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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Miscellaneous questions of a liturgical nature
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Since Gaudete Sunday is coming up - do shades of rose for vestments vary much? It seems that out of the four main liturgical colours, only green vestments vary much in hue.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Since Gaudete Sunday is coming up - do shades of rose for vestments vary much? It seems that out of the four main liturgical colours, only green vestments vary much in hue.
I've seen Pepto-Bismol pink "rose" vestments, and I've seen ours, which are of a slightly orange salmon-like hue, and the orphreys are a dill-like green. Sounds weird, but as salmon and dill go well together, so do those two colors. Have a look.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Since Gaudete Sunday is coming up - do shades of rose for vestments vary much? It seems that out of the four main liturgical colours, only green vestments vary much in hue.
I'd say red's the most constant. Purple's the hardest to match when you have two people wearing vestments not from a set, as there are so many shades of purple around. White should be simple, but white vestments are rarely pure white, so it's the other colors (including any yellow/gold) that ends up varying. Red tends to just be red though.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I'd say red's the most constant.
Hmm, Passion red? Martyr's red? Palm Sunday red? dark red? bright red? Fire engine red? Post boz red? I'd say that red has about as many difficulties in matching as the other colours - maybe black and Lenten array are about the only two 'fixed' - though I'm more than ready to be shown to be wrong (again!)
[ 13. December 2013, 02:19: Message edited by: Emendator Liturgia ]
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Oblatus
Those vestments are ORANGE. You can say salmon all you like but the only kind of salmon that colour falls into the category "cheap, smoked". And Dill the colour of those orfrey's would be long past its best.
Rose colour vestments should have the gentle hue of sloe gin and water 50/50. Ideally Laetare vestments should have purple or mauve orfreys.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I'd say those vestments are coral but certainly treading a fine line between pink and orange. A nice colour but not sure I'd approve of their use for rose vestments.
Has anyone seen a darker rose used?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
The Roman rubrics and related documents actually use the word violet, rather than purple. Still, I have seen numerous hues of this, including an attempt to say that the violet in Advent should be lighter than it is in Lent. This is not supported by the rubrics or any other document from the Holy See.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Went to a wedding on Saturday- lovely service- but slightly surprised to see the Vicar in eucharistic vestments (the usual stuff: cassock-alb, stole, chasuble), although there wasn't a nuptial Mass.
Is this - specifically the chasuble- as unusual as I think it is? We're talking AffCath CinW, btw.
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Perhaps his other vestments were at the cleaners. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
(I'm afraid I know nothing about these things).
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Seems a bit strange to me, never come across this before...
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
Yes it is definitely as unusual as you think, IMHO!
Eucharistic vestments with no Eucharistic celebration? As odd as someone wearing a diving suit on a train.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
The cope is worn in place of the chasuble if the service (nuptial or otherwise) is non-eucharistic. Any cleric wearing a chasuble for non-eucharistic worship, is IMHO going one-step-too-far trendy.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
Vicar probably thought, "If everyone else is dressed to the nines, by golly, I will be too!".
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
He could at least have gotten out his biretta.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Two years ago, as I reported here, Solemn Evensong for Candlesmas Transferred at Truro Cathedral was presided over by a priest in a red chasuble.
I appreciate that was not Boring Middle of the Road, but it was still unnecessary, to my mind. Just because Rome would use a Gold cope, doesn't mean you can't.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
He could at least have gotten out his biretta.
She hasn't got one, AFAIK.
She's a very good Vicar and I have a lot of time for her but she can be a bit random at times. Still, that's part of what makes her what she is.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Rose colour vestments should have the gentle hue of sloe gin and water 50/50. Ideally Laetare vestments should have purple or mauve orfreys.
It's very Eccles to describe vestment colours by reference to gin! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
He could at least have gotten out his biretta.
She hasn't got one, AFAIK.
She's a very good Vicar and I have a lot of time for her but she can be a bit random at times. Still, that's part of what makes her what she is.
Laughs, indeed. This is what happens when you let a priest dress themself. She was already attired when I entered the vestry and I was in off duty mode and didn't think chasuble for wedding= odd I'm afraid, even when I entered duty mode to sort microphones out.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Rose colour vestments should have the gentle hue of sloe gin and water 50/50.
Water in sloe gin? Sacrilege!!!
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
Posted this a few days ago but it ended up at the bottom of the last page and I think it got missed.
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
When I'm serving I sometimes find that the priest moves on to the offertory prayers before I've got the lavabo ready, but they've fitted it in after the offertory prayers. Well, the starting on the next bit before the lavabo happened today except in that order there aren't any offertory prayers, so what she started on was the sursum corda, so I put down the lavabo, but she'd noticed me getting ready and so stopped after the sursum corda to do the lavabo. I felt this was odd. What do others think?
Carys
Realised today there is an offertory prayer in that order, but she skipped it.
(This is a different church/priest to last post)
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I don't generally have lavabos to worry about but my take would be that once you've started the Eucharistic Prayer you carry on unless you discover a major omission (bread or wine for example!).
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
When I'm serving I sometimes find that the priest moves on to the offertory prayers before I've got the lavabo ready, but they've fitted it in after the offertory prayers. Well, the starting on the next bit before the lavabo happened today except in that order there aren't any offertory prayers, so what she started on was the sursum corda, so I put down the lavabo, but she'd noticed me getting ready and so stopped after the sursum corda to do the lavabo. I felt this was odd. What do others think?
Carys
We usually have the lavabo between the incense and the "Suscipe, Sancte Trinitas"--i.e., after the offering of the elements. It kind of makes sense that you'd rinse your hands after handling the thurible.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
This is one of the reasons why using different orders is such a singularly a bad idea: we spend so much time thinking about how to do it that we forget to remember that we are doing it.
The ritual impedes the myth, when it is supposed to serve it.
Then when we have broken the integrity of the whole, we set off in search of strange forms of meditation to recover the mindfulness we lost by mucking around too much with the rite, one, two, three, and 3A.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
This is one of the reasons why using different orders is such a singularly a bad idea: we spend so much time thinking about how to do it that we forget to remember that we are doing it.
The ritual impedes the myth, when it is supposed to serve it.
Then when we have broken the integrity of the whole, we set off in search of strange forms of meditation to recover the mindfulness we lost by mucking around too much with the rite, one, two, three, and 3A.
Vox clamantis in deserto!
(a voice crying in the wilderness)
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I agree. The point about having ritual directions is that you don't have to take any notice of the ritual for its own sake.
The question is which ritual directions to choose, and even before the liturgical movement there were always options and nuances.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
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Posted
I have a question about adding saints to the Eucharistic Prayers used in the Episcopal Church. I'm not being too exhaustive here, but I know in Prayer B and D in the Book of Common Prayer and Prayers 1, 2, and 3 in Enriching our Worship allow for this. My question: is there any order, rhyme, or reason, beyond adding the saint whose day is commemorated? In Christmas is it usual to add Mary and Joseph? In Advent, John the Baptist? Also, is there a formula? Must Peter and Paul always be included? Or the patron saint of a church?
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by NatDogg:
I have a question about adding saints to the Eucharistic Prayers used in the Episcopal Church. I'm not being too exhaustive here, but I know in Prayer B and D in the Book of Common Prayer and Prayers 1, 2, and 3 in Enriching our Worship allow for this. My question: is there any order, rhyme, or reason, beyond adding the saint whose day is commemorated? In Christmas is it usual to add Mary and Joseph? In Advent, John the Baptist? Also, is there a formula? Must Peter and Paul always be included? Or the patron saint of a church?
Our celebrants' standard practice is to say, "...the ever-blessed Virgin Mary; St. Anne, her mother; St. Michael the Archangel, our patron; and all your saints..." Our parish is served by the sisters of the Order of St. Anne, and the parish cornerstone was laid under the patronage of St. Michael the Archangel. Other saints having to do with the day, such as St. John the Baptist last Sunday, are added at the end. One former priest associate at the parish would always add the saint of the day after St. Anne, thus always ending with St. Michael, possibly for better flow. I do that pattern at Evening Prayer when there's a similar spot (Suffrages B, for instance).
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I would expect Mary to be added at every celebration. There seem to be two schools of thought,either naming her first or last. Both patterns are presumably meant to give her star billing.
I don't know about TEC, but there's no official guidance on this question in the C of E.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Yes, at my church Mary is always added, with St Paul our patron and any saint being commemorated that day, if there is one.
Naturally, evangelical churches in the CoE do not mention Mary or individual saints, if they mention saints at all.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
A friend is to be priested in January and would value an ordination gift with a bit of history, rather than out of M*****s catalogue. I vaguely recall hearing years ago of somewhere that adopted 'pre-loved' mass sets, vestments etc and sold them on to deserving causes.
Ring any bells with anyone?
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
A friend is to be priested in January and would value an ordination gift with a bit of history, rather than out of M*****s catalogue. I vaguely recall hearing years ago of somewhere that adopted 'pre-loved' mass sets, vestments etc and sold them on to deserving causes.
Ring any bells with anyone?
French Treasures may be the site you are thinking of. They used to be very much specialized in French RC vestments of the pre-Vatican II era, but they seem to have branched out, so you can now find Gothic as well as Roman chasubles, etc...
Luzar Vestments is another site, one which I just stumbled upon via google.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by NatDogg:
I have a question about adding saints to the Eucharistic Prayers used in the Episcopal Church. I'm not being too exhaustive here, but I know in Prayer B and D in the Book of Common Prayer and Prayers 1, 2, and 3 in Enriching our Worship allow for this. My question: is there any order, rhyme, or reason, beyond adding the saint whose day is commemorated? In Christmas is it usual to add Mary and Joseph? In Advent, John the Baptist? Also, is there a formula? Must Peter and Paul always be included? Or the patron saint of a church?
I would not go so far as to call it a formula - it isn't in the rubrics- but in my experience when specific saints are mentioned in Prayer B the form used is The Blessed Virgin Mary, then the Parish's patron saints, if any, and finally the saint of the day. So in St. John's Church on December 6 the form would be "with the ever Blessed Virgin Mary, the holy saints John, St. Nicholas and all your saints". I can't recall a saint of the day ever being mentioned on a Sunday that was not a patronal festival. Of course, in Prayer D, if you mention any saints at all, you must put the Blessed virgin first, and mention many categories of saints, before you come to any specifics. I suspect that any priest low-church enough to omit the Blessed Virgin is also low-church enough to object to mentioning specific saints at all.
[ 24. December 2013, 18:04: Message edited by: Try ]
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
History of Church of England/Anglican vestments after the Reformation but prior to the Oxford Movement (what is now called Anglican "choir dress"):
Did Anglican choir dress, other than the surplice, just come from academic dress?
I can see the surplice as having become the norm for what clergy wear to Sunday services because it was not explicitly associated with a Sacrificial Mass like a chasuble or with an ordained priesthood like a stole - but was tippett, which largely replaced the stole until the Oxford movement, something taken from academic wear or did it come from somewhere else? Was it associated with preaching before it began to be used in the Church of England? Before scarves like it began to be used by Protestants?
As for a bishop's rochet, chimere, and canterbury cap - was there any ecclesiastical use of these - especially in worship - before the Reformation? Were they academic dress, choir vestments, clerical street wear, or fashion that lay people wore as well? When did they start to be worn in worship? Did they originally represent anything other than the office of bishop?
Academic hoods, I assume, started out in universities and began to be worn by Anglican clergy as evidence of the education that gave them authority to preach. Is this true? Is there anything more to how they began to be used in worship?
I could ask similar questions about preaching tabs, for those who wore them. Did they originate in academia? Were they stricly associated with the reformation?
I know that prior to the Oxford movement (and until much later in many places) Morning Prayer was the principal Anglican Sunday service. However, when Holy Communion was celebrated, how long was it after the Reformation that surplice (possibly with tippett and/or academic hood and/or preaching tabs) for priests/ministers and rochet, chimere, canterbury cap (was this worn in worship?), etc., for bishops became the norm to the exclusion of all other vestments even at the eucharist (with the exception of copes in some places)? I know there was a dispute over legally authorized/required vestments up to and during the Elizabethan settlement but when did the controversy die down and a period of relative vestment conformity set in (with the exception of Puritans who preferred no vestments at all)?
When did ministers in the C of E stop wearing different vestments for Holy Communion than they would at other worship services? When did chasubles, maniples, mitres, croziers, etc., stop being used? I know Ritualists argued they were never prohibited, but prior to the Oxford movement, did most Anglicans believe that they were prohibited? If so why? If not, why didn't they wear them?
Should this have its own thread?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Was anyone watching 'Call the Midwife' on Christmas Day? Did anyone spot what I think was quite a serious liturgical error, a special Christmas gift to ecclesiastical nerds everywhere?
Answer tomorrow.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
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Posted
I noticed that in the church in which the (Church ofEngland) wedding scene was set the altar was placed as for ad populum celebrations - an anachronism.
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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
I noticed that in the church in which the (Church of England) wedding scene was set the altar was placed as for ad populum celebrations - an anachronism.
Bang on. I'm surprised it's taken all day for someone to spot it. Award yourself six gold candlesticks.
There was a reference to girls all wanting a wedding dress like Princess Grace's. That dates the episode as in 1956 give or take a few months.
In the 1956 CofE, whether you were high, low or whatever, altars were virtually invariably up agains the far eastern wall with a communion rail in front of them. At that date, I'd query whether anyone had even thought of laying them out any other way, rather than arguing about how many candles they should have on them or where the priest should stand. They didn't start being moved forwards so that he could stand behind them even in the most progressive places until the 1970s.
The one in the wedding also didn't have a rail. Altars without rails aren't that usual even now, but I'd recall them as being as good as unknown then.
So as anachronisms go, this is even more serious than a railway engine in the wrong livery or the wrong sort of aeroplane in the wrong war.
There was a smaller anachronism in that there was a Dansette in one scene. They may have been available that early, but they really belong to the next decade.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
Apparently the episode was dated 1958 according to the RT. Nave altars were extremely rare in the late 1950s, but not unknown. I have seen a picture of a westward-facing Nave Altar celebration from that time in St Mary Primrose Hill (for the family service) and several other London churches began using them experimentally in the early 60s. Of course, these were makeshift ones that stood in the Nave for the service and were then wheeled - or carried - away. IIRC St Paul's Bow Common also opened in 1958, with its revolutionary new design. But despite all this, communion was always received kneeling at a rail.
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Lay person question, hope it hasn't been asked, I did read back a few pages -- all praise to the moderators.
After my Lutheran pastor puts the wafer into my hand and says her line, I turn toward the assistant (the silent acolyte?) with the cup for intinction. At that point should I say "Thank you," or "Amen" or nothing at all?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
amen or nothing
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Most Lutheran liturgical books will give a direction like "The communicant may respond, 'Amen.'"
It's all a matter of personal devotion. In many Lutheran churches, it runs from people crossing themselves and saying amen, to people simply receiving and walking away. Do what feels right to you, and be assured that you're free to do so. Luther himself clarified this--that acts of devotion or piety are neither forbidden nor essential.
(Edited to add: I've never heard Thank you, so you might get an eyebrow raise or two, until people become used to you. I have heard Thanks be to God on a couple occasions.)
[ 29. December 2013, 15:47: Message edited by: Olaf ]
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Thanks, Lily Pad and Olaf. I usually say "Amen," but never hear anyone else say anything so maybe they're just very soft spoken or "nothing," is the custom in this particular church. I was raised Methodist so Lutheranism is all new to me.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Thanks, Lily Pad and Olaf. I usually say "Amen," but never hear anyone else say anything so maybe they're just very soft spoken or "nothing," is the custom in this particular church. I was raised Methodist so Lutheranism is all new to me.
Even I give a soft spoken amen. When it comes to action with the liturgy, Lutherans tend to be quite soft-spoken, almost apologetic. We are also very hesitant, thus explaining why we do not enthusiastically stand or sit even though we know very well when to do so. Instead we wait for someone else to start it.
Our soft spoken ways do not extend to budget meetings, coffee hours, or gossip.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
As Garrison Keillor says, those people who go crazy with an assault rifle in a local grocery store are never Lutherans: Lutherans just wouldn't feel comfortable drawing that much attention to themselves. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
A quick question regarding (Catholic) Morning and Evening Prayer for January 2.
There is a Memoria set down that day for St Basil and St Gregory Nazianzen in the General Calendar, with Propers for the Benedictus anthem and the Concluding Prayer. The Ordinary?/Proper? for January 2 in Christmastide also has a Benedictus anthem and Concluding Prayer (among other things) set down for the same day.
Given that an Obligatory Memoria in the General Calendar (as is the memoria for St B and St GN) outranks a weekday of Christmastide from January 2 onwards - and given that paragraph 126 C of the Introduction says that the Concluding Prayer on an obligatory memoria is taken from the Office of the Saint - WHY does the office for 2 January specify a Concluding Prayer (and Benedictus anthem) when these are ALWAYS going to be outranked either by the memoria for St B and St GN in the General Calendar, or by some higher ranking celebration in a particular calendar?
Am I missing something? The Concluding Prayer of the office for 2 January in Christmastide appears to be a prayer that NEVER should be said. Why then is it there? Have I misunderstood the rules governing precedence and the celebration of memorias in Christmastide (from 2 January onwards)?
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Adam.
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Posted
We'll use that prayer (the Jan-2 prayer) to conclude the PotF at Mass, thus situating the Memorial within its seasonal context.
[ 31. December 2013, 13:02: Message edited by: Hart ]
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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MSHB
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
We'll use that prayer (the Jan-2 prayer) to conclude the PotF at Mass, thus situating the Memorial within its seasonal context.
As a general note, that approach would also allow you to commemorate several unrelated saints whose days happen to coincide (e.g. 20 January has two optional memorias - St Fabian and also St Sebastian).
Presumably the Opening Prayer at Mass on 2 January should be from the Proper for St B and St GN, rather than from the Thursday in Christmastide between 2 January and Epiphany?
My particular puzzle, though, concerns Morning and Evening Prayer: why do they provide a Concluding Prayer for 2 January in Christmastide when you should always use the Concluding Prayer from the Proper for St B and ST GN on that day (or else the Concluding Prayer from some other celebration, like a saint in a particular calendar or - on a Sunday - the Concluding Prayer from the Second Sunday after Christmas)?
This has me stumped.
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Basilica
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
My particular puzzle, though, concerns Morning and Evening Prayer: why do they provide a Concluding Prayer for 2 January in Christmastide when you should always use the Concluding Prayer from the Proper for St B and ST GN on that day (or else the Concluding Prayer from some other celebration, like a saint in a particular calendar or - on a Sunday - the Concluding Prayer from the Second Sunday after Christmas)?
This has me stumped.
Perhaps it allows for transferring the feast day to a Sunday for a patronal festival? Do patronal festivals get transferred in the Catholic Church?
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MSHB
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
My particular puzzle, though, concerns Morning and Evening Prayer: why do they provide a Concluding Prayer for 2 January in Christmastide when you should always use the Concluding Prayer from the Proper for St B and ST GN on that day (or else the Concluding Prayer from some other celebration, like a saint in a particular calendar or - on a Sunday - the Concluding Prayer from the Second Sunday after Christmas)?
This has me stumped.
Perhaps it allows for transferring the feast day to a Sunday for a patronal festival? Do patronal festivals get transferred in the Catholic Church?
That's an interesting thought.
As far as I can see, being the "Titular of one's own church" (=patronal festival?) would plausibly elevate the saints' day to a solemnity, and that would take precedence over a Sunday in Christmastide.
I haven't found any indication that it could be transferred to another day, such that the ordinary 2 January would be celebrated instead, but Epiphany is often transferred to Sunday, so maybe it is customary for some other solemnities to be transferred in a similar fashion. This is not a subject I know much about. I only have the book with Morning and Evening Prayer and the rules provided in the introduction and calendar.
The possibility of the saints' day being celebrated on (transferred to) another date, such as you have suggested, is the only solution I can see at present.
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Ceremoniar
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Posted
New Year = time for a new miscellaneous thread, no? ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Clotilde
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Posted
A quick question sparked off in my mind by Forthview's questions about Pope Francis.
Is it 'allowed' for a cantor to sing the Eucharistic preface if a priest can't sing?
I know in Cathedrals of the Church of England lay people sing the priest's part in Evensong if the priest can't. Does that happen at the Eucharist?
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Ceremoniar
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clotilde:
A quick question sparked off in my mind by Forthview's questions about Pope Francis.
Is it 'allowed' for a cantor to sing the Eucharistic preface if a priest can't sing?
I know in Cathedrals of the Church of England lay people sing the priest's part in Evensong if the priest can't. Does that happen at the Eucharist?
Nope. Certainly from a Catholic perspective, it cannot be done, as the preface is a priestly prayer. It is part of the action of the anaphora.
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