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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Miscellaneous questions of a liturgical nature
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by crunt:
I was taught to merely 'wet my lips' with the wine in the chalice (also, it was the custom for the chalice bearer to keep hold of the cup). As an adult, it has come as something of a revelation to find that people actually drink TMPB!
And some chalice-bearers want the last person to finish it up, while others of the more obsessive variety want some left over for the ablutions. The ones who want it finished usually give some sort of signal, or just say so.
Olaf
Frequent Back Corner Dweller
That last person had better not be me. I'm fine with a tiny sip, but much more than that makes me turn purple and deathly ill (it's that whole Asian flush alcohol lack of alcohol dehydrogenase thing), and since as a result I've never developed a taste for alcohol, I find all alcohol revolting. Our rector has on occasion asked me to help down the chalice when it's particularly full for the ablutions. The first time I acquiesced, but now when she asks (and she should know better) I make a face.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by crunt:
I was taught to merely 'wet my lips' with the wine in the chalice (also, it was the custom for the chalice bearer to keep hold of the cup). As an adult, it has come as something of a revelation to find that people actually drink TMPB!
And some chalice-bearers want the last person to finish it up, while others of the more obsessive variety want some left over for the ablutions. The ones who want it finished usually give some sort of signal, or just say so.
Olaf
Frequent Back Corner Dweller
That last person had better not be me. I'm fine with a tiny sip, but much more than that makes me turn purple and deathly ill (it's that whole Asian flush alcohol lack of alcohol dehydrogenase thing), and since as a result I've never developed a taste for alcohol, I find all alcohol revolting. Our rector has on occasion asked me to help down the chalice when it's particularly full for the ablutions. The first time I acquiesced, but now when she asks (and she should know better) I make a face.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Given that there needs to be Real Presence for Christ to be present in both bread and wine at the same time, I don't think memorialists would look too fondly on concomitance.
The BCP & XXXIX both exclude memorialism. I'd think a memorialist in the C of E would be placing himself outside the church at any rate.
There are quite a lot of memorialists in the CoE and until recently a memorialist bishop.
[ 13. November 2013, 00:24: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Why would you want some left for ablutions? I'm happy to consume before I start purifying vessels, but the point of purifying is to leave no trace of the precious blood in the vessels. Less for me to do if the EMs (or the last communicant) can consume before the cups get to me.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Given that there needs to be Real Presence for Christ to be present in both bread and wine at the same time, I don't think memorialists would look too fondly on concomitance.
The BCP & XXXIX both exclude memorialism. I'd think a memorialist in the C of E would be placing himself outside the church at any rate.
I do it by believing in transubstantiation.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by crunt:
I was taught to merely 'wet my lips' with the wine in the chalice (also, it was the custom for the chalice bearer to keep hold of the cup). As an adult, it has come as something of a revelation to find that people actually drink TMPB!
We were taught to have a sip. Not a gulp, but enough to swallow.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by crunt:
I was taught to merely 'wet my lips' with the wine in the chalice (also, it was the custom for the chalice bearer to keep hold of the cup). As an adult, it has come as something of a revelation to find that people actually drink TMPB!
We were taught to have a sip. Not a gulp, but enough to swallow.
When I'm the chalice bearer, I administer a gulp, whatever amount the communicant intended to consume. It means I get less drunk at the end of the service.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
When I'm the chalice bearer, I administer a gulp, whatever amount the communicant intended to consume. It means I get less drunk at the end of the service.
I was recently administered a forced gulp, and it was very weird. The chalice bearer kept tipping the chalice toward me long after I received a sip, and I had to keep consuming to prevent having a spill. It really felt like aggression from the chalice bearer, and I considered grunting or something to get it to stop. I think the chalice bearer misinterpreted my body language somehow. Or she wanted me to consume a lot of the Precious Blood so there wouldn't be much left over. Normally I just take a sip or even just let the Precious Blood hit my upper lip.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Suffice to say, if the cup is administered so forcefully that there is danger of spilling, the cup bearer is doing it wrong.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
Our practice is never to let go of the chalice completely, but I loosen my grip enough that the communicant controls the sip. I'm there to prevent a spill, and I suppose pull away if they were to try to down the whole thing, not that that's ever happened. It does get awkward when I get one of the few who refuse to touch the chalice, and I have to pour it down their throat (and not down their chest).
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Our practice is never to let go of the chalice completely, but I loosen my grip enough that the communicant controls the sip. I'm there to prevent a spill, and I suppose pull away if they were to try to down the whole thing, not that that's ever happened. It does get awkward when I get one of the few who refuse to touch the chalice, and I have to pour it down their throat (and not down their chest).
I'm more afraid of cracking their teeth with the rim of the cup when they don't guide it to their lips themselves.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Since I'm from a Methodist background that has intincted (or wee cuppied) my whole life, I've never quite gotten the hang of what I'm supposed to do with the cup when I visit Episcopal churches. I feel awkward about it, although I'm slowly getting the hang of it. Since I get to visit so few these days, I'm not progressing very fast.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Why would you want some left for ablutions? I'm happy to consume before I start purifying vessels, but the point of purifying is to leave no trace of the precious blood in the vessels. Less for me to do if the EMs (or the last communicant) can consume before the cups get to me.
Your guess is as good as mine. I can't really think of another reason than an obsessive mind being set in the idea that everybody is distributed the same amount. I have come across some extremely particular, shall we say, people involved in altar service.
Either that, or they are concerned about the accidents causing an accident if too much be consumed.
[ 13. November 2013, 21:32: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
These cup-bearers' anxieties seem to be an excellent reason why it is a better practice to give the cup to the communicant. They then take a sip and give it back. I seem to remember there was a discussion about this a few months ago.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Good thought, Enoch, as long as you know everyone and they know you are going to do that. I've had people hand me the chalice when I was expecting them to keep hold of it and it almost dropped. I'm always the guest and I try to watch what the others do but don't always catch on.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
Our practice is never to let go of the chalice completely, but I loosen my grip enough that the communicant controls the sip.
Yes, I was taught to use my arms' full extendo-capabilities, though in a seminary setting I will often relax about "delivering it into the hand." When communicants are standing, it's doubtless easier for us longshanks.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by crunt:
I was taught to merely 'wet my lips' with the wine in the chalice (also, it was the custom for the chalice bearer to keep hold of the cup). As an adult, it has come as something of a revelation to find that people actually drink TMPB!
We were taught to have a sip. Not a gulp, but enough to swallow.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Given that there needs to be Real Presence for Christ to be present in both bread and wine at the same time, I don't think memorialists would look too fondly on concomitance.
The BCP & XXXIX both exclude memorialism. I'd think a memorialist in the C of E would be placing himself outside the church at any rate.
There are quite a lot of memorialists in the CoE and until recently a memorialist bishop.
Disobedience to the church's formularies is certainly nothing new.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
What do you guys mean that they’re nothing alike or that you see little similarity? Wafers are flat and round. Tortillas and chapatis are flat and round. Wafers are made of wheat. Flour tortillas and chapatis are made of wheat. Tortillas and chapatis are baked on a flat stove, griddle or iron. Wafers are baked on a flat stove, griddle or iron. . . . I think it’s fair to say that in shape, preparation, ingredients and appearance they appear to be and are substantially similar.
Sure they're similar in shape and appearance. A coaster can be flat and round, too. Yes, they're similar in ingredients. As noted above, so is glue.
By that line of reasoning I would have to question whether pizza is food because it's flat and round like a coaster. I would have to question whether pasta and pancakes are food because they also share ingredients with glue.
quote:
When I say they're not similar, I mean specifically that wafers do not resemble real food. They have no flavor or aroma, the texture is more like styrofoam than bread, and they certainly are incapable of satisfying hunger. Nothing about them says "food" except that fact that they are indeed edible.
That's pretty close to the definition of food, isn't it?
I don't know what kind communion hosts you've had but the kind I've had are smooth and solid that, like M&Ms, melt in your mouth and not in your hands (I'm serious; I receive on the tongue and follow the old piously and overly devout practice of letting it dissolve on the tongue without chewing). Styrofoam is more like the puffed wheat I've had for breakfast cereal, or like plain rice cakes.
There's lots of stuff we eat and consider food that have little or no flavor or aroma on their own. Plain pasta, mushrooms, rice cakes, puffed wheat, Rice Krispies cereal, gelatin, etc .
Communion wafers don't satisfy physical hunger only because we eat just one small host at a time. It's like saying peanuts aren't food because eating a single peanut still leaves me hungry. If I only ate a single almond or a single saltine cracker for breakfast it wouldn't satisfy my hunger either and a single slice of white supermarket bread would also hardly satisfy me.
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Nick will likely be horrified to learn that they are locally (Ottawa Valley) consumed as real food. Sold in dépanneurs (corner stores) as little boxes of "hosties," they are consumed as snacks by office workers.
You can also buy them as snacks in Tijuana. A classmate once brought some bags to share at school. The pieces are in different colors, as if they've been dipped in food coloring.
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I'm willing to grant that maybe I've never encountered a "good" wafer, though they may be out there. And I'll grant that they might be considered "food" in some cultures. Mine is not one of those cultures.
Exactly.
[ 14. November 2013, 19:47: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Clotilde
Shipmate
# 17600
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by crunt:
I was taught to merely 'wet my lips' with the wine in the chalice (also, it was the custom for the chalice bearer to keep hold of the cup). As an adult, it has come as something of a revelation to find that people actually drink TMPB!
We were taught to have a sip. Not a gulp, but enough to swallow.
Yes, what Ken says.
I have noticed (but I shouldn't notice such things!) one or two people put the chalice to their lips but dont take any of the wione - the act is the gesture of touching lip to chalice.
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Curious Anglo Catholic ephemera and liturgy on eBay. Click here. Thanks.
[ 14. November 2013, 19:51: Message edited by: Clotilde ]
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A witness of female resistance
Posts: 159 | From: A man's world | Registered: Mar 2013
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Does anyone know what "unleavened bread" would have looked like at the time of Jesus? That might provide some guidance.
Surely not anything even vaguely resembling either a standard communion wafer or modern matzohs. But what then?
John
There's actually a decent article on food in ancient Israel with a good number of references that is worth reading:
Ancient Israelite cuisine
According to the article:
quote:
A variety of breads was produced. Probably most common were unleavened flat loaves called ugah or kikkar. Another type was a thin wafer, known as a rakik. A thicker loaf, known as hallah was made with the best quality flour, usually for ritual purposes.
So it seems that unleavened flat breads were most common and a thin wafer bread was known at the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It would quite probably been made out of barley, and so not wheaten anyway (John 6:9 anyone?). Bread made of wheat was for the wealthy in Roman-occupied territories. Kamut, emmer and spelt flour was also used in the area at that time. I do think that since wheat bread was unlikely to have been the bread used at the Last Supper, the CoE canons regarding it (and non-alcoholic Communion wine) should be changed.
According to the same article above, barley was the most important grain and bread was made mainly from it during most of the Biblical period but by the Second Temple period, during Jesus' time, it's importance declined and wheat became the main grain crop and widespread in use for bread.
I'm guessing that by “kamut” you mean “khorasan” grain? If so, Kamut, emmer and spelt are all species of wheat.
Emmer wheat was initially the the most common kind of wheat but it was hard to husk and was eventually replaced by durum wheat which was preferred for making fine flower. However, durum wheat was hard to grind and the flower required a lot of sifting so common bread was made mainly from barley until the Greek conquest when common or “bread” wheat became the principal grain in Israel and spread in use for making bread.
Its seems to me that by Jesus' time the bread they ate was at least as likely to be made from wheat if not a bit more likely.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Can a priest consecrate anointing oil in the Anglican Church?
Or is that strictly reserved for the Bishop?
And is that a matter of doctrine (Can't be changed) or discipline (can be changed)?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Can a priest consecrate anointing oil in the Anglican Church?
Or is that strictly reserved for the Bishop?
And is that a matter of doctrine (Can't be changed) or discipline (can be changed)?
From Canon B37 of the Church of England:
quote:
If any such person so desires, the priest may lay hands upon him and may anoint him with oil on the forehead with the sign of the Cross using a form of service authorized by Canon B 1 and using pure olive oil consecrated by the bishop of the diocese or otherwise by the priest himself in accordance with such form of service.
So yes, in the Church of England at least it is possible for a priest to consecrate oil for anointing.
That said, I have never come across a parish where that was done. Perhaps it might be in extremis, but I can't imagine the parish where it would be regular practice.
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Interesting: Canon B37 seems to exclude the use of oil consecrated by other than 'the Bishop of the Diocese', or the local priest. No suffragans then? Is it seen as a privilege related to jurisdiction - or an I reading this in an anachronistic way?
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
And the CoE guidelines for admitting new communicants by reception (rather than confirmation) stipulate that candidates must have been confirmed either episcopally or with episcopally consecrated chrism.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
Interesting: Canon B37 seems to exclude the use of oil consecrated by other than 'the Bishop of the Diocese', or the local priest. No suffragans then? Is it seen as a privilege related to jurisdiction - or an I reading this in an anachronistic way?
It seems to be a matter of jurisdiction--- in many dioceses, oils are blessed on Maundy Thursday for the year and is one of the symbols of diocesan unity. I think that it's one of these bene esse things.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
And the CoE guidelines for admitting new communicants by reception (rather than confirmation) stipulate that candidates must have been confirmed either episcopally or with episcopally consecrated chrism.
Is the CofE actually making a distinction between chrism and oil for anointing the sick? [Olaf gasps, and yet strangely admires them for it]
Without looking, I seem to recall that Catholic priests are allowed to do an emergency consecration of oil when they are anointing the sick, if need be, but most definitely not an emergency consecration of chrism.
I guess it depends on what type of anointing is happening.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
CofE oil sets tend to come with different letters on the lid for the different oils (I only know this from verging at baptisms and having to get the right oil out), so yes, I guess there is some distinguishing between the different oils.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
And the CoE guidelines for admitting new communicants by reception (rather than confirmation) stipulate that candidates must have been confirmed either episcopally or with episcopally consecrated chrism.
Though as I recall the purpose of this regulation is not really about the validity of the consecration of the oils but about the centrality of the bishop to the CoE understanding of confirmation. So a priest can confirm, but they need the episcopally-consecrated oil in order to get a suitable level of episcopality (!) into the rite.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've always known three sorts of oil blessed on Maundy Thursday - chrism, for the sick and for baptism candidates. Whether C of E clergy distinguish between them in use is another matter.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Without looking, I seem to recall that Catholic priests are allowed to do an emergency consecration of oil when they are anointing the sick, if need be, but most definitely not an emergency consecration of chrism.
I guess it depends on what type of anointing is happening.
Interesting numbering given British emergency services, but Canon 999 is your friend:
quote:
Canon 999 In addition to a bishop, the following can bless the oil to be used in the anointing of the sick:
1/ those equivalent to a diocesan bishop by law;
2/ any presbyter in a case of necessity, but only in the actual celebration of the sacrament.
[ETA] And Canon 880 for that matter
quote:
Can. 880 §1. The sacrament of confirmation is conferred by the anointing of chrism on the forehead, which is done by the imposition of the hand and through the words prescribed in the approved liturgical books.
§2. The chrism to be used in the sacrament of confirmation must be consecrated by a bishop even if a presbyter administers the sacrament.
[ 16. November 2013, 15:50: Message edited by: Hart ]
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
CofE oil sets tend to come with different letters on the lid for the different oils (I only know this from verging at baptisms and having to get the right oil out), so yes, I guess there is some distinguishing between the different oils.
Oil of Catechumens (OS, Oleum Sanctum) used in Baptism, the consecration of churches, in the blessing of Altars, in the ordination of priests
Holy Chrism (SC, Sanctum Chrisma) used in Confirmation, Baptism, in the consecration of a Bishop, the consecration of a various things such as churches, chalices, patens, and bells
Oil of the Sick (OI, Oleum Infirmorum), used in anointing of the sick
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
CofE oil sets tend to come with different letters on the lid for the different oils (I only know this from verging at baptisms and having to get the right oil out), so yes, I guess there is some distinguishing between the different oils.
Oil of Catechumens (OS, Oleum Sanctum) used in Baptism, the consecration of churches, in the blessing of Altars, in the ordination of priests
Holy Chrism (SC, Sanctum Chrisma) used in Confirmation, Baptism, in the consecration of a Bishop, the consecration of a various things such as churches, chalices, patens, and bells
Oil of the Sick (OI, Oleum Infirmorum), used in anointing of the sick
In my diocese there is likely to be no difference in the oils inside the oil stock. There is one service held each year in our cathederal for the blessing of the oil. Every parish takes it's oil along and it is all blessed together, so yes you could take different oils if you so wished, but most parishes just take one bottle.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
In my diocese there is likely to be no difference in the oils inside the oil stock. There is one service held each year in our cathederal for the blessing of the oil. Every parish takes it's oil along and it is all blessed together, so yes you could take different oils if you so wished, but most parishes just take one bottle.
This is utterly beyond my comprehension. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Even in my Anglican days, I had never heard of such a thing. Methinks that if one is going to have holy oils and follow the liturgical precept of having the bishop bless them on or near Maundy Thursday, one would use the oils as the prayers intend. Otherwise, why have them at all?
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
In my diocese there is likely to be no difference in the oils inside the oil stock. There is one service held each year in our cathederal for the blessing of the oil. Every parish takes it's oil along and it is all blessed together, so yes you could take different oils if you so wished, but most parishes just take one bottle.
This is utterly beyond my comprehension.
Even in my Anglican days, I had never heard of such a thing. Methinks that if one is going to have holy oils and follow the liturgical precept of having the bishop bless them on or near Maundy Thursday, one would use the oils as the prayers intend. Otherwise, why have them at all?
There are some parishes that take their set of oil stocks, to the Maundy Thursday service, so who knows what oil is in them. However many take one bottle of oil and then put it to use back in the parish, so actually I can’t say how they use it but it is only one bottle and not three.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
In my diocese there is likely to be no difference in the oils inside the oil stock. There is one service held each year in our cathederal for the blessing of the oil. Every parish takes it's oil along and it is all blessed together, so yes you could take different oils if you so wished, but most parishes just take one bottle.
This is utterly beyond my comprehension.
Even in my Anglican days, I had never heard of such a thing. Methinks that if one is going to have holy oils and follow the liturgical precept of having the bishop bless them on or near Maundy Thursday, one would use the oils as the prayers intend. Otherwise, why have them at all?
Protestant simplification. Why look it up when you can just make up your own thing? I prefer to be hopeful, though: we have started seeing the reintroduction of oil, and with time, we hopefully will figure out the nuances.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I could see someone rediscovering various prayerful uses of oil straight from the scriptures without seeing any need for the different uses to be differentiated by separate oils.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I could see someone rediscovering various prayerful uses of oil straight from the scriptures without seeing any need for the different uses to be differentiated by separate oils.
Exactly, and this is how it usually goes in the Protestant world. I know of a very evangelical, conservative church that takes the anointing with oil very seriously, based upon scriptural instructions. That said, they don't even have any bishops, per se, and I guarantee they have no specific rite for blessing the oil.
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
In my diocese there is likely to be no difference in the oils inside the oil stock. There is one service held each year in our cathederal for the blessing of the oil. Every parish takes it's oil along and it is all blessed together, so yes you could take different oils if you so wished, but most parishes just take one bottle.
This is utterly beyond my comprehension.
Even in my Anglican days, I had never heard of such a thing. Methinks that if one is going to have holy oils and follow the liturgical precept of having the bishop bless them on or near Maundy Thursday, one would use the oils as the prayers intend. Otherwise, why have them at all?
There are some parishes that take their set of oil stocks, to the Maundy Thursday service, so who knows what oil is in them. However many take one bottle of oil and then put it to use back in the parish, so actually I can’t say how they use it but it is only one bottle and not three.
As one time Deacon of the Oils (Chrism), I can assure you that in London, the oils are separate at the time of blessing. Whether the three oils could be distinguished by mass spectrometry, I couldn't say. Swapping stories with others, it seems typical for the CofE if not universal. I did hear of a cathedral trying to decant into the parishs' flasks/bottles immediately after the service. Things got very slippery, I'm told.
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Things got very slippery, I'm told.
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I do believe that this is my 1,000th post. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
quote:
There are some parishes that take their set of oil stocks, to the Maundy Thursday service, so who knows what oil is in them. However many take one bottle of oil and then put it to use back in the parish, so actually I can’t say how they use it but it is only one bottle and not three.
Is this some kind of metaphor for the Trinity?
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
quote:
There are some parishes that take their set of oil stocks, to the Maundy Thursday service, so who knows what oil is in them. However many take one bottle of oil and then put it to use back in the parish, so actually I can’t say how they use it but it is only one bottle and not three.
Is this some kind of metaphor for the Trinity?
no for some parishes there are three separate anoinrting oils - sick, baptisms and confirmation. Some parishes use just one for all, and some don't use it at all.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
quote:
There are some parishes that take their set of oil stocks, to the Maundy Thursday service, so who knows what oil is in them. However many take one bottle of oil and then put it to use back in the parish, so actually I can’t say how they use it but it is only one bottle and not three.
Is this some kind of metaphor for the Trinity?
no for some parishes there are three separate anoinrting oils - sick, baptisms and confirmation. Some parishes use just one for all, and some don't use it at all.
The variety of practice in the CofE makes me wonder whether the Queen's coronation used the wrong type of oil!
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
quote:
There are some parishes that take their set of oil stocks, to the Maundy Thursday service, so who knows what oil is in them. However many take one bottle of oil and then put it to use back in the parish, so actually I can’t say how they use it but it is only one bottle and not three.
Is this some kind of metaphor for the Trinity?
When I was in Melbourne years ago the tradition was BYO, and I had a beautiful rose oil (no animal cruelty) that lasted for years for chrismation. Most dioceses since have had awful stuff that makes babies smell like cricket bats, though one diocese made the babies smell like a cross between a cricket bat and a mandarin
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Give me grace for an ignorant question, but I have oil that I've had for over a year and that smells perfectly fine (i.e., not rancid). Would I dispose of it during Holy Week and replace it with what the bishop consecrates every year, whether it needs it or not? Or do we just get new oil consecrated when it looks like we're running low?
And for that matter, how does one dispose of consecrated oil?
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
One disposes of consecrated oils by burning them. It is customary to dispose of the old oils each year when the new oils are obtained. However, there is no abuse in continuing to use the old oils. If, however, they begin to fade during the following year, it may not be as easy or convenient to get them replenished.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Soak up the remainder with cotton balls and burn it. Providing it's not a cheap olive oil exposed to the air it shouldn't go rancid, although sometimes it reacts to cheap metals and turns a bit quickly, but I presume most cathedrals keep a sealed stash somewhere so that you can go back to it and replenish if needs be.
In the past I have added rose oil to chrism. Not sure if it is canonically correct, but it greatly helps to cover up the smell of a baby well fed before a service.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I have seenthe left over oil used to mix with ash, for ash wednesday services.
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
The variety of practice in the CofE makes me wonder whether the Queen's coronation used the wrong type of oil!
According to Westminster Abbey: quote:
The recipe for the oil is secret but it contains oils of orange flowers, roses, jasmin, cinnamon, musk, civet and ambergris. Under the authority of the Surgeon-Apothecary the oil for the 1953 coronation was made up at Savory and Moore Ltd by J.D.Jamieson, to a formula devised by Peter Squire. The consecration of the oil is arranged by the Dean of Westminster and performed by a bishop. In 1953 the Bishop of Gloucester, a former Canon of Westminster, performed the blessing.
Which rather puts paid to the legend that they eeked out the Papal chrism from previous coronations. Shame - I had thought that was true.
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