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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Be afraid, "Islamic State"
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But fair enough, I have heard apologies, and from some apparently important Muslim leaders. That's one of the problems by the way: I simply do not know who has relevant status in the Muslim word, so that their condemnation actually will mean something. 100 Muslim scholars signed this or that declaration. What does that mean? Maybe it will through the education system eventually change the opinion of millions of people. Maybe it will be totally ignored on Muslim streets. I have no idea.
So how would you feel about the Pope being required to condemn every attack by an American religious nutter on an abortion clinic?
And who do you think Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus should identify as the CORRECT Christian leader to condemn an attack by an American religious nutter on an abortion clinic, or a mosque, or a temple?
[ 13. August 2014, 23:02: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
But there are protests against ISIS organised in the UK. I linked to a few below:
quote:
100 London Imams speaking out against ISIS
Oh and these photos too
It's not necessarily that things aren't happening, they often aren't reported.
The protests against the Gaza atrocities weren't covered in the media for a good week after I knew they were happening - because I'd seen them - and I'm sure there was stuff happening before I became aware of it.
xpost -that was in response to MattBlack
[ 13. August 2014, 23:01: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
CK, the second link - the 'photos' one - doesn't work.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Sorry - not sure where that one has gone - try this one
And this one of Muslims demonstrating outside Parliament
The problem is it's not hitting the media, but there's a lot on Twitter if you look
[ 13. August 2014, 23:05: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But fair enough, I have heard apologies, and from some apparently important Muslim leaders. That's one of the problems by the way: I simply do not know who has relevant status in the Muslim word, so that their condemnation actually will mean something. 100 Muslim scholars signed this or that declaration. What does that mean?
The article I linked to was from the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation.
quote:
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) (formerly Organization of the Islamic Conference) is the second largest inter-governmental organization after the United Nations which has membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The Organization is the collective voice of the Muslim world and ensuring to safeguard and protect the interests of the Muslim world in the spirit of promoting international peace and harmony among various people of the world.
Over the last 40 years, the membership has grown from its founding members of 25 to 57 states. The Organization has the singular honor to galvanize the Ummah into a unified body and have actively represented the Muslims by espousing all causes close to the hearts of over 1.5 billion Muslims of the world.
That's pretty impressive.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
IngoB: But anyway, you seem to have the opinion that somehow there must be an end to all this condemning.
No, I applaud it every time when Muslims condemn extremism. I'm happy about that.
What I don't think that we have the right to demand this from ordinary Muslims who have nothing to do with extremism. When they do condemn it, excellent, but I have no right to demand this from them. I have no right to condition communities of ordinary Muslims having a place in society upon them making these condemnations. And I have no right to set the standards of when these condemnations will be enough.
A few days ago, a white police officer shot innocent Michael Brown. I condemn that. But no-one demands of me that I condemn that, just because I'm white. No-one will exclude my community if I don't condemn this. No-one sets standards on whether I have condemned this enough. There's a word for that. It's called privilege.
It's a veiled and creepy form of anti-Islam, isn't it? I mean, to keep asking Muslims to condemn terrorism, suggests that Islam = terrorism, so Muslims have to keep showing their Persil credentials.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
IngoB: But anyway, you seem to have the opinion that somehow there must be an end to all this condemning.
No, I applaud it every time when Muslims condemn extremism. I'm happy about that.
What I don't think that we have the right to demand this from ordinary Muslims who have nothing to do with extremism. When they do condemn it, excellent, but I have no right to demand this from them. I have no right to condition communities of ordinary Muslims having a place in society upon them making these condemnations. And I have no right to set the standards of when these condemnations will be enough.
A few days ago, a white police officer shot innocent Michael Brown. I condemn that. But no-one demands of me that I condemn that, just because I'm white. No-one will exclude my community if I don't condemn this. No-one sets standards on whether I have condemned this enough. There's a word for that. It's called privilege.
It's a veiled and creepy form of anti-Islam, isn't it? I mean, to keep asking Muslims to condemn terrorism, suggests that Islam = terrorism, so Muslims have to keep showing their Persil credentials.
ISIS have declared war on all other Muslim factions, AND against everyone else. And have done it in the name of a "true" form of Islam. They even threatened to destroy Mecca. I think people need to know where Muslims stand. This is war. They want to kill and destroy advanced civilisation.
Fuck them.
"If they put one of yours into hospital you put one of them in the morgue - THAT's how you get Capone".
Evacuate civis, put a ring around ISIS, extract hostages, drop nukes.
Time-on-target info shared between everyone BUT ISIS - invite all the people they threatened to the party.
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
Oh- and re Hamas/Israel, I believe HAMAS declared war - therefore they're committing war crimes against the Gazans by hiting their materiel in civi areas. HAMAS are SOLELY responsible.
Israel has had enough. Hamas want to destroy them completely - if they have to be flattened - tough.
Israel is sending aid in for Palestinian civis...
Hamas is provoking someone, then crying "he hit me!"
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I've got a better idea - the Western allies should invade another Arab or Muslim country! What could possibly go wrong?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I think people need to know where Muslims stand.
WHICH ONES?
Honestly, the idea that a billion Muslims all 'stand' in the same place makes as much sense as thinking that a billion Christians all think the same thing, or a billion Chinese, or a billion anybody.
There is no central authority. And even if there WAS a central authority, the views of the central authority are not equal to the views of every single individual over which they have authority. The views of the American Government are not the views of every American (which should be damned obvious given the enormous political heat the American Government receives from a bunch of people in the Capitol, never mind the rest of the country). The views of the Pope are not, however much some would like this, the views of every Catholic.
There is no single Muslim view, just as there is no single Christian view. The very existence of the Ship is a demonstration of the latter.
And really, why the blazes should an invididual Muslim in the United Kingdom, Morocco or Indonesia be required to express an opinion on events in Syria and Iraq? Why does their opinion have any more relevance? Why make them answerable in any way for the actions of someone else that they have one thing in common with?
Plus there's the minor detail that a significant proportion of the people directly suffering at the hands of ISIS are Muslims.
I mean, when Ku Klux Klan members were killing folk, did anyone say "where do Christians stand?". Because some of them stood with their neck in the noose.
[ 14. August 2014, 10:09: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
ISIS have declared war on all other Muslim factions, AND against everyone else.
Where have these ISIS guys come from out of nowhere? I'd never heard of them before last month and now they've got half a country.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've got a better idea - the Western allies should invade another Arab or Muslim country! What could possibly go wrong?
Probably not. But the "let them convene then bomb the bastards" thought re ISIS did seem logical - as they were all convening in a small patch of desert...
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
ISIS have declared war on all other Muslim factions, AND against everyone else.
Where have these ISIS guys come from out of nowhere? I'd never heard of them before last month and now they've got half a country.
They have been around for a few years - they used to be called Al Qaida in Iraq.
How often did the Pope condemn IRA attacks? I certainly don't recall it happening every time...
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
ISIS have declared war on all other Muslim factions, AND against everyone else.
Where have these ISIS guys come from out of nowhere? I'd never heard of them before last month and now they've got half a country.
They have been around for a few years - they used to be called Al Qaida in Iraq.
How often did the Pope condemn IRA attacks? I certainly don't recall it happening every time...
Very fair point about the different expectations and the Pope not being asked to condemn things. There's also a news story today about some total nutcases in China who murder people they think are "demons" and yet subscribe to being sort of christians. Should we condemn them? Happy to if it would help but no-one expects it.
On the ISIS thing I don't know why the news don't make it clear that they used to be called Al Qaeda - that's a familiar name and we all know what it means. The new name (and specially "the Islamic State") makes them sound more legit.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Press releases by religious bureaucrats are all well and good but I really wish, for everyone's sake, that there were anti-ISIS demonstrations happening everywhere that were at least equal in size and intensity to the recent anti-Israel demonstrations.
The radicals are trying to use these atrocities to drive a wedge between moderate Muslims and non-Muslim westeners and force the moderates into the arms of the radicals. A few large angry mobs of Muslims shouting anti-ISIS slogans and protesting Christian and Yazidi persecution would help Muslim/non-Muslim integration in the West immeasurably.
Get out there and protest then. There are some, but only a few, Israelis in the demonstrations opposing the military actions against Gaza and the West Bank.
Bit difficult if Demas isn't a Muslim, isn't it?
You rather missed the logical corollary. Demas demands that the anti-Muslim protests have Muslims in them. But when talking about anti-Israel protests, doesn't seem to consider whether they have Israelis in them.
Er...no I didn't miss anything: Demas was encouraged to get out and protest as if in some way that would mean that there would consequently be Muslims protesting against IS.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
As far as I'm aware, there's nothing happening here organised by Muslims; I shall be delighted to be disabused of my ignorance if incorrect.
Why would you be made aware? If you're not a Muslim, why would any Muslims notify you about the fact that they're organising a Muslim protest to satisfy the apparent need to have Muslim protesters?
I haven't been notified of any trades union marches, Stop the War demos, anti-Israel or anti-student loans protests but I've been aware of them. I'm note sure therefore how you equate "not being notified" with "not being aware".
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Because according to Wikipedia it's not as simple as ISIS was originally Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is one of several groups that have come together to form ISIS - so saying it's Al Qaeda would be inaccurate.
And Matt Black - that's all to do with reporting. There are demonstrations by Muslims in the UK against ISIS, but they are not being reported. I found out by searching Twitter
[ 14. August 2014, 11:12: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Er...no I didn't miss anything: Demas was encouraged to get out and protest as if in some way that would mean that there would consequently be Muslims protesting against IS.
Where the fuck did I state or imply that? Not for the first time, you have wilfully and deliberately misunderstood my post. You're an intelligent guy, so Read For Comprehension, rather than a desperate attempt to take a cheap and spurious advantage.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I think people need to know where Muslims stand.
WHICH ONES?
Honestly, the idea that a billion Muslims all 'stand' in the same place makes as much sense as thinking that a billion Christians all think the same thing, or a billion Chinese, or a billion anybody.
There is no central authority. And even if there WAS a central authority, the views of the central authority are not equal to the views of every single individual over which they have authority. The views of the American Government are not the views of every American (which should be damned obvious given the enormous political heat the American Government receives from a bunch of people in the Capitol, never mind the rest of the country). The views of the Pope are not, however much some would like this, the views of every Catholic.
There is no single Muslim view, just as there is no single Christian view. The very existence of the Ship is a demonstration of the latter.
And really, why the blazes should an invididual Muslim in the United Kingdom, Morocco or Indonesia be required to express an opinion on events in Syria and Iraq? Why does their opinion have any more relevance? Why make them answerable in any way for the actions of someone else that they have one thing in common with?
Plus there's the minor detail that a significant proportion of the people directly suffering at the hands of ISIS are Muslims.
I mean, when Ku Klux Klan members were killing folk, did anyone say "where do Christians stand?". Because some of them stood with their neck in the noose.
The biggest error made by major govts was to STOP ISIS adherents of sympathisers from going out and joining them. If they'd been helped.. they're isolated. Then it would have been easy to cut them out of the discussion. As in "chemotherapy applied by Trident".
Yes - it's a rather politically incorrect way of dealing - but militarily it would have been *perfect*. ISIS are Tumblr Islamists.. more "pure" than AQT...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Oh- and re Hamas/Israel, I believe HAMAS declared war - therefore they're committing war crimes against the Gazans by hiting their materiel in civi areas. HAMAS are SOLELY responsible.
Israel has had enough. Hamas want to destroy them completely - if they have to be flattened - tough.
Israel is sending aid in for Palestinian civis...
Hamas is provoking someone, then crying "he hit me!"
This may be a surprise to you Alex, but it is Likud party policy to reclaim the West Bank and Gaza strip, ie all of the Palestinian territories, for Israel. Benjamin Netenyahu is the Likud leader as well as PM (and in Likud terms he's a moderate).
If you're going to condemn Hamas for inflexibility and a destructive policy towards its neighbour, you have to consider that of the current Israeli government too.
Whatever your pastor tells you.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Sioni, this is where you said it: quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Get out there and protest then.
I'm not sure I am 'wilfully misunderstanding' what you said: you said what you said. I am (not wilfully) however misunderstanding what you are trying to now say about it. Please clarify what you meant by your original statement. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Or maybe I'm just having a particularly thick couple of days but I am genuinely confused now.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Sioni, this is where you said it: quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Get out there and protest then.
I'm not sure I am 'wilfully misunderstanding' what you said: you said what you said. I am (not wilfully) however misunderstanding what you are trying to now say about it. Please clarify what you meant by your original statement.
Yeah, because "get out there and protest then" really equates with "get out there and protest because [insert spurious reasoning by Matt Black here]".
I explained it to you, and you just went ahead and ignored my explanation. So now you want another explanation?
[ 14. August 2014, 12:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've got a better idea - the Western allies should invade another Arab or Muslim country! What could possibly go wrong?
Probably not. But the "let them convene then bomb the bastards" thought re ISIS did seem logical - as they were all convening in a small patch of desert...
I'm not sure if it's logical, but it's certainly fucking stupid. The Middle East really needs the Western powers to be dropping bombs all over the place; I think maybe they are a bit tired of that. Any Western intervention is loaded with dangers now, and might even suit IS, which can use it as propaganda.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Sioni, this is where you said it: quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Get out there and protest then.
I'm not sure I am 'wilfully misunderstanding' what you said: you said what you said. I am (not wilfully) however misunderstanding what you are trying to now say about it. Please clarify what you meant by your original statement.
Yeah, because "get out there and protest then" really equates with "get out there and protest because [insert spurious reasoning by Matt Black here]".
I explained it to you, and you just went ahead and ignored my explanation. So now you want another explanation?
OK, let's break this down:
Demas said:
quote:
A few large angry mobs of Muslims shouting anti-ISIS slogans and protesting Christian and Yazidi persecution would help Muslim/non-Muslim integration in the West immeasurably.
To which Sioni replied: quote:
Get out there and protest then.
I then made the point: quote:
Bit difficult if Demas isn't a Muslim, isn't it?
Chast got the point by jokingly suggesting that Demas should convert. Please tell me which bit of this therefore I am 'wilfully misunderstanding' and how your 'explanation' makes sense in the light of the above.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Or maybe I'm just having a particularly thick couple of days but I am genuinely confused now.
Did I say 'couple of days'? If you're confused, read orfeo's post, he's put it in clearer language still.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Demas demands that the anti-Muslim protests have Muslims in them.
Demas has neither demanded, requested or even expressed an opinion on the desirability of "anti-Muslim protests". For the record I would strongly condemn any such protest.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Demas demands that the anti-Muslim protests have Muslims in them.
Demas has neither demanded, requested or even expressed an opinion on the desirability of "anti-Muslim protests". For the record I would strongly condemn any such protest.
Oh fine. The anti-ISIS protests. The protests against a particular group of Muslims.
See, I can be just as casual and sloppy with language as any of you. I still understood, though, the basic flaw in obliging Muslims-that-are-not-members-of-a-particular-group-of-Muslims to be involved in the protests against a particular group of Muslims, while not similarly requiring Jews-that-are-not-members-of-the-Israeli-government to make an appearance at protests against that particular Jewish group, the Israeli government.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Or maybe I'm just having a particularly thick couple of days but I am genuinely confused now.
Did I say 'couple of days'? If you're confused, read orfeo's post, he's put it in clearer language still.
I said 'couple of days', referring to yesterday and today. And Orfeo's explanation makes no sense in the light of the post trail in my last post.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
And Orfeo's explanation makes no sense in the light of the post trail in my last post.
Ah, but see, I did this crazy little thing called 'reading the entire post' instead of selectively picking out one sentence from a two-sentence post. Like you've done, oh... about 3 times now?
(EDIT: And that's for Sioni's post. You've also edited out a big chunk of the post of Demas' that he was replying to.
Basically, the 'post trail' you've set out has almost nothing to do with Sioni's actual thought process, because you've edited out the relevant parts of each post! Demas' complaint about the size of anti-ISIS protests removed. Two mentions of Israel made to vanish in a flash of your keyboard. )
Where did you develop this rule that a full stop means it's time for your brain to shut down?
[ 14. August 2014, 14:59: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Sorry, still don't get it: Demas was calling for Muslims to make anti-IS protests; yes or no?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh bloody hell, let me fix your post trail for you, by quoting the FIRST paragraph of Demas' post, not the second.
Demas ALSO said:
quote:
I really wish, for everyone's sake, that there were anti-ISIS demonstrations happening everywhere that were at least equal in size and intensity to the recent anti-Israel demonstrations.
And Sioni said:
quote:
Get out there and protest then.
Makes perfect bloody sense. Sioni's first sentence was a response to Demas' first paragraph, and Sioni's second sentence was a response to Demas' second paragraph. You then went and decided to pick Demas' second paragraph and combine it with Sioni's first sentence, for reasons only you can fathom.
[ 14. August 2014, 15:05: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
OK <penny drops> I get it now. Apologies to Sioni (and to you). I obviously am having a particular dense few days here ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
We got there in the end, is the main thing.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Took a whole bloody page nearly though! I blame too many late nights and being distracted by this ghastly thing called 'work'.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Oh my am I relieved. Thanks Matt, and to orfeo for his patience in unravelling the bloody thing.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Demas demands that the anti-Muslim protests have Muslims in them.
Demas has neither demanded, requested or even expressed an opinion on the desirability of "anti-Muslim protests". For the record I would strongly condemn any such protest.
Oh fine. The anti-ISIS protests. The protests against a particular group of Muslims.
See, I can be just as casual and sloppy with language as any of you. I still understood, though, the basic flaw in obliging Muslims-that-are-not-members-of-a-particular-group-of-Muslims to be involved in the protests against a particular group of Muslims, while not similarly requiring Jews-that-are-not-members-of-the-Israeli-government to make an appearance at protests against that particular Jewish group, the Israeli government.
I think talking about 'Islam' and 'Muslims' is just inviting inexactitude, which is risky in relation to this region. I was just reading about the Kurdish PKK, which is currently supposed to be helping the Yazidi escape from IS - but the PKK is officially classed as a terrorist group! So maybe we should be bombing them as well.
It is beyond satire that the very states which dismantled the infrastructure of Iraq, which in part led to the exile of many Christians, are now being asked to intervene in the humanitarian crisis. It's like asking the burglar to fix the alarm.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Demas demands that the anti-Muslim protests have Muslims in them.
Demas has neither demanded, requested or even expressed an opinion on the desirability of "anti-Muslim protests". For the record I would strongly condemn any such protest.
Oh fine. The anti-ISIS protests. The protests against a particular group of Muslims.
See, I can be just as casual and sloppy with language as any of you. I still understood, though, the basic flaw in obliging Muslims-that-are-not-members-of-a-particular-group-of-Muslims to be involved in the protests against a particular group of Muslims, while not similarly requiring Jews-that-are-not-members-of-the-Israeli-government to make an appearance at protests against that particular Jewish group, the Israeli government.
See, I think my use of language has been just fine. I think you are reading sloppy because then you can pigeonhole me and feel righteous.
I haven't demanded anything, nor am I obliging anyone to do anything. I am worried though that the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims in the West is a car headed for a brick wall. This is the sole fault of neither. But I am not going to resile from my view that a sufficiently large and angry anti-ISIS demo which is Muslim driven would help community relations and strengthen the moderates in their struggle against the extremists.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
I haven't demanded anything, nor am I obliging anyone to do anything. I am worried though that the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims in the West is a car headed for a brick wall. This is the sole fault of neither. But I am not going to resile from my view that a sufficiently large and angry anti-ISIS demo which is Muslim driven would help community relations and strengthen the moderates in their struggle against the extremists.
There have been anti-ISIS demonstrations and protests organised by Muslims. I suppose there haven't been enough of them and they haven't been big enough though ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
[ 14. August 2014, 18:30: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
To quote myself...
quote:
At some point, you simply have to break the cycle by deciding that there will be no more interventions, no matter how bad the atrocities are. Because if recent history has shown us anything, it is that these interventions don't do anything to stop further atrocities from occuring.
Realpolitik guru Stephen Walt argues the same thing:
"It's time to walk away and not look back."
(That website comes up kinda disjointed on my computer screen, but doesn't seem to do any harm.)
[ 14. August 2014, 20:14: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Contrary to the selfish, cowardly and cynical bullshit that Stetson has been coming out with on this thread, I for one am extremely pleased that the USA has intervened recently in Iraq to halt the advance of the psychopaths of IS, and to bring aid to the besieged Yazidis.
Simpletons like Stetson would just let these people die. That makes him / her as bad as IS, in my view.
The USA et al may have created the mess in the first place. Therefore the most irresponsible action would be to walk away. Rather, they should take responsibility and intervene appropriately to do something to clean up the mess they made.
The solution is not non-intervention but appropriate and justified intervention. I don't expect someone like Stetson to understand this (bloody obvious) distinction though.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
EE wrote:
quote:
The solution is not non-intervention but appropriate and justified intervention.
What I am arguing is that, at this point, there is no "appropriate and justified intervention", ie. nothing that actually will reduce the body count long term. (I am basing this on the recent history of western action in the region.)
So, I'm not saying "Who cares if more people die, I want a US pullout anyway." I'm saying "A US presence isn't going to do anything to prevent more people from dying, and may very well make things worse, therefore I want a US pullout."
There is reasonable debate to be had about whether continued US action can, in fact, do anything to make things better, and I'm certainly open to that discussion. But it is a mischaracterization to call my motivations selfish.
[ 14. August 2014, 20:50: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Oh, and one more thing...
quote:
Simpletons like Stetson would just let these people die.
Do you advocate western intervention in every country where it might prevent a particular group of people from getting killed? Because that would be a lot of intervention.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Figbash
The Doubtful Guest
# 9048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I think people need to know where Muslims stand.
WHICH ONES?
Honestly, the idea that a billion Muslims all 'stand' in the same place makes as much sense as thinking that a billion Christians all think the same thing, or a billion Chinese, or a billion anybody.
Also, why should Muslims have to 'stand' anywhere? For example, are Christians en masse required to show where they 'stand' whenever (say) the Lord's Resistance Army goes round committing a spot more beastliness (it says) in the name of the Christian God? Do we have to demonstrate where we 'stand' whenever Fred Phelps' followers do their thing, or various former Archbishops tell us that teh gay makes baby Jesus cry?
Shouldn't it just be bloody obvious that peaceful, law-abiding, middle-of-the-road Muslims don't support crazed genocidal theocrats without some latter-day Senator McCarthy demanding that they prove their allegiance? On the grounds that they wouldn't be peaceful, law-abiding, etc, etc, etc if they were?
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
The biggest error made by major govts was to STOP ISIS adherents of sympathisers from going out and joining them. If they'd been helped.. they're isolated. Then it would have been easy to cut them out of the discussion. As in "chemotherapy applied by Trident".
Yes - it's a rather politically incorrect way of dealing - but militarily it would have been *perfect*. ISIS are Tumblr Islamists.. more "pure" than AQT...
'Militarily it would have been *perfect*', eh? Let's unpack that a bit. How are you proposing to:
- Ensure that all ISIS members are located in your target zone?
- Ensure that they are sufficiently concentrated that you really can remove them all in a 'surgical' way?
- Ensure that no non-ISIS members (you know, passing innocents) happen to be in the area at the time?
- Control fall-out, post-strike water-table pollution, etc?
- Avoid making a bloody fool of yourself by creating thousands of martyrs and a new war-cry for Jihadists for years to come?
Posts: 1209 | From: Gashlycrumb | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Oh, and one more thing...
quote:
Simpletons like Stetson would just let these people die.
Do you advocate western intervention in every country where it might prevent a particular group of people from getting killed? Because that would be a lot of intervention.
I was thinking about the 4 million who died in the recent wars in Congo. Should we have intervened there? If not, why not?
As you say, we could make a long list of wars and conflicts with large numbers of dead - which ones should be the target of Western intervention? The ones with oil deposits, I suppose.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Of course, the staggering irony is that it's because the Western powers went into Iraq and smashed up the infrastructure, that the Christians have gone into exile, the Sunni tribes have turned against the govt (after some of them actually fought against Al Quaeda), and IS have been able to move from Syria.
How many US presidents have intervened in Iraq - is it four? Fucking hell.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
See, I think my use of language has been just fine. I think you are reading sloppy because then you can pigeonhole me and feel righteous.
If that were the case, I would hardly be the first person around here to do a bit of pigeonholing.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:
'Militarily it would have been *perfect*', eh? Let's unpack that a bit. How are you proposing to:
- Ensure that all ISIS members are located in your target zone?
- Ensure that they are sufficiently concentrated that you really can remove them all in a 'surgical' way?
- Ensure that no non-ISIS members (you know, passing innocents) happen to be in the area at the time?
- Control fall-out, post-strike water-table pollution, etc?
- Avoid making a bloody fool of yourself by creating thousands of martyrs and a new war-cry for Jihadists for years to come?
By engaging in some adolescent G.I. Joe revenge fantasy, that's how! Hooo-eeee, just so easy to tell the good guys in their white hats from the baddies in their black turbans. Evacuate the civvies, bomb the IS back to the stone age (convenient that the IS doesn't check their mail and missed the evacuation notice everybody else seems to have gotten), forget that the empty desert isn't actually that empty, and rest content in the knowledge that we've done a good job of exterminating pests, using the metaphorical can of Raid.
Solving terrorist threats: even easier than killing roaches. Thank you, Alex, for making this oh-so-very-clear to us all.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Also, it suggests Alex hasn't been looking at maps recently, where it shows that IS now have influence from eastern Syria, into northern Iraq, up to the Kurdish held territory. Good luck with bombing all that, it will make Shock and Awe look like a vicar's knees-up.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
God, have mercy.
