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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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Twilight, you seem to have missed my post above.

I have worked in an environment where we, all staff, were trained to intervene physically in challenging situations. About half the staff would not intervene or did so incorrectly when called to do so. This is physical intervention or restraint of young people acting dangerously in an education unit working with students who were known to be dangerous.

They were supposed not to be armed, as we were supposed to scan them for metal before they were allowed in, but some of the better moments were during the scanning process.

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Zacchaeus
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# 14454

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
...Wayne LaPierre, who was able to evade service in Vietnam by claiming mental issues. ...

Sounds like a legitimate claim to me.
There is a vast difference between a highly trained Team of people with full body armour and appropriate weapons waiting 3 hours before going in. And a single poorly trained individual on minimum wage with the wrong weapons, and no body armour, waiting until the appropriate people turned up.
Did he even know the was only one shooter? – have you seen the size of the school, campus – how one man could be expected to search the whole campus to find and kill the shooter I have no idea.
We have hindsight and know where he started and finished – the man on the ground would have found it more difficult to hear where the shots were coming from

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
...Wayne LaPierre, who was able to evade service in Vietnam by claiming mental issues. ...

Sounds like a legitimate claim to me.
That gets a [Overused]

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Whether he was a coward appears to me to be a distraction. It's whether he could have made a difference other than adding, one way or the other, to the body count.

And the notion that he could have entered the school, identified the shooter (who, let's not forget, walked out and was only arrested in the local Walmart), and shot them (with a pistol) sufficiently to prevent any further deaths? There's a certain amount of magical thinking involved there.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

His primary job was to be an armed presence at the school, to deter an armed shooter.

I don't think even that is true. His primary job is to deal with low-level crime involving students - theft, drug offences, student brawls, and so on.

On a regular day, he will spend very little of his time actively "guarding" anything.

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Doc Tor
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Oh, I don't doubt that. A school shooting of this kind, for any given school, will be a once-in-a-lifetime event.

The kids will be in more day-to-day danger from the gun the guard is wearing.

But ultimately, if the student with the AR-15 doesn't care there's an armed guard on duty, what you going to do?

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Twilight, you seem to have missed my post above.

I have worked in an environment where we, all staff, were trained to intervene physically in challenging situations. About half the staff would not intervene or did so incorrectly when called to do so. This is physical intervention or restraint of young people acting dangerously in an education unit working with students who were known to be dangerous.

They were supposed not to be armed, as we were supposed to scan them for metal before they were allowed in, but some of the better moments were during the scanning process.

I didn't miss it, I just don't get why it's directed at me. I don't see a lot in common with the scenario you're describing and the man I'm talking about. He was hired precisely for security, and he was required to be armed. He knew his job was to immediately make contact with any shooter inside the school and try to stop him. He was fired days ago for failing to do that.
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Curiosity killed ...

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So you don't see any connection between people being trained to intervene in stressful situations to protect young people and not being able to when push comes to shove? Even when this is a regular occurrence, initial and annual refresher training is provided to all staff? Whereas a shooting at a school is unlikely to happen more than once in a career.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...: He was hired precisely for security, and he was required to be armed. He knew his job was to immediately make contact with any shooter inside the school and try to stop him.

And, I call bullshit on that. If that actually is the job he was hired to do, then he had been given (and he accepted) an impossible job. You can't blame someone for failing to do the impossible. Or, alternatively you equip them with the ability to do the impossible - extensive enhanced combat training, military grade weapons and body armour (rather than the equivalent of expecting him to take a knife to a gun fight, which is what he had), a clear line of communication with someone who could give him real-time and accurate information on the number of shooters and their location. None of which he had ... and he was left with two options, commit suicide in rushing into an unknown scenario, or face the opprobrium of those who never have, and never will, face that situation. At least he has his life, though he's going to go down in infamy as the poor schmuck who was in the wrong place, at the wrong time, out of his depth, unprepared and untrained for the situation he faced.

There is of course an alternative to the impossible situation, the Kirk approach to the no-win scenario. You change the scenario. You do something about the craziness of a country where kids can legally own military grade hardware, you get the guns out of the hands of those who have no need of them, and you don't have people in schools shooting kids, and you don't have under-trained, under-equipped cops facing the no-win scenario of an active shooter in a school.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Zacchaeus
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# 14454

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Technically he resigned not fired.

His job title was school resource officer – not to play hide and seek with a mad gunman who had much bigger firepower than him.

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Barnabas62
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Twilight

I think he had a duty to reconnoitre, immediately, what was happening inside the building and on the basis of what he saw decide whether he had a chance of shooting the shooter, or doing more to defend the teachers and children. That doesn't mean he was forced to confront and fire on the shooter. It would depend on whether he had a clear shot from near enough to make it count. At this stage, we can't possibly know that.

I don't know what radio or mobile phone exchanges he had with the police about the situation on the ground. Or whether he got any immediate guidelines about what was best for him to do.

There is going to be an enquiry and I'm holding judgement until more details are known. Meanwhile it is pretty clear to me that, all things being equal, a sidearm up against a semi-automatic is not an equal contest.

romanlion, who knows a lot more about guns than I do, has not answered my question about whether he would go up against a shooter firing a semi-automatic if he had no body armour and only a sidearm. I'm sure the answer is "it depends". Even if you have an obligation as part of your job description, you aren't obliged to be stupid about the ways you fulfill that obligation.

None of this is making excuses for his actions or inactions. Nor am I making any judgment on whether he was some combination of symbolic reassuring presence, and potential fall guy.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
He was hired and trained to protect the children and he made no attempt to do it.

Where is the evidence that he was trained to tackle one (or possibly more) shooters, who were heavily armed, single handed? How many hours a week did he spend practising for the eventuality of needing to move through the school to locate and engage an unknown number of shooters? What sort of experience had he had before getting the assignment, had he shown himself to be cool under fire? To be a crack shot? To be able to quickly assess complex situations? And if so, why was he guarding a school where those skills were very unlikely to be needed rather than pounding the beat of crime ridden neighbourhoods where he was more likely to need to draw his gun and protect himself and others?

As far as I can tell he was not equipped to do so, without body armour (even of dubious value against semi-automatic gunfire). I don't know how things are in the US, but here when we see armed police responding to an incident they a) carry what look like suitable weapons (some form of rifle, not hand guns) with body armour, b) they approach the scene cautiously maintaining cover as much as possible, and c) they do so in teams such that someone can provide covering fire to take down the suspect should they start to shoot at the police. It always looks like a well-practised and rehearsed operation. Something that they spend hours every week practising in different environments.

Put simply, the policy of relying on cops permanently stationed at schools to protect people runs into massive problems because a) you want those cops to be trained and equipped for the job which is very expensive, and b) there are many other places in the same city where those skills could be more effectively used. So, you either spend a lot of money training and equipping cops so you have the staff to have both trained cops at schools, or you prioritise where you deploy your resources - standing around a school where they will probably never be needed on the off-chance, or tackling criminals elsewhere on an almost daily basis. ISTM the most likely explanation for why you've a guy approaching retirement at the school is that the police prioritised their resources to tackle crime elsewhere, and thus this poor guy had not specialist training to tackle a shooter, didn't have the equipment needed, and was probably not picked because he had the temperament needed - because the police (probably rightly) decided that keeping the majority safer by using those really good cops elsewhere made sense.

And, putting yet more un-trained, or inadequately trained, people with guns in the environment is going to do diddly squat to make things any different if potential shooters can easily obtain weapons.

I totally agree that armed guards at schools is a bad idea, but I think if the school has hired one we have a right to expect he try to do what he was hired for. Whether his pay was high or low shouldn't matter when student's lives are at stake.

If he was just there to deal with low level crime he wouldn't need to be armed at all. He was and since the students had all seen "active shooter," training I would imagine he had, too. There's no rule that says you have to have an equal weapon to take on a killer. His handgun could have killed Cruz.

Once again everyone's implying that haste is the worst thing in the world and that first responders at school shootings should all take time to don armor, plan strategy, study school building plans, pass around pictures of the shooter and wait for swat teams. That's ridiculous when these mass shootings only require a few minutes to kill dozens. Sometimes it's best to go in and play things by ear and if that's dangerous that's part of the job.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Yes, the poor devil, all he was was a fig leaf. He could never have supplied any practical protection. One guard is insufficient anyway -- American high schools are vast campuses with miles of corridor.

This will cost you a Post click but is unutterably comic: The Orange Toupee says he would have rushed in to save the students. I believe we have seen this movie. It starred Harrison Ford as the President who was the action hero. As long as you have the script writer on your side and a good stunt double it works fine and makes for a good show.

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RooK

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# 1852

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Folks, you have to remember that Twilight is a creature of honour. She doesn't disagree with any of the facts or extrapolations being discussed. She merely expects that the guard should have died with honour, and that because he didn't it is therefore dishonourable.

The impossibility of it helping matters not one whit. And forgiveness belongs with other useless things like thoughts and prayers.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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I would have said this was a spoof site, but it's USA Today reporting that in Iowa you can get a gun permit even if you're blind. I agree, okay? Americans are crazy.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Meanwhile it is pretty clear to me that, all things being equal, a sidearm up against a semi-automatic is not an equal contest.

For reference, many police officer's sidearms are semi-automatic (Glock 9mm pistols are popular). The big difference is handgun vs rifle.

[ 26. February 2018, 19:14: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

If he was just there to deal with low level crime he wouldn't need to be armed at all.

And yet all across America, cops who just deal with low-level crime carry service weapons.

What fraction of US police officers do not routinely carry a gun?

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Folks, you have to remember that Twilight is a creature of honour. She doesn't disagree with any of the facts or extrapolations being discussed. She merely expects that the guard should have died with honour, and that because he didn't it is therefore dishonourable.

The impossibility of it helping matters not one whit. And forgiveness belongs with other useless things like thoughts and prayers.

Where did I imply that he didn't deserve forgiveness? I called him a coward. I don't think being a coward is even close to unforgiveable. I just think "coward," means he lost his nerve when it was important, very human but not ideal, particularly where young lives are concerned.

Neither do I insist he die with honour. I thought he should have made some effort. Crouching behind a car doesn't look like much effort to me. I don't agree with the idea that entering the school was certain, or even likely, suicide. As you say it was a big school and the shooter was not omnipotent no matter how powerful his gun.

Do any of you have any expectations at all from the people we pay to protect us? Should they just get pay checks all year for dressing up and eating donuts, or is it fair to expect them to come through for the big events?

Scot Peterson and the other deputies who did nothing are under examination and criticism from their peers for some reason and I don't think the entire police force is particularly unforgiving -- or adverse to prayer for that matter.
here

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

If he was just there to deal with low level crime he wouldn't need to be armed at all.

And yet all across America, cops who just deal with low-level crime carry service weapons.

What fraction of US police officers do not routinely carry a gun?

What fraction of the US police force do you think is not expected to risk his life in certain situations? I live in a small town with very little crime, but our policemen can and do occasionally go into very dangerous situations and confront criminals with guns.

Even domestic disputes can be deadly. When they knock on the door, they have no way of knowing if the person inside is armed, angry, drunk or all three. Yet they go in, they don't let the woman inside the house deal with it alone for fear of what they might walk into.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Meanwhile it is pretty clear to me that, all things being equal, a sidearm up against a semi-automatic is not an equal contest.

For reference, many police officer's sidearms are semi-automatic (Glock 9mm pistols are popular). The big difference is handgun vs rifle.
On average there are nearly 13,000 handgun homicides a year in the U.S. It's not handgun vs rifle. It's handgun vs soft tissue.

Everyone knew or at least highly suspected who the shooter was. He would have been obvious and making a huge amount of noise with that rifle. It's not magical to think someone with a gun could sneak around behind him and shoot him.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Twilight

Which was my reconnoitre point. He should have looked for an opportunity. There is no guarantee that he would have had one.

So far as comparative firepower is concerned isn't it better to await details. From what little I know a Glock 9mm against an AR15 still isn't an equal contest. But I could be wrong about that.

[ 26. February 2018, 20:27: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Ian Climacus

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# 944

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This will cost you a Post click but is unutterably comic: The Orange Toupee says he would have rushed in to save the students.

The man is bloody insane. Surely a doctor could section him. I almost drove off the road hearing this on the news this morning.

I think I may've typed out the words "It could not get much worse" on a Trump thread here. Sorry Americans. I had no idea how low he could go.

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RooK

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# 1852

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Twilight, I admit that I was being snarky at you. However, I also think that I helped explain some of your perspective to others on this thread. Clearly, it does not align with how you would want it said, but my belief is that it translates things into their paradigm a little better. Make of that what you will. Regardless of my snark, I consider you an ally on this topic.

On the topic of magic: specifically facing a combat rifle wielding gunman using a small-arms pistol. There are a couple effects that make it particularly harrowing.

First is accuracy. On a shooting range, I can reliably hit a human-sized target with a handgun up to a range of about 6 meters (and I'm being generous by including grazes). On the same range with an AR-15, I can land body-center hits from a standing position to about 10 meters. With the rifle braced, I'm good to more like 40 meters. And I suck, comparatively.

Second is power. 9mm rounds can penetate interior walls and desk-like objects, but their lethality is massively reduced. Meanwhile, rifle rounds will happily penetrate doors, desks, cars, and people. There is no such thing as cover, other than visually, outside of concrete. Those hero teachers who put themselves between the gunman and students? Those students probably died anyway.

The teeth-gnashing part, for me at least, is that assault weapons are only dangerous to our fellow citizens - they are of exactly zero use for defending against the government. The #gundamentalists are lying to themselves.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Hmm.

I thought it was about comparative accuracy and bullet power.

One man's courage is another's foolhardiness. One man's cowardice is another man's prudence.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This will cost you a Post click but is unutterably comic: The Orange Toupee says he would have rushed in to save the students.

The man is bloody insane. Surely a doctor could section him. I almost drove off the road hearing this on the news this morning.

I think I may've typed out the words "It could not get much worse" on a Trump thread here. Sorry Americans. I had no idea how low he could go.

I've two reactions. First is that arm chair bravery is so effing commendable (or video game and movie watching). Such a brave prezzie. Make America brave again!

Second, is please do rush in, any time there's a shooting, please do rush right in! And hurry! Go trumpy go! Show us how it's done you brave widdle boy!

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
...The #gundamentalists are lying to themselves.

Well put. Thank you, RooK.

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I'm not dead yet.

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Ann

Curious
# 94

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

... He would have been obvious and making a huge amount of noise with that rifle. It's not magical to think someone with a gun could sneak around behind him and shoot him.

I work in a building by an airfield. When one of the aircraft has its engine running, the sound reverberates and echoes off all the buildings around us. It's impossible to tell which direction the noise is coming from, even when you know where the runway is. As I walk to the carpark, at one point on my route, I can hear the aircraft sounding from the complete opposite direction. (It quite fascinates me that I can turn on the spot and still my guess would have been completely wrong.) When I get past the buildings, I can hear and see the aircraft on the taxiway so I know I wasn't hearing something in the air.

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Ann

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This will cost you a Post click but is unutterably comic: The Orange Toupee says he would have rushed in to save the students.

The man is bloody insane. Surely a doctor could section him. I almost drove off the road hearing this on the news this morning.

I think I may've typed out the words "It could not get much worse" on a Trump thread here. Sorry Americans. I had no idea how low he could go.

We must give up on saying that. It is tempting Providence. "Oh yeah? Hold my beer."

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:

So far as comparative firepower is concerned isn't it better to await details. From what little I know a Glock 9mm against an AR15 still isn't an equal contest. But I could be wrong about that.

No, it's not. You're not wrong. My point was that it wasn't a comparison between a "semi-automatic weapon" and a handgun: both the AR-15 and many officer's sidearms are semi-automatic.

As RooK points out, there's a huge difference in accuracy. This is basic physics - it's easier to point a long thing at a target than a short thing. (Plus a couple of ballistics features involving long barrel vs short barrel.) This is why you don't get into a handgun vs rifle shootout - you'll be dead before you get into effective range.

Unless, of course, you do what Twilight suggests, which is sneak up behind the shooter in your stockinged feet and kill him. That sounds rather more like the plot of a Bruce Willis movie than like a plan that might actually work, but I suppose there's always a chance.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Ann:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

... He would have been obvious and making a huge amount of noise with that rifle. It's not magical to think someone with a gun could sneak around behind him and shoot him.

I work in a building by an airfield. When one of the aircraft has its engine running, the sound reverberates and echoes off all the buildings around us. It's impossible to tell which direction the noise is coming from, even when you know where the runway is. As I walk to the carpark, at one point on my route, I can hear the aircraft sounding from the complete opposite direction. (It quite fascinates me that I can turn on the spot and still my guess would have been completely wrong.) When I get past the buildings, I can hear and see the aircraft on the taxiway so I know I wasn't hearing something in the air.
Yes. I didn't mean the shooter could be located by the sound, but that the person sneaking up behind him probably wouldn't be heard because of the sound. The shooter probably would have been obvious because he was the only person in the halls and the only one with a gun.
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Barnabas62
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Twilight


You could be right about dereliction of duty. The guy and the other three have to explain their actions. But I think the facts point in mixed directions. So in my mind I'm cutting all four some slack until all the evidence is out there.

Like Samuel Jackson said, I don't have any experience of a gun fight. So I'm withholding judgment. Seems fair to me.

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

Unless, of course, you do what Twilight suggests, which is sneak up behind the shooter in your stockinged feet and kill him. That sounds rather more like the plot of a Bruce Willis movie than like a plan that might actually work, but I suppose there's always a chance.

Because it's so much better to let a bunch of kids die than to look silly or take a chance, right, Learning Cniht?
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The shooter probably would have been obvious because he was the only person in the halls and the only one with a gun.

Which is precisely why law enforcement does not want teachers carrying guns (or parishioners with concealed carry in our churches). If there are one or more "good guys with a gun" running around in a horrible, chaotic situation, how are they supposed to figure out which one is the "bad guy with a gun"?

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

Unless, of course, you do what Twilight suggests, which is sneak up behind the shooter in your stockinged feet and kill him. That sounds rather more like the plot of a Bruce Willis movie than like a plan that might actually work, but I suppose there's always a chance.

Because it's so much better to let a bunch of kids die than to look silly or take a chance, right, Learning Cniht?
I don't think "looking silly" was what was giving the police officer pause.

I'm glad you can be so confident about how you would respond in such a situation. Given that the "chance" you're blithely denouncing him for not taking is the very high probability he'd lose his life, I'm not nearly as confident that I'd be part of the very slim percentage of humanity who wouldn't freeze in that situation.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I think I may've typed out the words "It could not get much worse" on a Trump thread here. Sorry Americans. I had no idea how low he could go.

To paraphrase Randy Bachman, I'm sure we ain't seen nothin' yet.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
To paraphrase Randy Bachman, I'm sure we ain't seen nothin' yet.

Randy has an excellent radio show on CBC Radio 1 and 2 Randy Bachman's Vinyl Tap. He uses "Taking Care of Business" as the show's theme.

(Hopefully you can listen if you want, don't know if it's regionally restricted)

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Stejjie
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The officer has defended his actions . According to his lawyer, he believed the shooting was taking place outside the building, not in it, and he took the action he’d been trained to take in those circumstances.

Edited for coding.

[ 27. February 2018, 05:46: Message edited by: Stejjie ]

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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Barnabas62
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Here is the press release by his lawyer.

No doubt the statement will be subject to detailed checks. I noted that he was accompanied by a security specialist when following up the initial report, and talked to various other people. Along with whatever video evidence exists, there should be means of verifying his statement of events.

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Golden Key
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I hope someone is keeping an eye on his mental health. People facing a lot of public blame and humiliation sometimes kill themselves.

I bet that, if he had gone in, however that turned out, he would've been criticized for not waiting for backup.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The shooter probably would have been obvious because he was the only person in the halls and the only one with a gun.

From what I understood from early newscasts, he timed or set things up so there would be kids in the hall--class change, maybe. So he'd have a whole lot of targets all at once.

I really doubt that the deputy could've saved the day.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
... This will cost you a Post click but is unutterably comic: The Orange Toupee says he would have rushed in to save the students. ...

With that same altruistic fervour, presumably, that took him to where the bullets were flying thickest in 'Nam

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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I hope someone is keeping an eye on his mental health. People facing a lot of public blame and humiliation sometimes kill themselves.

I bet that, if he had gone in, however that turned out, he would've been criticized for not waiting for backup.

Yep - and like everyone involved in this school - he's very likely to have survivor guilt anyway.

AFZ

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[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

Unless, of course, you do what Twilight suggests, which is sneak up behind the shooter in your stockinged feet and kill him. That sounds rather more like the plot of a Bruce Willis movie than like a plan that might actually work, but I suppose there's always a chance.

Because it's so much better to let a bunch of kids die than to look silly or take a chance, right, Learning Cniht?
Or be in entirely the wrong building, or be hunting for a shooter inside while they were outside, or pretty much any scenario in between.

You're being a dick. And not for the first time.

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Forward the New Republic

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simontoad
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I know this is hell, but this is a very raw subject for many people here, and not just the Americans, for whom it must particularly sting. That means that judgement might be off, and that we might tend to be more vicious than usual. I think it would be useful to treat each other gently, saying what we believe needs to be said, but remembering that none of us have the solution, or the power to implement what we might propose.

Kind Regards

Saint Toad of Simon

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Human

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Golden Key
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[Overused] simontoad/st. toad of simon

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I know this is hell, but this is a very raw subject for many people here, and not just the Americans, for whom it must particularly sting. That means that judgement might be off, and that we might tend to be more vicious than usual. I think it would be useful to treat each other gently, saying what we believe needs to be said, but remembering that none of us have the solution, or the power to implement what we might propose.

Kind Regards

Saint Toad of Simon

Thank you. Very important reminder on all sides
[Votive]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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No-one's immune to school shootings. This one is in north-western Saskatchewan. The decision has just been made that the shooter will have an adult versus youth sentence.

The situation as we understand it, is that the shooter shot two brothers in their home and then went to shoot in the school. The RCMP were called and cordoned off the school, and no, they did not go in to the school until they had enough personnel and a plan to do it. Police are not military who are trained to go into a potential firefight. In the Florida situation, the single officer armed with a handgun? Don't think it fits the training for police in general. Though perhaps the USA is different and police are supposed to approach these things like a military combat situation? And in both the Florida situation and LaLoche Saskatchewan situation, did anyone know if there was one shooter or several?

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Though perhaps the USA is different and police are supposed to approach these things like a military combat situation?

It would explain why they seem to shoot first and ask questions later any time they respond to a call.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The shooter probably would have been obvious because he was the only person in the halls and the only one with a gun.

Which is precisely why law enforcement does not want teachers carrying guns (or parishioners with concealed carry in our churches). If there are one or more "good guys with a gun" running around in a horrible, chaotic situation, how are they supposed to figure out which one is the "bad guy with a gun"?
One of the students at the school was temporarily mistaken for the shooter. Similar clothes and appearance and he was in a position that it was logical for a shooter to take. A coordinated group of policemen, with weapons pointed at him, took him into custody. Had a single officer, with no backup, seen him, he might well have been shot.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Though perhaps the USA is different and police are supposed to approach these things like a military combat situation?

It would explain why they seem to shoot first and ask questions later any time they respond to a call.
They are taught how to shoot, but not when to refrain. They also are susceptible to the same propaganda that the rest of America is. A person reading or watching American news would see a war zone when crime is actually down, overall.
And they watch the same bullshit films.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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