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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Keeping church music contemporary
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
@Curiosity Killed ... (hi, by the way, hope you're well) - yes, indeed.
There are also RC services with minimal musical accompaniment. I once attended a Mass followed by a Benediction and they simply had a nun (in civvies) playing the piano for the hymns. The rest of it was from the Missal, of course.
The issue, of course, is that SCK favours what he sees as a multi-participatory approach and he appears to believe that guitar-led worship-songs are one of the best ways to achieve this.
I would posit that there is participation in every conceivable worship setting - the only difference being the level of obvious individual contribution.
I'd also suggest that every church tradition I am aware of makes room for small groups and less formal forms of worship in some way, shape or form. They just aren't as immediately obvious or apparent in some of the older, historic traditions. That doesn't mean that they don't exist.
The difference between the older, historic Churches and the kind of congregations/gatherings that SCK would favour, is that in the older outfits these things are there if you want them ...
You could easily spend a lifetime as an Anglican, a Roman Catholic or Orthodox without necessarily attending a small group Bible study, prayer group or similar. In SCK's favoured scheme of things the smaller group setting would be the main - or perhaps even the only - expression or item on the menu - with people being free, of course, to visit other settings if they wished or the larger gatherings and celebrations.
Which is fair enough if everyone is on the same page. But in reality, not everyone is.
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Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Instead, what we've seen is the development of a kind of 'scene' - with all the marketing and puff that goes with all of that, people using the same material from the same sources ...
The small worship band and guitar thing was in evidence when it was all kum-by-yah and Peter, Paul and Mary folksy stuff ... church music a la that 60s group The Seekers ...
But now it's all become sub and cod Coldplay.
What's happened is that people have been to the large gatherings - the Spring Harvests and the New Wines and so on - and are trying to replicate the same effect back at their local church level - without the resources to achieve that.
To pare it all back to the bone would require a shift in ideology and emphasis, I would suggest - and that's a far harder thing to achieve.
I would say the same thing in a different context too - to those parish churches which try to emulate cathedral worship without the resources to pull it off, for instance. ...
That parallel gets a ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
The real issue is matching music expectations and choices to available resources. I know a music director who was fired because he chose music the 6 voice choir could handle and sound decent - church management wanted a "fuller" sound and wanted him to use commercial recordings of bigger choirs for the little choir to sing along to.
A cathedral choir of professional voices is beautiful. A three person folk style group with a guitar is a different kind of beauty. Commercially promoted songs on the radio may be great - and songs written by your own congregation may be just as good vehicles of worship. (Local songs with no licensing fees would be kinder to small church budget! The local Christian songwriters I know would be thrilled to have their songs used.)
I think too often churches are trying to mimic a sound or style they don't have the resources for instead of appreciating what music they do have available if they would look to "what can we do with one guitar and one penny whistle" or "no instruments except a pitch pipe" or "an accordionist who can play simple music lines and basic chords" or whatever is at hand to help the congregation make a joyful noise.
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Prester John
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# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Gamaliel
The very least you require with acapella is someone who can pitch a tune. That requires no training only a mid range voice (low alto/high tenor). I know I have done it and my music training is not anything above high school music lessons. I also need other voices to carry a tune. The reason is that with a group that knows the music well then once the initial few notes are sung the group itself carries the tune.
Having been forced to lead on a couple of occasions I can tell you that if the group is familiar with the song they can "self-correct" if the tin-heared song leader happens to get the wrong tune.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It is interesting to note [...] what we've seen since the guitar first started to regularly appear in a worship context ...
What we've seen isn't a growth in the kind of informal, rather ad hoc (and I don't mean that in a derogative way) gatherings of the kind you describe and favour.
Instead, what we've seen is the development of a kind of 'scene' - with all the marketing and puff that goes with all of that, people using the same material from the same sources ...
The small worship band and guitar thing was in evidence when it was all kum-by-yah and Peter, Paul and Mary folksy stuff ... church music a la that 60s group The Seekers ...
But now it's all become sub and cod Coldplay.
It's interesting you should say that. I think the folksy influence is still detectable in a few churches and church events I've come across. However, it could be that only small, cash-starved congregations are likely to have a place for the guy with his guitar and kids shaking maracas and tambourines in the pews. Once a church moves up in the world, this sort of thing is probably unacceptable.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I'm not so convinced about that, SvitlanaV2 - although I can understand why you'd suggest so.
I know a retired vicar who worships at an inner-city Anglo-Catholic church in Cardiff whenever he returns there and that's as makeshift as can be - for all the bells and smells.
But as a general rule of thumb, I think it holds good.
I've often wondered - like Belle Ringer - why some of the newer and trendier outfits don't go in for more home-made music and home-grown talent ... as you say, there are plenty of people writing music and songs and their material rarely gets an airing - because the stuff coming out of the large networks and conventions dominate the scene.
But that's what happens when you have a 'scene' - and that's effectively what the contemporary charismatic evangelical thing has become - like it or not.
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Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
The folk influence now tends to be nu-folk, Mumford & Sons type stuff (Marcus Mumford's parents are involved with Vineyard iirc?).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've often wondered - like Belle Ringer - why some of the newer and trendier outfits don't go in for more home-made music and home-grown talent ...
My church does! I think it's great - giving people an opportunity to explore and develop gifts they think they might have.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The folk influence now tends to be nu-folk, Mumford & Sons type stuff (Marcus Mumford's parents are involved with Vineyard iirc?).
Yes they are. And I think you're broadly right about the musical direction; here is an example I really like.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
My point was that it usually costs money to be 'trendy', and with the ongoing development of technology this is ever more the case. Consequently, churches that lack money either have to be more self-reliant, or simply stick with a more traditional worship style, if they have classically-trained musicians available.
Also ISTM that the world of professional worship music is now as savvy as any other business, and has worked hard to create a demand for its products that makes home-made music an inadequate competitor. However, I agree that there are some highly talented amateur Christian song-writers and other musicians around, and it's very sad when their churches underuse them. IME, though, they tend not to rely solely on the regular congregation for the expression of their gifts, but also perform at ecumenical events, church concerts and other Christian or denominational functions. They can record their music and develop a name for themselves without the specific involvement of the local congregation.
[ 05. May 2014, 19:38: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Sunday Morning Worship on Radio 4 this week came from the Lighthouse in Salford, and one of the songs that they performed (it really was worship leader performing with mumbling along) was one they'd written in house.
That Build Your Kingdom Here had Irish folk rhythms and phrasing. Some of the stuff from Iona is lyrics to traditional folk songs, I've sung things to Wild Mountain Thyme, O Waly Waly, The Ash Grove and the Londonderry Air amongst others - with the original folk words running through my head.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, it's a 'taste' thing South Coast Kevin, but although I enjoy folky style music this example leaves me cold. I'm looking for the boredom/yawning smiley.
It wouldn't even sound that much better after 3 or 4 pints down my local.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
'Change the at-mos-phere,
Build your kingdom here
We pray ...'
Puh-leeze ...
@SvitlanaV2, yes, I take the point you're making, trendiness does cost money ...
Back to South Coast Kevin ... I'm glad to hear your church makes room for local talent. Back in the day the various 'new church' streams did create a platform for their own talent - but this tended to happen on a network wide level rather than an individual congregational footing. So you had guys like Dave Haddon with Harvestime/Covenant Ministries and David Fellingham, I think, in New Frontiers ... there were others too. But things had become quite organised by that point.
I was imagining you had in mind a few bods with guitars and a paper-and-comb ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I like those tunes, Curiosity Killed. As a sentimental Welshman 'The Ash Grove' can make me go all goo-ey.
I think folk tunes can work well for hymns. 'I Heard The Voice of Jesus Say' is a folk tune, of course.
I came across an Iona/Wild Goose one set to the tune of 'The Lincolnshire Poacher' once ... which I found a bit bizarre.
It may be the circles I move in but I've rarely heard Iona Community songs used in worship.
I like Irish jigs and reels and I like some US nu-country and Alt.Country - and roots/traditional music of all kinds - whether from Mali or Nova Scotia.
There's something a bit 'forced' and cod about SCK's example - middle-class Home Counties kids pretending to be Romany. But then, that was always a danger with the whole folk-revival thing.
It's the sort of thing I wouldn't mind listening to at a festival or some kind or in a bar with a coupla pints. I'm not sure I'd want it in church on a Sunday morning.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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busyknitter
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# 2501
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's something a bit 'forced' and cod about SCK's example - middle-class Home Counties kids pretending to be Romany. But then, that was always a danger with the whole folk-revival thing.
I couldn't speak to their socio-economic background but Rend Collective are from Northern Ireland.
IMO they are an incredibly creative and talented bunch but I think their songs and/or style would be difficult to cover in your average parish church (though we have tried once or twice).
Posts: 903 | From: The Wool Basket | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok - fair enough, if they're from No'r'n Ir'n' then they will be more authentic than Mumford & Sons (I nearly typed Mudfrog & Sons ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) and so on ...
I've got an issue with the Mumfords and the Home Counties upper-echelons of UK evangelicalism ...
I don't doubt that these guys would be fun to watch at a gig or at Greenbelt or some other festival - I'm just not convinced it'd translate very well into Sunday morning worship ...
The thing is, and this applies right across the board, all Christian music has either been 'contemporary' at one time or other or remains so.
Where it borrows directly from what one might call 'secular' styles - and I think it's inevitable that it will do, whatever the churchmanship or style - then there is always a danger of it being sub - something else.
Arguably, the old Salvation Army songs were sub-Music Hall. Similarly with the early Pentecostal songs. On the contemporary, yoof orientated Christian music scene it seems that the only choices available are to be either sub-Coldplay or sub-Bellowhead.
These N'r'n' Irish kids simply look and sound like any number of contemporary folky outfits. The only reason they are getting any attention whatsoever is that they are playing within the niche and specialist arena of contemporary Christian music.
Sure, I'd prefer it to much of what I've heard coming from the contemporary Christian music scene - so taken on its own merits it's probably not bad.
But I still come away with the feeling that we could all do better ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
One further thought that this has triggered is the 'connect' between day-to-day worship during the week and the Sunday gathering.
I increasingly feel a 'disconnect' between my own personal worship practices and what happens on a Sunday morning at our local parish church. I follow the Lectionary readings - they don't. I use a more liturgical 'Office' style - they tend not to.
South Coast Kevin has often made the point about Sunday worship segue-ing seamlessly from the rest of our lives - and I agree with him entirely on that. I don't see any disconnect, necessarily, between listening to heavy metal, country-and-western, Punk, soul, reggae, classical music or jazz and then having Gregorian chant or traditional hymns on a Sunday morning, say.
But it strikes me that all styles of churchmanship tend towards some kind of niche style when it comes to music that is in danger of alienating somebody or other.
Not sure what the answer is to that one - if indeed there is one.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've got an issue with the Mumfords and the Home Counties upper-echelons of UK evangelicalism ...
I don't doubt that these guys would be fun to watch at a gig or at Greenbelt or some other festival - I'm just not convinced it'd translate very well into Sunday morning worship ...
One of the problems is that folk coming back to church after a great church festival - whether that be a whoopee praise session at Spring Harvest or a grand Festal Mass at the Vatican - want to reproduce it in the confines of their own church. And, of course, it doesn't work.
More pragmatic realism would lead to less frustration and angst all round.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes - I completely agree with that, Baptist Trainfan.
I think I've seen this sort of thing going on in my entire 30-odd years involvement with churches of one stripe or other.
I can't be prescriptive for anyone else, but what I've found helpful is to try to develop my own daily 'office' and so on that doesn't depend on anything flash and hi-tech - nor even high-octane - and this sustains me whatever does or doesn't happen on a Sunday morning.
I'd also suggest that a focus on word and sacrament - rather than the 'packaging' of each, as it were - is helpful. Of course, you can't avoid packaging and I quite like it - but if we train ourselves to avoid the kind of mood-swings that seem to accompany roller-coaster ride style worship - and that can be found at all ends of the spectrum - then we can maintain an even keel and be grateful for all God's mercies and for whatever it is we experience or encounter when we gather for worship collectively.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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busyknitter
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# 2501
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Posted
One big elephant trap to avoid is to try and recreate the precise sound you heard at Greenbelt or on YouTube, or even the cathedral. Some music (and this cuts across all genres) translates much better into different settings than others. In addition to that, some music is simply more vocally demanding than others. A skilled worship leader/musical director/Sunday organist needs to appreciate these issues, or they ain't going to do a very good job.
At our place we sing an awful lot of songs by Stuart Townend and the Gettys, almost to the point of overkill. I think our vicar chooses them mainly for their strong association with his Reformed theology. But in addition to that they are written for the comfortable middle ranges of both male and female voices, they tend to have structured predictable tunes (easy for the congregation to sing) and they sound nice played very simply as well as with all the extra instruments and production.
Matt Redman songs can be very tricky to do well in a small church. Blessed Be Your Name needs a big sound and is simply awful without a guitar and drums (which we usually have, but not always). And 10,000 Reasons (which I love as a song) is almost impossible for female voices to sing in the key in which it's written. I think at one point it goes up to a high F, which lots of women simply cannot do. And those that can, can only manage it in head voice, which sounds all wrong for this kind of song. We have been known to transpose it down three semitones.
But some songs written for stadium settings can be adapted very well for the local church; this for example. We leave out the octave leap at the end of the second verse and do it as a straight verse-chorus format song (i.e. without the instrumental bridge) and everybody loves it.
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busyknitter
Shipmate
# 2501
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd also suggest that a focus on word and sacrament - rather than the 'packaging' of each, as it were - is helpful.
I completely agree Gamaliel. I think one reason why Stuart Townend is so successful at the moment is that his songs are well grounded in structure AND have simple, nice tunes.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes - I was rather hoping that Townend would inspire a trend towards a more theologically grounded approach as well as singalongable-ness ... and in a way that would spill out from his small r reformedness to the wider evangelical constituency.
It doesn't seem to have happened, though.
I suspect, though, that my days of singing worship songs and choruses are over. I tend to avoid the 11am service at our parish church where they sing that sort of thing. I'm probably too high up the candle now for the supposedly more 'traditional' 9am service - which is still snake-belly low. My wife likes that sort of thing, though, she doesn't like the 'higher' stuff.
I'd have no problem visiting your parish, though, Busyknitter, but I wouldn't want a regular diet of that stuff these days.
20 years ago I'd have thought The Rend Collective were great. Now it all just looks pretty tired to me ...
I don't particularly have a big beef with evangelicalism per se nor with charismatic stuff - although I'm certainly post-evangelical and post-charismatic to all intents and purposes.
I've been round the block too many times.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
That said, the beef I'd have with the particular Rend Collective song that South Coast Kevin posted isn't necessarily the style - I'd prefer it to Hillsongs any day of the week - but the theology.
It still buys into this revivalist thing about changing the spiritual atmosphere and so on ...
That doesn't sit very well with me these days.
I think that spiritual 'atmosphere' can be changed, but there's rather more to it than singing songs and engaging in what is loosely referred to as 'spiritual warfare' in some charismatic settings.
Nah.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Gamaliel
The very least you require with acapella is someone who can pitch a tune. That requires no training only a mid range voice (low alto/high tenor). I know I have done it and my music training is not anything above high school music lessons. I also need other voices to carry a tune. The reason is that with a group that knows the music well then once the initial few notes are sung the group itself carries the tune.
Remember the extreme form of this the cantor is chosen for their holiness of life not for their ability to hold a tune.
Jengie
One correction - don't by "middling voice" we mean mezzo-soprano or baritone? Mixed sex groups will in my experience sing perfectly naturally in octaves, as they do in traditional hymn and modern worship song singing, with women automatically singing an octave above a male lead, and vice versa. A high tenor/low alto true unison is going to be hard for a lot of women, and impossible for many men.
[ 06. May 2014, 09:43: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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busyknitter
Shipmate
# 2501
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Gamaliel
The very least you require with acapella is someone who can pitch a tune. That requires no training only a mid range voice (low alto/high tenor). I know I have done it and my music training is not anything above high school music lessons. I also need other voices to carry a tune. The reason is that with a group that knows the music well then once the initial few notes are sung the group itself carries the tune.
Remember the extreme form of this the cantor is chosen for their holiness of life not for their ability to hold a tune.
Jengie
One correction - don't by "middling voice" we mean mezzo-soprano or baritone? Mixed sex groups will in my experience sing perfectly naturally in octaves, as they do in traditional hymn and modern worship song singing, with women automatically singing an octave above a male lead, and vice versa. A high tenor/low alto true unison is going to be hard for a lot of women, and impossible for many men.
Yes, exactly so. I suspect Matt Redman (and also Tim Hughes) have high tenor voices and write songs that are comfortable for their range.
The range difference between untrained male and female high voices seems to be two or three semitones less than an octave. So a woman with a naturally highish voice may not be able to sing stuff written by a high voiced bloke.
I'm not sure if the same holds true for lowish voices.
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by busyknitter:
Matt Redman songs can be very tricky to do well in a small church. Blessed Be Your Name needs a big sound and is simply awful without a guitar and drums (which we usually have, but not always). And 10,000 Reasons (which I love as a song) is almost impossible for female voices to sing in the key in which it's written. I think at one point it goes up to a high F, which lots of women simply cannot do. And those that can, can only manage it in head voice, which sounds all wrong for this kind of song. We have been known to transpose it down three semitones.
Yes, these are great points for people seeking to transfer the professionally produced sound of Contemporary Christian Music CDs and conferences to smaller church settings. I mentioned the vocal range issue upthread, I think; a guy from my church contacted one of the contemporary UK worship leaders and they were completely unaware that their songs are really difficult for most people to sing.
The bottom line is that (maybe unlike older hymns) you can't just take the contemporary chorus-type songs as written and use them 'as is' in smaller settings with less skilled / gifted / trained musicians and singers. The songs need adapting, and that's a skill in itself - what arrangements will work in our sort of meeting, what key we should sing it in etc.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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busyknitter
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# 2501
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Posted
Looks like I'm not the only person to be getting a bit bothered over pitch and key. The ever-resourcefull folk at Musicademy have produced a handy set of guidelines and a list of suitable keys for popular songs here.
And here is a blogpost from the same author that I found elsewhere.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
I am an alto, I find most worship songs very difficult to sing. But I also find a lot of the New English Hymnal (what my church uses) to be made for quavery-voiced old ladies and also difficult to sing, and unlike worship songs I am unfamiliar with a lot of the hymns still. The hymns I find easiest to sing are Wesleyan and Revivalist type hymns, big rousing ones - given their popularity at Beer & Hymns etc, I'd say a lot of people do too.
Sung music does not appear to be massively important at my church - we have a good organist and his playing is appreciated, but the singing is not very enthusiastic.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
I agree about the stupidity of having songs and hymns that are outside most people's range, but that's not the only thing a lot of the young 'worship leaders' don't seem to understand. What little I know of New Wine suggests they aren't good on this. If your job is to lead other people in worship, that job includes ensuring the congregation can catch and sing along with the rhythm. Wandering on and off pitch or in and out of time may - for those that like that sort of thing - be just about all right if you are performing and others are listening. If your job is to enable them to sing, it's not.
That means rhythms that people can pick up AND giving them a clear melodic lead that fits the rhythm.
The Gettys and Dave Townsend are good on this. But of the other examples, if you were using the Magnificat in a congregational setting to Mountain Thyme, you'd need to stick far closer to rhythm and melody than the linked version, nice though it was. Likewise, if Rend Collective were actually leading worship rather than doing a music video, they would need to do Build your kingdom here differently. Otherwise people would not be able to follow them.
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by busyknitter:
Looks like I'm not the only person to be getting a bit bothered over pitch and key. The ever-resourcefull folk at Musicademy have produced a handy set of guidelines and a list of suitable keys for popular songs here.
And here is a blogpost from the same author that I found elsewhere.
Those links look very useful, thanks! I shall have a proper look later.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
@Enoch - yes, I agree that that wasn't a particularly great version of Holy is His Name for congregational worship, but I've linked you a better version to show that. I just picked on that tune as adaptable to a range of different settings, both physical and musical, and chose one with words and one in small informal worship.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by busyknitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Gamaliel
The very least you require with acapella is someone who can pitch a tune. That requires no training only a mid range voice (low alto/high tenor). I know I have done it and my music training is not anything above high school music lessons. I also need other voices to carry a tune. The reason is that with a group that knows the music well then once the initial few notes are sung the group itself carries the tune.
Remember the extreme form of this the cantor is chosen for their holiness of life not for their ability to hold a tune.
Jengie
One correction - don't by "middling voice" we mean mezzo-soprano or baritone? Mixed sex groups will in my experience sing perfectly naturally in octaves, as they do in traditional hymn and modern worship song singing, with women automatically singing an octave above a male lead, and vice versa. A high tenor/low alto true unison is going to be hard for a lot of women, and impossible for many men.
Yes, exactly so. I suspect Matt Redman (and also Tim Hughes) have high tenor voices and write songs that are comfortable for their range.
The range difference between untrained male and female high voices seems to be two or three semitones less than an octave. So a woman with a naturally highish voice may not be able to sing stuff written by a high voiced bloke.
I'm not sure if the same holds true for lowish voices.
No because you are setting for everyone from a Bass to a Soprano! Men are not simply an octave lower than women.
Jengie
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busyknitter
Shipmate
# 2501
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Posted
I think that's what I said too. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 903 | From: The Wool Basket | Registered: Mar 2002
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busyknitter
Shipmate
# 2501
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Posted
To expand: the difficulty is that contemporary worship songs are typically sung in unison with the men and women singing an octave apart. And it is precisely because vocal ranges do not fit into tidy octave-sized chunks that songwriters should ideally write songs within a fairly narrow range, a musical lowest common denominator if you will.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Has anyone else noticed how it suddenly dawns on the average congregation with an expression of mild panic, part way through the first verse of I cannot tell - yes, tune Danny Boy - that "This is the one with that really high note in it"?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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busyknitter
Shipmate
# 2501
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Has anyone else noticed how it suddenly dawns on the average congregation with an expression of mild panic, part way through the first verse of I cannot tell - yes, tune Danny Boy - that "This is the one with that really high note in it"?
But that's what makes it all so much fun!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
It just so happens I do have a high voice. When I'm in full choral mode I can cruise up to high A or even Bflat without breaking into too much of a sweat. And for that song it all sounds grand. But when it comes to the standard contemporary worship style, high female voices don't work at all. When I'm singing in the music group I more often than not sing mezzo range harmonies these days, or even a bit lower.
[ 06. May 2014, 15:57: Message edited by: busyknitter ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Has anyone else noticed how it suddenly dawns on the average congregation with an expression of mild panic, part way through the first verse of I cannot tell - yes, tune Danny Boy - that "This is the one with that really high note in it"?
Yes - you can have the same frisson of excitement with "Blaenwern". And what about "I vow to thee my country" - do you go up or down for the bit in the middle (neither is ideal, but then it wasn't written as a hymn tune)?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by busyknitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Gamaliel
The very least you require with acapella is someone who can pitch a tune. That requires no training only a mid range voice (low alto/high tenor). I know I have done it and my music training is not anything above high school music lessons. I also need other voices to carry a tune. The reason is that with a group that knows the music well then once the initial few notes are sung the group itself carries the tune.
Remember the extreme form of this the cantor is chosen for their holiness of life not for their ability to hold a tune.
Jengie
One correction - don't by "middling voice" we mean mezzo-soprano or baritone? Mixed sex groups will in my experience sing perfectly naturally in octaves, as they do in traditional hymn and modern worship song singing, with women automatically singing an octave above a male lead, and vice versa. A high tenor/low alto true unison is going to be hard for a lot of women, and impossible for many men.
Yes, exactly so. I suspect Matt Redman (and also Tim Hughes) have high tenor voices and write songs that are comfortable for their range.
The range difference between untrained male and female high voices seems to be two or three semitones less than an octave. So a woman with a naturally highish voice may not be able to sing stuff written by a high voiced bloke.
I'm not sure if the same holds true for lowish voices.
No because you are setting for everyone from a Bass to a Soprano! Men are not simply an octave lower than women.
Jengie
No, they aren't. But the vast majority of women can sing in the range where soprano and alto overlap (say Bb - D) and similarly most men can sing in the tenor/bass overlap - (approximately the same an octave lower). This is the range that would naturally be set by a mezzo or Baritone. A high tenor is likely to set a range such as G below middle C to A above, which is going to be damned hard for most men to sing along with, and a bit low to sing an octave down. The overlap range in octaves, c. Bb - D, is how I've always known it done, and it generally works.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by busyknitter:
To expand: the difficulty is that contemporary worship songs are typically sung in unison with the men and women singing an octave apart. And it is precisely because vocal ranges do not fit into tidy octave-sized chunks that songwriters should ideally write songs within a fairly narrow range, a musical lowest common denominator if you will.
Yes. It's also a fact that modern vocal techniques tend to be quite high for men, but quite low for women - most male vocalists sing in the tenor range (often falsetto if it's not their natural voice) whereas women tend to be down in the low contralto (I blame Karen Carpenter). Probably nearer a fourth or fifth than an octave. Women singing contemporary songs written for a contemporary male voice are usually stuck between singing at pitch and struggling with the bottom, or singing up an octave and sounding Just Wrong at the top. Mrs LB has found this with Beatles songs (yes, I know, but the range is much the same as contemporary stuff and she's hardly going to ever want to sing anything by Boyzone or whoever's popular now) - professionally, the songs would be transposed. Can't do that when you're singing together, so you need to move more towards the traditional ranges that work an octave apart - even if that does take the professional male vocalist rather lower than he's used.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am an alto, I find most worship songs very difficult to sing. But I also find a lot of the New English Hymnal (what my church uses) to be made for quavery-voiced old ladies and also difficult to sing
Which is odd because the original English Hymnal pitched everything lower than Ancient and Modern.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am an alto, I find most worship songs very difficult to sing. But I also find a lot of the New English Hymnal (what my church uses) to be made for quavery-voiced old ladies and also difficult to sing
Which is odd because the original English Hymnal pitched everything lower than Ancient and Modern.
I have no experience of Ancient & Modern, sorry. It is possibly an issue that comes from having a small elderly congregation rather than the hymns themselves.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Jade
You have my sympathy: as an alto, the alto line for NEH hymns would be well within your comfort zone but if you are joining in with hymns in unison - singing the tune, in other words - then you are stuck between things being either too high or too low. The same is likely to be true for a bass.
As for the pitch of hymns in A&M - this is irrelevant, BUT: the old A&M was higher than the NEH, the AMNS is lower than the NEH.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Jade
You have my sympathy: as an alto, the alto line for NEH hymns would be well within your comfort zone but if you are joining in with hymns in unison - singing the tune, in other words - then you are stuck between things being either too high or too low. The same is likely to be true for a bass.
As for the pitch of hymns in A&M - this is irrelevant, BUT: the old A&M was higher than the NEH, the AMNS is lower than the NEH.
I wonder if voices have got lower? Hymns seldom rise above an Eb, usually peaking at around D. Doesn't seem high to me, but then I'm not a bass. Were the tunes written in a time when when voices were higher for some reason? Or is it that we seldom sing these days, especially out loud, so high notes seem harder?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
(Apologies if I'm covering old ground, I've not read the whole thread, just the last few messages)
Isn't it more a case that in Ye Olden Dayes hymns were written with the expectation that people would sing their line (soprano, alto, tenor, bass etc. etc.), so there was always a "comfortable zone" for everyone*, whereas with more modern songs (and congregations) one tends to sing unison, so it's melody or bust?
Coupled with (for 'modern' songs) the tendency to have a few big name pro/semi-pro artists and bands producing stadium pieces with near two-octave ranges which then get translated to one's local shack where if you're lucky a gifted amateur has to take a stab at leading it, and you're in for a lot of rumble rumble squeak squeak.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
(Apologies if I'm covering old ground, I've not read the whole thread, just the last few messages)
Isn't it more a case that in Ye Olden Dayes hymns were written with the expectation that people would sing their line (soprano, alto, tenor, bass etc. etc.), so there was always a "comfortable zone" for everyone*, whereas with more modern songs (and congregations) one tends to sing unison, so it's melody or bust?
I've heard of this happening in some places, but I'm not aware it was ever the expected norm.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
But it certainly sounds reasonable!
One other thing to remember: the actual pitching of instruments has gone up and down over the years. Middle C is not a fixed point!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Well, yes and no. The melody of most hymns is actually a bit low for soprano. I've always considered it to sit in a compromise range; mezzo-soprano/Baritone. I'd have expected it to have a higher tessitura if voices were expect to split.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
(Apologies if I'm covering old ground, I've not read the whole thread, just the last few messages)
Isn't it more a case that in Ye Olden Dayes hymns were written with the expectation that people would sing their line (soprano, alto, tenor, bass etc. etc.), so there was always a "comfortable zone" for everyone*, whereas with more modern songs (and congregations) one tends to sing unison, so it's melody or bust?
I've heard of this happening in some places, but I'm not aware it was ever the expected norm.
In some cultures it might be different, but in general, congregations need to be taught how to sing in harmony, and indeed feel as if they've been given permission to do so. It's not something they seem willing or able to do without guidance, IME.
Perhaps churches should be more willing to work with singing teachers to encourage help them to achieve this. But rather than just targeting a few enthusiasts from the pews I think you do need to get organists, choir leaders and/or worship band leaders on board. Unfortunately, I'm not convinced that some of these people want congregations to have any musical training. Perhaps they see this as their territory.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I'm not sure many people want to sing in harmony. IME they'd rather sing the tunes they know.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
They don't want to and they're not expected to.
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