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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
They are taught how to shoot, but not when to refrain. They also are susceptible to the same propaganda that the rest of America is. A person reading or watching American news would see a war zone when crime is actually down, overall.
And they watch the same bullshit films.

It's a combination of things:

• Training that encourages this line of thinking. After the Philando Castile shooting in my area, it came out that the officer had recently attended a training seminar called "Bulletproof Warrior" that trains police to look for signs of impending attack.

• Surplus military equipment (weapons, armored vehicles, etc.) being provided to local law enforcement agencies on loan from the federal government - with the caveat that if they aren't used at least once a year, the federal government can take them back. (This is why the suburbs here all boast armored personnel carriers for SWAT teams that aren't actually needed once in a decade).

• NRA/right-wing propaganda about rising crime rates that is at best misleading, and usually flat-out bullshit. Actual violent crime rates in the US have been falling for many years.

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Brenda Clough
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This is free, and may enlighten: Why conservatives love guns.

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Martin60
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Love Haidt!

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Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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But not Slate's otherizing implementation of him.

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Love wins

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Twilight

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# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

You're being a dick. And not for the first time.

My opinion of the deputy is based on the informed words of his superior, Sheriff Israel, as reported in Google news a few days ago:

quote:
Peterson was seen on video arriving at the west side of a building, but “he never went in,” Israel said.

Israel said Peterson should have gone in and “addressed the killer, killed the killer.”

Israel added that after seeing the video, hearing witness accounts and getting a statement from Peterson, he suspended the officer without pay pending an internal investigation. Peterson then resigned, he said.

I think the sheriff has more information about what could be fairly expected of the deputy, and what actually happened, than most of us do with our guesses about what percentage of police would freeze in any given situation, or what chances they would be foolish to take, or the odds of a trained deputy shooting an unarmed kid no matter how much he resembled the suspect.

So. I formed an opinion based on the sheriff's opinion. Further evidence may prove the sheriff (and me) wrong. Meanwhile I'm not on the jury in a court of law. I'm not judging him at the Pearly Gates as a good or bad person. I'm just stating my opinion on a message board, of how he acted in a particular situation. If that makes me a dick, and everyone else here a saint for their contrary opinion, then so be it.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm just stating my opinion on a message board, of how he acted in a particular situation. If that makes me a dick, and everyone else here a saint for their contrary opinion, then so be it.

Doesn't make us saints. Still makes you a dick.

You do realise that the cops very nearly opened fire on a similarly-dressed student who wasn't Cruz?

You do realise that Peterson's testimony states baldly that he thought the shooter/s were outside?

You do realise that Israel had absolutely no choice but to throw Peterson under the bus or quit himself?

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think the sheriff has more information about what could be fairly expected of the deputy,

I think the sheriff may well be worried about his own job as he is ultimately responsible for his deputy's actions.
It is psychologically comforting to have a person to blame. If only that person acted properly, things would have been better. This removes some of the fear and the frustration.

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romanlion
editorial comment
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

You do realise that Peterson's testimony states baldly that he thought the shooter/s were outside?

There's been testimony in this matter already?

I had no idea.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think the sheriff has more information about what could be fairly expected of the deputy,

I think the sheriff may well be worried about his own job as he is ultimately responsible for his deputy's actions.
It is psychologically comforting to have a person to blame. If only that person acted properly, things would have been better. This removes some of the fear and the frustration.

And it offsets this embarrassing affront to the NRA's claim that the solution to "bad guys with guns" is "good guys with guns". So turn the ineffectual good guy into a spineless coward and pretend that 99% of the population wouldn't do the exact same thing.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

You do realise that Peterson's testimony states baldly that he thought the shooter/s were outside?

There's been testimony in this matter already?

I had no idea.

If the police and other relevant authorities haven't taken statements from everyone who may have information that's relevant to the investigation then there is something seriously remiss with their handling of the investigation. So, there must have been testimony given, it's just that it hasn't yet been presented to a jury. In the particular case of a police officer who dashed towards gun fire and then waited for information to know where to go next, and has been vilified for not doing the impossible by his boss (who should know better) and the so-called "President" (who should behave better, but we've come to expect spouting off before any facts are known), then he has issued a statement through his lawyer. There's a link further back on this thread.

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Barnabas62
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I suppose we do not know whether Scot Peterson's discussions with the Sheriff prior to his retirement are formally recorded anywhere. Normal HR rules would make some record of those discussions necessary, but whether they included any details of the shooting event, or whether those were the subject of another formal interview, remains to be seen.

Truth is, the police had better have some pertinent records of the accounts of officers and others at the scene, i.e. written, signed and witnessed statements, otherwise their conduct is subject to further criticism.

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Twilight

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# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm just stating my opinion on a message board, of how he acted in a particular situation. If that makes me a dick, and everyone else here a saint for their contrary opinion, then so be it.

Doesn't make us saints. Still makes you a dick.

You do realise that the cops very nearly opened fire on a similarly-dressed student who wasn't Cruz?

What does that have to do with whether or not Peterson acted appropriately?

quote:
You do realise that Peterson's testimony states baldly that he thought the shooter/s were outside?
So he says now, but it seems an odd thing to assume during a school shooting, when the people you are hired to protect are inside the school and you can't actually see the shooter outside the school.

quote:
You do realise that Israel had absolutely no choice but to throw Peterson under the bus or quit himself?

I don't see any proof of that at all. During one of his first press conferences, Israel was praising his troops for the wonderful job they did. Admitting later, that one of them had messed up would be proving himself wrong and wouldn't be in his best interests.
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Doc Tor
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Keep going with the "he could have snuck up on the shooter and ended it". If it wasn't so fucking tragic, it'd be funny.

He could have just as easily shot the wrong guy, been in the wrong building, been shot himself. This is what happens when in chaotic situations. What,eight minutes from start to finish? No, let's just jump in. Peterson may well be a coward. He may well have been given an impossible task at which he could only have failed.

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Twilight

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# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think the sheriff has more information about what could be fairly expected of the deputy,

I think the sheriff may well be worried about his own job as he is ultimately responsible for his deputy's actions.
It is psychologically comforting to have a person to blame. If only that person acted properly, things would have been better. This removes some of the fear and the frustration.

And it offsets this embarrassing affront to the NRA's claim that the solution to "bad guys with guns" is "good guys with guns". So turn the ineffectual good guy into a spineless coward and pretend that 99% of the population wouldn't do the exact same thing.
Israel is not working for the NRA, many law enforcement men would love to see better gun control.

I'm not sure why you're so convinced that 99% of the population would run and hide when children are under fire. The teachers did not do that. It's also fair to expect law enforcement professionals to be better prepared to step into danger than the rest of us.. It's part of their job, and it's something they would have been asked about and had time to think about before an event. If you can find evidence that 99% of the police force freezes in the face of gun fire I'll be surprised.

There are all sorts of fear. I couldn't speak in front of a crowd, but I have had several occasions when I stepped in front of others to face physical danger. I think we see people without much physical fear all the time. Did you watch the Olympics?

Not having a lot of physical fear doesn't make me that special. Maybe it's a lack of imagination on my part. I've been cowardly in other areas many times. I just expect people who take jobs as police or soldiers to have examined themselves about this a little so as not let others down when it's important.

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Twilight

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# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Keep going with the "he could have snuck up on the shooter and ended it". If it wasn't so fucking tragic, it'd be funny.

He could have just as easily shot the wrong guy, been in the wrong building, been shot himself. This is what happens when in chaotic situations. What,eight minutes from start to finish? No, let's just jump in. Peterson may well be a coward. He may well have been given an impossible task at which he could only have failed.

How hard is it to notice whether the guy is armed or not? Fortunately it's not as easy to "shoot the wrong guy," as you think.

No harm no foul if he went in the wrong building -- he would have been trying and he would have been able to eliminate that building.

Yes. Just eight minutes. That's why there isn't time to do nothing at all for fear of failure. He arrived after 4&1/2 minutes. He might have been able to save half the students, if he had shot the killer at the time.

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I suppose we do not know whether Scot Peterson's discussions with the Sheriff prior to his retirement are formally recorded anywhere. Normal HR rules would make some record of those discussions necessary, but whether they included any details of the shooting event, or whether those were the subject of another formal interview, remains to be seen.

Truth is, the police had better have some pertinent records of the accounts of officers and others at the scene, i.e. written, signed and witnessed statements, otherwise their conduct is subject to further criticism.

In the UK the guy would be suspended from his post prior to an enquiry, with notes taken and statements taken from everyone who had pertinent evidence from the crime scene. Any law enforcement officer would make a record of anything relevant in their personal notebook in case they were asked to make a statement later. ISTR, cuts the mustard on a bulletin board but not in a court of law.

You wouldn't sack the guy because if his statement turned out to be pretty much correct you'd have an ostrich omelette on your face and be looking at compensation for unfair dismissal. It might turn out that, after an enquiry, the judge would rule that Peterson was guilty of professional negligence but you can't assume that at the outset. If it was my job to sue Peterson within an inch of his life I would question the link between how he thought the shooting was taking place outside the school and called in a SWAT team and got the office to check the CCTV, but it's entirely possible that under questioning it would emerge that this was an evolving understanding of what was going on as the situation developed. I don't know what school campuses in Florida are like, but I remember my own school and someone with an AR could have caused carnage if the good guy, or even guys, with a gun happened not to be in the right place at the right time.

As I keep mentioning, school shootings are sufficiently rare that you cannot have a tactical armed response team on full combat awareness all the time. So either you say that you are happy for kids to get shot up because the right to bear arms outweighs the right not to be massacred during double chemistry or you acknowledge that some king of gun control is necessary. Anyone avoiding this dichotomy is a certifiable fool or a shill for Big Ammo.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I suppose we do not know whether Scot Peterson's discussions with the Sheriff prior to his retirement are formally recorded anywhere. Normal HR rules would make some record of those discussions necessary, but whether they included any details of the shooting event, or whether those were the subject of another formal interview, remains to be seen.

Truth is, the police had better have some pertinent records of the accounts of officers and others at the scene, i.e. written, signed and witnessed statements, otherwise their conduct is subject to further criticism.

The statement from the sheriff's department says:
quote:

Israel added that after seeing the video, hearing witness accounts and getting a statement from Peterson, he suspended the officer without pay pending an internal investigation. Peterson then resigned, he said.

It's interesting that whatever Peterson had reported immediately after the event, had him think he had better give up and quit rather than wait for the internal investigation. Only after lawyering up did he state that he "thought the killer was outside."
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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
As I keep mentioning, school shootings are sufficiently rare that you cannot have a tactical armed response team on full combat awareness all the time. So either you say that you are happy for kids to get shot up because the right to bear arms outweighs the right not to be massacred during double chemistry or you acknowledge that some king of gun control is necessary. Anyone avoiding this dichotomy is a certifiable fool or a shill for Big Ammo.

Exactly. I don't know why we're arguing about whether or not this cop did his job correctly (other than Trump said "coward," and then I said, "coward," so now I'm evil) when the big story is that whether the cops do right or not; people, children included, are going to keep dying if we keep allowing all these guns.
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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
No harm no foul if he went in the wrong building -- he would have been trying and he would have been able to eliminate that building.

And, if the shooter had been outside, and Petersen had information to that effect (and, it appears that was the info he had), he'd have been vilified for going inside a building. So, bullshit to your "no harm no foul".

Besides, even entering a building to eliminate the possibility that the shooter was there would take considerable time. To enter each room, confirm that there is no shooter there ... a minute per room, just for a cursory look. OK, if you have a squad of cops so that you can do all the buildings, with more outside in case the shooter is outside/comes out. One guy? That makes no sense. Better to stay put and await information on where the shooter is - you may not be heading towards where you need to be, but you won't be going the wrong way either.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Callan
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# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
As I keep mentioning, school shootings are sufficiently rare that you cannot have a tactical armed response team on full combat awareness all the time. So either you say that you are happy for kids to get shot up because the right to bear arms outweighs the right not to be massacred during double chemistry or you acknowledge that some king of gun control is necessary. Anyone avoiding this dichotomy is a certifiable fool or a shill for Big Ammo.

Exactly. I don't know why we're arguing about whether or not this cop did his job correctly (other than Trump said "coward," and then I said, "coward," so now I'm evil) when the big story is that whether the cops do right or not; people, children included, are going to keep dying if we keep allowing all these guns.
Look, Twiglet, neither of us, pending a proper judicial enquiry, is going to *know* whether the guy was a coward or a decent man out of his depth in a horrendous situation. But we do *know* that allowing people to buy assault rifles with no questions asked are going to cost lots of lives. So focusing on the former may just be playing into the hands of those who are doing "the quickness of the 'and deceives the h'eye" bit, about the latter. So, maybe, hold off the rush to judgement until an inquest has had something definitive to say about the matter?

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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RooK

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# 1852

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Indeed.

Proving the old bastard's potential all-too-standard cowardice doesn't un-murder anybody. Warm blamey feelings of blaming blame might help stupid people make misguided sense of the world, but it doesn't accomplish anything to make it better.

The only thing that matters is that this is an objective stab in the heart of the blithe "guy with a gun" versus "guy with a gun" as the only answer. It's not even close to being the only answer, and it's not a very good one.

[ 28. February 2018, 13:45: Message edited by: RooK ]

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
It's interesting that whatever Peterson had reported immediately after the event, had him think he had better give up and quit rather than wait for the internal investigation. Only after lawyering up did he state that he "thought the killer was outside."

We don't know what he'd already given in his statement to the investigation. The evidence Israel had may well include radio chatter saying the shooter was outside the building, that Petersen had already told him that.

As Callan noted, suspension pending an internal investigation would be normal procedure in most places, and means very little re: guilt or innocence in regard to charges of dereliction of duty or similar. Though, suspension without pay seems very harsh, but again that could be normal for an internal investigation.

As for quitting. Well, I would say it's not particularly strange for someone who has had 14 kids and 3 teachers killed on his watch, even though there was nothing he could have done to change that, to take things badly. Very badly. Maybe he could have gotten over it, but at that moment in time feeling that there was no way he could ever put on a badge again seems to me to be an entirely understandable reaction. Again, irrelevant re: guilt or innocence on any charges that may be brought against him.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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A little cheery news to start the day: a nationwide sporting goods store is curtailing gun sales. The CEO was shaken to learn that the Florida shooter buys guns (although not -the- gun) at his store.

And, also from NPR, the governor of Vermont changes his mind. The discovery that a local lad was planning a major slaughter shook him. These are both free clicks.

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LutheranChik
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Vermont has a GOP governor? Say it ain't t so.My wife and I keep Vermont as a possible escape option, short of driving into Canada, if things get too weird in our increasingly red state.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
As I keep mentioning, school shootings are sufficiently rare that you cannot have a tactical armed response team on full combat awareness all the time. So either you say that you are happy for kids to get shot up because the right to bear arms outweighs the right not to be massacred during double chemistry or you acknowledge that some king of gun control is necessary. Anyone avoiding this dichotomy is a certifiable fool or a shill for Big Ammo.

Exactly. I don't know why we're arguing about whether or not this cop did his job correctly (other than Trump said "coward," and then I said, "coward," so now I'm evil) when the big story is that whether the cops do right or not; people, children included, are going to keep dying if we keep allowing all these guns.
Look, Twiglet, neither of us, pending a proper judicial enquiry, is going to *know* whether the guy was a coward or a decent man out of his depth in a horrendous situation. But we do *know* that allowing people to buy assault rifles with no questions asked are going to cost lots of lives. So focusing on the former may just be playing into the hands of those who are doing "the quickness of the 'and deceives the h'eye" bit, about the latter. So, maybe, hold off the rush to judgement until an inquest has had something definitive to say about the matter?
Well. That's what I get for agreeing with you. To think I almost gave your post the
[Overused] smilie.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Vermont has a GOP governor? Say it ain't t so.My wife and I keep Vermont as a possible escape option, short of driving into Canada, if things get too weird in our increasingly red state.

He is a GOP governor, of a very pro-gun state. But he has changed his thinking. I find this very encouraging.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Vermont has a GOP governor? Say it ain't t so.My wife and I keep Vermont as a possible escape option, short of driving into Canada, if things get too weird in our increasingly red state.

Though a GOP governor willing to use his brain rather than just be a puppet of the NRA. So, not all bad.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Exactly. I don't know why we're arguing about whether or not this cop did his job correctly (other than Trump said "coward," and then I said, "coward," so now I'm evil) when the big story is that whether the cops do right or not; people, children included, are going to keep dying if we keep allowing all these guns.

I don't think you're evil, and I don't agree with your take on the school cop quite independently of what Mr. Trump says (although to be fair, if you find yourself arguing on the same side as Donald Trump, it might be a good time to give your position a little extra scrutiny [Biased] ) And we agree - "hardening" schools, and turning them into little mini-jails is not the solution (and sounds like a way to make a generation of thoroughly screwed-up kids if you ask me). If you have a society with these kinds of weapons, you're going to have some mass killings. Just like having motor vehicles means we have traffic accidents.
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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Indeed.

Proving the old bastard's potential all-too-standard cowardice doesn't un-murder anybody. Warm blamey feelings of blaming blame might help stupid people make misguided sense of the world, but it doesn't accomplish anything to make it better.


I've read two articles today by right wing columnists who say what we need is not gun control but more security at the schools. If some committee decides (a few years from now, when it wont be reported) that Paterson did lose his nerve and, as Alan would have him do, stayed put until all the firing was over and the shooter gone -- then that might put a spoke in the, "all we need is security guards," argument.

As for warm blamey feelings -- if those parents whose children were slaughtered, get a little of their anger relieved by thinking about Mr. "I think I'll just wait here for more information," then I don't fault them one bit -- or call them stupid.

Oh wait...

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lilBuddha
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The laws governing motor vehicles are designed for the safety of everyone concerned. American gun laws? Not so much.
ETA: vehicles are necessary to our lives. Guns, not so much.

[ 28. February 2018, 14:37: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Pigwidgeon

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Breaking News: Dick's Sporting Goods, one of the U.S.'s largest sports retailers, will stop selling military-style rifles and require gun buyers to be 21.
[Smile]

I just got this from the New York Times, so I'm not posting the link (pay wall), but I'm sure Google will have lots of links.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
How hard is it to notice whether the guy is armed or not? Fortunately it's not as easy to "shoot the wrong guy," as you think.

Tell that to a black guy, because those dudes clearly need to chill out with their "Black Lives Matter" shtick.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though, suspension without pay seems very harsh, but again that could be normal for an internal investigation.

I thought that as well. But then I remembered it was in America, where most people don't even get paid maternity leave, much less paid suspensions.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
How hard is it to notice whether the guy is armed or not? Fortunately it's not as easy to "shoot the wrong guy," as you think.

Tell that to a black guy, because those dudes clearly need to chill out with their "Black Lives Matter" shtick.
Indeed. For something that's not easy to do, the police sure are good at doing it.

Remember that one last year when they turned up to a call and immediately shot the woman who'd called them in the first place? Yeah, that proves that it's really easy to tell whether someone's a threat or not. [Roll Eyes]

[ 28. February 2018, 15:07: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Ohher
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A little cheery news to start the day: a nationwide sporting goods store is curtailing gun sales. The CEO was shaken to learn that the Florida shooter buys guns (although not -the- gun) at his store.

And, also from NPR, the governor of Vermont changes his mind. The discovery that a local lad was planning a major slaughter shook him. These are both free clicks.

Upside: two individuals change minds . . .
Downside: . . . because something happens close to home?

Well, if that's what it takes, we only have to wait until every state has a mass school shooting, and every arms-seller is shocked to learn they've supplied a mass shooter with weapons.
[Disappointed]
FFS, where do these morons THINK PEOPLE GET THESE WEAPONS?

[ 28. February 2018, 15:08: Message edited by: Ohher ]

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The laws governing motor vehicles are designed for the safety of everyone concerned. American gun laws? Not so much.
ETA: vehicles are necessary to our lives. Guns, not so much.

I'm not disputing that. But both things come with natural consequences - if you have a society where everyone drives round in cars, you will have road accidents. If you have a society where everyone runs round with guns, you will have shootings.

A sensible political goal is to find the appropriate balance between the usefulness of the thing and the safety aspects (and especially the safety of other people. I'm less concerned about idiots killing or maiming themselves than I am about them taking out other people.) Basically, a cost-benefit analysis.

The laws around motor vehicle use are a fair approximation of that. I don't think they're perfect, but given current technology, they're a reasonable attempt.

Gun laws? We agree.

If a second amendment absolutist wants to make the claim that having guns is so fundamental that the benefits outweigh the costs, then OK. I won't agree with his measure of benefit, but you've got to accept the cost. The thing that drives me crazy are the people that pretend that the costs don't exist.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Breaking News: Dick's Sporting Goods, one of the U.S.'s largest sports retailers, will stop selling military-style rifles and require gun buyers to be 21.
[Smile]

I just got this from the New York Times, so I'm not posting the link (pay wall), but I'm
sure Google will have lots of links.

Someone mentioned this upthread as well. I'm not a sports person, but I'm determined to find something-- a warwe bottle or travel mug perhaps-- to purchase at my local Dicks this weekend. The full statement was beautiful.

(Given the number of non-sporty lefties apt to be flooding the stores this weekend, perhaps they can print some t shirts with a new slogan "stand with Dick's and not the dick". Give a % of the profits to Everytown-- anti gun group founded by Sandy Hook parents-- and you've got a winner)

[ 28. February 2018, 15:30: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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RooK

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Fucking guns.
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