
Isn't the "veiling" the so-called Lenten Array mentioned by Dearmer?
It's one way to do it. There is a section about halfway down this page which discusses veiling traditions. The "Sarum (English Use)" paragraph speaks to your question. My church has "Lenten Array" vestments (an off-white rough linen trimmed in deep crimson and black) but we don't veil anything. Well, there's a white/homespun drape placed on the cross that's hung over the altar. But nothing covered up.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
I hope this qualifies as a liturgical question!
Background:
I saw in the news that Archbishop Dolan, as part of the process elevating him to the cardinalate will preach a sermon to the pope and other cardinals and then answer questions from them - all in Italian. I assume he speaks the langugage having lived there.
Question:
Do all new cardinals have to preach and answer questions in Italian? I would not think so.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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malik3000
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# 11437
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Posted
Perhaps they would employ a translator?
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
But it is Latin and not Italian that is the official language of the Church!
Though from a selfish point of view, I like the Italian language, but that is neither here nor there.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
Nonetheless, i think that, for practical purposes, Italian is the working language of Vatican City. The main edition of L'Osservatore Romano (sp?) the official Vatican daily, is in Italian (although it also appears in other languages on a weekly basis I believe)
Official documents, of course, like encyclicals, are published in Latin.
[ 15. February 2012, 18:25: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
What's all this business about bridal chambers?
I am just setting the Holy Saturday canon to music in preparation for the Midnight Office at the Paschal Vigil, and have been reminded of the clause (speaking of Jonah as a type of Christ) "...he burst forth from the beast as from a bridal chamber".
I know about Christ as the bridegroom and understand that a bridegroom figure from before the Incarnation may be seen to typify Christ in some way; I also see how Jonah bursting forth from the whale (yes, I know - let's not go there) is taken as a foreshadowing of Christ bursting forth from the tomb. I just don't see how someone popping out of a sea monster is analogous to a bridegroom. Is there something about the understanding of marriage ceremonies and symbolism in ancient times that is now lost?
I think there are similar analogies in other hymns. Is anybody able to shed light on this?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Each day before my morning devotions I pray the beautiful Psalm XIX ('The Heavens declare the Glory of God: and the firmament showeth forth His handiwork'). It includes the line, pertaining to the sun, 'He hath come forth as a bridegroom from his chamber: and rejoiceth as a giant to run his course'. I have always taken this to mean that the exit of the newlywed man on 'the morning after' - no doubt ready for his breakfast - was considered a particularly celebratory moment!
Now, this is the kind of thing I'd get rather embarrassed about in our current culture but I suspect things might have been rather different back then. More... earthy ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
With respect to specific Biblical references, you could consider starting a thread in Kerygmania perhaps?
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Psalm XIX...'He hath come forth as a bridegroom from his chamber: and rejoiceth as a giant to run his course'.
Where else have I heard this? Oh yes, in the fourth stanza of Veni, Redemptor, the office hymn for Christmas Eve:
Forth from his chamber goeth he,
That royal home of purity,
A giant in twofold substance one,
Rejoicing now his course to run.
I'd never made the connexion with Psalm 19, but of course it was in the author's mind.
BTW, I love Kenneth Leighton's stunning musical representation of these words (as I hear it) in his valedictory organ work, "Veni, Redemptor: a celebration." It seems to me that the piece builds up gradually to a page or two of dance and fanfare which incorporates a device that Bach had used to symbolize the dual nature of Christ. Leighton underlines this allusion with a clear appearance of the B-A-C-H motive. Then a mighty, descending pedal line (through two octaves) brings home a long-delayed completion of the hymn melody, ending on low C. This musical evocation of Christ's Incarnation is comparable to the opening of Olivier Messiaen's Dieu Parmi Nous in drama and power.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
That makes sense actually, dj_ordinaire. Thank you! Yes, I can see how that might be understood culturally as a celebratory and triumphal emergence, and I'm happy with the explanation without need to delve into the scriptural references further (although, of course, others are free to do so if they wish). That reading would certainly fit with the spirit of the service as well, which has a sort of laid back, no-holds-barred approach to celebrating the Resurrection. In the Paschal canon, (sung a mere few minutes after the line I quoted above), there is one hymn which, calling to mind the freed Israel in the wilderness, goes:
quote:
Come, let us drink, not miraculous water drawn forth from a barren stone, but a new drink from the fount of incorruption, springing from the tomb of Christ, in Whom we are established.
Those who can read the Slavonic and Greek tell me that the noun "drink" is a poor rendering of what, in the original languages, is not merely any old drink but carries the sense of an alcoholic beverage, drunk in social celebration. It's essentially saying, 'Christ is risen! Let's get p*ssed.' I have seen some translations render it as "beverage" or "vintage" to try to capture something of that sense, (although the latter with seeming attempt at respectability).
[ 17. February 2012, 17:09: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349
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Posted
Next week is Lent and I loathe replacing the Te Deum with the Benedicite for Morning Prayer because to me, this canticle is not suitably penitential. I am fond of the Prayer of Manasseh in the US Book of Common Prayer. Is there a Cranmerian version of this Prayer? Or am I stuck using the KJV version of it?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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georgiaboy
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# 11294
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Posted
AB:
As the so-called Prayer of Manassah was not used as a canticle by Cranmer or his 16th & 17th century successors, and if you want to avoid KJV, your best best will probably be The Great Bible, which is IIRC the source of the BCP biblical material of that time.
For me, I always sort of giggle at 'the knees of my heart.' One can only carry a metaphor so far. YMMV.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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