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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: In Praise of IngoB!
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I'll wait a week.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And I call bullshit on the suggestion that I do not listen or have no respect for other Shipmates. I can only assume that this notion derives from the idea that listening means agreeing and respecting means accepting as true / good / beautiful. But for me, it is simply the case that I do not agree with many things people say here, and I often do not accept as true / good / beautiful where they are at. However, I very carefully listen to what people have to say and often spend a lot of time in adapting my response accordingly. Furthermore, I try to give due consideration to all responses, even where I'm getting absolutely swamped with them. That in my eyes is showing them respect.
I'm absolutely certain this is how you believe you act.
Does the number of people telling you otherwise give you the tiniest pause for introspection?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
I'm absolutely certain this is how you believe you act.
Me, too, for the record-- I should have made it clearer that the dynamic I was trying to describe was reactionary and occasional, rather than studied and commonplace.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm absolutely certain this is how you believe you act.
Does the number of people telling you otherwise give you the tiniest pause for introspection?
Just to give mousethief the satisfaction I know he will derive from it, I am absolutely certain that that is how quite a few others, including myself, believe IngoB does generally act. Amongst those others are several people on this very thread who - unlike myself - do not share IngoB's religious convictions. Some of them have no axe to grind for him at all and - also unlike myself - are long-standing, widely respected members of this community and/or current/erstwhile members of the crew.
Does any of that give you any pause for reconsidering your own apparent "absolute certainty" that he doesn't generally so act?
[ 30. April 2014, 22:17: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Ingo, reading much of this thread prompts me to ask if only, or mainly, your faith and thus argument is driven by fact-truth and logic alone? Is there any component for you driven by beauty or more specifically aesthetics? Or personal experience of joy? Or of mystic connection, what psychologists call "flow"?
I'm thinking we've got a a failure to communicate, a Cool Hand Luke problem.
quote:
Captain: You gonna get used to wearing them chains after a while, Luke. Don't you never stop listening to them clinking, 'cause they gonna remind you what I been saying for your own good.
Luke: I wish you'd stop being so good to me, Cap'n.
Captain: Don't you ever talk that way to me. (pause, then hitting him) NEVER! NEVER! (Luke rolls down hill; to other prisoners) What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.(wikipedia "what we've got here is a failure to communicate")
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Does any of that give you any pause for reconsidering your own apparent "absolute certainty" that he doesn't generally so act?
All the time. Your point is?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Ingo, reading much of this thread prompts me to ask if only, or mainly, your faith and thus argument is driven by fact-truth and logic alone? Is there any component for you driven by beauty or more specifically aesthetics? Or personal experience of joy? Or of mystic connection, what psychologists call "flow"?
I'm thinking we've got a a failure to communicate
If you really think that IngoB hasn't given enough info at this point in this thread to make the answer to that question blindingly obvious, what I think we have here is a failure to comprehend.
Seriously, what would it take for some of you guys to drop some of your - and I use the term advisedly - prejudices?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Does any of that give you any pause for reconsidering your own apparent "absolute certainty" that he doesn't generally so act?
All the time. Your point is?
My current point is that you could have fooled me. Your last question to IngoB was of the form, "When will you just admit you're wrong?"
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Does any of that give you any pause for reconsidering your own apparent "absolute certainty" that he doesn't generally so act?
All the time. Your point is?
My current point is that you could have fooled me. Your last question to IngoB was of the form, "When will you just admit you're wrong?"
I'm sorry. Are you implying he's never wrong?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm sorry. Are you implying he's never wrong?
Er, no. I'd have said that if I'd meant that - and mousethief would have promptly peed with glee.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
If you really think that IngoB hasn't given enough info at this point in this thread to make the answer to that question blindingly obvious, what I think we have here is a failure to comprehend.
Seriously, what would it take for some of you guys to drop some of your - and I use the term advisedly - prejudices?
No, that's not it, it's the astounding rigidity and wondering if it's for real. And incredulity about it. The apparent incapacity to switch modes of discourse (and what this represents about psychological and psychosocial functioning). And wondering, though now less about being trifled with on various board threads. Though less after all of these pages, as you note.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Genuinely, no prophet, your incredulity baffles me.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
True story, I had a heck of a lot of fun with the mutual teasing going on on the 2048 thread. Maybe my sole reason for participating in this thread is the jonesing for Bingo- fun that exchange created.
Obviously it is not my place to suggest anything to anyone, but I do wonder how much of these problems with communication would become less grating on all of us if we met Bingo more in play and in prayer?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
True story, I had a heck of a lot of fun with the mutual teasing going on on the 2048 thread. Maybe my sole reason for participating in this thread is the jonesing for Bingo- fun that exchange created.
Obviously it is not my place to suggest anything to anyone, but I do wonder how much of these problems with communication would become less grating on all of us if we met Bingo more in play and in prayer?
<tangent>
Your generosity of spirit is truly inspirational.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Codependant fixiness. Bingo called me on it, and he's probably right. I'm just not used to being the fixy one in the equation, so didn't recognize it in myself.
I still think it would be cool, though. I like it when people surprise me.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
I think you're selling yourself short. Truly. I wasn't just talking about this thread.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(Scuffs floor with foot) M'kay.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Oh my goodness. Just get a room you two. This is Hell and such niceness is in poor taste. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Obviously it is not my place to suggest anything to anyone, but I do wonder how much of these problems with communication would become less grating on all of us if we met Bingo more in play and in prayer?
I'm game. But first he'd have to play and pray in our vicinity.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm sorry, I was under the mistaken impression that this was Simon's website, not yours. Everything is now clear, and I for one welcome our new Roman Catholic overlord. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I'm telling you what I will do, within the limits of what Simon (by H&A proxy) is allowing for his website. I'm precisely not telling you what you have to do, only how I will react to certain things that you might do.
Doc Tor's comment was because you talked about 'my ring' again.
You don't have a ring. Please try and grasp that. You're in a space constructed by other hands, which might allow you to participate in a spot of 'boxing', but Purgatory is not a designated boxing ring.
I don't know how many times we're going to have point this out to you. It's one thing for you to say that what you're doing is within the Ship rules. It's quite another to talk as if others should be behaving in the same way, and that if you somehow hurt them with your boxing then it's THEIR fault for wandering into 'the boxing ring'.
If there is one thing in this thread that you need to take away with you, it's that message. Don't assume that other people are boxing. Don't even assume it if they make some kind of giggly uncoordinated slap in your direction.
Because it's precisely these unstated assumptions about the rules of engagement, on both sides that get you dragged down here. You assume that others are here to box, like you. Other assume that you are here for a intellectually stimulating chat, like them.
[ 01. May 2014, 03:11: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And I call bullshit on the suggestion that I do not listen or have no respect for other Shipmates. I can only assume that this notion derives from the idea that listening means agreeing and respecting means accepting as true / good / beautiful. But for me, it is simply the case that I do not agree with many things people say here, and I often do not accept as true / good / beautiful where they are at. However, I very carefully listen to what people have to say and often spend a lot of time in adapting my response accordingly. Furthermore, I try to give due consideration to all responses, even where I'm getting absolutely swamped with them. That in my eyes is showing them respect.
I'm absolutely certain this is how you believe you act.
Does the number of people telling you otherwise give you the tiniest pause for introspection?
Hmmm.... What IngoB says seems to me to match up very well with what I see in those posts of his that I read, especially the parts about spending a lot of time adapting his response and giving due consideration to all responses. As far as I can tell, he does both of those far more than the average poster does.
I have come to the belief that when most of us try to understand what someone else says, we tend to start with an idea of what we would mean if we said the same thing (at least when we're trying to understand someone we don't know very well). IngoB is willing to be blunt in a way that many of us would be only if we were being contemptuous and mean, which makes it hard to avoid the conclusion that he is being contemptuous and mean. So I have to wonder if that might be the crux of the issue. If so, the issue would seem to be pretty much unresolvable, although you seem to have found a resolution of sorts for yourself.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Don't assume that other people are boxing. Don't even assume it if they make some kind of giggly uncoordinated slap in your direction.
Because it's precisely these unstated assumptions about the rules of engagement, on both sides that get you dragged down here. You assume that others are here to box, like you. Other assume that you are here for a intellectually stimulating chat, like them.
This.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
This.
Quite. People are all different; they have different styles and approaches to things. I personally don't have a huge problem with Ingo's style, I do with some other posters, and I'm sure others have a problem with me. That's fine, it's the way the world works. I know you grasp that, Ingo.
What I don't think is acceptable is that, where there is a difference in approach, your solution, as you've said it yourself, is essentially that other people need to change, or disengage with you (get out of your ring). It puts any interaction on your terms only, and necessitates that they have to change their style to fit yours, but that you don't have to reciprocate.
However, in reality, I have seen you rise above this. I mentioned the divorce and remarriage discussions earlier. I seem to remember you being called to Hell over that one (or at least it was discussed here...). And at the time, you recognised that it wasn't possible to only talk about the issue dispassionately without it affecting people. Sadly your subsequent response was to basically stop discussing it, rather than adapt your style, but at least you recognised it.
What all this means is that either you have to stay away from threads, or people will simply stay away from threads where you're strongly present (as I have). There is a third way, which involves a bit more compromise, and I think it's that which people have been pointing you towards.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I don't know how many times we're going to have point this out to you.
As far as I'm concerned, you can stop this very instant, and never ever mention it again.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's one thing for you to say that what you're doing is within the Ship rules. It's quite another to talk as if others should be behaving in the same way, and that if you somehow hurt them with your boxing then it's THEIR fault for wandering into 'the boxing ring'. If there is one thing in this thread that you need to take away with you, it's that message. Don't assume that other people are boxing. Don't even assume it if they make some kind of giggly uncoordinated slap in your direction.
The boxing ring / martial arts analogy is three things: First, it is an analysis. I think it captures what some people (like yours truly) do a lot in Purgatory, what most people do with some regularity, and what almost everybody does sometimes. If you disagree with this analysis, then that's just too bad for you. I'm firmly convinced that it is true. And I'm also firmly convinced that much of the protestations against it are not a failure of my analysis, but rather a failure of others to deal with the next step. Namely, second, it is an acknowledgement. An acknowledgement of the fact that this just is to a considerable degree why I spend a lot of my time in Purgatory. Whether that is good or bad, Christian or not, it simply is the case. Third, in answer to this realisation, it is a codification. As pointed out before, boxing and martial arts are not an all out slug fest. Indeed, they have their own set of social rules and in some sense very strong ones, because they are trying to contain something very volatile. I consciously try to stick to a code of conduct, for the lack of less pretentious words, I'm trying to be chivalrous in my engagement with the "enemy".
Because I'm firmly convinced of my analysis, I believe that there is basically nothing you can do about this. At least so at the level of general rules of SoF/Purgatory - of course you can target me personally, if you wish. But if you try to change Purgatory so as to remove "boxing" from it, then you will kill it. Even though that remains perhaps unacknowledged, it just is an essential part of what is driving the discussion there. (Indeed, both Hell and DH are direct confirmation of this, because they are both explicitly designed to contain "extreme boxing" of different forms.) And it is as with granting any freedom, if you do then you just have accept that some people will chose to live at its edges. I'm very comfortable with where I am at in Purgatory. And this here is not making me uncomfortable with what I do for the most part. It is making me uncomfortable with those who bitch about it.
So let's be clear about this. I have no intention to change my behaviour in Purgatory. I will draw no lesson from this here, because I do not think that I have to. Indeed, I consciously set my face against that, because I think this here is simply instituted social / emotional blackmail. And I just will not bow to such pressure, ever. If that makes you cry, then your face will get wet. If that makes you rage, then your blood vessels will pop. If that makes you repeat the same things over and over again, then you will be a broken record. If that makes you dismiss me, then I am dismissed.
If you cannot live with this, then you have to die to it.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Because it's precisely these unstated assumptions about the rules of engagement, on both sides that get you dragged down here. You assume that others are here to box, like you. Other assume that you are here for a intellectually stimulating chat, like them.
Fine. I see no particular reason why I should fulfil their wishes any more than they fulfil mine. I'm not dragging people here, so if they could stop dragging me here then that would be just splendid.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But if you try to change Purgatory so as to remove "boxing" from it, then you will kill it.
That's true, but I don't think that's what people want to happen in the slightest! They merely want you to recognise that sometimes "boxing" is appropriate, and sometimes it isn't, and to be able to discern the difference.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Because I'm firmly convinced of my analysis, I believe that there is basically nothing you can do about this.
Apart from tell you that you're wrong.
I mean, that's like a person who believes the moon landing was faked being firmly convinced of their analysis. Or the lovely lady we had here who was convinced that global warming wasn't real because all the carbon dioxide would be at the bottom of the atmosphere and suffocate us all.
You're a bloody scientist. You should know that being firmly convinced of an analysis isn't some kind of ironclad guarantee that the analysis isn't horribly wrong in one of its steps. If you're resolutely against any kind of attempt to suggest where there might be flaws in the analysis, how is that remotely consistent with the scientific method that you presumably use in your real life when you're being all analytical?
And goperryrevs has already hit the flaw dead-on. I specifically DID NOT SAY that you couldn't have boxing in Purgatory. What I ACTUALLY SAID was that not everyone in Purgatory boxes.
The two propositions are so fundamentally different I would have thought it's obvious. But in fact my experience with you in debates is that you slide between related but critically different propositions all the fucking time. It's actually your preferred method. You drown these slides in so many impressive words that most of your 'opponents' wouldn't notice. However, I do analysis for a living, and I'm basically the most analytical person I've ever met. I can see what you're up to, perhaps better than you can.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE BOXERS IN PURGATORY. NOT ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE IN PURGATORY ARE BOXERS.
Read and inwardly digest.
Every reply you make that has some variant of 'you can't stop me from boxing' in it just convinces me that you're not using your comprehension skills. We're not asking you to stop boxing. We're asking you to confine your boxing to people who want to box.
[ 01. May 2014, 11:31: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
Just to clarify: I can understand why IngoB's posts sometimes seem to be contemptuous and mean, but I don't think he's actually being contemptuous and mean, just blunt.
It is kinder to point out that the emperor is naked than to spare his feelings and allow him to develop hypothermia.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
Just to clarify: I can understand why IngoB's posts sometimes seem to be contemptuous and mean, but I don't think he's actually being contemptuous and mean, just blunt.
It is kinder to point out that the emperor is naked than to spare his feelings and allow him to develop hypothermia.
Conversely, I'm reminded of the story about the kind, helpful Fiona Apple fan
who decided to help Fiona with her weight problem.
(Delayed edit because I can and it won't affect anyone:) actually, the most perfect illustration of the harm that 'helpful' people can do when their analysis is off was provided by Shakespeare, when he had Romeo tell Mercutio "I thought all for the best".
[ 01. May 2014, 12:20: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
They merely want you to recognise that sometimes "boxing" is appropriate, and sometimes it isn't, and to be able to discern the difference.
But in my opinion I do that! Or to be more precise, there just are certain topics (and to some extent, certain people) that have "boxing match" written all over them, if you chose to engage from a contrary position at all. With other topics and other people this is not the case. The problem here is that just because I have no problem with this, and I even like being part of the ensuing fray (sometimes a more significant part, sometimes less), people seem to think that the entire dynamics is my responsibility and that it is my duty to do something about it. It's a sort of "you name it, you will be shamed by it" deal. But I just do wear this lightly.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE BOXERS IN PURGATORY. NOT ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE IN PURGATORY ARE BOXERS. Read and inwardly digest.
One of the most tragicomic aspects of this whole nonsense is that people who basically fail to listen to me, and make no discernible effort to grasp what I am saying, are constantly screaming at me that I must listen to them and take on board what they are saying.
It just is patently absurd that you would shout the above at me in the apparent belief that it is some kind of news to me. Seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Every reply you make that has some variant of 'you can't stop me from boxing' in it just convinces me that you're not using your comprehension skills.
Well, indeed. That's precisely what is happening here. You have mentally declared a specific target for me, and all your are using your fantastic analytical skills for is to judge whether that target has been met. If not, then you judge that I must have failed, and since I am a pretty intelligent science kind of guy, you aim your "you fail" response at that. Nothing I say actually matters in the slightest, unless it is in fulfilment of the target you have set for me. It is a purely teleological judgement, and perfectly rigid. There is a checkbox and you will make me tick it somehow, come what may.
Problem is, I won't. So here's the deal. You have been spending a massive amount of time covering every available surface around me with mirrors. And I look into them and say "Still looking pretty darn good." Now you can try to find some other spot to put a mirror on, in the hope that I will finally see my true image. Or you can smash all the mirrors in a rage. Or you can just give up. Or perhaps, and admittedly this is an entirely remote possibility, you could use those mirrors to take a long look at yourself?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I'm sorry, but did goperryrevs somehow misquote you?
You accuse me of generating fantasies when there was a direct quote involved.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE BOXERS IN PURGATORY. NOT ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE IN PURGATORY ARE BOXERS. Read and inwardly digest.
One of the most tragicomic aspects of this whole nonsense is that people who basically fail to listen to me, and make no discernible effort to grasp what I am saying, are constantly screaming at me that I must listen to them and take on board what they are saying.
Hasn't it occurred to you that you could be misunderstood not as a consequence of the shortcomings of others, but because of a lack of clarity in your posts?
You've got to remember your audience.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But in my opinion I do that!
Meh, my opinion's that you sometimes do, but quite often do not. Whatever - I can't change your perception. Like I said, I don't have any huge problem with you - just that I've learnt to avoid engaging with you on certain topics, which could well be down to my own issues as much as anything. I've said my piece. Pax.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
You've got to remember your audience.
A scurrilous lie. The words come down from the mountain, perfectly formed. Let he who has ears to hear, hear.
[ 01. May 2014, 12:25: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
You've got to remember your audience.
A scurrilous lie. The words come down from the mountain, perfectly formed. Let he who has ears to hear, hear.
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The true listener will of course not hear Ingo equate Purgatory with a boxing ring, ever. At no time has he slipped from 'there is boxing in Purgatory' to 'Purgatory is a boxing ring' while completely ignoring the difference between these two propositions.
Nor they will they ever hear him draw any conclusions about the appropriate location of non-boxers from this equation. For yea, verily, he has never made such conclusions. It is by some devilish trickery that the dust on the front of your computer monitor forms shapes that imitate letters that would say these things.
And yet more devilish trickery that makes the dust scroll when you scroll.
[ 01. May 2014, 12:31: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
Just to clarify: I can understand why IngoB's posts sometimes seem to be contemptuous and mean, but I don't think he's actually being contemptuous and mean, just blunt.
Depending on context, it can be contemptuous and mean to be blunt.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The true listener will of course not hear Ingo equate Purgatory with a boxing ring, ever.
Posts of mine on this thread where the existence of "non-boxers" in Purgatory is acknowledged / discussed: one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and ten.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The true listener will of course not hear Ingo equate Purgatory with a boxing ring, ever.
Posts of mine on this thread where the existence of "non-boxers" in Purgatory is acknowledged / discussed: one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and ten.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
It's like you can't even see the difference between my sentence and your sentence.
EDIT: Even though examples three and four are exactly where I came in and tried to explain the difference to you in the first place!
[ 01. May 2014, 13:54: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But you'll still punch them, right? Your ring, remember?
Exactly. This has been the whole freaking point the entire time that I've been criticising this analogy. If a non-boxer is in a boxing ring, a boxer feels justified in hitting them or at the very least being irritated at them and telling them to get out of the way. It's the boxer's rightful space. They are exhibiting the correct behaviour for the space.
No such justification exists when a boxer and non-boxer are sharing space that is not a boxing ring.
You can see it. I can see it. The one person who can't bloody well see it is the person who needs to see it to comprehend the problem.
To bastardise a well-known hammer/nail analogy, to a man wearing boxing gloves every room looks like a boxing ring. But "I am boxing, therefore I am in a boxing ring" is a logical fallacy. A fallacy that Ingo has repeated any number of times, including in some of the freaking bloody posts he's linking to show me just how much he has it all together.
[ 01. May 2014, 14:07: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The true listener will of course not hear Ingo equate Purgatory with a boxing ring, ever.
Posts of mine on this thread where the existence of "non-boxers" in Purgatory is acknowledged / discussed: one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and ten.
IngoB, did you see upthread where orfeo said that you 'slide between related but critically different propositions all the fucking time'? You've nicely provided exhibit A for the prosecution here - orfeo said 'The true listener will of course not hear Ingo equate Purgatory with a boxing ring, ever' and, in response, you noted several points at which you've said there are 'non-boxers' in Purgatory.
Was that deliberate or not? Do you in fact see Purgatory as a boxing ring, albeit one in which there are several non-boxers? (But they're in a boxing ring so it's okay to hit them.) Or do you think Purgatory is not really like a boxing ring, but can sometimes share some of the characteristics of one?
EDIT - what orfeo said!
[ 01. May 2014, 14:10: Message edited by: South Coast Kevin ]
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
When dogs are afraid they often fight. When people are afraid they often fight too.
"Do not be afraid" comes up time and again in the Bible.
Maybe using Purgatory as a place to fight is a sign of fear for loss of your faith IngoB? 'The harder I fight and hone my skills, the stronger my faith will become so I don't need to fear losing it'?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
When dogs are afraid they often fight. When people are afraid they often fight too.
"Do not be afraid" comes up time and again in the Bible.
Maybe using Purgatory as a place to fight is a sign of fear for loss of your faith IngoB? 'The harder I fight and hone my skills, the stronger my faith will become so I don't need to fear losing it'?
How brilliantly wet.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
Just to clarify: I can understand why IngoB's posts sometimes seem to be contemptuous and mean, but I don't think he's actually being contemptuous and mean, just blunt.
It is kinder to point out that the emperor is naked than to spare his feelings and allow him to develop hypothermia.
Kinder to offer one's cloak
[ 01. May 2014, 14:43: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
How brilliantly wet.
By 'wet' you mean "Showing a lack of forcefulness or strength of character; feeble:" (Oxford dictionary)?
This has been said of many people who refuse to fight.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
"Wet" was an insult that thugs often used of me as a child. I wear it as a badge of honour; it means "not an insensitive thug".
I take much the same view of Thatcher's use of the word.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But you'll still punch them, right? Your ring, remember?
Indeed. If you may be so kind as to remember that "punching" here merely means a blunt / stark statement of my opinion, if potentially made with emotional engagement (pace Kelly), which aims to refute the opinion of another poster thoroughly (without particularly caring about their emotional state). And if you would like to remember as well that this does not happen all the time at "punch level", but mostly for specific topics and with specific people - though some people might get caught in the "crossfire". I know, I know, little details... but sometimes details are important.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's like you can't even see the difference between my sentence and your sentence.
The true listener cannot hear me equating Purgatory with a boxing ring, certainly not any longer, because he would have heard me saying contrary things in at least ten different posts.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If a non-boxer is in a boxing ring, a boxer feels justified in hitting them or at the very least being irritated at them and telling them to get out of the way. It's the boxer's rightful space. They are exhibiting the correct behaviour for the space. No such justification exists when a boxer and non-boxer are sharing space that is not a boxing ring.
The true listener orfeo clearly suffers from selective amnesia, so let me repeat and summarise my points made earlier (see the ten posts). Sticking with the analogy, Purgatory is multi-purpose community hall. There is a sign at the door "Feel free to come in to do whatever activity, as long as you can stand getting hit." In this hall, there is no separation by rooms or timetable. In fact, even worse, most people that come here switch at the drop of a hat between different activities. In this setting I mostly hang out where I think martial arts type of stuff is going to happen, because I like doing that sort of thing. Of course, it occasionally happens that some origami person walks into a sparring session. Then they get hit, which going by the sign at the door, they should be able to deal with. Sometimes however instead of picking themselves up and either going elsewhere or hitting back, they whine loudly and endlessly how this would be a much better place if I did origami instead.
That's all this here is to me. Really.
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Do you in fact see Purgatory as a boxing ring, albeit one in which there are several non-boxers? (But they're in a boxing ring so it's okay to hit them.) Or do you think Purgatory is not really like a boxing ring, but can sometimes share some of the characteristics of one?
Including this one, there are now at least eleven posts that you can read to see what I really think about that.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Maybe using Purgatory as a place to fight is a sign of fear for loss of your faith IngoB?
Maybe. Or maybe not. Will we ever find out? A cliffhanger that has lasted a decade already, it must be some kind of record...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Sticking with the analogy, Purgatory is multi-purpose community hall. There is a sign at the door "Feel free to come in to do whatever activity, as long as you can stand getting hit."
You, Sir, are the most intelligent idiot it has ever been my misfortune to encounter.
"Okay okay, I'll call it a hall... but we all really know it's just like a boxing ring"
Goodnight.
[ 01. May 2014, 15:00: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
How brilliantly wet.
There's some more wetness here:
quote:
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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