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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The game that batters: the rugby thread
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Odd morning. Here I am in an open plan office in Wales, about forty people present, and not a word about rugby. Football, yes. England's cricket team's travails yes. Discussions of Friday night's game? No. Not even blaming the ref, which is a national pastime. Then again, the only thing he missed was a trip, by someone who claims not to be a dirty player. OK then, you're a cheat. Is that better?
Elsewhere weren't the Irish lucky? And weren't France poor one Harinordorquy went off and that great hairy oaf Chabal came on! I don't like Harinordorquy but he's mighty effective but what is Chabal for? They should have pulled away but almost let Scotland in. In Ansbro Scotland appear to have their best new centre since Scott Hastings. He almost made up for Nick De Luca.
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Oh dearie me.
After losing heroically in Paris last week Scotland lost pathetically yesterday, at home. Wasn't it the worst performance by an international team ever? I'm not even sure England have ever played quite that badly: we've been soundly thrashed, we've failed to put sides away but we haven't been as conclusively hopeless as Scotland were. The Princess Royal must be looking to lend her support to another sport. Korfball? Octopush? OK, ma'am, Curling it is.
Still, it's not all lost. Euan Murray, who dead-heated for the poorest performance of the day with Dan Parks, cannot play on Sundays, so he won't be there for Scotland's next game.
Note to England: stop giving away those penalties at the ruck. They didn't matter on Saturday but they will against France.
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
The long decline of Scottish Rugby continues.
Their only recent victories seem to have been when teams, like our Wallabies, were overconfident and let their psychological guard down. Masters of surprise psychology at Murrayfield but otherwise totally undistinguished.
If Wales had lost against these inepts they would have deserved utter ridicule.
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Well...
Posts: 5107 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
There's something about Andy Robinson's coaching, isn't there?!
And while we're on coaching, it looks like Johnson must be taking a back seat at the England training ground. I can't believe that it's his influence inspiring that gorgeous support running. On any other day, the man-of-the-match would have gone to Haskill who I thought played brilliantly. But when is it a bird, is it a plane, no it's Chris Ashton scores four tries it's a bit tough to give it to anyone else.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9079 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Yay! A (narrow) win for England. Not a great match to watch and I suspect one that flew by for the players. England reduced the penalty count compared to their previous matches, which won the game IMHO. Scotland next at Twickenham on 13th March the Ireland in Dublin on 19th March.
Had Italy's goal kicking been as good as England's they would have beaten Wales, but it wasn't, and that's been their problem for years.
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Nothing like a try to spur on your iffy goal kicker! Mirco Bergamasco was having a very mixed afternoon, then he had to kick a tricky conversion from which point he delivered! Italy's biggest win ever: they have beaten France before, but that wasn't in the six nations. This was the real thing.
Wales v Ireland, OTOH, was horrible. Did anyone spot a redeeming feature? OK, Sean O'Brien and Sam Warburton did well, but back row players always get noticed.
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
I reckon this will change the dynamic in Dublin next week, and probably not in England's favor. Ireland now have to bounce back and prove themselves, but my main theory is that they tend to choke in big games. Now that they can't do the Grand Slam I reckon it takes the pressure off them so that they can perform.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9079 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
England damn near threw it away against Scotland today, failing to retain the ball legally at least ten times. If thy don't improve there will definitely not be a grand slam.
ps: anyone got an idea why Andy Robinson took Ruaridh Jackson off and replaced him with Dan Parks? Mike Blair or Rory Lawson was a good call, but Jackson is far better.
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
England damn near threw it away against Scotland today ...
Not quite nearly enough. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"It's not so much the toes", said Piglet, "as the ears". A.A. Milne
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 12544 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Sep 2006
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Wales v Ireland, OTOH, was horrible. Did anyone spot a redeeming feature? OK, Sean O'Brien and Sam Warburton did well, but back row players always get noticed.
Redeeming feature - I watched Wales win at home against Ireland for the first time since my teens! No wonder my kids thought I was losing it when I was bouncing up and down at the final whistle!
Technically dreadful, even ignoring the 'ballgate' saga - back to ping-pong, with kickers regularly missing touch or hitting the waiting backs with suspicious accuracy. But, for the sides' spectators and (IMHO) the unworried neutral, it was a fascinating and exciting game that was only ever a good move away from a change of lead, where the result was in doubt till the final whistle, and where there was a lot of end-to-end movement (that last may have been the effect of sitting in the lower stand, mind). Only three scrums, apparently, and 18 penalties, which could be put down to a generally poor refereeing performance - knock-ons and off-sides were largely ignored, plus the interpretation of the touch-line varied by official.
I rarely come out of a game being able to pick good players and it was made much harder this time because I couldn't get a match programme. I saw no reason for O'Gara to be taken off when he was; Lee Byrne needs a better pair of boots, as he fell over every time he tried to change direction; Tommy Bowe was everywhere.
A win's a win, though - now for the French, who could either bulldoze us to get the memory of Rome from their minds or do a Marechal Petain and collapse under pressure. Who knows?
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2617 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
I think we should have a sweepstake on when Andy Robinson collapses with a heart attack. He seems to be an unusually angry man, even by the standards of sports coaches. My bet would be at 55 minutes in the final group game of the world cup. Any other guesses?
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I think we should have a sweepstake on when Andy Robinson collapses with a heart attack. He seems to be an unusually angry man, even by the standards of sports coaches. My bet would be at 55 minutes in the final group game of the world cup. Any other guesses?
Andy Robinson hasn't been the same man since 'The Chief' put this tackle on him a few years ago!
(at the end of the clip).
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
That made my eyes water.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
England! Oh England! Gosh that was embarrassing. I'm going to get some stick back in the office on Monday irrespective of the result of France v Wales (kick off in about ten minutes).
Well done Ireland and especially coach Declan Kidney for getting the side to play exactly the right game (ie, a lot like the Scots did last week, only better).
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Most important game since the World Cup final in 2007, and we don't turn up!
We were atrocious. Lazy around the park, not supporting the ball carrier or committing enough men to the breakdown, sloppy with ball in hand, tactically abysmal kicking from hand, our decision making sucked, and tackling was woeful.
Johnson would have been livid with that kind of performance of a player so I can hardly think what the dressing room would have been like after the final whistle.
And the worst part of it all? I watched the game in an Irish pub. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9079 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
And Scotland won a game. At Murrayfield. We can die happy.
Posts: 15549 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And Scotland won a game. At Murrayfield. We can die happy.
And even scored a couple of tries.
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Blog has moved home.
Posts: 1733 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
I would say something about the England performance, but I'd be breaking my Lent promise not to say rude words ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posts: 5073 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
England! Oh England! Gosh that was embarrassing. I'm going to get some stick back in the office on Monday irrespective of the result of France v Wales (kick off in about ten minutes).
Luckily for you, we did badly enough (ending up fourth AGAIN) that I doubt you've had much stick. At least it wasn't Wembley '99 again!
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2617 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
There have been some cracking games in the Super 15 tourney this year, notably last week when the Queensland Reds got up in the last minute to beat the Canterbury Crusaders by one point, after they had gone end to end (mostly by running) for the previous 79 minutes.
But what can this and similar games tell us about likely performances at the World Cup? Perhaps that Dan Carter and Quade Cooper in their different ways are streets ahead of other 5/8 running around, especially now that Cooper has learnt some defensive skills.
Perhaps also that penalty kicking can make a winning edge in tight games - and so therefore can the lottery of scrum penalties.
What do other shipmates think?
[ 09. June 2011, 09:48: Message edited by: Tukai ]
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" If someone has the answers to all the questions, that is the proof that God is not with them" - Pope Francis
Posts: 351 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
It's right that penalty kicking can make a difference: too many teams base their defence on conceding three-point penalties instead of five (or seven) point tries. There may even be a case for a 'penalty escalator', so that any after a threshold are worth more points, to discourage this highly professional but utterly cynical method.
Scrum penalties are mighty difficult. We need two clued-up officials, one on each side for a start and utterly rigorous implementation of the 'binding' laws. Anyone who has played at prop, in just one competitive modern game, will know the difference between being held on the arm and on the body of their shirt. I'm sure some other offences could be declared technical and therefore subject to a free-kick or another scrum.
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
There have been some cracking games in the Super 15 tourney this year, notably last week when the Queensland Reds got up in the last minute to beat the Canterbury Crusaders by one point, after they had gone end to end (mostly by running) for the previous 79 minutes.
And now these same two teams will [deservedly] contest the final next weekend.
[ 03. July 2011, 09:26: Message edited by: Tukai ]
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" If someone has the answers to all the questions, that is the proof that God is not with them" - Pope Francis
Posts: 351 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
It should be a rivetting Super 15 Final here at Suncorp Stadium.
I'm not even going to pretend to wish the Crusaders good luck. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Well...
Posts: 5107 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
I've got a question about the England away shirt fiasco. (Even Jonah Lomu has weighed in today.)
Isn't the NZ away strip white? (And was white when the WC was held in the UK?) If so then how is that any different in reverse?
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Consider all questions answered ... by and large I think the All Blacks have only worn white when playing France in black mud (to their detriment!)
Thanks Zappa.
So why all the fuss then?
If it is okay for NZ to have an all white away strip why is it so sacrilegious for England to have an all black away strip? (Especially since Lomu picks up on the fact that England is known for its white strip?)
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
So long as we don't get the farce of a Scotland v New Zealand match a few years ago when both teams wore variations of their traditional strip that made it all but impossible to tell the difference! Murky day, Scotland in dark blue, some black and white trim; New Zealand in black, grey and white trim. I think the referee handled the game on the basis that a) New Zealand players don't make mistakes b) except that Richie McCaw will be offside at any time.
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I had to laugh at the announcement of the England team for the weekend 'friendly' against Wales. England v Wales? Friendly? Who are they kidding!
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Herrick
Shipmate
# 15226
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Posted
Entertaining game this evening (for New Zealanders).
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A careless shoestring in whose tie
I see a wild civility
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
World Cup warm-up matches are rarely of any quality but yesterday's Scotland v Ireland game set a record for ring-rustiness. The England v Wales match was better, except for Morgan Stoddart's broken leg; hope you get well soon ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
It was interesting to watch how England played. I know it wasn't their first choice team (and it wasn't Wales' either) but it was a bit worrying to see their defensive system broken down for the first try and the disallowed one. I'm sure other teams will notice...
The set pieces were good (apart from one lineout on the Welsh 5-metre line which went astray), and England's scrum was dominant for much of the game. The breakdowns seemed to be fairly fluid (helped by some tight refereeing) so that must mean that the back row had a decent outing.
Otherwise, I feel that Shaw and Armitage have staked out a strong claim for a place in the squad, but I don't agree with Stuart Barnes' ravings about Wilkinson. He had a sturdy game, and kicked well, but his distribution was nowhere near as good as Flood's, and I thought England were somewhat lacking in attack.
Finally, if I was a Welshman* I would be seething about the commentary. It was painfully Anglo-centric, and Barnes had almost nothing to say about the Welsh team or their prospects going forwards. Perhaps Barnes should have been replaced by a Welshman (or at least a neutral) for the game, and Sky should definitely consider it for next week.
* and with apologies to Catatonia, every day I thank the Lord I'm not.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9079 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Have to agree with you there. England were strong without being outstanding up front and the referee was just about Man of the Match. The puff round here was that Wales looked faster and fitter, which was true, but they have just come back from a fitness camp. If they aren't careful they will have peaked too soon.
Wilkinson was at fault for Wales first try and the disallowed one. His defence has been crucial to England's performance over the years and if he isn't doing that right better sides will make hay. I've got doubts over Hodgson too, but that's because he's simply not good enough!
We need another genuine no 8 too: Haskell hasn't the feet for it which is the key to defensive scrums on your own put-in (says a failed no 8).
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Oh, and isn't Rhys Priestland the spitting image of Ronan O'Gara?!
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9079 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Oh, and isn't Rhys Priestland the spitting image of Ronan O'Gara?!
There are similarities and he is from the Wild West of Wales, like most of the great Welsh fly-halves, and that's hardly a day's coracle paddling from Ireland, so they easily could be related.
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Herrick
Shipmate
# 15226
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Posted
Thanks Zappa, the wobblies surprised most of us here too. Hope we can show that form in the world cup. But after last weeks game the ABs must be favourites.
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A careless shoestring in whose tie
I see a wild civility
Posts: 1194 | From: NSW | Registered: Oct 2009
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Watched the second half of US vs. Canada last night. Admittedly at altitude in Colorado but still.....neither team is going to worry Tonga or Samoa, let alone the 6 nations teams they will play. I suspect there will be some very very lopsided scores, again.
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Oh well...
Posts: 4620 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
At least the Tri-Nations is competitive! The Six Nations, the Pacific Islands and Argentina are engaged in warm-up matches which are achieving little other than injuring some important players and exposing others as not fit for purpose*. The matches are nothing to write home about either.
Wales were very pleased to beat England but to be honest England were clueless! They had obviously practiced with the Flood-Ashton moves in mind and had no Plan B when Ashton pulled out. Wales defence was exception but England should have had the game won by half-time. Fortunately for Wales, England played pretty stupid rugby, which isn't unusual.
*Not necessarily a total waste; Moody's a crock, Thompson is past it and Hodgson, Hape & Tindall form a midfield partnership from the Dark Ages.
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
I hate losing to Wales. Doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it still sucks. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9079 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
# 1654
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Posted
I'll be heading along to Murrayfield for the Italy game this weekend. I'm looking forward to it, although the last time I went to see those 2 teams play, the result was memorable for all the wrong reasons
Scotland v Italy 2007
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- insert randomly chosen, potentially Deep and Meaningful™ song lyrics here -
Posts: 9552 | From: The shores of the Loch | Registered: Nov 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
I'll be heading along to Murrayfield for the Italy game this weekend. I'm looking forward to it, although the last time I went to see those 2 teams play, the result was memorable for all the wrong reasons
Scotland v Italy 2007
I'd forgotten about that. There aren't 'own tries' in Rugby but the opening few minutes gave three to which that description could be applied!
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The Six Nations, the Pacific Islands and Argentina are engaged in warm-up matches which are achieving little other than injuring some important players and exposing others as not fit for purpose
For all three Pacific Island teams, the warm-up matches are important - particularly the later ones - as they are the one chance to gather the players together from the various overseas leagues (England, France, Japan, NZ, etc ) in which they play as professionals. For Fiji, for example, probably only one or two of the starting side in the RWC will be based in Fiji, where all the players are 'amateur'. So getting the teamwork and combinations familiar with each other before the cup is much more important than for the Tri-nations or the Six nations squads.
As a guide to form, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji have all played each other, with one win and one loss each. They are still all looking a bit rusty, especially if compared to the Pacific Islanders A-squad (other wise known as the All Blacks).
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" If someone has the answers to all the questions, that is the proof that God is not with them" - Pope Francis
Posts: 351 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Sorry Tukai, I was loooking at this more from a Northern Hemisphere perspective. The genuine Pacific island sides do need warm-up games rather more.
In Cardiff last week the Welsh supporters sounded really worried about facing Fiji, Samoa, South Africa and Namibia in the World Cup. How many of their squad will be left standing after those four matches?
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I see Scotland acquitted themselves reasonably well in the Italy match. But they could have done even better.
Posts: 15549 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I hate losing to Wales. Doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it still sucks.
There are so many possible smilies in reply but I'll stick to one ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) . Not that I saw either game as I was in Spain at the time.
We Welsh now have an almost instinctive fear of Samoa sides (even though the defeat in '99 made no difference to the outcome of the Group) plus now we have the Fiji factor to contend with. At least we haven't sacked the manager just before the RWC as we did in 91, 95, 03... Of course, we could repeat 07 and sack him after the tournament instead!
The above may give you the impression that I have little hope for the Welsh team in NZ. That would be wrong - we always have hope - but if I were a betting man I wouldn't put money on Wales getting through the group stage.
Interesting to see how Eng v Ire goes when both squads have already been announced - will anyone take risks?
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2617 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I hate losing to Wales. Doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it still sucks.
There are so many possible smilies in reply but I'll stick to one . Not that I saw either game as I was in Spain at the time.
We Welsh now have an almost instinctive fear of Samoa sides (even though the defeat in '99 made no difference to the outcome of the Group) plus now we have the Fiji factor to contend with. At least we haven't sacked the manager just before the RWC as we did in 91, 95, 03... Of course, we could repeat 07 and sack him after the tournament instead!
The above may give you the impression that I have little hope for the Welsh team in NZ. That would be wrong - we always have hope - but if I were a betting man I wouldn't put money on Wales getting through the group stage.
Wales will get through, but with too few players to continue effectively. Back in the seventies JPR started a match at flanker (against Australia IIRC) and it could be Mike Phillips this time round!
quote:
Interesting to see how Eng v Ire goes when both squads have already been announced - will anyone take risks?
It's a particularly stupid time to hold a warm-up match. I'm surprised the Irish agreed to it.
[ 22. August 2011, 12:26: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
wallabies utterly fired up
Wallabies triumphant.
First the Super 15.
Then the Tri Nations.
What are the odds of the entire AB side spontaneously combusting from the pressure of the WC build up?
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
wallabies utterly fired up
Wallabies triumphant.
First the Super 15.
Then the Tri Nations.
What are the odds of the entire AB side spontaneously combusting from the pressure of the WC build up?
And the Hopes of The Nation.
AB sides have failed to turn up to a crucial match at least three times now. I reckon it's caused by The Hopes of The Nation.
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To Let
Posts: 20674 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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