Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Germanwings disaster and the (inexcusable) modern desire to go out with a bang
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: quote: Originally posted by Teilhard: That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...
But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...
a lot of people are jumping from depression to violence rather casually,...
I'm seeing jumping not from depression to violence, but from a class of antidepressant drugs to violence. here's an old article saying "some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior."
The link between SSRIs and homicidal violence comes up with each school shooting - not depression and violence, but SSRI drugs and violence. Maybe we need a better way to help with depression.
That's interesting. I just meant that no professional that I'm aware of, has established a link between depression and this murder-suicide. The tabloid press are running with it, mainly to sell newspapers, I suppose.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eirenist: Belle Ringer: I hope none of the 149 passengers and crew are suffering;I would like to think that Lubitz is not suffering, though he may, now, be remorseful. But he will certainly be accountable for his actions, and I suspect he may well have to explain himself to those whose earthly lives he cut short (particularly the schoolchildren). Or do you think they should be grateful to him, for removing them from this vale of tears, and their families and friends?
We know that those left behind when someone dies are unhappy and feel their loved one's life was cut short, although it happens to many at any age including before birth. The grief of loss from this side is real.
We really don't know if the ones who die - move on - feel deprived. A common theme in near death experiences is little or no interest in "going back." Gratitude or resentment may both be irrelevant from the post death viewpoint.
As to quote: certainly be accountable for his actions, and I suspect he may well have to explain himself to those whose earthly lives he cut short
it's all speculative. If you can speculate resentment, I can speculate so overwhelmed with wonder that they don't even think to resent.
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: quote: Originally posted by Teilhard: That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...
But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...
a lot of people are jumping from depression to violence rather casually,...
I'm seeing jumping not from depression to violence, but from a class of antidepressant drugs to violence. here's an old article saying "some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior."
The link between SSRIs and homicidal violence comes up with each school shooting - not depression and violence, but SSRI drugs and violence. Maybe we need a better way to help with depression.
That's interesting. I just meant that no professional that I'm aware of, has established a link between depression and this murder-suicide. The tabloid press are running with it, mainly to sell newspapers, I suppose.
The *link* is being discussed because it appears to be the most likely explanation ... i.e., anyone who would do what the co-pilot apparently did must have been *crazy* ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.
Yes ... But in the individual now undergoing this public psychological autopsy, there appears -- appears -- to have been a deadly combination of severe major personality disorder with anxiety and depression ... hence the discussion ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
@quetzalcoatl That assumes the diagnostics are any good at all, and also can't deal with the very low base rates, i.e., some proportion of people who perpetrate a very low probability event like murder-suicide have some particular diagnosis. This says nothing whatever about anyone with such a diagnosis.
The risk factors which better explain such incidents are demographic, notwithstanding that we have no real ability to predict specific behaviour: male, young, relationship difficulties or isolation, defective impulsive control, not optimistic about the future, some history of violence - either doing, receiving or both.
Substance abuse, thought disorder, depression, anxiety, and various other elements of diagnosis possibly may help. But having been both stoned and drunk myself, and never having been violent, the causation is not clear**. As for mood disorders and thought disorders, there is an association, but this says nil about cause. Just about everything about human characteristics correlates positively with everything else.
**Some of us think more substance abuse might help some people, particularly politicians, to be less violent, but that's riffing Timothy Leary. Perhaps yoga or tai chi would be better choices and more fitting with current fashions.
edit: @Teilhard This starts to read as a "just so" story doesn't it. [ 30. March 2015, 19:58: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
No prophet's flag
Thanks for that, very useful.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.
As you say, you are guessing that it was murder-suicide. My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence. Suicide is often described as "selfish" by those who have no experience of mental ill-health and I suggest that Lubnitz's death is not qualitatively different from somebody throwing themselves under a train, thus traumatising the driver and inconveniencing 100's on the train and all others affected by the closure of the line. When one is in a state where death appears to be the only viable option, thinking about the impact on other people is not meaningful.
-------------------- "Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by JoannaP: quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.
As you say, you are guessing that it was murder-suicide. My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence. Suicide is often described as "selfish" by those who have no experience of mental ill-health and I suggest that Lubnitz's death is not qualitatively different from somebody throwing themselves under a train, thus traumatising the driver and inconveniencing 100's on the train and all others affected by the closure of the line. When one is in a state where death appears to be the only viable option, thinking about the impact on other people is not meaningful.
Very good point. It's not necessarily an aggressive act.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.
Some depressive states are psychotic and this often combines with suicide attempts, ime, though I've no idea if murder-suicide is also a feature as it is relatively rare. But, as speculated, we may never know the truth of this terrible situation.
-------------------- 'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams Dog Activity Monitor My shop
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: @quetzalcoatl That assumes the diagnostics are any good at all, and also can't deal with the very low base rates, i.e., some proportion of people who perpetrate a very low probability event like murder-suicide have some particular diagnosis. This says nothing whatever about anyone with such a diagnosis.
The risk factors which better explain such incidents are demographic, notwithstanding that we have no real ability to predict specific behaviour: male, young, relationship difficulties or isolation, defective impulsive control, not optimistic about the future, some history of violence - either doing, receiving or both.
Substance abuse, thought disorder, depression, anxiety, and various other elements of diagnosis possibly may help. But having been both stoned and drunk myself, and never having been violent, the causation is not clear**. As for mood disorders and thought disorders, there is an association, but this says nil about cause. Just about everything about human characteristics correlates positively with everything else.
**Some of us think more substance abuse might help some people, particularly politicians, to be less violent, but that's riffing Timothy Leary. Perhaps yoga or tai chi would be better choices and more fitting with current fashions.
edit: @Teilhard This starts to read as a "just so" story doesn't it.
It certainly gets to be a subset of the story, "If Everybody Took Their Prescribed Meds, Life Would Be All Roses And Cherries" ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I was thinking that events like this are so rare and unpredictable, that there is a kind of hysterical reaction in the press and elsewhere, to fill the meaning gap, as it were. It must be meaningful, it must be predictive, we must be able to understand it. Hence the banner headlines, madman in cockpit, history of depression, and so on.
You can see the same with conspiracy theories, 9/11 was caused by Zionists, Kennedy was assassinated by a right-wing cabal; meaning, for God's sake, give me some meaning, I'm starved of it, even if it's invented.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by JoannaP: quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.
As you say, you are guessing that it was murder-suicide. My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence. Suicide is often described as "selfish" by those who have no experience of mental ill-health and I suggest that Lubnitz's death is not qualitatively different from somebody throwing themselves under a train, thus traumatising the driver and inconveniencing 100's on the train and all others affected by the closure of the line. When one is in a state where death appears to be the only viable option, thinking about the impact on other people is not meaningful.
One of the standard features of an interview with a patient or client who may be suicidal is to ask the question, "Who do you think would find you ... ??? What would that person feel ... ???"
But, yes, indeed, suicidal thoughts and feelings are often decidedly self-centered to the point of being delusional regarding the impact of the suicide on others ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by JoannaP: My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence.
Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?
If not, why not? What's the difference?
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re suicide and suicidal depression being selfish:
It's like having a terrible headache that isn't responding to any remedy, and wanting to do *anything* to get rid of it. You're turned in on yourself and not thinking clearly (if at all) because that's all you can do.
NOT that suicide is a good or wise method of pain relief--just that some people use it.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: Re suicide and suicidal depression being selfish:
It's like having a terrible headache that isn't responding to any remedy, and wanting to do *anything* to get rid of it. You're turned in on yourself and not thinking clearly (if at all) because that's all you can do.
NOT that suicide is a good or wise method of pain relief--just that some people use it.
Suicide is often a permanent solution to a severe distress that is temporary ... Almost always, the terrible situation will improve in the future ...
So one of the tasks for those of us who are caregivers is a *dicey* one -- help the sufferer consider *hanging*in*there* without hanging her/him self ... just yet ... but without shaming the person for her/his despair or even forbidding suicide as a "live" option in the future ...
"But just for now ... for a while ... give 'life' a chance for a while longer ... and I will promise to help you..."
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?
If not, why not? What's the difference?
Pre-meditation. If it turns out the co-pilot had planned his actions and it wasn't just an impulse, then you're right - there's not much difference between him and a bomber. It'd also be comparable to one of the U.S. school shootings.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I heard, long before this happened, that if people who have been on anti-depressants stop taking them abruptly, they may commit acts of violence.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
More usually, they will just feel like crap. You could say the same about someone who just got dumped, or fired, or failed their exams. It happens, but it is rare. And it may not be the most salient factor in this situation - as yet we lack information to know.
We currently have a bad collective case of diagnostic overshadowing.
I note in the press coverage it reported this man was "teased" at work, whilst we are throwing extra bodies into cockpits across the world at 24 hrs notice, there has been a world of silence on how staff treat each other.
If you look at mass killings across the world, about which we have any information on the killers thoughts, a sense of persecution is often prominent. Sometimes it is psychotic - but often these were people who were 'teased' for being different in some way regardless.
Perhaps we would all be safer if we stopped doing that. [ 30. March 2015, 22:40: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by JoannaP: My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence.
Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?
If not, why not? What's the difference?
It would depend on the intention. I can understand crashing a plane being the obvious way for a pilot to kill himself. I am not sure that there are people for whom the easiest, most convenient means of death is strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded place (unless they are pretending to be terrorists while really just looking for a way to die - but that seems a tad unlikely).
quote: Originally posted by Teilhard: It certainly gets to be a subset of the story, "If Everybody Took Their Prescribed Meds, Life Would Be All Roses And Cherries" ...
Is there any evidence that he was not taking his meds? It could be that he was and they were not very effective for him.
-------------------- "Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Hiro's Leap: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?
If not, why not? What's the difference?
Pre-meditation. If it turns out the co-pilot had planned his actions and it wasn't just an impulse, then you're right - there's not much difference between him and a bomber. It'd also be comparable to one of the U.S. school shootings.
Yes, it's possible that he intensely wanted to die, and wasn't interested in the others, but also possible that he did want to kill them also. Will we ever know? I guess they are hoping to find a diary a la Breivik.
I suppose most suicide bombers also anticipate publicity and justification by their group. Breivik did his own publicity, and didn't kill himself. In fact, Breivik actually smirked in court, rather chilling to see - and declared sane, of course.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: JoannaP: Suicide is often described as "selfish" by those who have no experience of mental ill-health and I suggest that Lubnitz's death is not qualitatively different from somebody throwing themselves under a train, thus traumatising the driver and inconveniencing 100's on the train and all others affected by the closure of the line.
It does make a difference to the 149 people who died. I'm not buying that it didn't make a difference to the co-pilot either. I don't think that suicide is often a sudden impulse: there's a whole build-up to it. He could have killed himself in a million other ways, but he chose to do it taking 149 people with him. He must have done this for a reason, even if it's a madman's reason. In fact, he has said things before (to his ex-girlfriend?) that hinted at this.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: meaning, for God's sake, give me some meaning, I'm starved of it, even if it's invented.
People sometimes do unpredictable things. They may even surprise themselves. -- I don't think there's much more. Unless you want things as credible as 'the devil made them do it'.
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?
If not, why not? What's the difference?
An ideology.
quote: Originally posted by Moo: I heard, long before this happened, that if people who have been on anti-depressants stop taking them abruptly, they may commit acts of violence.
Moo
Could be. I hear more about people who are very depressed and then start to feel better, gain energy and the wherewithal to formulate a plan and carry it off. Thus the initial feeling better isn't really feeling better, it's more in the behavioural and cognitive realms. With the emotional aspects taking longer.
There is negative physical response to suddenly stopping many anti-depressants; not sure about a database which shows violence as a result of sudden stopping.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I am very concerned that so many people are now labelling anyone with a mental illness as a danger to others and more than likely to commit suicide. There is no real evidence that the plane accident was due to suicide - we only surmise that this was so. The pilot could have suffered a heart attack or maybe an aneurysm and lost consciousness. Any person who now has a diagnosed mental illness will quite justifiably be frightened to reveal this to anybody, particularly employers, for fear that they will no longer be able to: fly a plane, drive a bus, drive a car, ride a bike, get married, hold any job etc. Can we all stop contributing to the finger pointing and maybe give thanks that "there for the grace of God go I".
-------------------- "My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
To repeat myself: the cockpit voice recorder evidence is that the co-pilot incited the pilot to leave the cockpit by spontaneously and actively suggesting that he go to the toilet, and that once the door was locked he engaged a steady descent.
If that doesn't constitute evidence of premeditated suicide - and it ignores the more speculative elements being thrown around - then I don't know what does.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Couple of things:
--Re suicide being a permanent fix to a temporary problem: When comedienne Joan Rivers' husband Edgar killed himself, their daughter said he'd told *her* that, and she said "why couldn't he remember that?"
--Re Teilhard's scenario of trying to get the person to hang on a little longer, you can kill yourself later if you need to, and I'll try to help you get through this: speaking as someone who spent (past tense) a lot of time in suicidal depression, you need to make absolutely sure that you don't fake any of that. There mustn't be the least whiff of "it's not that bad" or "when you feel better, you'll see it's not that bad". You'll lose credibility--as you should. Sometimes, it really IS that bad in reality. And it's always that bad in the person's head--which is where they live.
--Re meds: IANAD, but wrong meds and wrong dosage can make you worse; and going off meds can make your worse. Plus, IME, non-psych meds can have a psych effect. It's all very complicated. Each person's biochemistry is different. Some of us are prone to rare reactions, like the small print on a prescription package insert.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by JoannaP: When one is in a state where death appears to be the only viable option, thinking about the impact on other people is not meaningful.
If you are in a rational, or semi-rational, state where death appears to be the only viable option, then it's absolutely meaningful to consider the other people. (And I don't think this requires empathy. You can consider that killing people is wrong as an intellectual statement without needing to emote over it.)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: Could be. I hear more about people who are very depressed and then start to feel better, gain energy and the wherewithal to formulate a plan and carry it off. Thus the initial feeling better isn't really feeling better, it's more in the behavioural and cognitive realms. With the emotional aspects taking longer.
When I worked in psychiatry as a student nurse we were told that often depressives lack the motivation when they are in a very dark place, it was when they start to recover that they make the decision to commit suicide. I remember a lovely kind man recovering from depression who absented himself and went and stood in front of a train.
I'm certainly not judging those with mental illness. I have bipolar disorder and have experienced psychosis in the past, though my own presentation means I would be have been more likely to kill myself by accident whilst manic than by suicide when depressed (I have never experienced suicidal depression, I tend towards mania). Same result in the end though. Thankfully, I am very well controlled and have been for well over a decade.
-------------------- 'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams Dog Activity Monitor My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist: quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: Could be. I hear more about people who are very depressed and then start to feel better, gain energy and the wherewithal to formulate a plan and carry it off. Thus the initial feeling better isn't really feeling better, it's more in the behavioural and cognitive realms. With the emotional aspects taking longer.
When I worked in psychiatry as a student nurse we were told that often depressives lack the motivation when they are in a very dark place, it was when they start to recover that they make the decision to commit suicide. I remember a lovely kind man recovering from depression who absented himself and went and stood in front of a train.
I'm certainly not judging those with mental illness. I have bipolar disorder and have experienced psychosis in the past, though my own presentation means I would be have been more likely to kill myself by accident whilst manic than by suicide when depressed (I have never experienced suicidal depression, I tend towards mania). Same result in the end though. Thankfully, I am very well controlled and have been for well over a decade.
That's quite common in therapy, not suicide fortunately, but when people start to feel a bit better, they may suddenly sabotage it. If you are prepared for the possibility, you can point it out to the client, which may or may not work. I think some people are reluctant to give up their misery. But we can't really apply this to Lubitz.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by bib: I am very concerned that so many people are now labelling anyone with a mental illness as a danger to others and more than likely to commit suicide.
Are you talking about people on the ship? If so, I have not noticed anyone saying that all the mentally ill are dangerous. I have also not encountered it in the media.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: Couple of things:
--Re suicide being a permanent fix to a temporary problem: When comedienne Joan Rivers' husband Edgar killed himself, their daughter said he'd told *her* that, and she said "why couldn't he remember that?"
--Re Teilhard's scenario of trying to get the person to hang on a little longer, you can kill yourself later if you need to, and I'll try to help you get through this: speaking as someone who spent (past tense) a lot of time in suicidal depression, you need to make absolutely sure that you don't fake any of that. There mustn't be the least whiff of "it's not that bad" or "when you feel better, you'll see it's not that bad". You'll lose credibility--as you should. Sometimes, it really IS that bad in reality. And it's always that bad in the person's head--which is where they live.
--Re meds: IANAD, but wrong meds and wrong dosage can make you worse; and going off meds can make your worse. Plus, IME, non-psych meds can have a psych effect. It's all very complicated. Each person's biochemistry is different. Some of us are prone to rare reactions, like the small print on a prescription package insert.
Helping a suicidal client/patient can be *tricky* ... If (s)he feels and has come to believe that "suicide is the only viable option left ... and the world, my family, would be better off without me ..." Simply trying to forbid suicide may only increase her/his despair ...
So a common approach -- the one I have taken with clients/patients/congregants -- is to be the counselor for that person only if/when (s)he signs a contract -- with ME -- agreeing not to commit suicide while under MY care ...
From that point on, (s)he and I can work together on saving and healing her/his life and soul ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Hiro's Leap: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?
If not, why not? What's the difference?
Pre-meditation. If it turns out the co-pilot had planned his actions and it wasn't just an impulse, then you're right - there's not much difference between him and a bomber. It'd also be comparable to one of the U.S. school shootings.
Well that's the thing, isn't it. I fail to see how convincing the pilot to leave the cockpit, locking the door and putting the plane into a fatal descent while ignoring the banging at the door and screams of the other people on the plane who didn't want to die counts as anything other than a deliberate, conscious and premeditated act. Whatever his personal motivations were, he must have been able to hear those screams, to know that there were 150 people behind him who didn't want to die, and to decide to kill them anyway.
The absolute best-case explanation I can come up with is that he saw them as collateral damage in his mission to rid the world of himself. But that's still not enough to get him out of the "evil mass murderer" category in my book.
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Sorry to be late getting back to you, Belle Ringer. I'm not saying that the 149 necessarily resent being whisked away from this world. But they will very probably want to understand why it happened. Lubnitz will also, of course, need to explain himself to God.
-------------------- 'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: I was thinking that events like this are so rare and unpredictable,
They are, IMO, like mass shootings. Though shocking, they are rare and statistically insignificant, but indicative of a greater problem. Though unpredictable? Not sure I agree. It would appear that psychiatrists had a pretty good indication that suitability to fly was questionable, but were not in the legal position to relay the information. [ 31. March 2015, 17:56: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: I was thinking that events like this are so rare and unpredictable,
They are, IMO, like mass shootings. Though shocking, they are rare and statistically insignificant, but indicative of a greater problem. Though unpredictable? Not sure I agree. It would appear that psychiatrists had a pretty good indication that suitability to fly was questionable, but were not in the legal position to relay the information.
I think there was a suggestion of screening students for possible assailants in the US, but there are very few parameters, maybe young men who feel alienated, which probably amounts to several million.
I don't think Lubitz's actions could be predicted.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Not predictable in the he will do that sense, but ISTM fairly much in the he is capable of sense. There are many calls of don't stigmatise and I agree. This does not mean there should be not be a better attempt at assessment. Some people should not be in position to affect so many lives. Lubitz was definitely one. That is not a question. The question is whether this could have been avoided and, from what I have read thus far, it appears the system failed. There can be no complete failsafe system, but this does not mean we cannot do better.
To make my position clear, it echoes that of Mind quote: Clearly assessment of all pilots’ physical and mental health is entirely appropriate - but assumptions about risk shouldn't be made across the board for people with depression, or any other illness. There will be pilots with experience of depression who have flown safely for decades, and assessments should be made on a case by case basis.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: quote: Originally posted by stonespring: if it is his/her turn to exit the plot, s/he gets to "go out like a badass"
Like Samson?
The analogy might be better if the plane had been filled with the pilot's enemies, who had captured him and imprisoned him within it.
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: Not predictable in the he will do that sense, but ISTM fairly much in the he is capable of sense. There are many calls of don't stigmatise and I agree. This does not mean there should be not be a better attempt at assessment. Some people should not be in position to affect so many lives. Lubitz was definitely one. That is not a question. The question is whether this could have been avoided and, from what I have read thus far, it appears the system failed. There can be no complete failsafe system, but this does not mean we cannot do better.
To make my position clear, it echoes that of Mind quote: Clearly assessment of all pilots’ physical and mental health is entirely appropriate - but assumptions about risk shouldn't be made across the board for people with depression, or any other illness. There will be pilots with experience of depression who have flown safely for decades, and assessments should be made on a case by case basis.
Yes, that sounds OK. Some people seem to be saying that anyone who has been depressed, should not fly planes. I find that puzzling, as at the moment there is no evidence that depression caused his actions; and secondly, I don't think there are any predictions between depression and mass murder, (if that's what it is).
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Fr Weber: quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: quote: Originally posted by stonespring: if it is his/her turn to exit the plot, s/he gets to "go out like a badass"
Like Samson?
The analogy might be better if the plane had been filled with the pilot's enemies, who had captured him and imprisoned him within it.
As an analogy, it would only work if that had been the case. Otherwise, it's completely irrelevant and false.
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
How exactly is a person who crashes a plane full of people* causing inevitable death and carnage more of a victim and less of a monster than the mass murderer who picks up victims on the street? Is there something about the moment of the decision vs the repeated moments of the serial killer? What if the serial killer was somehow mentally ill at the time, does that make a difference?
*assuming the usual disclaimer that we don't know all of the facts in this case yet. The moral point is still relevant.
-------------------- arse
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rufiki
Ship's 'shroom
# 11165
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: Not predictable in the he will do that sense, but ISTM fairly much in the he is capable of sense. There are many calls of don't stigmatise and I agree. This does not mean there should be not be a better attempt at assessment. Some people should not be in position to affect so many lives. Lubitz was definitely one. That is not a question. The question is whether this could have been avoided and, from what I have read thus far, it appears the system failed. There can be no complete failsafe system, but this does not mean we cannot do better.
To make my position clear, it echoes that of Mind quote: Clearly assessment of all pilots’ physical and mental health is entirely appropriate - but assumptions about risk shouldn't be made across the board for people with depression, or any other illness. There will be pilots with experience of depression who have flown safely for decades, and assessments should be made on a case by case basis.
The Atlantic has gathered together some pilots' letters on the disaster. One point made (letter 2) is that the medical assessment is "virtually entirely adversarial", designed to give a binary answer to whether the person is fit to fly. They argue that this gives pilots who have problems an incentive to not seek help, and that a much better system would be aimed at managing health issues "to allow pilots to fly safely with as many medical issues as possible."
Others argue that 630 hours is simply insufficient experience. [ 01. April 2015, 08:28: Message edited by: rufiki ]
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: How exactly is a person who crashes a plane full of people* causing inevitable death and carnage more of a victim and less of a monster than the mass murderer who picks up victims on the street? Is there something about the moment of the decision vs the repeated moments of the serial killer? What if the serial killer was somehow mentally ill at the time, does that make a difference?
*assuming the usual disclaimer that we don't know all of the facts in this case yet. The moral point is still relevant.
Does that make a difference to what? In some jurisdictions, mental illness could lead to a claim of diminished responsibility, but it's striking that, for example, Breivik was declared sane. If you mean morally, people have different views on that, don't they? To me, Breivik looked as mad as a hatter, but you could still label that evil. Many people saw the Yorkshire Ripper as evil, although he was supposedly a paranoid schizophrenic, and ended up in Broadmoor.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: rufiki:The Atlantic has gathered together some pilots' letters on the disaster. One point made (letter 2) is that the medical assessment is "virtually entirely adversarial", designed to give a binary answer to whether the person is fit to fly. They argue that this gives pilots who have problems an incentive to not seek help, and that a much better system would be aimed at managing health issues "to allow pilots to fly safely with as many medical issues as possible."
Others argue that 630 hours is simply insufficient experience.
Dutch newspapers pointed to the short turnaround times for low budget airliners as an additional stress factor for pilots.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yeah, I wondered about the co-pilot's low number of flying hours. (I presume that's in commercial craft.) The pilot had something like ten times as much flight time.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: Yeah, I wondered about the co-pilot's low number of flying hours. (I presume that's in commercial craft.) The pilot had something like ten times as much flight time.
How is one supposed to get to a high number of flying hours if not via a sequence of lower numbers?
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think you can build up your hours by working as an instructor, working privately for hire, working for small regional companies, and other small jobs, even crop-dusting.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
I stumbled across this article, suggesting that what has been presented as fact in this case is not the full story. .
It seems to suggest there were eyewitnesses whose accounts disagree with the now accepted narrative: quote: scant media coverage has been given to the eyewitnesses who heard an explosion and saw smoke coming out of the plane shortly before it crashed. A helicopter pilot in the French Air Force based in Orange, 30 minutes away from the site of the crash, said that the French Air Force had received a number of corroborating witness testimonies on this point. He also confirmed that debris was found upstream from the crash site - which he said confirmed the fact that the piece of fuselage had "been detached from the aircraft before impact".
Also, they seem to be suggesting that the whole thing about the co-pilot's respiration being audible on the black-box is unlikely: quote: One of the major pieces of data used to justify the "suicide pilot" story comes from the alleged CVR recording where, we are told, Lubitz's 'breath' can be heard. This claim has been directly contested by Gerard Arnoux, an 18-year Air France captain and spokesperson for the national monitoring committee on aviation safety, who appeared on 'Le Grande Journal' two days after the crash. Arnoux stated that there were three errors in the official story:
1) It is not possible to hear a pilot's breath on the CVR. Arnoux states that the cockpit of 1st generation A320s are very noisy, so much so that, in flight, pilots had to use headsets to speak to each other. The idea that the CVR could pick up Lubitz's breath with so much ambient noise is not possible, according to Arnoux.
2) The official story claims that investigators heard the 'beep' of the knob that Lubitz used to start the plane on its descent. Arnoux states categorically that this knob makes no sound.
3) Arnoux also wonders why no mention was made by investigators of hearing the loud strident beeping made by the cockpit door console when the emergency access code is entered to open the cockpit door. Arnoux recognizes that the emergency unlock code could have been overridden by someone in the cockpit manually holding the lock button down, but this would not have prevented the beeping once the code was entered outside. This would have been the clearest confirmation that one of the pilots had been locked out. Yet no mention was made of it. Instead, we are asked to accept the word of those privy to the CVR that someone was "banging on the door" and shouting "open the damn door". And with all that ambient noise in the cockpit too. They must have very good hearing.
Whatever the truth of it, Lubitz's family and friends must be beside themselves, I hope they are getting the support they need.
-------------------- "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by luvanddaisies: I stumbled across this article, suggesting that what has been presented as fact in this case is not the full story. .
It seems to suggest there were eyewitnesses whose accounts disagree with the now accepted narrative: quote: scant media coverage has been given to the eyewitnesses who heard an explosion and saw smoke coming out of the plane shortly before it crashed. A helicopter pilot in the French Air Force based in Orange, 30 minutes away from the site of the crash, said that the French Air Force had received a number of corroborating witness testimonies on this point. He also confirmed that debris was found upstream from the crash site - which he said confirmed the fact that the piece of fuselage had "been detached from the aircraft before impact".
Also, they seem to be suggesting that the whole thing about the co-pilot's respiration being audible on the black-box is unlikely: quote: One of the major pieces of data used to justify the "suicide pilot" story comes from the alleged CVR recording where, we are told, Lubitz's 'breath' can be heard. This claim has been directly contested by Gerard Arnoux, an 18-year Air France captain and spokesperson for the national monitoring committee on aviation safety, who appeared on 'Le Grande Journal' two days after the crash. Arnoux stated that there were three errors in the official story:
1) It is not possible to hear a pilot's breath on the CVR. Arnoux states that the cockpit of 1st generation A320s are very noisy, so much so that, in flight, pilots had to use headsets to speak to each other. The idea that the CVR could pick up Lubitz's breath with so much ambient noise is not possible, according to Arnoux.
2) The official story claims that investigators heard the 'beep' of the knob that Lubitz used to start the plane on its descent. Arnoux states categorically that this knob makes no sound.
3) Arnoux also wonders why no mention was made by investigators of hearing the loud strident beeping made by the cockpit door console when the emergency access code is entered to open the cockpit door. Arnoux recognizes that the emergency unlock code could have been overridden by someone in the cockpit manually holding the lock button down, but this would not have prevented the beeping once the code was entered outside. This would have been the clearest confirmation that one of the pilots had been locked out. Yet no mention was made of it. Instead, we are asked to accept the word of those privy to the CVR that someone was "banging on the door" and shouting "open the damn door". And with all that ambient noise in the cockpit too. They must have very good hearing.
Whatever the truth of it, Lubitz's family and friends must be beside themselves, I hope they are getting the support they need.
Are you proposing sott.net as a reputable source?? It seems to be operating in the David Icke spectrum to me in all honesty...
-------------------- And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
It's not a site I've ever been aware of before, it's a link from a link from a link found in idle wandering - perhaps I should have added a caveat about not being sure of the provenance. The article doesn't seem beyond plausible though - and it is, if nothing else, a reminder that the investigation has not reported its findings, yet the media has been reporting as though it has.
-------------------- "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
This is going to be a problem, that already conspiracy theorists are gathering like vultures, although this is not necessarily one of them. It's astonishing also how many experts on depression and mental illness are blossoming. Who knew that the Daily Mail offered training courses in psychiatry! I think also that some people are looking for patterns, and there may not be any.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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