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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Germanwings disaster and the (inexcusable) modern desire to go out with a bang
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I'm working with incomplete information here because we don't really know what was going through the mind of the Germanwings co-pilot's mind when he locked the pilot out of the cockpit during his bathroom break and then proceeded to fly the plane into a mountain. The authorities and the media seem to be assuming that he did it deliberately so far, but we don't have any idea of his motivation yet. He seems to have been regularly checked for physical and mental health and seems to have appeared completely normal and stable to everyone who knew him whose interview I have read. There also do not seem to be any indications as of yet that there was any terrorist motivation to the crash. However, it is still very early in the investigation.
What worries me is that there seems to be a growing trend in multiple countries and cultures for people to end their lives catastrophically in a way that kills many others in the process. Some of these people are terrorists and some are mentally ill (some are both). There are suicide bombers and people who go on shooting sprees and shoot themselves in the end (or hope the police shoot them). A man in South Korea in 2003 killed himself and over a hundred others in a subway fire. I was surprised to read that there have been multiple instances over decades of ordinary commercial pilots of multiple nationalities intentionally crashing planes (for reasons that remain unknown). Some people are targeting specific individuals or a specific group of people to kill while others don't really care whom they kill as long as they get to bring some people along with them.
Perhaps this wish to go out in an orgy of death can be identified in all periods of history. But something seems different about just how common this kind of violence is. I don't think people are all out copying each other but this kind of going out with a bang is increasing on people's mind as an "option" - an immoral option, but hey, our minds are full of plenty of other immoral options like old-fashioned murder and rape already. It reminds me a lot of the explosions, fireballs, etc., that I grew up with in video games, cartoons, superhero and action movies etc. In this kind of media, buildings, cities, even planets can explode and hundreds or millions of CGI-animated people can drop dead or be vaporized around the hero (or antihero) while s/he escapes unharmed (or if it is his/her turn to exit the plot, s/he gets to "go out like a badass").
I'm not proposing any kind of censorship - I doubt any would even work - and I really like watching my world-ending-explosions, superheroes destroying cities while they battle bad guys (remember when superheroes saved cities?) and pew-pew-pew-bodies-falling-everywhere action movies. And I LOVE hitting the shoot button as fast as I can with a video game controller and hoping that works (I'm too lazy to come up with another strategy). It obviously is a huge jump from fiction and games to actually killing oneself and others. But I think that the temptation to cause mass destruction - especially now that we can envision the technology to do it, or at least can envision using the technology we have at hand to do something like it - is something we all have gnawing at us in the back of our minds, some more than others, and that it is something worth talking about.
[edited thread title]
[ 27. March 2015, 05:37: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
But I think that the temptation to cause mass destruction......is something we all have gnawing at us
You got a mouse in your pocket?
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
stonespring--
This isn't aimed at you, just at something you brought up.
I think we don't really *know* the cause of anything yet. The co-pilot may well have been the cause of the crash. But investigators and media are reasoning from very little information; and sometimes the wrong conclusion is reached.
Different circumstances, but a guy named Richard Jewell was widely blamed for the Olympic Park bombing. Turned out he was innocent. But the damage was done, and he later killed himself.
And that, and some other incidents, left me a little queasy about deciding quickly who did what. I know the cockpit of that plane is a much more confined situation, and things may well be the way they look.
I just think we should be a little careful.
I'm mulling over the rest of what you said. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
if it is his/her turn to exit the plot, s/he gets to "go out like a badass"
Like Samson?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
I'm sure there must be a good reason, but why does flight information get stored in a black box that goes down with the plane rather than being beamed somewhere else?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
A lot of information already is.
I'm not technical enough to get the details right, but for instance, the change in altitude settings in the cockpit in the recent disaster has been confirmed by ground tracking even without recovery of the flight data recorder (see here).
Since the loss of Air France 447 over the Atlantic, there have also been moves to have more data fed back in real time; the problem as I understand it then beecomes one of bandwidth.
While these measures may help understand some details of what happened, though, they are pretty much useless when confronted with the human factor. Debate over how best to mitigate the latter rages on pilots' forums. One insightful comment is that security concerns appear to have overtaken safety concerns, which is not a good thing.
My observation is that the trend is to pour resources into technical solutions because these are easier to quantify (and thus account), whereas investing more in human resources would be more productive overall. There is a similar trend in a field I'm much more familiar with - prisons.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
This news made me shiver, my son is a co-pilot flying A320s.
I can begin to imagine what this man's family are going through. They will never live normally again. Added to their grief at the terrible loss of their son will be his unthinkable actions. Did he not think of them, at least?
Maybe something else happened and it was not his fault - but it seems unlikely, he would have spoken to air traffic control if there were a problem his side, also the door would have been openable if he wanted it to be.
My son flies for Easyjet and, as from today, two people will be in the cockpit at all times. How a cabin steward would have been able to stop a determined suicide attempt, I'm not sure. But do doubt more training will now take place plus new ideas about door security.
![[Frown]](frown.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
It has to be said that many European carriers have already long had the policy EasyJet is just loudly adopting - Ryanair for instance. And I think it's been SOP in the US for much longer. The thinking is safety-oriented, as well as security-oriented.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Boogie I remembered that one of your sons was a pilot and was thinking of you.
Air New Zealand has brought in the rule of two crew on the flight deck at all times too (previously they only had it with flights seating 90 plus people),
Huia
[ 27. March 2015, 06:17: Message edited by: Huia ]
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re the black box:
After that flight from Malaysia totally disappeared, there was a lot of discussion of that, IIRC. I think it was something along the lines of the basic technology exists, but the industry is slow to put new things in planes--preferring to trust known tech. But maybe they could do boxes that both store the info *and* beam it to multiple different places--the more copies, the more chances that one will survive. And if the signal does get through to multiple place, then someone can track back from all the signals to find the point of origin.
Re Boogie's comments about what may have happened in the cockpit:
I can think of other possibilities: someone else was in there; if the door lock is electric, then it might have been hacked, and same with the altitude setting; and maybe the co-pilot wasn't able to speak, for some reason. Maybe he became sick, and crashed into the door and the instrument panel.
I'm not saying any of those things *did* happen--just that something may have happened that the authorities haven't figured out yet, and it's probably tempting to settle on a likely-seeming explanation that settles things more quickly than some other air disasters.
FWIW, YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Correction: Richard Jewell died of natural causes. I either misremembered, or was misinformed. Sorry.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The alternative explanations don't really hold water, GK.
Like you, I'm generally nervous of rapid judgments in advance of full consideration of all the evidence. But Bruce Robin, in charge of the independent French investigation team, has made the case very clearly.
The clinching argument concerns the locking of the cabin door from the inside to prevent the pilot unlocking it from the outside, using a touch panel and a code. For security reasons, that system can be over-ridden from inside the cabin by activating a locking mechanism. I've seen that mechanism. It requires two deliberate actions to engage and the design of the mechanism means it cannot happen by accident, such as falling on the control panel.
There will be forensic evidence from the crash scene to support the current assertion that there was only one person in the cabin and that was the co-pilot. On site investigators will have provided a preliminary view, subject to possible/probable DNA confirmation. And there is the audio record, which tells a very clear story.
M Robin's assertions do not look in any way like a premature announcement or some kind of convenient "stitch-up". The evidence released to date is very impressive. As has been M Robin's presentation of it.
This is an awful situation for all grieving relatives. Including the parents of the dead pilot.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
It seems to me that the best information we have points to a monstrous form of mass murder.
But questions do remain:
Wouldn't a person doing this want to tell everyone why?
Wouldn't he at least speak to ground control moment before the crash?
Wouldn't he say something (anything) to be recorded on the data recorder?
These seem to suggest that something very odd was going on and that it does not seem to fit within the 'usual' parameters of a terrorist incident.
I guess maybe such things will emerge with time - it would be very odd if there turned out to be no explanation.
Anyway, it seems to me that either we have a mass-murderer of some complexion, or we have some kind of massive conspiracy by persons unknown.
Either way, scary stuff.
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arse
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
But no-one is framing this as terrorism. The investigating authorities have explicitly said they have no evidence of this being terrorism.
I would also hesitate to call this mass murder, although I also acknowledge the Marseille prosecutor's hesitation to call it suicide given that suicide doesn't normally involve taking 149 people with you. But it is very much a question of where his mental focus was: did he have intent to kill others while accepting he would die in the bargain, or did he have intent to kill himself and not care sufficiently about the lives of others?
As to the suggestion earlier in the thread that investigators are working from limited information, I really don't think that's true. This is whole purpose of black box recorders, to maximise the information available. They have records of the plane's movements, but more importantly they have sound recordings. They can hear the calls from the control tower being received. They can hear the banging on the door. They can hear the co-pilot breathing.
The only possible situation where this isn't deliberate is him somehow becoming completely incapacitated after (1) putting the plane into descent, and (2) locking the door. I'm not clear on whether locking the door is normal procedure when one of the pilots has left - it might be, given the whole purpose of the secure door post-9/11, but some of the commentary on this particular flight has not given me that impression. But there is no operational explanation for making the plane descend.
[ 27. March 2015, 08:23: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Barnabas--
Thanks for the info and perspective. I was just coming here to post a NY Times article on how the lock works.
One thing I'm not clear on: do the two steps for opening the door from the inside *both* require manually working the lock? Or is one electronic and one manual?
Re whether someone else was in the cockpit: you said that forensics could clear that up. I was thinking that, given the speed of the crash and how the plane shattered ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) , any remains would've been thrown far from the plane--and the cockpit seats might be pulverized.
As to the audio record telling "a very clear story", I found a brief summary on the PBS "Newshour" site:
quote:
The prosecutor described the flight’s final 10 minutes. He said the captain left the cockpit, perhaps to use the bathroom, leaving the co-pilot alone at the controls to start the plane’s descent.
The captain is heard pleading to be let back in, but there is no response, the only cockpit noise, the sound of the co-pilot breathing normally, with passengers heard screaming just before the moment of impact.
If the only noise is the co-pilot's normal breathing, ISTM that doesn't necessarily mean any more than that he was conscious. And it seems like there wasn't a sound from locking the door from the inside. Maybe it was too quiet. I don't know.
Horrible thing, whatever happened.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But no-one is framing this as terrorism. The investigating authorities have explicitly said they have no evidence of this being terrorism.
I heard that - and they also said it wasn't suicide.
But they also said that the pilot appeared to have destroyed the plane deliberately.
My question then is how exactly they are defining terrorism and/or suicide such that killing a plane full of people and oneself isn't it..? If it isn't murder or terrorism, what is it?
quote:
I would also hesitate to call this mass murder, although I also acknowledge the Marseille prosecutor's hesitation to call it suicide given that suicide doesn't normally involve taking 149 people with you. But it is very much a question of where his mental focus was: did he have intent to kill others while accepting he would die in the bargain, or did he have intent to kill himself and not care sufficiently about the lives of others?
There seems to have been deliberate actions which prevented the other pilot from entering the cockpit. As far as we know (which, of course, might be totally wrong but appears to have come from the investigators) the person at the controls was conscious and was in full control.
Deliberately flying a plane into a mountain (if that is what happened) is clearly murder, and arguably terrorism. Whatever his mental health was at the time does not change that.
quote:
As to the suggestion earlier in the thread that investigators are working from limited information, I really don't think that's true. This is whole purpose of black box recorders, to maximise the information available. They have records of the plane's movements, but more importantly they have sound recordings. They can hear the calls from the control tower being received. They can hear the banging on the door. They can hear the co-pilot breathing.
I think the point is that it is a chaotic audio situation and they are giving preliminary conclusions which may not hold up to final scrutiny. For example, perhaps, it might be proven later that the pilot fell into a coma and that the door jammed.
Of course, I don't know anything about it, but presumably there is a reason why crash investigators do not normally release details this quickly after a crash.
quote:
The only possible situation where this isn't deliberate is him somehow becoming completely incapacitated after (1) putting the plane into descent, and (2) locking the door. I'm not clear on whether locking the door is normal procedure when one of the pilots has left - it might be, given the whole purpose of the secure door post-9/11, but some of the commentary on this particular flight has not given me that impression. But there is no operational explanation for making the plane descend.
I think you lack imagination.
The door could have malfunctioned.
The guy could have been under hypnosis
He could have been having a heart attack and accidentally pressed the door button
Etc and so on.
Of course, I don't know and you don't know what is feasible and what is impossible. This is why there are professional accident investigators.
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arse
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The TV report I saw from inside a similar cockpit showed a toggle switch, guarded by protective housing. In order to engage it in the lock position, two mechanical operations are required.
1. To pull upwards positively on the toggle to release it prior to engaging the lock position. The toggle cannot be simply pushed into the lock position without that preliminary upward pull.
2. Then to push the toggle to the lock position, which is one of three positions the toggle may take.
This isn't one of the two normal setting. It is designed to be used only in the eventuality that hostiles are outside the cabin and have obtained the code for unlocking from outside.
I suppose one might argue that the mechanical release mechanism (stage 1) might have failed. But the plane received its last maintenance check one day before the fatal flight so that seems highly unlikely, given current focus on cabin security.
So far as forensics are concerned, it seems highly likely that the locked bulkhead door would have both survived the impact and also provided a marker for the remains of the pilot cabin. Crash scenes are incredibly gruesome, but it would be very unusual not to have evidence of cabin occupancy in the tangled cabin wreckage. Also, finding and investigating the cabin site would be a high priority for initial site investigation, again because of security issues.
No doubt more of this will come out in due course. As will any further evidence of the co-pilot's state of mind (apparently significant findings have now been made).
[ 27. March 2015, 08:55: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The door could have malfunctioned.
The guy could have been under hypnosis
He could have been having a heart attack and accidentally pressed the door button
There are some things the investigators know, or have not yet established from retrieved data, that have not yet been made public.
However, it appears incontrovertible from what they have disclosed that the descent was initiated deliberately. There is no obvious reason for doing this other than the one that has been put forward, especially given the lack of comms.
It could just be that the descent initiation was some sort of error that formed one of the "holes" in the "Swiss cheese model" of accident causation, but it doesn't look very much like it at this stage, again especially given the lack of comms.
I think the attempts to rule out deliberate action by the co-pilot stem largely from an understandable reluctance to face this possibility and its implications.
As to "terrorism", the Google definition says quote:
the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims
which means that intent is important.
Absent such intent, what we appear to be looking at can be described as murder-suicide.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As to "terrorism", the Google definition says quote:
the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims
which means that intent is important.
Absent such intent, what we appear to be looking at can be described as murder-suicide.
Apparently they've found things at the guy's house.
Should these express political views, I suspect it would be considered terrorism.
Indeed, I imagine what the authorities were meaning was that the crash did not appear to be
Islamic terrorism as we have seen it in recent times.
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arse
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Stonespring:
quote:
It reminds me a lot of the explosions, fireballs, etc., that I grew up with in video games, cartoons, superhero and action movies etc. In this kind of media, buildings, cities, even planets can explode and hundreds or millions of CGI-animated people can drop dead or be vaporized around the hero (or antihero) while s/he escapes unharmed (or if it is his/her turn to exit the plot, s/he gets to "go out like a badass").
You know, I really thought that perhaps we were beyond those days of blaming every bad thing on video games, TV and movies. Don't get me wrong, I can see the enormous appeal of wanting to be able to do so. It is a horrible tragedy and like any other horrible tragedy we like to be able to reason it through and look for something to blame it on - anything in fact other than that a human being consciously made a decision to murder 150 other along with himself, and I know a big part of it is that we don't like to think that a human being like you and I could be capable of such a terrible act. He may have been in some way 'disturbed', but I had hoped that we had better insight today into mental illness and instability to be able to steer away from silly apportioning of blame to random externals. I know every society in every age has done it up to now, whether it be witches, a curse, the devil or a spirit; but really, I do wonder if we might finally abandon these ideas to truly get to an understanding of what it is internally within a person that brings them to make such a decision. I'm really not at all convinced that it is a reasoned process, a process effected in any way by externals (at least as they really are) or one unaffected by the chemical mix inside the individuals brain. I'm conscious too that even in saying this I might be falling into the very same trap of trying to reason what is essentially wholly unreasonable
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I would also hesitate to call this mass murder, although I also acknowledge the Marseille prosecutor's hesitation to call it suicide given that suicide doesn't normally involve taking 149 people with you. But it is very much a question of where his mental focus was: did he have intent to kill others while accepting he would die in the bargain, or did he have intent to kill himself and not care sufficiently about the lives of others?
Under the assumption that the current theory of the co-pilot deliberately crashing the plane is confirmed: I would call him a mass murderer even in the second case, unless he can be considered to have been "insane" enough to not be able to perceive the consequences of his actions. Given what we know - that he he carried out a "normal" conversation till the pilot left the cockpit, and that he apparently was able to activate a two-step lock mechanism that kept the other pilot out - this is unlikely.
It is one thing to commit suicide in a way that leads to the death of others that is relatively unpredictable (at least for an non-expert). If you jump in front of a train, and the train derails catastrophically due to it, then you do have the excuse that you likely did not think your actions would kill anyone but yourself. But if you fly a passenger plane into a mountain, then it is exceedingly likely that you will kill everybody on the plane. This is eminently knowable, the decision to do this is deliberate, and I will call such a person a mass murder even if in their mind the only important consequence is their own death. To pick a less drastic example, somebody who decides to commit suicide by driving against traffic on the motorway and crashing into another car is a murderer in my eyes, no matter how much time they have spent thinking about the death of those in the other car. Only if people are literally incapable of thinking about the consequence to others due to insanity, then they are inculpable. Considering the lives of others as of no account does not free one of the responsibility for their deaths. If this man was capable of grasping that his action would result in the death of many innocent people, then he is a mass murderer.
In a curious way I also think we owe this distinction to the many people who commit suicide in a manner that does not kill others. They too were likely afflicted, broken by life and depression, or any other motivation for suicide you can think of. And yes, many of them will have hurt others by their deeds, at least psychologically. But still, they are not like this man, his actions are simply on a different level.
[ 27. March 2015, 09:29: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re black boxes:
From what I've been able to find out, they only have the voice recorder black box so far--not the other that tracks the instruments.
The info about the change in the autopilot setting came from tracking service FlightRadar24.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Ingo--
Though knowing what you're doing is wrong--or could at least have negative consequences--doesn't necessarily mean that you can do something else.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ingo--
Though knowing what you're doing is wrong--or could at least have negative consequences--doesn't necessarily mean that you can do something else.
Seems to me that is a bit of an excuse.
And, perhaps importantly, those who have mental illness (in particular depression) are usually no threat to anyone other than themselves.
A mental illness which involves no feelings about killing a plane-ful of people is a lot more serious than that reported about this guy.
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arse
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Though knowing what you're doing is wrong--or could at least have negative consequences--doesn't necessarily mean that you can do something else.
If he could not do something else, then he was not culpable. If this was true here, then I would call the act mass murder, but not the actor a mass murderer. However, I do not believe this to be true based on the accounts we have so far. Frankly, I think any explanation of how this man manages to sit alone at the controls of an air plane, but then entirely loses all control over his suicidal ideations on one hand, while on the other remaining mentally capable enough to lock out the pilot (presumably predicting that the pilot wouldn't wish to die with him and would try to prevent this from happening!), is to me a "just so" story. We may just as well claim that the man was not culpable, because he was possessed by a demon, and the demon used this opportunity to assert itself.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The TV report I saw from inside a similar cockpit showed a toggle switch, guarded by protective housing. In order to engage it in the lock position, two mechanical operations are required.
1. To pull upwards positively on the toggle to release it prior to engaging the lock position. The toggle cannot be simply pushed into the lock position without that preliminary upward pull.
2. Then to push the toggle to the lock position, which is one of three positions the toggle may take.
This video suggests that the two stage action is what is needed to unlock the door. Watching the video, the 'lock' action simply involves pushing the switch backward to a position from which it then springs back into the 'normal' position. This pushing back is designed to be used to deny keycode access for five minutes at a time.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
We do not know. Possibly no one will ever know. But if the most likely explanation is that the pilot deliberately crashed the plane, it's best to assume that is what happened unless someone comes up with another more plausible explanation.
If so, that is both suicide and murder. There is no real space for debate or discussion about that.
The same applied to the man a few years ago who chose to commit suicide by deliberately driving onto a level crossing so as to crash an express west of Reading.
What is really puzzling about those who take other people with them at the same time as they kill themselves, is that one would have thought that it was obvious that that is the way to make sure that you are casting yourself into the worst, hottest and nastiest place to spend eternity.
To do this, a person would have to be very, very confident that death is indeed the end and that not just Christianity but every other religion is completely wrong.
Nobody ever openly says this. But it is the elephant in the room that everyone knows is there.
Even then, it is incomprehensible why, and it isn't enough to say that as it is incomprehensible, the person must be mad rather than wicked.
[ 27. March 2015, 10:30: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Interesting, BroJames. That seems to contradict the substance of the report I saw (on Sky News), which formed the basis of the "deliberate locking out" scenario. No doubt the exact operation on the Germanwings plane will come out in a detailed report.
On general principles, the Sky explanation points to a better and safer design. Maybe there are some variations in manufacture?
[ 27. March 2015, 10:37: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Airbus's own instructional video can be seen on this page - you need to scroll down a bit.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If so, that is both suicide and murder. There is no real space for debate or discussion about that.
The same applied to the man a few years ago who chose to commit suicide by deliberately driving onto a level crossing so as to crash an express west of Reading.
Yes, I thought of that one too. There is also the still unresolved question as to whether the driver of the train involved in the 1975 Moorgate crash suffered some kind of blackout, mistook his location, or deliberately ran his train into the tunnel wall. No-one will ever know for sure.
I know very little about mental illness. But perhaps there comes a point where one is so focussed on one's own woes that one ceases to consider the consequences of one's actions for others.
Or is there even the possibility that one feels one is doing them a favour by killing them, as clearly they must be experiencing the same degree of misery as oneself? I don't know if that sounds plausible, perhaps others can comment.
Returning to the OP, wasn't there a philosopher (?Camus or Sartre) who suggested that suicide might possibly be construed as the one act which conferred the greatest personal significance upon its perpetrator? If that is so (and I'm not sure I agree with it), then it would make sense for a suicidal person to make sure they went out with the greatest "bang" possible.
[ 27. March 2015, 11:18: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
There is also the still unresolved question as to whether the driver of the train involved in the 1975 Moorgate crash suffered some kind of blackout, mistook his location, or deliberately ran his train into the tunnel wall. No-one will ever know for sure.
I thought of this one too. I still remember an Evening Standard headline: "how did the almost impossible happen?". The questions don't change much 40 years on...
quote:
Or is there even the possibility that one feels one is doing them a favour by killing them, as clearly they must be experiencing the same degree of misery as oneself?
I have indeed heard this theory put forward.
Those wanting to dabble in the details of door technology should go look at a few pilots' forums. And then consider the post-911 case of the gone-loony pilot locked out of the cabin for safety by the co-pilot and restrained by passengers...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Returning to the OP, wasn't there a philosopher (?Camus or Sartre) who suggested that suicide might possibly be construed as the one act which conferred the greatest personal significance upon its perpetrator? If that is so (and I'm not sure I agree with it), then it would make sense for a suicidal person to make sure they went out with the greatest "bang" possible.
I've not heard that view, but I can confidently say that I do not agree with it. Indeed, whoever propounded it, and however famous they may be, I'd be prepared to say it is objectively wrong.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
If the pilot was struggling with mental health problems then the reality of other people, and strangers at that, would probably not have meant a great deal to him. Or perhaps he'd been holding in feelings of hostility against the world. Who knows - it's impossible to know exactly what was going through his mind at the time.
Either way, it struck me as a kind of opportunistic rather than planned action. He would have had to wait for the unplanned moment to arise when his fellow pilot left the cabin - no set time for that, not something you can predict happening. I did wonder whether he had had this in mind on previous flights but simply not had the opportunity then.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think there could be a combination of planning and opportunism.
But we had better make sure we don't fall foul of the suicidal ideations policy here...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I have heard that the co-pilot had taken a prolonged leave-of-absence because of depression. He had been back on duty awhile, however.
On another forum someone suggested that his behavior might have been the result of discontinuing his anti-depressants. Apparently there are cases of people committing suicide while coming off anti-depressants.
Obviously, I can't be certain this is true.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
This pushing back is designed to be used to deny keycode access for five minutes at a time.
Interesting. Do we know how long the plane took to dive towards the crash?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
The Guardian has just reported that investigators have found a torn up doctor's note at his home signing him off sick for the fateful day.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
The way some of the media, particularly the print media have been covering this isn't particularly helpful. Yes, if what the indications from what the investigation have found so far are true, and it appears likely at the moment that that is probable, something was very wrong, whatever the co-pilot's motivation was - but the way some of the media are reporting it, it's almost as though nobody with depression should ever have a responsible job. Surely any pilot who's ever had experience of depression in the past is now worried - and maybe some people (in any job, not just pilots) are more likely to feel like they have to keep any symptoms of that or any other mental health problem under wraps, which isn't exactly healthy.
From this New Statesman article:
quote:
The Daily Mail story begins by narrating the pilot’s “’burnout’” and history of depression, before writing that “incredibly, he passed all his psychological assessments”. Aside from how outrageously incorrect the use of “incredibly” here is – the thing clearly happened - the suggestion that it’s impossible for someone with previous psychological problems to later be mentally well is naive and insulting. Again, people recover from depression all the time; going on to barely think about their illness.
Suggesting otherwise is – and here I refer again to the Samaritan guidelines – something likely to discourage vulnerable individuals. Given that one of the key symptoms of depression is feeling hopeless, an article that opens with the inference there’s no hope of recovery is what we in the trade call “totally fucking unhelpful”.
Mind have released a statement as a response to this, something it's also worth bearing in mind when discussing it online, or, in fact, discussing it anywhere.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
This pushing back is designed to be used to deny keycode access for five minutes at a time.
Interesting. Do we know how long the plane took to dive towards the crash?
Between eight and ten minutes. Subtract time for pilot to go to the loo and realise the problem. But even then, access denial can be extended. And the delay can be configured to longer.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
My question then is how exactly they are defining terrorism and/or suicide such that killing a plane full of people and oneself isn't it..? If it isn't murder or terrorism, what is it?
It isn't terrorism because the goal of terrorism is to force people to do what you want, to achieve political goals.
We throw the word "terrorism" around all the time now, in ways that make no sense. Such as having a War on Terror. Killing a lot of people isn't automatically terrorism, it's mass killing.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I know very little about mental illness. But perhaps there comes a point where one is so focussed on one's own woes that one ceases to consider the consequences of one's actions for others.
Or is there even the possibility that one feels one is doing them a favour by killing them, as clearly they must be experiencing the same degree of misery as oneself? I don't know if that sounds plausible, perhaps others can comment.
Returning to the OP, wasn't there a philosopher (?Camus or Sartre) who suggested that suicide might possibly be construed as the one act which conferred the greatest personal significance upon its perpetrator? If that is so (and I'm not sure I agree with it), then it would make sense for a suicidal person to make sure they went out with the greatest "bang" possible.
I have worked in mental health and in my experience suicidal depression can block out empathy for others, the person becomes inwardly focussed. The idea of doing others a favour by taking them with you sometimes occurs in parental murder-suicide but I suspect it is far less common outside of close relationships.
As for covering up depression, I have bipolar disorder and it's surprising how well you can appear on the outside when you mind is not in the real world. In my case it is far easier to hide the depressive side. If the reports are right about the ignored sick notes it sounds like he was having issues facing up to his mental health problems, possibly fearing for his job or perhaps due to psychosis, or even both.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think you lack imagination.
The door could have malfunctioned.
The guy could have been under hypnosis
He could have been having a heart attack and accidentally pressed the door button
Etc and so on.
Of course, I don't know and you don't know what is feasible and what is impossible. This is why there are professional accident investigators.
And I've been listening to the news from the investigators. Under hypnosis? Really? And how did this hypnosis happen?
Accidentally pressed the door button? I take it then that you've completely missed all the discussion about how he had to continue to override the access code?
The door could have malfunctioned? Okay, sure it could have... and then what? He just sat there and made no attempt whatsoever from his side to rectify the malfunction or open the door?
And what on earth makes you claim that the audio situation is "chaotic"? Have you got any factual basis for this statement?
For that matter, have you got any factual basis for suggesting there's something wrong with the timing of releasing this information? There was actually a considerable period between recovering the black box and releasing information about what was on the black box.
You could say I lack imagination. I could say, in return, that you making no attempt to fetter your imagination to known information.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Either way, it struck me as a kind of opportunistic rather than planned action. He would have had to wait for the unplanned moment to arise when his fellow pilot left the cabin - no set time for that, not something you can predict happening.
Maybe not 100% predictable, but actually I think it's a fairly regular occurrence. Note that it happened just after they reached cruising altitude - so they are in the 'boring' part of the flight. The perfect time to take a toilet break.
And for his purposes, exactly when it happened would be irrelevant. It just needed to happen at any point.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
This pushing back is designed to be used to deny keycode access for five minutes at a time.
Interesting. Do we know how long the plane took to dive towards the crash?
About 8 minutes.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
For that matter, have you got any factual basis for suggesting there's something wrong with the timing of releasing this information? There was actually a considerable period between recovering the black box and releasing information about what was on the black box.
There is a suggestion that the French prosecutor doing so contravened ICAO annex 13 which as I understand it, means those in charge of the accident investigation should have first dibs on disclosing information gleaned from the flight recorders. (I saw this expressed more forthrightly by the pilot's federation but can't find the same text now).
This is an example of how different agencies and jurisdictions may conflict in their handling of events. The prosecutor's disclosure was typical of his role in France, and it seems as good a way as any of releasing at least some much-sought-after information through an official channel, but I can understand the frustration of the official investigators given the painstaking nature of their enquiries and the commercial, technical and legal reasons for these being set up the way they are.
[x-post]
[ 27. March 2015, 13:13: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Take the Google definition. Explain to me how this act qualifies.
It never is, though, is it. Brevik was a closet Muslim (according to some), McVeigh was a lone fruitcake, blahdiblah.
If this guy had been slightly foreign-looking, we'd be looking for a convenient country to bomb in retaliation.
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arse
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