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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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What amazes me is that so many major companies with which Americans regularly do business (and even consider essential) were in bed with these succubi in the first place.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Brenda Clough
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The NRA was not always a minion of Moloch. Within living memory, it was merely the national office of gun clubs. They taught kids about cleaning hunting rifles, and did target shooting. They were harmless. Many of these ties date from then.

None of these 'sponsorships' really amount to much. So you get a 5% discount on your Avis car rental -- you have a similar discount with your Auto Club membership, your military ID, your teacher ID, or your membership in the AARP (the old people's group) or a buyers' club. It's a very common member benefit, costing the association nothing and the car rental company (or whatever) very little. (You can get a similar 5% discount on the Avis web site, or by renting the car when you book the airplane ticket or hotel room.) They are mainly an exercise in PR. The association gets 'benefits' to list under 'benefits of membership' and Avis gets to run its logo past more eyeballs.

So: Although it's good for these other businesses to sever ties with the NRA, it's not going to damage the NRA's bottom line. Much more useful is the ick factor. Nobody will play with you any more, you have cooties now. With luck this will translate over to congresspersons. I look for signs at campaign events, that big dollar donation amount plus the caption "The Price the NRA Paid for Your Soul." Or, another good one, "An A from the NRA? An F from Me!"

[ 24. February 2018, 15:22: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
What amazes me is that so many major companies with which Americans regularly do business (and even consider essential) were in bed with these succubi in the first place.

The ones listed in the article are not doing business with the NRA. They are offering discounts to NRA members. Same as they do to other fee-gathering lobbyists who fleece members who vote against the betterment of general society.
Not an attack on the elderly, just a reality check.
Business will do what they think will increase their revenue. Morals typically don't.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The NRA was not always a minion of Moloch. Within living memory, it was merely the national office of gun clubs. They taught kids about cleaning hunting rifles, and did target shooting. They were harmless. Many of these ties date from then. ...

My father was a longtime member; he was a hunter (we used to eat ducks and geese that he and my grandfather shot for special dinners) and black-powder target shooter. He didn't think much of the increasing politicization of the group, and he saw no reason for any civilian to own a semi-automatic weapon.

He taught my brother and me to shoot early on, and to respect and take proper care of firearms.

I have hesitated to mention this, but I once defended myself with a handgun. As a young woman, I was living in a gentrifying neighborhood, in a building with sub-par security. There were rapes in the building, and the Pater loaned me a revolver. One morning at about 2 a.m., the door to my studio apartment creaked open. I sat up and cocked the revolver - which didn't need cocking, but I was mostly interested in his going away without my being a victim. He did, with amazing alacrity. I moved soon after, and returned the revolver to my father.

I believe in the rights of hunters, and to self-defense, but not without serious regulation and licensing. No civilian needs a semi-automatic rifle. The NRA went off the deep end decades ago with this stuff, forgetting their core mission. They deserve all the opprobrium that's being hurled at them.

[Edited because I missed a typo despite preview. Dang.]

[ 24. February 2018, 16:32: Message edited by: Rossweisse ]

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Anglican_Brat
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Wayne La Pierre's speech was excruciatingly painful to hear. He contends that gun control is a means of tyranny and threatens to enslave liberty-loving Americans. I look at the countries with strict gun control from Japan to Australia to Europe and Canada, and as far as I know, their citizens do not seem to be enslaved, but enjoy the freedom of not being shot at by a semi-automatic rifle. Oh the tyranny of attending a school free from the threat of gun violence?

What is La Pierre's smoking? I would rather choose the "tyranny" of socialism that leaves my children safe and free from gun violence, then the American freedom of gun rights that have resulted in innocent people in their graves.

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Rossweisse

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I hope La Pierre is carrying on like a lunatic because he's afraid of losing some of his grotesquely oversized influence with government. I hope he's not really that nuts.

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I'm not dead yet.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I hope La Pierre is carrying on like a lunatic because he's afraid of losing some of his grotesquely oversized influence with government. I hope he's not really that nuts.

IIRC, he is one of the people of the coup that changed the direction of the NRA.
He is that nuts.

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I hope La Pierre is carrying on like a lunatic because he's afraid of losing some of his grotesquely oversized influence with government. I hope he's not really that nuts.

IIRC, he is one of the people of the coup that changed the direction of the NRA.
He is that nuts.

I suppose, if we are serious about keeping people who are not mentally well from guns, then that would entitle disarming most of the current leadership of the NRA.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I hope La Pierre is carrying on like a lunatic because he's afraid of losing some of his grotesquely oversized influence with government. I hope he's not really that nuts.

IIRC, he is one of the people of the coup that changed the direction of the NRA.
He is that nuts.

I suppose, if we are serious about keeping people who are not mentally well from guns, then that would entitle disarming most of the current leadership of the NRA.
And a significant portion of their membership.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Barnabas62
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I'm sure it's some kind of blind spot. It really isn't that difficult to consider the risk factors objectively. But a dogmatic belief in the Second Amendment seems to get in the way somehow.

"Gundamentalist" is an illuminating term.

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Brenda Clough
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From the Post, a rural American explains why guns are natural in his area.

Remember that the NRA is now the mask of the gun manufacturers. Hunters, ordinary people with guns, etc. are not who they serve. There is no problem in creation that Wayne LaPierre would not tell you could be improved by you buying a gun. Nothing! Can't knit a cable sweater? Plumbing issues? Fired from your job? A gun will help you with that.

Meanwhile the Horror of MarALago tells us that arming teachers would be very inexpensive. But he promised us that Mexicans would pay for that wall, so believe him if you like.

[ 24. February 2018, 23:00: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:

Remember that the NRA is now the mask of the gun manufacturers. Hunters, ordinary people with guns, etc. are not who they serve. There is no problem in creation that Wayne LaPierre would not tell you could be improved by you buying a gun. Nothing! Can't knit a cable sweater? Plumbing issues? Fired from your job? A gun will help you with that.

If the American MSM had more of a backbone, it could remind the public that the NRA is the lobby group of gunmakers and hold their spokespersons accountable by asking questions such as
"Why should we ever take you seriously given, that you make money off selling dangerous weapons to people?"

The young people from Florida are the only ones who actually are asking the tough questions. Part of the brokenness of American democracy IMHO, is in fact the weakness of the mainstream media as a voice speaking truth to power.

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Brenda Clough
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I would say rather that the myth of the NRA's overwhelming power was due to be punctured. But it took a little child to say out loud that the emperor had no clothes.

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Training helps, but it doesn't guarantee. And the level of training a typical police officer receives is not enough for this type of situation.

Well, quite. Armchair quarterbacking is easy. And think about it - you're a cop in a school (which frankly I find bizarre in the first place, but OK). Your day job is dealing with student fights, petty theft by students, student drug use and so on. You're not expecting to be in a war zone, and you're wearing a gun because it comes with the uniform, and not because you ever expect to have to touch it.

I'm not surprised the officer failed to run into the gunfire.

The news last night answered a question I'd been wondering about: Did the officer at least call the dispatcher and fill them in? He reportedly did call a couple of times and give info on the situation.

So he didn't just go all "deer in headlights" and freeze. Whether or not he should've gone in the building, he did do at least part of his job.

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Wayne La Pierre's speech was excruciatingly painful to hear. He contends that gun control is a means of tyranny and threatens to enslave liberty-loving Americans.

Unfortunately, that's a sacred., foundational tenet for many people. WLP speaks about that in an especially extreme way. ISTM many more gun owners who are saner would be alarmed if the gov't came for guns. And many people who aren't even gun owners.

As I've mentioned, a lot of this goes back to our country's mythology about itself. Pioneers; taming the land; protecting self, family, and property. Manifest Destiny. God over-seeing it all. And it's fundamentally unAmerican to trust the gov't, especially the federal. Even one or two of the Founders wrote that the US might need a bloody internal revolution, from time to time, to refresh the tree of patriotism. (Or something like that.)

quote:
I look at the countries with strict gun control from Japan to Australia to Europe and Canada, and as far as I know, their citizens do not seem to be enslaved, but enjoy the freedom of not being shot at by a semi-automatic rifle. Oh the tyranny of attending a school free from the threat of gun violence?

What is La Pierre's smoking? I would rather choose the "tyranny" of socialism that leaves my children safe and free from gun violence, then the American freedom of gun rights that have resulted
in innocent people in their graves.

Cold war. Socialism is bad. American exceptionalism. Culture clash with many socialist countries. Etc. Doesn't work to tell us to be like some other country. *Might* make some progress with "you know, we ran into that problem, too; we found this approach helped; might be worth a try, until you come up with something else; you'll adapt it and improve upon it; but it might help"--if said without any sarcasm.

TBH, I've been hoping that the Australian PM did something like that, privately, during his recent visit with T.

There are lots of trip wires in this area. It's not at all simple.

Unfortunately. [Votive]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
From the Post, a rural American explains why guns are natural in his area.

How do they feel about bazookas and grenades?

On the teachers with guns, does this include the schools with nuns as teachers? If a student brings a gun to school, just for self-protection mind you, because bullies etc., does the nun get to shoot them if she draws first. There's gotta be a movie in here somewhere.

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\_(ツ)_/

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Ohher
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
From the Post, a rural American explains why guns are natural in his area.


This may be unfair, but I call bullshit on that article. I live in a rural state too. My friends, neighbors, and countrypersons talk about guns all the time, albeit "talk" is actually more like "argue," and sometimes ratchets up to "yelling."

What's different about the region where I live is that it's among the least religiously-observant populations in the US. Despite being invaded, er, settled, by Europeans trying to found a theocracy, New England is no longer much in thrall to the ask-no-questions, harbor-no-doubts model of fundamentalist Christianity.

So it's not solely the guns-are-part-of-rural-life issue that holds here; it's that guns are part of rural life where people have surrendered their critical faculties due to indoctrination by anti-intellectual cults.

In short, the fundamentalist corners of the culture also play an important role in the worship of Moloch.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Ian Climacus

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

TBH, I've been hoping that the Australian PM did something like that, privately, during his recent visit with T.

I'd hope so too, but our PM is not exactly standing for anything at the moment. Perhaps it's easier to bring up things in private talks, though.

I know this is Hell, but I wish you all well. I cannot get into the mindset of those in the NRA, or in the pay of the NRA.

I was struck by the use of Moloch here. But it's a perfect term know I think upon it.

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Wesley J

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
[...] On the teachers with guns, does this include the schools with nuns as teachers? [...]

They would have to put up signs: Caution, this is a Nun Gun Area.

(Alas, a No Gun area would be preferable!)

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Anselmina
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Rossweisse, thanks for sharing that personal story about using the revolver to protect yourself. One supposes there is a world of difference between the temporary, reluctant possession, and possible use, of a hand-gun to protect oneself in an ongoing situation of threat - such as you found yourself in; and accumulating a stash of automatic war weapons just because it's possible to do so, for whatever reason, or no reason at all.

It's important to be reminded that there are some tricky nuances to the wider question of possession of guns, as foreign as the whole concept may seem to many of us.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Rossweisse's story reminds me of a similar one from my late godmother.

She was a doctor working in the remote tribal lands of what is now Iran (on a similar basis to the way Medecins sans Frontieres now work). I was discussing her experiences with her years ago, when she told me that she had woken up one night to hear the distnct sounds of somebody trying to gain access to her tent. I said something like "Good Lord, what did you do?". She replied "I reached for my revolver and fired a couple of rounds through the tent roof."

Presumably the tent needed re-waterproofing. And separately, she got involved in a couple of ambushes and was shot up twice, once very seriously. But she survived. She was never a fan of guns in any form.

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Rossweisse

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I inherited the revolver (a .38 Special) and kept it, because I live alone, and I'm a physically small woman with a serious disease. It's locked up, but I can get to it if I need it.

My brother got all the hunting long guns when our father sold the house; he lives in Alaska, and uses them to put food on the table. He doesn't have any semi-automatic rifles.

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I'm not dead yet.

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JonahMan
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The problem about these anecdotes about how guns have stopped crimes, deterred assaults etc is that they are outweighed by the data about how many people shoot themselves or an innocent bystander by accident; have the gun stolen and used in the commission of a crime; provide a relatively easy way to commit suicide; are picked up adn fired by a child etc etc. Statistically, having a gun doesn't make you safer, it makes you more likely to die or kill someone else. (This possibly doesn't hold true in the middle of nowhere with wild animals around, but in the modern US it certainly does).

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And old age itself, and illness and the grave
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It's no trouble to behave

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Doc Tor
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I have no doubt that having a weapon can deter or de-escalate a crime.

I also have no doubt that having one can provoke or escalate one dramatically.

It's a crap shoot, and I'd rather be a fight involving fists than guns.

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Alan Cresswell

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The obvious escalation is the use of guns itself.

In the UK, the vast majority of criminals do not carry a gun, wouldn't even think of it. A burglar may have a screwdriver or crowbar, used as a tool to enter a house, which could be used as an improvised weapon as needed. But, a gun wouldn't be needed.

However, if there's a chance the owner of the house has a gun then the burglar is more likely to feel the need to have a gun. The more chance there is that the burglar is armed, then the more important it seems for the owner to have a gun. And, so the burglar is more likely to feel the need for a gun ... and round and around it goes escalating upwards, an arms race. And, it just accelerates when it's easy for a criminal to get a gun - buying one from the local sports store, or taking it from the bedside table of the house he did the night before.

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
At the time the wealthy men wrote the American constitution they were pretty much all slave owners weren't they?

Yup, another God-given right.
In the movie musical "1776", there's a great scene where the Founding Guys are arguing over details, especially slavery. It's mostly the Northerners who are against it. But one of the Southerners calls them on their hypocrisy, singing about "rum, Bibles, and slaves", because the Northerners benefit from the products of slavery, even if they don't actually own anyone. The anti-slavery folks are mortified, and cave in about slavery.

Really, really good film. Probably online.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
they are outweighed by the data about how many people shoot themselves or an innocent bystander by accident; have the gun stolen and used in the commission of a crime; provide a relatively easy way to commit suicide; are picked up adn fired by a child etc etc. Statistically, having a gun doesn't make you safer, it makes you more likely to die or kill someone else.

And the problem with that (correct) statistic is that it is easy to think that other people are idiots. I'm not going to handle my gun carelessly, or leave it lying around, or kill myself, so the statistic doesn't really apply to me.

And although there's an element of truth in this (yes, some people are idiots, and some people are much more careless than others), people in general suck at estimating risk.

[ 26. February 2018, 04:32: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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L'organist
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One interesting thing to emerge from the latest US school shooting is just how widely the tentacles of the NRA spread through companies many people use day-to-day without giving a thought that they may be in bed with Wayne LePierre and his merry men.

For example, THIS (half-way down titled Trigger Warning) in today's Times alerted me to the involvement of Amazon in spreading something called NRATV. The likes of Apple, Facebook and YouTube are also apparently relaxed about being linked to the promoters of weapons for all.

Time for us all to look more closely at the company we keep?

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Barnabas62
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Interesting interviews on Fareed Zakaria (CNN) this morning. One of the contributors observed that there was no conflict between the Second Amendment and gun control; historically there had been pretty strict gun control laws in the 1930s and also in the period immediately following the establishment of the Constitution. The real issues were the power of the NRA to foster resistance to gun control laws, and the US gun culture which supported the NRA lobbying.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
THIS (half-way down titled Trigger Warning) in today's Times

It doesn't aid conversation when you link to a news article behind a paywall.

DT
HH


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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

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I have no way of knowing if something is behind a paywall: I have a subscription so it doesn't come up for me - sorry.

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Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

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The bit you can't see referred to above can be summarised thus:

First, the columnist noted their recent discovery that Amazon distributes programmes for NRATV: had a look to explore and described it as being like Netflix for firearms enthusiasts, then went on to name a couple of shows.

Informed that some shows were sponsored by Smith on things like the best handguns for women, the best camo fashion for hunters, and "We all remember our first shot...". Melanie Reid described it as giving her the spur to cancel her subscription to an Amazon service and urges readers to do likewise.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
At the time the wealthy men wrote the American constitution they were pretty much all slave owners weren't they?

Yup, another God-given right.
In the movie musical "1776", there's a great scene where the Founding Guys are arguing over details, especially slavery. It's mostly the Northerners who are against it. But one of the Southerners calls them on their hypocrisy, singing about "rum, Bibles, and slaves", because the Northerners benefit from the products of slavery, even if they don't actually own anyone. The anti-slavery folks are mortified, and cave in about slavery.

Really, really good film. Probably online.

It is - here's the song:
Molasses to Rum to Slaves

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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I'm not as sympathetic to the school security guard as some. He wasn't hired and armed with a gun in order to sniff out marijuana use or lecture bullies, teachers can do that, his primary reason to be there was to stop an armed shooter.

I'm sure he was questioned extensively about his willingness to confront a shooter before he was hired, even the other law enforcement people have said his immediate duty was to find the killer and take him out. It seems he was not alone in his cowardice, either, and that he and two other deputies hid behind cars with their guns drawn, for 4-5 minutes, waiting for the gunman to finish shooting children and walk out.

But this just proves again that guns don't protect people, people protect people -- it was the unarmed teachers who deliberately placed their bodies between the shooter and the kids who were the heroes who saved lives.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I strongly dislike the word ‘coward’.

None of us knows how we would react in such extreme circumstances.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm not as sympathetic to the school security guard as some. He wasn't hired and armed with a gun in order to sniff out marijuana use or lecture bullies, teachers can do that, his primary reason to be there was to stop an armed shooter.

No.

His primary job was to be an armed presence at the school, to deter an armed shooter.

Rather than blaming him for not facing down a vastly-superiorly armed student, we should perhaps look at the policy decisions that had clearly failed in the lead up to that point.

A lock, a reinforced door, a bollard, a checkpoint, do not prevent attacks. They are there as a deterrent and to give people time to respond (usually by running away if they're sensible).

And in this case, the deterrent wasn't enough. Cruz had been a student at the school and knew there was an armed guard on duty. He was more prepared than the guard.

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Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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Twilight, I have had annual training in handling out of control young people. This training is partly to train us to deescalate and/or to try to preempt situations, but it also includes restraint techniques, both moving and holding. Everyone at that employer had that training. I have had to remove students from situations or restrain them from leaving rooms, help others restrain young people from attacking others, several times. It's not easy and we have always had a number of members of staff who have been unable to apply the holds correctly if at all. It is a regular feedback after incidents that some members of staff are required to retrain immediately.

This is MAPA - management of actual and potential aggression - not handling guns.

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Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:


I'm sure he was questioned extensively about his willingness to confront a shooter before he was hired, even the other law enforcement people have said his immediate duty was to find the killer and take him out. It seems he was not alone in his cowardice, either, and that he and two other deputies hid behind cars with their guns drawn, for 4-5 minutes, waiting for the gunman to finish shooting children and walk out.


When Trump shows something other than bluster I'll let him talk about cowardice. A total of five draft deferments shows that he did all that was possible to stay out of harm's way, whilst another, probably poorer and darker-skinned guy went to Vietnam in his place.

I hope that guy came home and is a position to slap some sense and humility into Trump. Then again, how many soldiers would want someone like Trump in their platoon?

[ 26. February 2018, 13:13: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
His primary job was to be an armed presence at the school, to deter an armed shooter.

It's quite possible that even that's pressing the case a bit. His primary role was to be a symbolic presence so that politicians could claim "we're keeping your kids safe" and hence avoid risking the NRA golden hen by talking about guns.

As a deterrent, much less an effective force to take down a shooter, a single cop wouldn't be very much good. The gunman could have easily decided to take him out first, the death toll would have started with one cop who didn't even have time to draw his gun. Once in the building, a single cop wouldn't have been able to do much, even if the gunman had something less lethal than a semi-automatic. Locating the gun man wouldn't be easy - yes, there would be gunfire, but the sound echoing off walls wouldn't be easy to pinpoint. There would be class rooms of kids, he could have escorted them out ... but without knowing where the gunman is (or if there's more than one) would he be sending them to safety or towards danger? I can't see what he could have done - in many ways the only sensible response is to wait until enough support has arrived that you can go systematically through the building simultaneously escorting out the kids and searching for the gun man. One guy won't be able to do that, four guys probably not, especially without specialist training.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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He was there for the parents. So that the school authorities could point to him and say, "Look, we have an armed guard. We are alert and on the job!"

An armed policeman also turns up on Sundays at our church. He is not a worshipper, he's on guard. Against what they won't tell us.

An annoying interview on NPR this morning with the governor of Kentucky, in town for the US governors' conference. He says the issue cannot be analyzed until emotions have died down. The radio host pointed out that there is a shooting about once a week, and when is this time going to come? Well it isn't now; the governor was certain about that. Later!

So, one of the signs I am going to paint for the march next month: NOW IS THE TIME. Also, CAN YOU HEAR THE PEOPLE SING? and, courtesy of Barack Obama, WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR YOU.

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Eirenist
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# 13343

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One of my daughters was formerly a schoolteacher. She restrained a disturbed child from attacking other pupils, and was observed by a parent from the school gate, who reported her to the police as a child abuser. After interviewng her, the officer concluded that there was no case to answer. But it was an unpleasant experience. At least no guns were involved.

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Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
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# 17338

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Mr Trump calling the deputy on duty at the Florida school a coward shows the depths of his ignorance.

No one knows how they will react under fire until it actually happens. If you ask members of the armed forces, they'll tell you that a surprisingly large number of infantry troops don't actually fire their weapon the first time they come under hostile fire - it doesn't denote cowardice, just the fact that the theory, even on a firing range or playing war-games, is vastly different from the real thing.

Of course, the bone-spur survivor in the White House probably knows different, what with his huge personal experience of being under live hostile fire.

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Zacchaeus
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# 14454

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm not as sympathetic to the school security guard as some. He wasn't hired and armed with a gun in order to sniff out marijuana use or lecture bullies, teachers can do that, his primary reason to be there was to stop an armed shooter.

I'm sure he was questioned extensively about his willingness to confront a shooter before he was hired, even the other law enforcement people have said his immediate duty was to find the killer and take him out. It seems he was not alone in his cowardice, either, and that he and two other deputies hid behind cars with their guns drawn, for 4-5 minutes, waiting for the gunman to finish shooting children and walk out.

But this just proves again that guns don't protect people, people protect people -- it was the unarmed teachers who deliberately placed their bodies between the shooter and the kids who were the heroes who saved lives.

And unless he was a highly skilled marksman there is every chance that a child could have got caught in the crossfire.
Trying to hit a moving target, when you are not trained to do so and one who has superior firepower to you, is a disaster waiting to happen.

Even the specialist firearms police here wait until they have all the information before going in.
They do not run gung-ho into a large building full of civilians, without a plan

I don’t know what people expect one badly trained civilian to do in a situation like this.
Sounds like everyone would feel better if he’d run into the building and got himself killed and maybe a few more kids at the same time..

Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:


I'm sure he was questioned extensively about his willingness to confront a shooter before he was hired, even the other law enforcement people have said his immediate duty was to find the killer and take him out. It seems he was not alone in his cowardice, either, and that he and two other deputies hid behind cars with their guns drawn, for 4-5 minutes, waiting for the gunman to finish shooting children and walk out.


When Trump shows something other than bluster I'll let him talk about cowardice. A total of five draft deferments shows that he did all that was possible to stay out of harm's way, whilst another, probably poorer and darker-skinned guy went to Vietnam in his place.

I hope that guy came home and is a position to slap some sense and humility into Trump. Then again, how many soldiers would want someone like Trump in their platoon?

What does Trump have to do with what I said about the school's security guard?
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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An example of a famous coward howling for other people to be brave. Like Wayne LaPierre, who was able to evade service in Vietnam by claiming mental issues. He is careful to attend events only where guns are banned, how very mysterious.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm not as sympathetic to the school security guard as some. He wasn't hired and armed with a gun in order to sniff out marijuana use or lecture bullies, teachers can do that, his primary reason to be there was to stop an armed shooter.

I'm sure he was questioned extensively about his willingness to confront a shooter before he was hired, even the other law enforcement people have said his immediate duty was to find the killer and take him out. It seems he was not alone in his cowardice, either, and that he and two other deputies hid behind cars with their guns drawn, for 4-5 minutes, waiting for the gunman to finish shooting children and walk out.

But this just proves again that guns don't protect people, people protect people -- it was the unarmed teachers who deliberately placed their bodies between the shooter and the kids who were the heroes who saved lives.

And unless he was a highly skilled marksman there is every chance that a child could have got caught in the crossfire.
Trying to hit a moving target, when you are not trained to do so and one who has superior firepower to you, is a disaster waiting to happen.

Even the specialist firearms police here wait until they have all the information before going in.
They do not run gung-ho into a large building full of civilians, without a plan

I don’t know what people expect one badly trained civilian to do in a situation like this.
Sounds like everyone would feel better if he’d run into the building and got himself killed and maybe a few more kids at the same time..

Why insist on a scenario where he does his job badly? He was hired and trained to protect the children and he made no attempt to do it. The sheriff himself says he was not supposed to wait for back-up. There are other options besides running wildly into the crowd firing away. He could have tried to locate the shooter and then take another route so as to sneak up behind him. From what I've read, the shooter shot in downstairs classrooms first, going from room to room in the empty halls, then went upstairs to other rooms. If the guard had slipped inside the school he might have had several opportunities to shoot the killer while he went from one room to another or on the stairs.

It's the not even trying, not even peeking around the door or looking in windows, that bothers me.

The police who responded to Columbine milled around the parking lot "waiting to get all the information they needed," for three hours while students and teachers bled to death. They were later taken to court over their inaction by the victim's families. After that, correct protocol for school shootings was changed to allow some slight chance of saving lives.

The police themselves all say this man did not act correctly. Boogie may not like the word "coward," but I can't think of another way to describe hiding behind a car while kids are being shot after you have volunteered to take a job that requires you to try and save them. We're not talking about civilian teachers or drafted soldiers, but a man who applied for and won that specific position.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
...Wayne LaPierre, who was able to evade service in Vietnam by claiming mental issues. ...

Sounds like a legitimate claim to me.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
An example of a famous coward howling for other people to be brave. Like Wayne LaPierre, who was able to evade service in Vietnam by claiming mental issues. He is careful to attend events only where guns are banned, how very mysterious.

Well I'm not a famous coward so I don't like being compared to one.

I would never apply for a job that required carrying a gun, but if I did agree to take a monthly paycheck for carrying a gun in order to protect school children, I would feel obligated to try and actually earn that money when the occasion arose. If I didn't, I wouldn't expect to be praised for it.

Saying "we don't know how we would act," doesn't mean this man didn't fail to do his job. There were teachers in that school who physically put themselves between the children and danger, something I have actually done on occasion. If we can't call the security guard a coward, how can we call those teachers brave? Our behavior in a crisis is not entirely out of our control.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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Those who put themselves in danger to save the children were indeed brave.

Those who didn’t were not cowards imo - it’s not a word I would use of anyone in any circumstance. Your body can shut down in shock and nobody knows how they will react.

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Posts: 13028 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
He was hired and trained to protect the children and he made no attempt to do it.

Where is the evidence that he was trained to tackle one (or possibly more) shooters, who were heavily armed, single handed? How many hours a week did he spend practising for the eventuality of needing to move through the school to locate and engage an unknown number of shooters? What sort of experience had he had before getting the assignment, had he shown himself to be cool under fire? To be a crack shot? To be able to quickly assess complex situations? And if so, why was he guarding a school where those skills were very unlikely to be needed rather than pounding the beat of crime ridden neighbourhoods where he was more likely to need to draw his gun and protect himself and others?

As far as I can tell he was not equipped to do so, without body armour (even of dubious value against semi-automatic gunfire). I don't know how things are in the US, but here when we see armed police responding to an incident they a) carry what look like suitable weapons (some form of rifle, not hand guns) with body armour, b) they approach the scene cautiously maintaining cover as much as possible, and c) they do so in teams such that someone can provide covering fire to take down the suspect should they start to shoot at the police. It always looks like a well-practised and rehearsed operation. Something that they spend hours every week practising in different environments.

Put simply, the policy of relying on cops permanently stationed at schools to protect people runs into massive problems because a) you want those cops to be trained and equipped for the job which is very expensive, and b) there are many other places in the same city where those skills could be more effectively used. So, you either spend a lot of money training and equipping cops so you have the staff to have both trained cops at schools, or you prioritise where you deploy your resources - standing around a school where they will probably never be needed on the off-chance, or tackling criminals elsewhere on an almost daily basis. ISTM the most likely explanation for why you've a guy approaching retirement at the school is that the police prioritised their resources to tackle crime elsewhere, and thus this poor guy had not specialist training to tackle a shooter, didn't have the equipment needed, and was probably not picked because he had the temperament needed - because the police (probably rightly) decided that keeping the majority safer by using those really good cops elsewhere made sense.

And, putting yet more un-trained, or inadequately trained, people with guns in the environment is going to do diddly squat to make things any different if potential shooters can easily obtain weapons.

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Posts: 32411 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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