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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fucking Guns
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
That's my thinking. There is probably an argument for excluding AR15s from Second Amendment protection, allowing a period for their surrender, then outlawing their possession. That wouldn't reduce the overall homicide by gun rate by all that much, but would reduce significantly the risks of school mass shootings.
That's a partial Aussie-type solution, so it probably will go in the thinking the unthinkable pile.
The alternative, of arming these resource officers (or even teachers) with equivalent lethal weapons, sounds terribly dangerous.
[ 23. February 2018, 14:22: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Alan Cresswell
I think a 30 year veteran might be quite well aware that going up a gunman firing a semi automatic rifle with a standard issue police sidearm was hardly an equal contest.
He would probably have guessed AR15. I think that might have given anyone pause for thought.
It rather messes up the NRA claim though that 'the right way to deal with a bad man with a gun is to have a good man with a gun there too'.
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Alan Cresswell
I think a 30 year veteran might be quite well aware that going up a gunman firing a semi automatic rifle with a standard issue police sidearm was hardly an equal contest.
He would probably have guessed AR15. I think that might have given anyone pause for thought.
It rather messes up the NRA claim though that 'the right way to deal with a bad man with a gun is to have a good man with a gun there too'.
It messes up the claim. But, probably only because this individual cop is within the 99+% of the population who are just normal. Not one of the very few "bad guys", and not one of the heroic "good guys", just a normal guy with normal concerns and behaving in a normal way when faced with a situation like that.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
If possession of certain classes of firearm were to be resticted or even prohibited, and the owners refused to give them up, what would happen then? Just asking.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
The we hear that the armed school resource officer (in the post since 2009), faced with the impact of the event and hearing the semi-automatic rifle fire, hid behind a pillar outside the school while the shooting went on within the school. I guess a sense of self-preservation took over, got in the way of him doing what he was there to do. Easy to call him a coward, if you haven't experienced the chaos and the fear yourself.
It takes a great deal of both courage to put yourself in a situation where you might get hurt. I once helped prevent a mugging on the London Underground by standing next to the potential muggee and his girlfriend, thus giving, I hoped, the impression that in a rumble he would have to take on three of us rather than two. During the incident I was completely terrified. The sort of people who would run towards the sound of an automatic rifle are incredibly brave, almost certainly trained to deal with the situation or denser than the core of a white dwarf. Sticking some poor bloke with a gun on site and hoping he turns out to be Colonel 'H' Jones when the balloon goes up is a tad optimistic. There's a reason that the army doesn't just give new recruits a gun and say, "the enemy are over there somewhere, off you trot".
Though the reports I read said the officer in question was a 30+ year veteran in the police. Which, of course, doesn't mean this wasn't the first time he'd been confronted by someone with a gun (it's quite possible he'd never been put in that position before). Possibly rather than a posting for a raw recruit the position of officer guarding a school is seen as one of those soft options given to someone approaching retirement and no longer quite up to the rigours of pounding the beat and chasing down petty crooks, an alternative to the proverbial desk job.
I think the problem with school shootings is that they are comparatively rare and, therefore, the man on site is going to be unprepared. When I had dealings with armed policemen, once upon a time, they were hand picked and highly trained. They knew that if they got a phone call from my colleagues they would be required to subdue and help arrest potentially armed and vicious criminals. They were prepared and ready, and very good at their jobs. On the other hand, the job of guarding a school is, in most cases, a sinecure. You do your years of hard graft and then you spend your declining years pottering round the school, making people feel safe, in the case of our guy. I don't know how the system works across the board, but I'm guessing if your the sort of person who can make a success of a career in the Marines, Delta Force or a tactical armed unit in the police you don't take a job guarding a school. So when it does all kick off you aren't going to have someone who is prepared and ready for combat. That's the case if you're an middle aged cop or someone younger who applied for the job because you wanted to carry a gun and the army wouldn't have you. So, suddenly, there is a young fit man spraying bullets across the place and all around the screams of those that perish. Now, in a movie, suddenly, the guy would step up to the plate and bring down the baddie with a well aimed shot, followed by a pithy one liner. In real life you have someone who has been hired to deal with an eventuality that he is totally unprepared for. Best case scenario, our guy steps up to the plate and gets a chest full of bullets. Worst case, he manages to fire his weapon and adds to the student casualties. Frankly, cowering behind a pillar is the responsible option in those circumstances.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
If possession of certain classes of firearm were to be resticted or even prohibited, and the owners refused to give them up, what would happen then? Just asking.
Police and legislators then have a range of options, including fines, invalidating insurance policies for dwellings where the weapons are kept, using the presence of weapons as an aggravating factor for charges and sentences, linking refusals to drivers' permit validity, etc, etc, as well as the generally unwise approach of turning up to confiscate them.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I don't think the sort of process that happened in Australia, where there was an amnesty and buy back followed by enforcement of bans, would work in the US. That Oregon siege a couple of years ago shows the extent to which some people are prepared to defy not only the law, but law enforcement.
I also don't know the process whereby a national gun related scheme can be agreed upon and/or imposed upon the 50 states. It has to be a national thing to work, of course. Look at Mexico. They have gun laws I think, but its no good because of the free-for-all to the north.
It has to be a gradual thing. Better licensing systems, more restrictions on where and how certain guns can be purchased or traded, more restictions on where certain guns can be carried and/or used would be a stage 1 thing, just off the top.
The language and siege mentality of senior NRA figures is of course a huge obstacle to any orderly imposition of gun controls.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I think Americans would be more amenable to the car model. Specifically, insurance. You want a car? You get insurance that covers not only theft but accident, by or to your vehicle.
You want a gun? The insurance you will be obliged to purchase covers not only the loss to you if it is stolen, but your liability when you accidentally shoot the mailman or your own foot. The (considerable) medical bills are then covered and do not fall upon the public when you cannot pay them. Your premiums go down if you store it in a locked place, get training, renew licensing, etc., just like they do with cars.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
On the other hand, the job of guarding a school is, in most cases, a sinecure. You do your years of hard graft and then you spend your declining years pottering round the school, making people feel safe, in the case of our guy.
Bear in mind that the (certainly in England and Wales) job of courtroom security, that used to be handled by Officers of the Court and the Prison Service, are now handled by Serco and G4S.
I've heard too many stories where the defendant/prisoner kicks off, the guards' first instinct is to move away from the person they're there to control, and it's the defence solicitor/court usher who are the ones who bring them to the ground. In one notable incident, a magistrate vaulted the bench and tackled the miscreant.
It's not that the ones in the uniforms are poorly paid (they often are): it's the public service ethos that's the problem. Some poorly trained, badly paid, out-sourced worker isn't going to put their life on the line, or suffer employment-ending injuries, if they know they're not valued or protected during the rest of their working hours.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mad Cat
Shipmate
# 9104
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Posted
I grew up down the road from Dumblane, and I teach in a secondary school. The idea of 'hardening' schools is abhorrent. Abhorrent. When did an arms race ever end well?
The gun lobby claims their amendment, which they value more than the safety of children. Of course, behind their amendment is the money. They value the money more than the safety of children.
It's my firm belief that they will answer to their Maker, and they should FEAR.
A wise child once told me that God doesn't send anyone to hell: we choose to go there ourselves. What will they choose?
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Weird and sweary.
Posts: 1844 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
... There is probably an argument for excluding AR15s from Second Amendment protection, allowing a period for their surrender...
Confiscated Guns Must Be Sold, Not Destroyed, Rules Arizona Supreme Court
quote:
The Arizona Supreme Court ruled the city of Tucson can no longer destroy firearms that have been confiscated by police or turned in by citizens... In 2013, state lawmakers spelled out that if police seize or acquire guns, they must sell them to licensed firearms dealers.
You can't make this stuff up.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Presumably this is to ensure that the firearms concerned get sold all nice and legally to the 'good guys', rather than find their way illegally to the 'bad guys'?
Yes?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
The Arizona Supreme Court ruled the city of Tucson can no longer destroy firearms that have been confiscated by police or turned in by citizens... In 2013, state lawmakers spelled out that if police seize or acquire guns, they must sell them to licensed firearms dealers.
One wonders what clause in the Arizona state constitution could possibly be violated by destroying firearms. Unless, heaven forfend, they were overstepping their bounds.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I presume the logic is that seized goods should be sold where possible, the monies raised supporting law enforcement and saving tax payers some cash. Presumably if those goods can't be legally sold (eg drugs) they're destroyed. But, if guns can legally be sold then the courts have ruled that they should be, treating them the same as auctioning off a drug runners collection of fast cars.
If those guns are seized because the law has changed so that they can no longer be owned then there's no option, no gun store that can legally sell them, so they're destroyed.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, probably only because this individual cop is within the 99+% of the population who are just normal. Not one of the very few "bad guys", and not one of the heroic "good guys", just a normal guy with normal concerns and behaving in a normal way when faced with a situation like that.
A possibility which seems beyond President Trump.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The NYPD stat for hitting the target in a gun fight is 18%. These are trained police officers in the biggest city in the US. It is difficult to believe that a teacher could better those odds in her classroom.
As to guns being a God-given right, remember that Wayne LaPierre has no theology degree and is in fact a minion of Moloch. Child sacrifice is OK with him. It would be useless to point out to him that, if you're going to go that route, I could claim that my God has called upon me to smite the heathen and to gut LaPierre with a kitchen knife would be a holy and appropriate offering upon His altar. You can find a religion to let you do anything. His religion is guns.
Sadly, yes. Yes.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, probably only because this individual cop is within the 99+% of the population who are just normal. Not one of the very few "bad guys", and not one of the heroic "good guys", just a normal guy with normal concerns and behaving in a normal way when faced with a situation like that.
A possibility which seems beyond President Trump.
Since this is hell I'll say it: the evidence suggests the only difference between Trump and the school cop's response to this horrible situation is that Trump might be more willing to use a handy kid as a shield rather than a pillar
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Governor Rick Scott's proposals.
Interestingly, he has this to say about arming teachers.
quote:
“I disagree with arming the teachers. My focus is on bringing in law enforcement,” Mr Scott said. “Let law enforcement do the keeping us safe and let teachers focus on teaching”.
But see here as well.
quote:
The Republican-controlled state legislature rallied behind Mr Scott’s framework, releasing legislation that tracked with his proposals and would also impose a 3-day waiting period for buying guns. Breaking with Mr Scott, legislators backed allowing trained and certified teachers to carry firearms on campus.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
... It's not that the ones in the uniforms are poorly paid (they often are): it's the public service ethos that's the problem. Some poorly trained, badly paid, out-sourced worker isn't going to put their life on the line, or suffer employment-ending injuries, if they know they're not valued or protected during the rest of their working hours.
Very fair comment, and of course the Orange Cookie-Monster has leapt in with accusations of cowardice. They may or may not be fair, but he wasn't there, and would he have risked his life if he had been?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Florida is the home of the "Stand Your Ground" law, and famously screwy about guns. That and the hurricanes keep a lot of people away.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Wayne LaPierre has no theology degree and is in fact a minion of Moloch. Child sacrifice is OK with him.
There is a very, very hot corner of hell specially prepared for him. Now, if only someone would send him there.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
... It's not that the ones in the uniforms are poorly paid (they often are): it's the public service ethos that's the problem. Some poorly trained, badly paid, out-sourced worker isn't going to put their life on the line, or suffer employment-ending injuries, if they know they're not valued or protected during the rest of their working hours.
Very fair comment, and of course the Orange Cookie-Monster has leapt in with accusations of cowardice. They may or may not be fair, but he wasn't there, and would he have risked his life if he had been?
Of course not. That is clearly a 'for me not you' issue. I get to duck and cover, you get to risk your neck; also I get budget deficits and you don't.
In the US a security guard (say, at a mall) gets paid little more than minimum wage. If you have a security clearance, you can get more. And if you are an armed security guard, you have to get a license, and are paid yet more, but you have to keep up your certification, prove you can hit a target, and so forth. It's not like they can just slap you into a uniform, hand you a gun and you're good to go. Nevertheless, even an armed guard is not paid all that well. $20 an hour, perhaps? (I could ask my son, who used to be a security guard.) In the US it is no princely wage, any more than being in the armed forces is. (There are members of the armed forces who are eligible for food assistance.) There is not a lot of motivation to risk your life.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Of course not. That is clearly a 'for me not you' issue. I get to duck and cover, you get to risk your neck; also I get budget deficits and you don't.[/QB]
How dare you, Brenda!! Next thing you know, you will be charging Fearless Leader with cowardly ducking the draft claiming heel spurs!
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
How dare you, Brenda!! Next thing you know, you will be charging Fearless Leader with cowardly ducking the draft claiming heel spurs!
Yes, it's odd that. One would have thought the military would have been particularly keen to enlist the services of someone who had been to a military academy.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Now, if only someone would send him there.
Yeah, let's not venture too far into 'Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?' territory, OK? Ideation with suggested intent is a dangerous concept to uncork.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
My son reports that a security guard licensed to carry arms is paid about $17 an hour. (His $20 rate was high and immediately fell to $14.) I will point out that this is not really enough to live on in a major metro area. They would pay you less in, oh, rural Georgia.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
... It's not that the ones in the uniforms are poorly paid (they often are): it's the public service ethos that's the problem. Some poorly trained, badly paid, out-sourced worker isn't going to put their life on the line, or suffer employment-ending injuries, if they know they're not valued or protected during the rest of their working hours.
Very fair comment, and of course the Orange Cookie-Monster has leapt in with accusations of cowardice. They may or may not be fair, but he wasn't there, and would he have risked his life if he had been?
Trump wasn't even brave enough to face the possibility of being drafted to fight in Vietnam, and then criticised the war record of the hardy souls who did.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Tweet from one of the Florida survivors:
Sarah Chadwick// #NEVERAGAIN
✔
@sarahchad_
We should change the names of AR-15s to “Marco Rubio” because they are so easy to buy.
These kids have internet skills that we cannot dream of. They'll steamroller the GOP.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Now, if only someone would send him there.
Yeah, let's not venture too far into 'Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?' territory, OK? Ideation with suggested intent is a dangerous concept to uncork.
Perhaps a visit from 3 instructive ghosts, during the night? Worked for Scrooge.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Alan Cresswell
I think a 30 year veteran might be quite well aware that going up a gunman firing a semi automatic rifle with a standard issue police sidearm was hardly an equal contest.
He would probably have guessed AR15. I think that might have given anyone pause for thought.
It rather messes up the NRA claim though that 'the right way to deal with a bad man with a gun is to have a good man with a gun there too'.
It messes up the claim. But, probably only because this individual cop is within the 99+% of the population who are just normal.
Sounds like he had 3 normal buddies with him.
That's 4 pistols (and long guns in every patrol car), but zero testicles.
A staggering, years long list of failures right up to and through the minutes of the actual shooting.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
I'm reading of corporations distancing themselves from and cutting ties with the NRA. Is this usual?
While I share in the admiration of the youth's ability to use media, traditional and social, I fear it will be a hard slog for them with many disappointments. But all power to them.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Tweet from one of the Florida survivors:
Sarah Chadwick// #NEVERAGAIN
✔
@sarahchad_
We should change the names of AR-15s to “Marco Rubio” because they are so easy to buy.
These kids have internet skills that we cannot dream of. They'll steamroller the GOP.
I don't know Sarah but I think I love her
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Alan Cresswell
I think a 30 year veteran might be quite well aware that going up a gunman firing a semi automatic rifle with a standard issue police sidearm was hardly an equal contest.
He would probably have guessed AR15. I think that might have given anyone pause for thought.
It rather messes up the NRA claim though that 'the right way to deal with a bad man with a gun is to have a good man with a gun there too'.
It messes up the claim. But, probably only because this individual cop is within the 99+% of the population who are just normal.
Sounds like he had 3 normal buddies with him.
That's 4 pistols (and long guns in every patrol car), but zero testicles.
A staggering, years long list of failures right up to and through the minutes of the actual shooting.
At Columbine, the entire police force waited almost an hour before entering the school. Some injured students leapt out of windows as they waited for help.
As detailed here different police depts. have different policies on how many officers are needed to respond to a mass shooting. Prior to Columbine, the conventional wisdom is you wait for the entire swat team to arrive so you can enter in force. After the carnage at Columbine, that strategy came into understandable disrepute but it sounds to me like there's not a good replacement.
iow, no one has really come up with a good or effective strategy for taking down someone with an assault weapon shooting indiscriminately.
I certainly wish Officer Peterson had been able to take out Cruz. I suspect he is suffering his own personal hell right now, which is most likely why he resigned. But I cannot say that I would choose differently if I were in his place. Neither can you. No one, regardless of whatever training they may have received, who has not faced this circumstance, can guess what they would do if faced with such a horrible encounter. I wish Officer Peterson nothing but grace.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Hearing T run off at the mouth today, I wondered if the officer can sue T for trashing him so much.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
. No one, regardless of whatever training they may have received, who has not faced this circumstance, can guess what they would do if faced with such a horrible encounter. I wish Officer Peterson nothing but grace.
One can only say with any certainty what one did. Training helps, but it doesn't guarantee. And the level of training a typical police officer receives is not enough for this type of situation.
romanidiot is trolling.
That armed and trained police do not respond properly, misidentify shooters, miss intended targets, etc. how the fuck does any sane person think a teacher is going to do better?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Training helps, but it doesn't guarantee. And the level of training a typical police officer receives is not enough for this type of situation.
Well, quite. Armchair quarterbacking is easy. And think about it - you're a cop in a school (which frankly I find bizarre in the first place, but OK). Your day job is dealing with student fights, petty theft by students, student drug use and so on. You're not expecting to be in a war zone, and you're wearing a gun because it comes with the uniform, and not because you ever expect to have to touch it.
I'm not surprised the officer failed to run into the gunfire.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
He's an easy target to blame ...
But as somebody said, how they can expect one man with a hand gun, to get near an unstable person who might have any sort of weapons. In a large building, without the specific training on how to handle a situation like this.
If he had gone in it could have just ended up in greater carnage.
But hey let's deflect criticism of the whole system onto the little man at the bottom because obviously the system can’t be at fault
[ 24. February 2018, 07:04: Message edited by: Zacchaeus ]
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
Attempting to turn that guy into a scapegoat may well turn out be the last straw. That, and the President doing an off the wall hair twirl before talking of arming teachers and judging the security guard to be a coward.
There is talk of a social media wave brewing against the NRA. Many ordinary people, (not just in America), fervently hope this wave turns into a storm and that common sense comes out as the winner.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Emma Gonzales observed that Rick Scott's proposals were promising, but didn't go far enough. In articular, the absence of specific proposals re AR15 and similar semi-automatic weapons using high velocity bullets was a concern.
From what I know and have read, I wouldn't expect folks without body armour, and carrying a side-arm only, to just charge in and take on anyone spraying bullets from an AR15. There's a fine dividing line between brave and foolhardy. At the very least, that's an "approach with proper caution" issue. That doesn't mean those outside get a pass for not going inside, at least to reconnoitre, but recklessness doesn't help anyone.
romanlion, you know something about AR15s. Would you take on an AR15 shooter, armed only with a sidearm and without any body protection?
[ 24. February 2018, 09:47: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Another question from a bemused Brit - would standard body armour offer realistic protection against an AR-15?
BBC reports the NRA response to the Florida shootings. Not sure if everybody can see this though.
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
Another question from a bemused Brit - would standard body armour offer realistic protection against an AR-15?
It seems to depend on the bullets used. Not sure what the law is saying about that.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Or it might even be more complicated than that.
romanlion talked about getting this type of bullet.
quote:
The fact is that standard 5.56 ammunition — “ball” ammunition with a traditional lead core — can pierce a “bullet proof” vest just as easily as M855, a fact we have conclusively proven through our own testing. So can commonly available .308 Winchester ammunition, one of the most popular “hunting” cartridges in the world. So can .30-06 Springfield, the “traditional” hunting cartridge in the United States. In fact, almost every full-size and even every intermediate rifle caliber is perfectly capable of piercing the bullet proof vest worn by police officers.
All the more reason for caution, I'd say.
[ 24. February 2018, 10:50: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
Another question from a bemused Brit - would standard body armour offer realistic protection against an AR-15?
Not much. Standard body armour can be penetrated by rifle rounds. You can buy body armour which has heavy plates that aren't penetrated by a standard .30-06 round fired from a rifle (as well as 5.56 NATO), but it's heavy and cumbersome to wear, and so most police officers don't wear it.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Yes.
"The answer to a bad man with a semi-automatic AR15 (or equivalent) is .... what exactly?". Wayne Lapierre is talking bollocks.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Is there any reason why they can't deploy drones and take out the bad man with a Hellfire? The trials in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan seem to be conclusive.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Mini-drones (about wren-size) equipped with camera, laser and some kind of firearm? You'd have to get them in there pretty quick.
Nope, prevention is better than rapid response. And should include some banning of both bullets and certain types of guns.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
From what I know and have read, I wouldn't expect folks without body armour, and carrying a side-arm only, to just charge in and take on anyone spraying bullets from an AR15. There's a fine dividing line between brave and foolhardy. At the very least, that's an "approach with proper caution" issue. That doesn't mean those outside get a pass for not going inside, at least to reconnoitre, but recklessness doesn't help anyone.
An unarmed police officer tried to reason with the Hungerford shooter and got himself killed for his trouble. Guy was a real hero. But SOP is to radio for back up and wait for the tactical unit to come in and sort things out.
I may be repeating myself here a little bit ("surely not! "I hear you all cry) but the answer to a bad guy with a gun is a group of trained and skilled personnel with guns and, realistically, you cannot establish such at every school in the US. More to the point, to do such would be to concede that school shootings were a fact of life, like litter in the playground. So you have semi-retired cops or security guards knocking around the place or half arsed suggestions that teachers should be packing heat, or the idiot commentator who suggested, after Sandy Hook, that toddlers should be trained to rush the gunman. Basically, there are two options, either you restrict access to assault rifles and the like or you reconcile yourself to this sort of slaughter on a regular basis. It's a rare occasion on which I thank God for Margaret Thatcher and John Major but they were moral giants compared to the current US Republican Party.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Boycott.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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