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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Miscellaneous questions of a liturgical nature
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But where do you put the Mozzarella?
In the f**kin' ziti.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I am talking of the Mozzetta, just to be clear, not the pellegrina.
Indeed: the pellegrina is common among a certain breed of Anglican (I have one, though I don't often wear it). The mozzetta I have never seen in an Anglican context: choir dress tends to mean surplice and scarf or cotta and stole (and perhaps cope with the latter).
I have been well aware of these things for many years without knowing their names. I have heard them described as tit-warmers, or more politely and prosaically as shoulder capes.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I think the GIRM used to require reservation should be in a separate chapel, but I note in para 315 at present it is also possible on a separate place within the sanctuary.
The previous edition of the GIRM did not require reservation of the Blessed Sacrament in a separate chapel. I once had to check on that myself.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
It's not unusual to see 4-part hymns for the congregation in hymnals* but is there such a thing as a 4-part congregational setting of the Eucharist? I mean, one meant to be sung in harmony by the people rather than (just) by the choir?
*Well, actually, it is unusual among Catholic hymnals in the U.S. but that's another thread.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
It's not unusual to see 4-part hymns for the congregation in hymnals* but is there such a thing as a 4-part congregational setting of the Eucharist? I mean, one meant to be sung in harmony by the people rather than (just) by the choir?
I'll have to dig through materials when I get home, but I can definitely say they are rare.
There are settings that have four part sections, but are not totally four part. I've only ever encountered them in choral use, though. There is a very nice setting of theGloria from A New Mass for.Congregations. Also, some Proulx settings feature parts as well. The Schubert/Proulx Deutsche Messe setting is an example that has parts most if not the whole way through.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
This is more of a miscellaneous comment than a question, but I want to rave about natural light. Last week the power in the church went out a quarter of the way through the service and we had to carry on with natural light and a Capella singing. It was a cloudy day, and the windows have that dingy plastic sheeting on the outside that churches put up in the 80's, but there was enough light to see the hymn sheets, and the candles cast a very mysterious light in the chancel. Why can't we have that every week?
We could pay some sod a farthing a day to pump the organ bellows, and it would be just like olden times. And just so we know it's not just me, according to St Dearmer,
quote:
People are more drawn to and impressed by a church that is not filled with flaring light, though often they do not know the reason; and the present craving for a fussy crowd of candles on the altar is in great measure caused by the want of a reasonable proportion of light and shade in the rest of the church.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
It's not unusual to see 4-part hymns for the congregation in hymnals* but is there such a thing as a 4-part congregational setting of the Eucharist? I mean, one meant to be sung in harmony by the people rather than (just) by the choir?
I'll have to dig through materials when I get home, but I can definitely say they are rare.
There are settings that have four part sections, but are not totally four part. I've only ever encountered them in choral use, though. There is a very nice setting of theGloria from A New Mass for.Congregations. Also, some Proulx settings feature parts as well. The Schubert/Proulx Deutsche Messe setting is an example that has parts most if not the whole way through.
All I have found so far with a congregational 4 part harmony are paraphrases, whether in English or not. (The "Peruvian" Gloria, for instance...I'm sure you are familiar with its "Alleluia Amen" portions.
On second thought, another proverbial tree to bark up would be that of Taize, or perhaps Iona. If I recall correctly, the works from those places tend to be designed for all gathered to sing in parts.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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fabula rasa
Shipmate
# 11436
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Posted
I'm wondering whether any Ecclesianticists (is that what you are???) know of any traditions or liturgical resources for burying the Alleluia. (And some of you may be horrified that this is being asked post-Quinquagesima, so I apologise to those of delicate sensibility!)
Posts: 465 | From: scepter'd isle | Registered: May 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fabula rasa:
I'm wondering whether any Ecclesianticists (is that what you are???) know of any traditions or liturgical resources for burying the Alleluia.
It keeps the elite pure by setting a trap for any low-church oiks who might turn up and accidentally say it because no-one ever told them the silly made-up rule. Reason enough.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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fabula rasa
Shipmate
# 11436
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Posted
ken, I thought that was the underlying goal of all liturgy. Have I missed something?
Posts: 465 | From: scepter'd isle | Registered: May 2006
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Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
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Posted
We have an Alleluia banner which the children hold during the Notices and then slowly take out of the church during the third verse of our final hymn, which is 'Alleuia, Song of Sweetness' (AMR 82; not in New English Hymnal).
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
We're singing lots of Alleluias at Mass tonight, but no burying. One can have a goodbye without any burying (it's quite the fashion in Rome these days).
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
It's not unusual to see 4-part hymns for the congregation in hymnals* but is there such a thing as a 4-part congregational setting of the Eucharist? I mean, one meant to be sung in harmony by the people rather than (just) by the choir?
I'll have to dig through materials when I get home, but I can definitely say they are rare.
There are settings that have four part sections, but are not totally four part. I've only ever encountered them in choral use, though. There is a very nice setting of theGloria from A New Mass for.Congregations. Also, some Proulx settings feature parts as well. The Schubert/Proulx Deutsche Messe setting is an example that has parts most if not the whole way through.
All I have found so far with a congregational 4 part harmony are paraphrases, whether in English or not. (The "Peruvian" Gloria, for instance...I'm sure you are familiar with its "Alleluia Amen" portions.
On second thought, another proverbial tree to bark up would be that of Taize, or perhaps Iona. If I recall correctly, the works from those places tend to be designed for all gathered to sing in parts.
I am not sure either would do the full text for the eucharist but Iona do, do the Gloria (page 13) and I suspect Church hymnary 4 have other responses in four part harmony (Rejoice and Sing does so I think they would with the number of liturgical texts John Bell has set to music).
By the way whi do you think introduced the Peruvian Gloria outside Peru?
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
My memory tells me that Gustav Holst, when organist of Thaxted (Essex),taught the congregation to sing Byrd's Three Part Mass.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
The rubrics in Common Worship say that readers can act as 'liturgical deacons', i.e. doing all the deacon's bits of the eucharist. I can't remember seeing this happen before 2000. Was this an existing practice that I'd never encountered in ASB days or is it a CW innovation?
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
The rubrics in Common Worship say that readers can act as 'liturgical deacons', i.e. doing all the deacon's bits of the eucharist. I can't remember seeing this happen before 2000. Was this an existing practice that I'd never encountered in ASB days or is it a CW innovation?
This is very common and, I think, rather odd. If they're going to go through the training to be a reader and then do a deacon's liturgical role, why not be ordained as a deacon?
I'm an ordinand, and I'm also frequently asked to do a deacon's role. I wish I weren't.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, I've seen ordinands/ potential ordinands and people of similar standing do deacon back in the 90s. In fact, I think I may have done it myself once- I certainly used to do subdeacon from time to time.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Display of horrible ignorance alert
I appreciate that the position may well be different in Wales, but what actually is there that a deacon can do in England which a Reader can't, part from put Rev in front of their name?
I seem to remember that in theory they can marry people but only civilly and not ecclesiastically?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Display of horrible ignorance alert
I appreciate that the position may well be different in Wales, but what actually is there that a deacon can do in England which a Reader can't, part from put Rev in front of their name?
They can baptise and can do all of the wedding service apart from the blessing (although I think that's a bit theoretical). They can always do funerals (while some readers can't). And do the really obvious things that I've forgotten about.
I asked the question as I suspect we have an odd situation that's been drifted into by accident, but I'd like to understand the history first. (There is a case for making readers into deacons, but the way to do that is to ordain them, not to change rubrics until we can't tell the difference)
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
In this part of the world (UK) readers are not allowed to do baptisms other than the emergency ones that any lay person could do. Readers and deacons are not allowed to do weddings either. That is a priestly function although I think that has more to do with the legality of being a registrar than anything ontological. As a deacon I haven't been on that training course yet and hope to be enlightened before my first wedding in August!
[ 13. February 2013, 15:44: Message edited by: Poppy ]
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Although it is not now encouraged, a deacon is legally permitted to conduct a wedding in the C of E (and I'm pretty sure in Wales as well), and is allowed to pronounce any blessing associated with it. The (secular) legal requirement is for a Clerk in Holy Orders, rather than for a priest, to conduct ceremony and registration.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
The rubrics in Common Worship say that readers can act as 'liturgical deacons', i.e. doing all the deacon's bits of the eucharist. I can't remember seeing this happen before 2000. Was this an existing practice that I'd never encountered in ASB days or is it a CW innovation?
New I think - but then I never heard of liturgical deacons or "deacons" until I read about them on this website. I'd been to some high-churchmanship spalces that has two or three robed ministers at the table, but I'd never heard anyone call them "deacons". So if I had come across a lay person doing it I might well have assumed they were ordained.
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
I asked the question as I suspect we have an odd situation that's been drifted into by accident...
I'm pretty sure that's true. Liturgical deacons in the Church of England, in those parishes that have such things are almost never actually ordained deacons unless the place is lucky enough to have a training curate in their first year. It is in fact, if not in theory, a largely lay role.
I suspect that it sometimes happens that a parish gets an incumbent who thinks every main worship service should be Holy Communion, and also that the minister who celebrates at Holy Communion should be the minister who preaches at Holy Communion. Which means no lay preaching, and no lay-led services, so no real job for a Reader. So if there is a licensed Reader in the parish, and the incumbent gets on OK with them, they might want to give them some other liturgical role to make up for it, and "deaconing" fits the bill.
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
There is a case for making readers into deacons, but the way to do that is to ordain them, not to change rubrics until we can't tell the difference)
There were no Church of England rubrics about "liturgical deacons" at all before this century. Its not a practice known to the Prayerbook! That paragraph in the notes to Common Worship was the first official recognition of the practice since the Reformation. We had a thread about liturgical deacons before but it seems to have been deleted somehow & doesn't show up in Google. If you want to find out about them you need to read the GIRM not the BCP!
And most CofE parishes don't have them anyway - my guess would be about a third do (or would if they could), though obviously I haven't counted. Most parishes - and almost all evangelical and charismatic ones - will have lay people leading non-eucharistic liturgy, and many will have lay people preaching, but I think only the more markedly Anglo-Catholic ones will talk about them as "deacons" or give them specific liturgical roles at Communion.
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
If they're going to go through the training to be a reader and then do a deacon's liturgical role, why not be ordained as a deacon?
If we'd wanted to be ordained we''d have tried to get ourselves ordained, not become Readers!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
In the RCC there is no such thing as a layman acting as a deacon. A deacon may be transitional (he will soon be ordained as a priest), or permamant (is probably married and has a day job), but either way he is an ordained cleric with seminary-level training.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
If they're going to go through the training to be a reader and then do a deacon's liturgical role, why not be ordained as a deacon?
If we'd wanted to be ordained we''d have tried to get ourselves ordained, not become Readers!
My point precisely. You were chosen and appointed and licensed as a reader. If you wanted and were called to do a deacon's job, presumably you would have tried to become a deacon, rather than a reader.
In fact, I rather think it diminishes the reader's distinctive role to give them functions appointed to an ordained minister.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
In the RCC there is no such thing as a layman acting as a deacon. A deacon may be transitional (he will soon be ordained as a priest), or permamant (is probably married and has a day job), but either way he is an ordained cleric with seminary-level training.
The one exception to your first sentence I can think of is reading the intentions of the Prayers of the Faithful at Mass. This is the deacon's job, but unlike everything else a deacon does, when there is no deacon it's done by a laic rather than by a priest.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Whatever the theory is, and although this analysis will make all the experts squeal, if one evaluates the underlying truth by what actually happens, it looks as though:-
A deacon is an apprentice priest, who is ordained, commissioned to serve, but until they've done their apprenticeship can't actually do any of the things that are normally exclusive to being ordained - i.e. consecrate, absolve/shrive, bless, anoint. Until 2001 they were disqualified from being MPs.
A reader is an ordinary person who is authorised to do some or all the things that are not sacerdotal, but which most people, most of the time are not supposed to do, lead public non-eucharistic services, preach, even take funerals provided they do not include a requiem. A reader has always been able to be an MP unless excluded for as different reason - e.g. holding an office of profit under the Crown.
But nobody is allowed to say this.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
"nobody is allowed to say this"?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
People have been saying it all over the place. What's controversial about it?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
"nobody is allowed to say this"?
People have been saying it all over the place. What's controversial about it?
Round here, people go on and on about the significance of the diaconate. We used to have a bishop who complained that there is no permanent one.
If you ask, 'what's the point of having Revs who can't do any of the things we expect them to do?' people glare at you as though you had suggested the emperor has no clothes.
Perhaps things are different in London.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
Thanks everyone.
The thread that Ken linked to can be found via the Google cache. this link might work, but I found it by googling for the URL ken gave and looking for the cached page from there. It's a very thorough thread on the role of the deacon in the eucharist, and the history of the role (but not who does it).
I did a bit more digging; it seems that there was a definite craze for increasing the liturgical role of deacons in the CofE between 1987 and 1992, when we had rather a lot of perpetual deacons and had to find jobs for them. Unfortunately a few good ideas came out of this process, which people have tried to keep going, despite the fact that there are now negligible numbers of perpetual deacons.
But I've yet to track down the origin of the specific idea that being a liturgical deacon is an important part of a reader's ministry (apart from the fact that it happened in the late '90s). I suspect it might have been an accident, but I'm still not sure.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
But I've yet to track down the origin of the specific idea that being a liturgical deacon is an important part of a reader's ministry (apart from the fact that it happened in the late '90s). I suspect it might have been an accident, but I'm still not sure.
I don't think it is that critical. It's that as hardly anywhere has a deacon for more than the occasional 12 month block, if your liturgical theology has roles you think they ought to do, somebody else has to be able to do them. If you have a reader, they are the obvious choice unless it needs someone who can "consecrate, absolve/shrive, bless, anoint"
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
But I've yet to track down the origin of the specific idea that being a liturgical deacon is an important part of a reader's ministry (apart from the fact that it happened in the late '90s). I suspect it might have been an accident, but I'm still not sure.
I don't think it is that critical. It's that as hardly anywhere has a deacon for more than the occasional 12 month block, if your liturgical theology has roles you think they ought to do, somebody else has to be able to do them. If you have a reader, they are the obvious choice unless it needs someone who can "consecrate, absolve/shrive, bless, anoint"
The principal liturgical role of the deacon is proclaiming the Gospel at the Eucharist. If there is no ordained deacon present, then that can/should be read by the ordained priest who undoubtedly is present.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I don't think things are as recent as many think.
Back in 1990, I was asked to read the gospel, prepare the table and elevate the chalice. I'd never seen a lay person sing the gospel or elevate before and i felt very uncomfortable doing it.
As for the liturgical role of deacons, again there is nothing new here. My 'home parish' in the 1960s used to have two curates - so we had a deacon two years out of every three - they always read the gospel.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
I recall seeing, in 1974--78, laymen officiating as deacons more or less every Sunday at the High Mass in what was then my parish church here. The Vicar claimed to have episcopal permission to celebrate with two "subdeacons". The churchwardens undertook the role. Apart from wearing a stole the right-hand one (we are all looking east) did everything the old books say a deacon at High Mass does.
More bizarrely, in the same church, during an interregnum, the deacon [by then we'd acquired a real one] sang the sursum corda and preface when we had a non-singing celebrant. As we were all facing east very few noticed.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Crucifer
Shipmate
# 523
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Posted
We are about 6 months into an interregnum (after a 35 year incumbency) and the interim priest has instituted a few changes to the liturgy, leading me to ask a couple of miscellaneous questions of the denizens of this august board.
1) After the gospel has been sung by the deacon (or assistant priest), the subdeacon (or layreader) carries the gospel book back into the sanctuary and hands it to the celebrant who then opens it and holds it while the thurifer censes it with three doubles. (Note - This does not appear to be a censing of the celebrant, which is the traditional norm at a high mass). This is, he explained, to symbolise that the gospel has no ending. I have never heard of, or seen, this practise before. Is this something with which anyone here is familiar, and if so, where does this custom originate? In any event, wouldn't it make more sense for the person singing the gospel to do the 'post-gospel' censing, similar to the deacon censing the celebrant?
2) Beginning with Ash Wednesday, the sanctus bells have been retired and the crotalus has been put into use. (Previously the bells were retired after the Gloria in Excelsis on Maundy Thursday). Again, from where is this practise derived?
I realise that there is no one standard ceremonial within Anglo-Catholicism (or any branch of Chrisianity) so my questions are more out of curiosity than as an implied criticism...
Thanks for any clarification or explanations!
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Crucifer
Posts: 232 | From: Diocese of Rupert's Land, Canada | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crucifer:
We are about 6 months into an interregnum (after a 35 year incumbency) and the interim priest has instituted a few changes to the liturgy, leading me to ask a couple of miscellaneous questions of the denizens of this august board.
1) After the gospel has been sung by the deacon (or assistant priest), the subdeacon (or layreader) carries the gospel book back into the sanctuary and hands it to the celebrant who then opens it and holds it while the thurifer censes it with three doubles. (Note - This does not appear to be a censing of the celebrant, which is the traditional norm at a high mass). This is, he explained, to symbolise that the gospel has no ending. I have never heard of, or seen, this practise before. Is this something with which anyone here is familiar, and if so, where does this custom originate? In any event, wouldn't it make more sense for the person singing the gospel to do the 'post-gospel' censing, similar to the deacon censing the celebrant?
2) Beginning with Ash Wednesday, the sanctus bells have been retired and the crotalus has been put into use. (Previously the bells were retired after the Gloria in Excelsis on Maundy Thursday). Again, from where is this practise derived?
I realise that there is no one standard ceremonial within Anglo-Catholicism (or any branch of Chrisianity) so my questions are more out of curiosity than as an implied criticism...
Thanks for any clarification or explanations!
Never heard of the "Gospel has no ending" thing. Is that a point that needs to be made? Normally the subdeacon takes the Gospel book directly to the celebrant and points out the beginning of the Gospel of the day for the celebrant to kiss. Then the subdeacon gives the book to the MC.
The crotalus business happens in the Triduum, methinks. I believe we use it exactly once, on Good Friday...at the point where a bell would normally be rung to indicate that the communicants may come forward (right after Domine non sum dignus).
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
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Originally posted by Basilica:
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Originally posted by Enoch:
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Originally posted by *Leon*:
But I've yet to track down the origin of the specific idea that being a liturgical deacon is an important part of a reader's ministry (apart from the fact that it happened in the late '90s). I suspect it might have been an accident, but I'm still not sure.
I don't think it is that critical. It's that as hardly anywhere has a deacon for more than the occasional 12 month block, if your liturgical theology has roles you think they ought to do, somebody else has to be able to do them. If you have a reader, they are the obvious choice unless it needs someone who can "consecrate, absolve/shrive, bless, anoint"
The principal liturgical role of the deacon is proclaiming the Gospel at the Eucharist. If there is no ordained deacon present, then that can/should be read by the ordained priest who undoubtedly is present.
That's the RC position as I understand it, but in Anglican circles a lay person can read the Gosepl can't they? I have been to more than one Anglican Church where all sit - except the reader - for all Bible readings including the Gospel.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crucifer:
1) After the gospel has been sung by the deacon (or assistant priest), the subdeacon (or layreader) carries the gospel book back into the sanctuary and hands it to the celebrant who then opens it and holds it while the thurifer censes it with three doubles.....2) Beginning with Ash Wednesday, the sanctus bells have been retired and the crotalus has been put into use.
Somewhat old fashioed.
Since 1967, the deacon kisses the Book of the Gospels at the end of the Gospel.
Three doubles is an anglican eccentricity. Nowhere does it appear in the GIRM.
The bells are rung throughout Lent until the start of the Maundy Thursday Gloria and then silenced the the same part of the Easter Vigil.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
But I've yet to track down the origin of the specific idea that being a liturgical deacon is an important part of a reader's ministry (apart from the fact that it happened in the late '90s). I suspect it might have been an accident, but I'm still not sure.
I don't think it is that critical. It's that as hardly anywhere has a deacon for more than the occasional 12 month block, if your liturgical theology has roles you think they ought to do, somebody else has to be able to do them. If you have a reader, they are the obvious choice unless it needs someone who can "consecrate, absolve/shrive, bless, anoint"
The principal liturgical role of the deacon is proclaiming the Gospel at the Eucharist. If there is no ordained deacon present, then that can/should be read by the ordained priest who undoubtedly is present.
That's the RC position as I understand it, but in Anglican circles a lay person can read the Gosepl can't they? I have been to more than one Anglican Church where all sit - except the reader - for all Bible readings including the Gospel.
I have been at many anglican churches where the Gospel has been read by a lay person. However I have never been at an anglican Eucharist where they congregation sat for the Gospel, morning prayer and other services yes but Eucharist no.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
Last place I was at where this happened was at St. John's Harborne, Birmingham, where the several hundred present sat during the second Bible reading at the Communion service - which was the Gospel of the day.
I think standing is a (usually followed) option for C of E folk isn't it, rather than a rule. There is that rubric about the standing sitting kneeling rules being guides which local custom may determine otherwise.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
I think I can answer this. There was some discussion about it a year or two ago. A lay person can read the gospel in England, and in many churches regularly does. In Wales they aren't supposed to.
Irrespective of who reads it, as far as I've experienced things, it is generally taken for granted the congregation stands for the gospel.
A New Testament reading at Morning or Evening Prayer that happens to come from a gospel doesn't count as a 'gospel' in the same way, and people do not stand.
My impression is that if the reading of the Gospel at a Communion Service includes a procession, the reader is less likely to be a lay person.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Second post
Sorry, I forgot to ask. What's a crotalus? When I looked it up, it seems to be a rattlesnake.
I've learnt from the Ship about the legend of the crab, but where do rattlesnakes fit into Anglo-Catholicism? I thought they belonged in the wilder religious underbelly of the Appalachians.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Second post
Sorry, I forgot to ask. What's a crotalus? When I looked it up, it seems to be a rattlesnake.
It's a device, usually wooden, that makes a loud clacking noise. Ours has a handle with an attached wooden bit mounted on a little fulcrum. With a flip of the wrist, the acolyte makes the moving bit clack back and forth (just once).
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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otyetsfoma
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# 12898
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Posted
The rubric in the BCP 1662 regarding the
gospel in the Holy Commuion service says " Then shall he read the Gospel(the people all standing up)".It sweems to be a principle of extreme protestants that all the books of the bible are of equal value and importance therefore they show no special honour to the gospel. Our Lord seems not to have shared this misconception - nor do the Jews who give special honour to the Torah.
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
It's a device, usually wooden, that makes a loud clacking noise. Ours has a handle with an attached wooden bit mounted on a little fulcrum. With a flip of the wrist, the acolyte makes the moving bit clack back and forth (just once).
It sounds like the sort of thing people twirl at football matches. Here's a selection of pictures. Not quite as liturgically exotic as snake-handling, but very nearly. Are they widespread in Rupert's Land or Chicago?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
It's a device, usually wooden, that makes a loud clacking noise. Ours has a handle with an attached wooden bit mounted on a little fulcrum. With a flip of the wrist, the acolyte makes the moving bit clack back and forth (just once).
It sounds like the sort of thing people twirl at football matches. Here's a selection of pictures. Not quite as liturgically exotic as snake-handling, but very nearly. Are they widespread in Rupert's Land or Chicago?
Ours looks more like this one and makes a clack rather than a rattle sound.
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Crucifer
Shipmate
# 523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Never heard of the "Gospel has no ending" thing. Is that a point that needs to be made? Normally the subdeacon takes the Gospel book directly to the celebrant and points out the beginning of the Gospel of the day for the celebrant to kiss. Then the subdeacon gives the book to the MC.
The crotalus business happens in the Triduum, methinks. I believe we use it exactly once, on Good Friday...at the point where a bell would normally be rung to indicate that the communicants may come forward (right after Domine non sum dignus).
Thanks for the replies so far.
Oblatus, I agree with you re: the necessity of making the point that the Gospel has no end. It's already implied by the fact that there is no "Here ends the Gospel" as is the case for the OT and Epistle lessons.
In any case, if the censing is to be done after the singing of the Gospel, it would make more sense to me if the one who sings the Gospel (and censes it before commencing to sing it) were to cense it after the singing of it and cense it in situ (i.e. in the nave, where it is sung, Anglican style), rather than first taking it back to the high altar.
It would seem to me, upon further reflection, that censing the Gospel AFTER it is sung, actually would have the effect of book-ending it(censing before and after) and therefore, implying an end...
Re: Crotali. Ours looks a lot like yours, Oblatus. Ours gets used at two liturgies - from before Sanctus at the Mass of the Institution on Maundy Thursday through the remainder of that mass and again on Good Friday at the Mass of the Pre-sanctified (at Domine non sum dignus).
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Crucifer
Posts: 232 | From: Diocese of Rupert's Land, Canada | Registered: Jun 2001
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Crucifer
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# 523
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Posted
I forgot to reply to your question, Enoch. I am nearly certain that we have the only crotalus in the Diocese of Rupert's Land. (I am pretty sure we have the only sanctus bells as well).
Rupert's Land is pretty much on the lower side of middle of the road - either more-or-less broad church or evangelical. So far as I know, we are the only Anglo-Catholic parish between southern Ontario and Edmonton, Alberta. (Calgary's Anglo-Catholic parish went over to the Ordinariate a while ago).
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Crucifer
Posts: 232 | From: Diocese of Rupert's Land, Canada | Registered: Jun 2001
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
A quick question, I would be grateful for help.
What replaces 'Al.e.u.a' in the traditional language English rite? In modern circles we have 'praise to you O Christ King for Eternal glory' or similar. What used to be used.
And, more particularly what is the pre Gospel sentence used at a Requiem in Lent in the traditional language Anglo Catholic rite? (Am I right in thinking I am talking about the Tract, my memory may have failed me on that one).
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Bos Loquax
Shipmate
# 16602
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
What replaces 'Al.e.u.a' in the traditional language English rite? In modern circles we have 'praise to you O Christ King for Eternal glory' or similar. What used to be used.
I don't authoritatively know the answer, but I imagine the answer, at least in large part, to be some version of that--in Latin, "Laus tibi, Domine, Rex aeternae gloriae."
For instance, I have a book that has "To thee, O Lord, all honour be, King of endless majesty," and I find the more literal "Praise be to Thee, O Lord, King of everlasting glory" in various sources online (including old English-language prayer books now available through Google Books).
Posts: 58 | From: California | Registered: Aug 2011
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Since 1967, the deacon kisses the Book of the Gospels at the end of the Gospel.
Except when the bishop is celebrating Mass, in which case the deacon takes the book to the bishop for him to kiss and bless the people with.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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