homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Fucking Guns (Page 3)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ...  34  35  36 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion

Personally I don't see their particular brand of manipulation as any more insidious than the financial lobby, or the pharmaceutical lobby, or the military/defense lobby.

Fair point. Still insidious, though. Last time I heard a story like Lamb Chopped 's was one of my ex- Mormon friends describing being dogged by her former ward.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I think that ignoring the shooter is a mistake, because it is not random. Aside from the gun control issues, people who are fine do not do things like this. I know people with mental health issues and developmental disorders are usually not violent more at risk from others than a risk to others.

But.

People who do things like this are almost always seriously disturbed and almost always showing significant signs of deterioration first. Notoriety is a side issue, and suppressing talk about the perpetrator potentially risks suppressing the debate that needs to happen about mental health care.

Not necessarily ignoring him, just making the death toll by gun the focus of the problem.
Definitely we need to ask how someone "showing signs of deterioration" ( as the case may be) got access to a weapon.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

 - Posted      Profile for romanlion     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
@ romanlion

That looks like a non-sequitur to me. Why should they lobby you?

I didn't suggest that they should. You directed a post @me all about the NRA. I figured you must have pegged me as a member/supporter of theirs. I am not, and have never been.

They always pop up quickly in these discussions though. They are the boogeymen behind those awful, heinous guns. Never mind that whatever legislation they manage to defeat wouldn't have prevented an incident like yesterday anyway.

That is why I asked earlier in the thread what "common sense" gun laws look like. What specific new regulation could have been in place that would have stopped that guy from having 10 or 15 guns?

Prohibit anyone attending a "special school" from owning firearms? You might as well get right to KA nephew's point and throw blacks and hispanics in for good measure for all the traction that effort would get.

If Obama truly were bold and brave he would say what he means. Anyone touting the merits of Australian-styled gun laws is talking about bans and confiscation. Everyone knows it, so just say it, and quit being chicken-shit about it. Unless of course you have lifetime secret service protection and you prefer the political hammer in your hand rather than upside your head.

--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1337 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm with Kelly. All you non USAians -- denigrate us, please. Accuse us of being uncivilized, at length, on all your talk shows and editorial pages. Write sarcastic stinging articles. Mock us without mercy for our dingbat gun laws. Assert that China, or Australia, or some -- any! -- other country has fewer random gun deaths per capita. See if you can generate a meme that'll go wild on the interwebs. Naughty videos! Twerking starlets! Something involving a cat!

See if you can shame our lawmakers into action. We, the citizenry, have tried. Give us some covering fire from across the water, if you will.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4612 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Actually, I said the opposite-- I said we need help escaping from the cultural jail that Rupert Murdoch, the industrial military complex, and the NRA has stuck us in.

Unlike Ani, I don't wanna flee to Canada. I want my own home to be better. And I want to teach the kids, we can be better.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In other news-- Oh, you little piece of shit.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
RooK

Rocky Mountain SLAYER
# 1852

 - Posted      Profile for RooK   Author's homepage   Email RooK   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Keep the fucking guns.

Charge $100 a bullet in taxes, to be spent on social assistance programs.

Posts: 14944 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
That is why I asked earlier in the thread what "common sense" gun laws look like.

You've already had your answer. You can stop asking.

The rest of the planet (pretty much, maybe excepting maybe Somalia and IS, where gun-owning is probably mandatory) knows what "common sense" gun laws look like.

--------------------
Lost in Space

Posts: 8229 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:


That is why I asked earlier in the thread what "common sense" gun laws look like. What specific new regulation could have been in place that would have stopped that guy from having 10 or 15 guns?

This is what I have to do to work in my field:
Supply my fingerprints.
Supply a record of my immunizations.
Submit to a criminal background check.
Have three or four personal references on hand.
Answer a list of questions (under penalty of fraud) about mental and physical health issues.

I think anyone picking up a freaking piece should have to do something similar. (Minus immunization.)

[ 02. October 2015, 20:19: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Keep the fucking guns.

Charge $100 a bullet in taxes, to be spent on social assistance programs.

Did you say this before? I feel like I heard it before. In any case-- good idea as any.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I get that Americans must feel pretty pissed off when the British, Australians, New Zealanders and most continental Europeans - and heck, Canadians - sit in moral judgement and say, 'Well, you've only got yourselves to blame ...'

I don't believe that American citizens are intrinsically more violent or selfish than anyone else - nor that the rest of us can polish our halos - but somewhere along the line they've bought into a wierd might is right and Hollywood quick on the draw thing ... in some contexts that can be helpful - like when Nazi Germany is on your doorstep - but even then there was international co-operation, it was not a unilateral thing ...

Romanlion's 'the Brits should have fought harder' thing reveals the mindset at its most crass and simplistic. Parliament could not have predicted in 1783 that the wayward colonies would turn into an economic superpower - and the UK's economic dominance also lay in the future at that stage - and arguably, the loss of the US colonies enabled Britain to expand her Empire elsewhere ...

Not only that, wars aren't only won or lost out of the barrel of a gun. The war with the colonies was expensive and unpopular and nobody liked the idea of fighting what were still considered to be our own people.

An American once told me that the British had been the only nation in history which had had the 'guts' to invade the US. WTF?!

Guts didn't come into it. Who else would have been in a position to do so - back in 1812-14 which is when he was thinking of. The Spanish weren't in a position to do so.

The French weren't interested - they sold Louisiana to fund their European adventures. Who else would have wanted to? The Scandinavians?

Dickheads like romanlion give a great nation a bad name.

When I think of the USA I'd like to think of Shipmates like Kelly Alves and Mousethief, Cliffdweller and Lamb Chopped not knuckle-dragging morons like romanlion.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14689 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion

Personally I don't see their particular brand of manipulation as any more insidious than the financial lobby, or the pharmaceutical lobby, or the military/defense lobby.

Fair point. Still insidious, though. Last time I heard a story like Lamb Chopped 's was one of my ex- Mormon friends describing being dogged by her former ward.
To be fair, I can think of one plumber and two magazines that behaved exactly the same. ETA: And one boyfriend.

[ 02. October 2015, 20:38: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19540 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As I try to distract further myself to not think of other dead people close to me and funerals upcoming, may I ask, would it be possible to regulate behaviour: to make it absolutely forbidden to carry around a gun unless you have a permit for it, and a lawful activity to use it for, i.e., you have a hunting licence, you're taking it for repair, you're taking it to a target range. All other circumstances are offences, more or less the regulations in many countries. The restriction of ownership is another matter, this is about behaviour.

Sure it might be controversial or hard, and you might find that police in enforcing it have to kill a few thousand people who are not threatening anyone, but were not obedient to the law, and didn't obey the police directions when observed. Statistics on the googleyweb suggest more than 30,000 people are killed per year by guns in USA. Would 10% or 20% or 50% of this amount be acceptable to kill during enforcement? 3, 6 or 15,000? It might be good use of your army.

You could also adopt the Israeli idea and demolish the homes of people who carry around guns. Or maybe chop off their hands like our Saudi Arabian allies do. Or maybe use drones and pinpoint take out people with guns when needed. A little aggressive enforcement might go a long way.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10289 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This is what it looks like to the rest of the world.

I'm due to visit the US next year. There were 22 mass shootings (by this metric) in that state alone. That's just peachy.

--------------------
Lost in Space

Posts: 8229 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That article references the Shooting Tracker site Golden Key referenced on page 1, which is a crowdsourced effort of Americans sending news of local shootings to their database. So, the stories that inform what " the rest of the world sees" are coming from here. I believe it started on Reddit, provoked by high pissedoffedness about mass media underreporting. ( Chck their info page to see the ridiculous justifications the major news outlets use to not call something a "mass shooting".)


So, for every upload you see on that site, picture someone in Akron, Boston, Chula Vista, Tacoma, Tempe, whereever, sitting down and typing in a URL for a local news item. That's how many of us care about this shit.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess in my head what state it is [Frown] .

[ 02. October 2015, 21:08: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Guardian is also running The Counted, because apparently, your government says you're not to be trusted with statistics.

878 people killed after interacting with the cops. That makes me feel extra safe.

--------------------
Lost in Space

Posts: 8229 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The Guardian is also running The Counted, because apparently, your government says you're not to be trusted with statistics.


No surprise there.

Thank God for the people providing crowdsource info tracking sites, though. That way people have some chance of having their voices heard.

[ 02. October 2015, 21:25: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
(Thanks, Gamaliel.)

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

 - Posted      Profile for romanlion     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Romanlion's 'the Brits should have fought harder' thing reveals the mindset at its most crass and simplistic.

Had you bothered to read my post in proper context, (i.e. a response to an even more crass, simplistic, downright stupid comment from another limey shitbag such as yourself) perhaps you would have taken it for what it was and not launched into a political/historical justification for the collapse of your empire...

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


Dickheads like romanlion give a great nation a bad name.

When I think of the USA I'd like to think of Shipmates like Kelly Alves and Mousethief, Cliffdweller and Lamb Chopped not knuckle-dragging morons like romanlion.

But based on those tired, limp-dicked attempts at insult along with the gratuitous ass-licking of anyone with a higher post count than you it's clear that you weren't the most clever or creative from your litter.

--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1337 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
God, I forgot what a douche you are.

And "limey?" Really? Who do you think you are, Duchess?

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Had you bothered to read my post in proper context, (i.e. a response to an even more crass, simplistic, downright stupid comment from another limey shitbag such as yourself)

That would be me, the other limey shitbag. What did I say again? Oh, yes. That the alternative to some sort of gun control is for these mass murders to keep on happening at the rate of over 10,000 per year.

--------------------
Citizen of the world.

Posts: 31515 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I thought no true Scotsman is a limey.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Had you bothered to read my post in proper context, (i.e. a response to an even more crass, simplistic, downright stupid comment from another limey shitbag such as yourself)

That would be me, the other limey shitbag. What did I say again? Oh, yes. That the alternative to some sort of gun control is for these mass murders to keep on happening at the rate of over 10,000 per year.
Fuck it, I don't see how the buyback scheme wouldn't do something.Even if it only reduced the toll to 5,000

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That would be me, the other limey shitbag. What did I say again? Oh, yes. That the alternative to some sort of gun control is for these mass murders to keep on happening at the rate of over 10,000 per year.

Meh. You have to remember that he's a fully signed up member of the "We know how to stop this from happening but refuse to act because we are spoilt, petulant, selfish moral pygmies" club.

It would be an interesting exercise, however, to ask him how many US citizens would have to die before it became necessary to Do Something. Clearly 10,000 a year just isn't enough.

--------------------
Lost in Space

Posts: 8229 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

 - Posted      Profile for saysay   Email saysay   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Keep the fucking guns.

Charge $100 a bullet in taxes, to be spent on social assistance programs.

Great plan. If what you're looking for is another civil war.

There are still quite a few people in this country who use guns in order to get food.

Most gun nuts I know already have a lot of ammunition stockpiled.

I'm not sure I want people to have less practice firing guns and actually hitting their targets because ammunition is too expensive for them to practice.

Also, the vo-tech crowd retains knowledge of how to cast metal into various shapes. Like, the shape of a bullet. Or a gun.

Now, I'll grant you that a mentally ill person who has got it in his head to shoot up a school may not have this particular skill set or the time and patience to actually make their own gun and ammunition, so there could still be value in making it more difficult to get large amounts of ammunition...

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2902 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390

 - Posted      Profile for ldjjd         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As for the Second Amendment, I would think that "strict constructionists"/"literal meaning" advocates would arge that citizens should be allowed to have exacty the same weapons (and no more)that were avaiable when the amendment was approved. They wouldn't want an unconstitutional expansion of that amendment.

Law enforcement and the military would of course be exempt according to a literal reading.

People could still hunt and defend their homes. Mass murder would be impossible.

Posts: 291 | Registered: Oct 2012  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
roman lion--

If you're going to quote Twain in your sig, then at least raise the level of your insults, sir!

Twain insults (Quotations.about.com)

Insults (TwainQuotes.com).

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16960 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That would be me, the other limey shitbag. What did I say again? Oh, yes. That the alternative to some sort of gun control is for these mass murders to keep on happening at the rate of over 10,000 per year.

Meh. You have to remember that he's a fully signed up member of the "We know how to stop this from happening but refuse to act because we are spoilt, petulant, selfish moral pygmies" club.

It would be an interesting exercise, however, to ask him how many US citizens would have to die before it became necessary to Do Something. Clearly 10,000 a year just isn't enough.

Well, if we're into US citizens killed by guns, it already is much more than 10000. That figure was for murder. If you add in accidental deaths and suicides then I would be very surprised if you didn't add an extra 20000, or more, dead Americans.

And, fuck it, those numbers include one of our own.

--------------------
Citizen of the world.

Posts: 31515 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

 - Posted      Profile for saysay   Email saysay   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
As I try to distract further myself to not think of other dead people close to me and funerals upcoming, may I ask, would it be possible to regulate behaviour: to make it absolutely forbidden to carry around a gun unless you have a permit for it, and a lawful activity to use it for, i.e., you have a hunting licence, you're taking it for repair, you're taking it to a target range. All other circumstances are offences, more or less the regulations in many countries. The restriction of ownership is another matter, this is about behaviour.

Would regulations like that stop the killings in the US?

(Mostly they just seems to have led to the largest prison population in the world and a bunch of people have no say in how the government works).

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2902 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
As I try to distract further myself to not think of other dead people close to me and funerals upcoming, may I ask, would it be possible to regulate behaviour: to make it absolutely forbidden to carry around a gun unless you have a permit for it, and a lawful activity to use it for, i.e., you have a hunting licence, you're taking it for repair, you're taking it to a target range. All other circumstances are offences, more or less the regulations in many countries. The restriction of ownership is another matter, this is about behaviour.

Would regulations like that stop the killings in the US?

(Mostly they just seems to have led to the largest prison population in the world and a bunch of people have no say in how the government works).

Regulations alone no. Regulations plus enforcement yes. I'll bet many of the reg's required already exist and all that's needed is for police chiefs to get themselves out of gear. It would however make them unpopular.

--------------------
If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?

Posts: 23627 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

 - Posted      Profile for saysay   Email saysay   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, fuck it, those numbers include one of our own.

Two.

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Regulations alone no. Regulations plus enforcement yes. I'll bet many of the reg's required already exist and all that's needed is for police chiefs to get themselves out of gear. It would however make them unpopular.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you truly understand the conditions on the ground in the US. I know it's hard - it's hard even for us because it's such a big country and the laws vary from state to state - but a lot of those laws have been enforced for a long time in a lot of places. Granted, stop-and-frisk has always been disproportionately enforced on black and brown men (leaving too many of them unemployed, unable to vote, and unable to receive federal benefits, etc.) instead of white NRA members, but I'm not convinced a lot more regulations are going to solve our violence problems.

I'm also not sure why you think enforcing them would make the police chiefs unpopular. Police killing people, particularly unarmed people, make them unpopular.

American culture is sick. I'm not sure governmental regulation can heal it. If you have any specific policy recommendations that haven't been tried (and haven't failed) in some American city, I'd certainly be willing to discuss them. But the US isn't Europe, both in terms of culture and the simple fact that we have so many guns that are already on the ground that even changing the gun laws now doesn't necessarily help stop the violence. People can blame the NRA for being too powerful and blocking federal legislation all they want, but I'm not sure programs that failed on a local level would suddenly succeed if only they were big enough (federal).

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2902 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
@ romanlion

That looks like a non-sequitur to me. Why should they lobby you?

I didn't suggest that they should. You directed a post @me all about the NRA. I figured you must have pegged me as a member/supporter of theirs. I am not, and have never been.
[snip]
That is why I asked earlier in the thread what "common sense" gun laws look like. What specific new regulation could have been in place that would have stopped that guy from having 10 or 15 guns?

Well you figured wrong about me. Whether or not you are a member or supporter of the NRA has nothing to do with the question of whether their lobbying strength prevents any gun reform legislation getting through Congress.

As to the effectiveness of the legislation which has failed so far, I can see no instant legislative solution to the gun culture woes of the USA. It will take a massive hearts and minds change and that could take decades.

How do you eat an elephant? One mouthful at a time. It will take a lot of patience and education to wean folks off the spurious protection afforded by owning guns. You just have to start somewhere. And surely anything is better than LaPierre's crassly simplistic view. Isn't it? Surely you can see that for the nonsense it is?

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20445 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No single measure can solve a problem that has so many contributing factors. People who say, "Well, X wouldn't have prevented Y" are conveniently ignoring whether X can prevent A, B, and C.

It's odd how when it comes to preventing gun deaths, American ingenuity and determination fail completely - apparently if there isn't an instant, perfect, complete solution to the problem, there's no point in even trying for partial solutions. That's pretty fucking pathetic from a bunch of people who think they're so fucking exceptional. It's like saying that since antibiotics can't cure cancer, they're useless. Or that since seatbelts won't protect you from a flying rock through your windshield, there's no point wearing them.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5222 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
... I'm not sure I want people to have less practice firing guns and actually hitting their targets because ammunition is too expensive for them to practice......

Won't make any difference. Cops, who presumably can get as much practice as they want and have to maintain a certain standard, regularly miss whatever they're shooting at in real-life situations, and those misses sometimes hit innocent bystanders. All those awesome shots in movies and TV are FICTION.

quote:
New York City police statistics show that simply hitting a target, let alone hitting it in a specific spot, is a difficult challenge. In 2006, in cases where police officers intentionally fired a gun at a person, they discharged 364 bullets and hit their target 103 times, for a hit rate of 28.3 percent, according to the department’s Firearms Discharge Report. ...In 2005, officers fired 472 times in the same circumstances, hitting their mark 82 times, for a 17.4 percent hit rate. ...
A Hail of Bullets

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5222 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
PV--

quote:
Originally posted by PilgrimVagrant:
Hmmm.

Seems to me the reason why the UK, and Australia, and New Zealand, etc, have been able to enact effective gun control laws is because we do actually love our neighbour, and regret his/her passing, and sorrow with his/her family. I am not persuaded the same is true of the US.

Cheers, PV.

Gee, thanks. Such insight, compassion, and wit. Take a long walk off a short pier.

[Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16960 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
How do you eat an elephant? One mouthful at a time. It will take a lot of patience and education to wean folks off the spurious protection afforded by owning guns. You just have to start somewhere. And surely anything is better than LaPierre's crassly simplistic view. Isn't it? Surely you can see that for the nonsense it is?

Perfection.
[Overused]

Also-- go get 'im, Golden Key

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Also, there's this on the whole Second Amendment thing.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 17865 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

 - Posted      Profile for Kelly Alves   Email Kelly Alves   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
From the article:
quote:
if the Founders hadn’t wanted guns to be regulated, and thoroughly, they would not have put the phrase “well regulated” in the amendment.
Exactly!

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 34993 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

 - Posted      Profile for saysay   Email saysay   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:

It will take a lot of patience and education to wean folks off the spurious protection afforded by owning guns.

If you think it is spurious rather than necessary, then we may not be able to converse. No matter how condescending anyone is.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2902 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:

It will take a lot of patience and education to wean folks off the spurious protection afforded by owning guns.

If you think it is spurious rather than necessary, then we may not be able to converse. No matter how condescending anyone is.
Protection might be necessary. What's spurious is the idea that guns provide protection. Again, only 1 in 23 uses of a household firearm are an actual case of successful protection. These statistics were widely circulated at the time of Sandy Hook, including here on the Ship.

Any other appliance that didn't work when you actually wanted it to, you'd take it back to the store, not vow to prevent the government from getting rid of it.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 17865 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
# 292

 - Posted      Profile for Timothy the Obscure   Email Timothy the Obscure   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Anyone touting the merits of Australian-styled gun laws is talking about bans and confiscation. Everyone knows it, so just say it, and quit being chicken-shit about it.
I'll say it--ban handguns and rifles with detachable magazines (you're not allowed to use them for hunting anyway, in most states). Repeal the 2nd Amendment if that's what it takes. It'll take a while to actually confiscate all of them, and it might get ugly, because the gun nuts don't really believe in democracy or the rule of law anyway, but that's no reason not to get started.

--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

Posts: 6101 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Couple of things:

--SmartGunLaws.org has thoughts and stats. Nothing on the Oregon shooting, yet.

--From Op-Ed News, a few years ago: a Colorado man wrote about why he bought guns, and why he got rid of them.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16960 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
quote:
Anyone touting the merits of Australian-styled gun laws is talking about bans and confiscation. Everyone knows it, so just say it, and quit being chicken-shit about it.
I'll say it--ban handguns and rifles with detachable magazines (you're not allowed to use them for hunting anyway, in most states). Repeal the 2nd Amendment if that's what it takes. It'll take a while to actually confiscate all of them, and it might get ugly, because the gun nuts don't really believe in democracy or the rule of law anyway, but that's no reason not to get started.
All sorts of ideas coem to mind

1. Find a good war somewhere and work off all the macho aggression there

2. Consider why you have the 2nd amendment - frontier and Native American wars and the like. Now, arm the native Americans on their little bit of what they have left, after the rest of the racists stole it, and let them have a go. A kind of rifle revenge shoot out. Mind you the level of health they have in comparison with the rest of the nation means they aren't in the best position to argue ....

3. Arm everyone man, woman and child - and invite a free for all. last one standing wins. It'd reduce the welfare bill y'know and there'd be a big redneck rush to get Obama first.

4. Get over the idea that when in disagreement pull a gun: the rest of us tend to use words - can be equally wounding I agree but at least there's survival

5. Sensibly, explore - really explore - the psyche behind gun ownership. Just because I can doesn't equate in an honest world to because I can then I must. Explore and deal with what it is in the American psyche that says the gun is always King and aggression always wins the day.

Posts: 3619 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
saysay

No need to converse. As orfeo says, studies have been made. The gun lobby has always put lot of effort into attempts to refute them.

The Philadelphia study.

But if that is too heavy or thought to be too selective, there is also this argument.

The Protection Paradox.

"The more people who own guns for self protection, the more shootings there will be."

"The widespread ownership of protective weapons increases the risks for everyone".

I really did not mean to condescend and I apologise for any impression of condescension I may have given. There is strong evidence and there are powerful arguments in support of the assertion that belief in the protection provided by gun ownership is ill-founded. Of course it will be true in some cases and they can always be cited. These will keep the protection paradox in play unless and until longer term solutions are put in place to help a better understanding.

[ 03. October 2015, 06:19: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20445 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Alan--

quote:
Well, I suppose that depends on whether people are thinking that, or just turned their brains to neutral and accepting what Fox News tells them. If someone has actually sat down and considered things and reached the conclusion "we need our guns to protect us from a liberal police state" then I'd say they're nuts, but their thinking. I don't think that's what happens though, is it? People just take what's fed them from the right wing media, and follow blindly, unthinkingly, where they are led.
I think it's a mixture. They're fed a lot of crap, yes, from the right wing media, and TV and film. And it's basically un-American to trust the gov't--that's why all the checks and balances. A couple of the founding guys even wrote that we might need a bloody revolution, now and again. Plus the pilgrims, pioneers, forging a new land, and fighting to protect your piece of it. Plus, for some people, a civil war that didn't turn out the way they wanted. Plus the Cold War. Plus a whole lot of changes (pick any you like) that scare a whole bunch of people, and that they don't understand. Plus American mythology and legends, exceptionalism, and a fascination with outlaws. (E.g., Jesse James.) Plus actual, real danger.

Plus...we've never managed to turn to the next page in our story. It's stuck. So we keep scribbling notes in the margins of our myths. If we can find a way to put *this* page to rest, turn the page, and start a new chapter of a new, less violent mythology, we might be able to get past our gun obsession. If not,...

[Tear]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16960 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Something I wonder, off and on:

The people (tbh, seems to be guys) who feel a need to grab fame and glory by dying in an outsized, violent way--why do they have to do something *bad*? Is that the only niche that their sickness allows them? Why not do something *good* that's dangerous?* Go on rescue missions. Train to fight wildfires. Volunteer with Ebola victims. Play Robin Hood. Heck, emulating John Brown might even be a step in the right direction--it would at least avoid killing innocent/non-complicit people.

Even something like base-jumping in a flight suit would be both very dangerous and much more positive. And might even be fun.

In "Starmind", the wonderful last book of an intriguing sci-fi trilogy by Spider & Jeanne Robinson, there are "rapturists"--the exact opposite of terrorists. They do good things in sneaky, sometimes illegal ways. Robin Hood meets Random Acts of Kindness.

Why not do that, or be the next Banksy, or do guerrilla gardening, or go on a mission with Greenpeace?

Is there any way to get potential shooters and actors-out to redirect their energies a bit? Like nudging a meteor away from Earth, rather than blowing it to smithereens or letting it destroy us??


NOTE: I'm not suggesting that anyone should actually do any of this, especially when it involves breaking the law or hurting anyone. I'm just asking why.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16960 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This comes back to the fact the shooters are usually quite seriously distrubed and their state is deteriorating. It is not just about what they want to do, it is about what they can do. Mercer got chucked out of army basic training after 28 days. He hadn't, according to most media reports, got more than very basic social skills - which would have stopped him doing most of the things you suggest.

Frankly, even when they engage in mass shootings they generally do it in such a haphazard fashion that they kill far fewer people than the weapons and ammo they bring would permit, if their fuctioning was less compromised.

[ 03. October 2015, 08:30: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 18936 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Spot on, Doublethink. And that argument points directly to the risks of "ease of access".

I've looked at Supreme Court rulings and the 2008 DC v Heller ruling (5-4) confirms the individual right to possess a firearm for traditionally lawful purposes. Some regulatory restrictions by state law are permitted in principle by this statement.

quote:
The Court stated that the right to keep and bear arms is subject to regulation, such as concealed weapons prohibitions, limits on the rights of felons and the mentally ill, laws forbidding the carrying of weapons in certain locations, laws imposing conditions on commercial sales, and prohibitions on the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. It stated that this was not an exhaustive list of the regulatory measures that would be presumptively permissible under the Second Amendment.
I think it has been pretty coy about clarifying that presumption of permissibility, but in principle it is there.

So states could indeed, at least in principle, regulate to restrict access to guns by the mentally ill. Have any tried to do so?

[Link to 2008 ruling.]

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20445 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

 - Posted      Profile for Doublethink.   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, that is why regulation matters. People who commit spree killings are not typical career criminals with the illegal support network and contacts that implies.

These shootings happen regularly, when was the last time you heard of one of these spree killers having a history of acting with others to commit crimes ? These are not usually people who go round and threaten people if they owe money, or steal cars to order.

These are people who struggle to connect with others and feel thwarted and persecuted in their lives. They are often odd enough to attract bullying in communal contexts that worsens the problem - and that may ultimately focus their anger on a particular target.

[ 03. October 2015, 10:00: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 18936 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Also, the vo-tech crowd retains knowledge of how to cast metal into various shapes. Like, the shape of a bullet. Or a gun.

And then there are 3D printers. I've heard of guns made that way. I would think you could probably make the bullet casing, then stuff it with whatever.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16960 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ...  34  35  36 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools