Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Teilhard:
That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...

But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...

---

a lot of people are jumping from depression to violence rather casually,...

---

I'm seeing jumping not from depression to violence, but from a class of antidepressant drugs to violence. here's an old article saying "some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior."

The link between SSRIs and homicidal violence comes up with each school shooting - not depression and violence, but SSRI drugs and violence. Maybe we need a better way to help with depression.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eirenist:
Belle Ringer: I hope none of the 149 passengers and crew are suffering;I would like to think that Lubitz is not suffering, though he may, now, be remorseful. But he will certainly be accountable for his actions, and I suspect he may well have to explain himself to those whose earthly lives he cut short (particularly the schoolchildren). Or do you think they should be grateful to him, for removing them from this vale of tears, and their families and friends?

---

quote:

---

certainly be accountable for his actions, and I suspect he may well have to explain himself to those whose earthly lives he cut short

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Teilhard:
That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...

But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...

---

a lot of people are jumping from depression to violence rather casually,...

---

I'm seeing jumping not from depression to violence, but from a class of antidepressant drugs to violence. here's an old article saying "some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior."

The link between SSRIs and homicidal violence comes up with each school shooting - not depression and violence, but SSRI drugs and violence. Maybe we need a better way to help with depression.

---

That's interesting. I just meant that no professional that I'm aware of, has established a link between depression and this murder-suicide. The tabloid press are running with it, mainly to sell newspapers, I suppose.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.

---

As you say, you are guessing that it was murder-suicide. My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence. Suicide is often described as "selfish" by those who have no experience of mental ill-health and I suggest that Lubnitz's death is not qualitatively different from somebody throwing themselves under a train, thus traumatising the driver and inconveniencing 100's on the train and all others affected by the closure of the line. When one is in a state where death appears to be the only viable option, thinking about the impact on other people is not meaningful.

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
@quetzalcoatl
That assumes the diagnostics are any good at all, and also can't deal with the very low base rates, i.e., some proportion of people who perpetrate a very low probability event like murder-suicide have some particular diagnosis. This says nothing whatever about anyone with such a diagnosis.

The risk factors which better explain such incidents are demographic, notwithstanding that we have no real ability to predict specific behaviour: male, young, relationship difficulties or isolation, defective impulsive control, not optimistic about the future, some history of violence - either doing, receiving or both.

Substance abuse, thought disorder, depression, anxiety, and various other elements of diagnosis possibly may help. But having been both stoned and drunk myself, and never having been violent, the causation is not clear**. As for mood disorders and thought disorders, there is an association, but this says nil about cause. Just about everything about human characteristics correlates positively with everything else.


**Some of us think more substance abuse might help some people, particularly politicians, to be less violent, but that's riffing Timothy Leary. Perhaps yoga or tai chi would be better choices and more fitting with current fashions.

edit:
@Teilhard
This starts to read as a "just so" story doesn't it.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Don't agree. Murder-suicide connects more readily with a personality disorder than depression. Some mass murders likewise. But we are still talking guesswork, but that never inhibits the tabloids.

---

As you say, you are guessing that it was murder-suicide. My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence. Suicide is often described as "selfish" by those who have no experience of mental ill-health and I suggest that Lubnitz's death is not qualitatively different from somebody throwing themselves under a train, thus traumatising the driver and inconveniencing 100's on the train and all others affected by the closure of the line. When one is in a state where death appears to be the only viable option, thinking about the impact on other people is not meaningful.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:
My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re suicide and suicidal depression being selfish:

It's like having a terrible headache that isn't responding to any remedy, and wanting to do *anything* to get rid of it. You're turned in on yourself and not thinking clearly (if at all) because that's all you can do.

NOT that suicide is a good or wise method of pain relief--just that some people use it.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?

If not, why not? What's the difference?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:
My guess is that it was a suicide which killed 149 other people as an unwanted but unavoidable consequence.

---

Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?

If not, why not? What's the difference?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Teilhard:
It certainly gets to be a subset of the story, "If Everybody Took Their Prescribed Meds, Life Would Be All Roses And Cherries" ...

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?

If not, why not? What's the difference?

---

Pre-meditation. If it turns out the co-pilot had planned his actions and it wasn't just an impulse, then you're right - there's not much difference between him and a bomber. It'd also be comparable to one of the U.S. school shootings.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

JoannaP: Suicide is often described as "selfish" by those who have no experience of mental ill-health and I suggest that Lubnitz's death is not qualitatively different from somebody throwing themselves under a train, thus traumatising the driver and inconveniencing 100's on the train and all others affected by the closure of the line.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
meaning, for God's sake, give me some meaning, I'm starved of it, even if it's invented.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?

If not, why not? What's the difference?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
I heard, long before this happened, that if people
who have been on anti-depressants stop taking them abruptly, they may commit acts of violence.

Moo

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:
When one is in a state where death appears to be the only viable option, thinking about the impact on other people is not meaningful.

---

Posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Could be. I hear more about people who are very depressed and then start to feel better, gain energy and the wherewithal to formulate a plan and carry it off. Thus the initial feeling better isn't really feeling better, it's more in the behavioural and cognitive realms. With the emotional aspects taking longer.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Could be. I hear more about people who are very depressed and then start to feel better, gain energy and the wherewithal to formulate a plan and carry it off. Thus the initial feeling better isn't really feeling better, it's more in the behavioural and cognitive realms. With the emotional aspects taking longer.

---

When I worked in psychiatry as a student nurse we were told that often depressives lack the motivation when they are in a very dark place, it was when they start to recover that they make the decision to commit suicide. I remember a lovely kind man recovering from depression who absented himself and went and stood in front of a train.

I'm certainly not judging those with mental illness. I have bipolar disorder and have experienced psychosis in the past, though my own presentation means I would be have been more likely to kill myself by accident whilst manic than by suicide when depressed (I have never experienced suicidal depression, I tend towards mania). Same result in the end though. Thankfully, I am very well controlled and have been for well over a decade.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by bib:
I am very concerned that so many people are now labelling anyone with a mental illness as a danger to others and more than likely to commit suicide.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Couple of things:

--Re suicide being a permanent fix to a temporary problem: When comedienne Joan Rivers' husband Edgar killed himself, their daughter said he'd told *her* that, and she said "why couldn't he remember that?"

--Re Teilhard's scenario of trying to get the person to hang on a little longer, you can kill yourself later if you need to, and I'll try to help you get through this: speaking as someone who spent (past tense) a lot of time in suicidal depression, you need to make absolutely sure that you don't fake any of that. There mustn't be the least whiff of "it's not that bad" or "when you feel better, you'll see it's not that bad". You'll lose credibility--as you should. Sometimes, it really IS that bad in reality. And it's always that bad in the person's head--which is where they live.

--Re meds: IANAD, but wrong meds and wrong dosage can make you worse; and going off meds can make your worse. Plus, IME, non-psych meds can have a psych effect. It's all very complicated. Each person's biochemistry is different. Some of us are prone to rare reactions, like the small print on a prescription package insert.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Would you say the same of someone who commits suicide by strapping a bomb to their chest and detonating it in a crowded market place?

If not, why not? What's the difference?

---

Pre-meditation. If it turns out the co-pilot had planned his actions and it wasn't just an impulse, then you're right - there's not much difference between him and a bomber. It'd also be comparable to one of the U.S. school shootings.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was thinking that events like this are so rare and unpredictable,

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was thinking that events like this are so rare and unpredictable,

---

They are, IMO, like mass shootings. Though shocking, they are rare and statistically insignificant, but indicative of a greater problem.
Though unpredictable? Not sure I agree. It would appear that psychiatrists had a pretty good indication that suitability to fly was questionable, but were not in the legal position to relay the information.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Clearly assessment of all pilots’ physical and mental health is entirely appropriate - but assumptions about risk shouldn't be made across the board for people with depression, or any other illness. There will be pilots with experience of depression who have flown safely for decades, and assessments should be made on a case by case basis.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by stonespring:
if it is his/her turn to exit the plot, s/he gets to "go out like a badass"

---

Like Samson?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Not predictable in the he will do that sense, but ISTM fairly much in the he is capable of sense.
There are many calls of don't stigmatise and I agree. This does not mean there should be not be a better attempt at assessment. Some people should not be in position to affect so many lives. Lubitz was definitely one. That is not a question. The question is whether this could have been avoided and, from what I have read thus far, it appears the system failed.
There can be no complete failsafe system, but this does not mean we cannot do better.

To make my position clear, it echoes that of Mind

quote:

---

Clearly assessment of all pilots’ physical and mental health is entirely appropriate - but assumptions about risk shouldn't be made across the board for people with depression, or any other illness. There will be pilots with experience of depression who have flown safely for decades, and assessments should be made on a case by case basis.

---

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by stonespring:
if it is his/her turn to exit the plot, s/he gets to "go out like a badass"

---

Like Samson?

---

The analogy might be better if the plane had been filled with the pilot's enemies, who had captured him and imprisoned him within it.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Not predictable in the he will do that sense, but ISTM fairly much in the he is capable of sense.
There are many calls of don't stigmatise and I agree. This does not mean there should be not be a better attempt at assessment. Some people should not be in position to affect so many lives. Lubitz was definitely one. That is not a question. The question is whether this could have been avoided and, from what I have read thus far, it appears the system failed.
There can be no complete failsafe system, but this does not mean we cannot do better.

To make my position clear, it echoes that of Mind

quote:

---

Clearly assessment of all pilots’ physical and mental health is entirely appropriate - but assumptions about risk shouldn't be made across the board for people with depression, or any other illness. There will be pilots with experience of depression who have flown safely for decades, and assessments should be made on a case by case basis.

---

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
How exactly is a person who crashes a plane full of people* causing inevitable death and carnage more of a victim and less of a monster than the mass murderer who picks up victims on the street? Is there something about the moment of the decision vs the repeated moments of the serial killer? What if the serial killer was somehow mentally ill at the time, does that make a difference?

*assuming the usual disclaimer that we don't know all of the facts in this case yet. The moral point is still relevant.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

rufiki:The Atlantic has gathered together some pilots' letters on the disaster. One point made (letter 2) is that the medical assessment is "virtually entirely adversarial", designed to give a binary answer to whether the person is fit to fly. They argue that this gives pilots who have problems an incentive to not seek help, and that a much better system would be aimed at managing health issues "to allow pilots to fly safely with as many medical issues as possible."

Others argue that 630 hours is simply insufficient experience.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Yeah, I wondered about the co-pilot's low number of flying hours. (I presume that's in commercial craft.) The pilot had something like ten times as much flight time.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

scant media coverage has been given to the eyewitnesses who heard an explosion and saw smoke coming out of the plane shortly before it crashed. A helicopter pilot in the French Air Force based in Orange, 30 minutes away from the site of the crash, said that the French Air Force had received a number of corroborating witness testimonies on this point. He also confirmed that debris was found upstream from the crash site - which he said confirmed the fact that the piece of fuselage had "been detached from the aircraft before impact".

---

quote:

---

One of the major pieces of data used to justify the "suicide pilot" story comes from the alleged CVR recording where, we are told, Lubitz's 'breath' can be heard. This claim has been directly contested by Gerard Arnoux, an 18-year Air France captain and spokesperson for the national monitoring committee on aviation safety, who appeared on 'Le Grande Journal' two days after the crash. Arnoux stated that there were three errors in the official story:

1) It is not possible to hear a pilot's breath on the CVR. Arnoux states that the cockpit of 1st generation A320s are very noisy, so much so that, in flight, pilots had to use headsets to speak to each other. The idea that the CVR could pick up Lubitz's breath with so much ambient noise is not possible, according to Arnoux.

2) The official story claims that investigators heard the 'beep' of the knob that Lubitz used to start the plane on its descent. Arnoux states categorically that this knob makes no sound.

3) Arnoux also wonders why no mention was made by investigators of hearing the loud strident beeping made by the cockpit door console when the emergency access code is entered to open the cockpit door. Arnoux recognizes that the emergency unlock code could have been overridden by someone in the cockpit manually holding the lock button down, but this would not have prevented the beeping once the code was entered outside. This would have been the clearest confirmation that one of the pilots had been locked out. Yet no mention was made of it. Instead, we are asked to accept the word of those privy to the CVR that someone was "banging on the door" and shouting "open the damn door". And with all that ambient noise in the cockpit too. They must have very good hearing.

---

Whatever the truth of it, Lubitz's family and friends must be beside themselves, I hope they are getting the support they need.

--------------------
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
I stumbled across this article, suggesting that what has been presented as fact in this case is not the full story. .

It seems to suggest there were eyewitnesses whose accounts disagree with the now accepted narrative:

quote:

---

scant media coverage has been given to the eyewitnesses who heard an explosion and saw smoke coming out of the plane shortly before it crashed. A helicopter pilot in the French Air Force based in Orange, 30 minutes away from the site of the crash, said that the French Air Force had received a number of corroborating witness testimonies on this point. He also confirmed that debris was found upstream from the crash site - which he said confirmed the fact that the piece of fuselage had "been detached from the aircraft before impact".

---

Also, they seem to be suggesting that the whole thing about the co-pilot's respiration being audible on the black-box is unlikely:

quote:

---

One of the major pieces of data used to justify the "suicide pilot" story comes from the alleged CVR recording where, we are told, Lubitz's 'breath' can be heard. This claim has been directly contested by Gerard Arnoux, an 18-year Air France captain and spokesperson for the national monitoring committee on aviation safety, who appeared on 'Le Grande Journal' two days after the crash. Arnoux stated that there were three errors in the official story:

1) It is not possible to hear a pilot's breath on the CVR. Arnoux states that the cockpit of 1st generation A320s are very noisy, so much so that, in flight, pilots had to use headsets to speak to each other. The idea that the CVR could pick up Lubitz's breath with so much ambient noise is not possible, according to Arnoux.

2) The official story claims that investigators heard the 'beep' of the knob that Lubitz used to start the plane on its descent. Arnoux states categorically that this knob makes no sound.

3) Arnoux also wonders why no mention was made by investigators of hearing the loud strident beeping made by the cockpit door console when the emergency access code is entered to open the cockpit door. Arnoux recognizes that the emergency unlock code could have been overridden by someone in the cockpit manually holding the lock button down, but this would not have prevented the beeping once the code was entered outside. This would have been the clearest confirmation that one of the pilots had been locked out. Yet no mention was made of it. Instead, we are asked to accept the word of those privy to the CVR that someone was "banging on the door" and shouting "open the damn door". And with all that ambient noise in the cockpit too. They must have very good hearing.

---

Whatever the truth of it, Lubitz's family and friends must be beside themselves, I hope they are getting the support they need.

---