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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fuck you black dog
L'organist
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# 17338

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Kelly - hope the dog goes back into the kennel soon.

Evensong: Depression isn't either logical or reasonable so trying to apply either logic or reason doesn't help - however kindly-meant.

Sometimes keeping out of the way, not bearing a grudge, gritting your teeth against a retort and an endless supply of kleenex is the best we can offer.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:


Evensong: Depression isn't either logical or reasonable so trying to apply either logic or reason doesn't help - however kindly-meant.

Suck it up Princess. Works for me.

( A long jog along the river to loud dance music helps too )

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a theological scrapbook

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mdijon
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Cognitive behavioural therapy works. It can be characterized as learning to apply logic to one's depressive thoughts.

So logic can be an appropriate tool to fight depression, when applied by a caring and skilled counsellor.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Doublethink.
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It works for about 70% of people.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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sophs

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The thing about CBT and all the other forms of therapy is that you have to be ready for them to help. I've been severely depressed for over a decade, and those who know me from ages ago on the ship will know that I never expected to tame the black dog.

And I will never really beat him, but I'm ok with that. I'm now able to function in everyday life, don't wake up cursing that I'm alive and am in a happy, functional relationship and even considering children. And I'm finally ready to talk through my feelings and formalise the bastardised version of CBT I've been using to survive all these years.

It doesn't mean I'll miraculously get rid of the constant undercurrent of low self esteem and cyclical thoughts that abuse me, but it means they will be quieter, and I'm ok with that too. Somehow reading my prognosis, knowing I'll be on meds and therapy for the rest of my life helped, and I'm now in the care of the "Severe and Enduring Mental Health Team". I've lost all the jobs I've tried due to the crazy, but have a wonderful housemate and fiance who support me, care for me and encourage me to make things to sell on the internet.

Oh, and for those who want a laugh, my diagnosis went from Borderline Personality Disorder under the care of the primary mental health team to Mild Depression under the care of the severe and enduring mh team. But all the mh professionals I deal with think the Mild bit of the depression is rubbish.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It works for about 70% of people.

I know it doesn't work for me.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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In my experience some people struggle with the thought challenging, it is as if they either castigate themselves for having thought "wrong" in the first place - or they experience the discussion of their thought processes as very critical and threatening, I think especially if they have had very critical people in their lives at some point.

Again not true of everyone who does not benefit from CBT, but certainly true for some.

[ETA To clarify, this is not in anyway the client's fault - different approaches suit different people.]

[ 11. April 2013, 19:29: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by sophs:

Oh, and for those who want a laugh, my diagnosis went from Borderline Personality Disorder under the care of the primary mental health team to Mild Depression under the care of the severe and enduring mh team. But all the mh professionals I deal with think the Mild bit of the depression is rubbish.

Sophs, you are a true warrior.
[Overused] Much respect.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Personality disorder diagnoses are sometimes a diagnostic way of blaming the patient for not getting better.

About CBT, it is the form of therapy with the most research because it is more systemized and best described. It is harder to study other therapeutic models, particularly the interpersonal models. Also CBT + medication studies have been funded well, sometimes by the drug companies, so they can make the happy conclusion that you need both. I believe the research is difficult to make firm conclusions about.

And about diagnosis, there are diagnoses applied because of an office visit (that 10 minute appt with a doc), those assigned because it is what is being worked on in therapy, those assigned so the patient doesn't have to be treated, and those that have been really well established.

I heard the new DSM-V described as "an expanded list of 5 digit billing codes". That a label has been applied to you may not mean more than that was needed to send in a bill.

(I worked in provincial health as a policy advisor and program developer in mental health for a goodly period in the past.)

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Doublethink.
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I would have said its unlikely to be the billing issue in the NHS - but now the commissioning system has changed, I am not so sure [Frown]

[ 11. April 2013, 21:27: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by sophs:

Oh, and for those who want a laugh, my diagnosis went from Borderline Personality Disorder under the care of the primary mental health team to Mild Depression under the care of the severe and enduring mh team. But all the mh professionals I deal with think the Mild bit of the depression is rubbish.

Sophs, you are a true warrior.
[Overused] Much respect.

Knowing some of your story, sophs, WAY TO GO, GIRL! Keep slugging that black dog in its muzzle.
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Crazy Cat Lady
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I have been defined as BPD too after a shitty childhood. I also have schizoaffective disorder (means I have both Bipolar and Schizophrenia)

So as far as insanity goes, I am cooking on gas!

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'They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me!"

Nathaniel Lee

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sophs

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quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by sophs:

Oh, and for those who want a laugh, my diagnosis went from Borderline Personality Disorder under the care of the primary mental health team to Mild Depression under the care of the severe and enduring mh team. But all the mh professionals I deal with think the Mild bit of the depression is rubbish.

Sophs, you are a true warrior.
[Overused] Much respect.

Knowing some of your story, sophs, WAY TO GO, GIRL! Keep slugging that black dog in its muzzle.
Thanks guys [Hot and Hormonal] coming from you two that means a LOT. It's kinda weird being physically screwed but mentally ok. If it comes down to a choice of good mental health/bad physical health I'd take that any time. It's much easier to deal with, even walking with a stick or using a chair. Invisible disabilities suck.
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L'organist
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1. CBT may be of value for some but can also make a bad situation worse.

2. Best mis-diagnosis I've ever heard? "Depression" became "menopausal paranoia" became "personality disorder" became "attention seeking/menopausal hysteria". Oh, and an inabiity to face up to persistent alcohol misuse.

Through pure luck and getting in the wrong queue at a clinic the hapless person concerned ended up being given an ECG.

What had obviously been a long-standing and acute heart condition was diagnosed, the patient kept in there and then until appropriate treatment could be given and an ongoing plan formulated

So, get a thorough physical check - all this person needed was for a medic to apply a stethoscope for 2 minutes... and it took 15 years.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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TomOfTarsus
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For all I know, the soul who composed this touching story is on the Ship, or even on this thread (note, there is some strong language).

Other than that, I don't know what I could contribute to this thread, but prayers. I can't say for sure if I've ever been clinically depressed, so no sense talking about myself. (Though I can understand the character in that linked post... hmmm.)

Blessings to you all,

Tom

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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.

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Erroneous Monk
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That blogpost is the most accurate description I've read of how my depressive episodes feel

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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TomOfTarsus
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Erroneous Monk:

Then I hope you keep finding your own "dried up kernels of corn" under your refrigerator!

I do have to wonder about myself. "Surviving" sounds a lot like my life, but I can still laugh, still find joy, and still have hope. But last winter was pretty rough.

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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.

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Jengie jon

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Having had personally experienced two very different forms of depression and being aware that there are others, can I just sound a warning about that one.

It is an accurate representation of what some people experience in depression.

It does not mean that is what all people experience during depression.

If anyone tries to make all people who say they have depression fit that picture, then the cartoon misleads as much as it informs.

Jengie

[ 10. May 2013, 14:26: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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Evensong
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quote:
The beginning of my depression had been nothing but feelings, so the emotional deadening that followed was a welcome relief. I had always wanted to not give a fuck about anything. I viewed feelings as a weakness — annoying obstacles on my quest for total power over myself. And I finally didn't have to feel them anymore.


Sounds like s/he starts with emotional re-pression that leads leads to emotional de-pression.

Is that part of the normal definition? Is there an etymological as well as psychological link?

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a theological scrapbook

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
The beginning of my depression had been nothing but feelings, so the emotional deadening that followed was a welcome relief. I had always wanted to not give a fuck about anything. I viewed feelings as a weakness — annoying obstacles on my quest for total power over myself. And I finally didn't have to feel them anymore.


Sounds like s/he starts with emotional re-pression that leads leads to emotional de-pression.

Is that part of the normal definition? Is there an etymological as well as psychological link?

You say that as if there was some kind of deliberate attempt to repress feelings. I don't know that's what the blog says.

But there can be an element of connection, yes, between keeping feeling inside and depression.

A couple of years ago when I was in a situation that was causing me considerable stress, I deliberately allowed myself to react to it a lot. To be angry. Including right here in Hell.

Because anger is outwardly directed. And that was a lot better than internalising my distress, which I recognised from previous experience could contribute to a depressive episode.

There were lots of things in the situation that I could reasonably blame other people for. So I did. At times quite noisily. Because the alternative was to think it was all my fault, that I was incompetent, that I should be able to cope with the shitty situation and I was failure if I didn't cope with it stoically. And that lay depression would have lain.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There were lots of things in the situation that I could reasonably blame other people for. So I did. At times quite noisily. Because the alternative was to think it was all my fault, that I was incompetent, that I should be able to cope with the shitty situation and I was failure if I didn't cope with it stoically. And that lay depression would have lain.

Suddenly the constant complaining by another person I know makes all the sense.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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quetzalcoatl
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Just echoing what orfeo said about anger. The times I have been depressed have been helped a lot by being angry. It's as if the de-pressed stuff is helped by being ex-pressed. Sounds rather corny, but it works.

At the moment, one of my oldest friends is dying, and I am in a seething rage about it, so I am trying not to vomit it over my nearest and dearest, not always successfully. But it is better than turning inwards on oneself. Well, OK, guilt is another factor here! Of course I am fucking guilty, so go fuck yourself, guilty voice.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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orfeo

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(By the way, for those with sufficient memories: this was the university course I was doing. Which I hadn't wanted to do anyway but had to for work, and which was being run online in the most isolating way possible with poorly thought out software.

And which at certain stages my head told me I was going to fail, and place my job at risk - the best job I've ever had. Passed the thing with distinction in the end, but you don't know that when you're sitting in a hotel room a couple of weeks into the course on a pre-planned trip wondering what the hell they're actually expecting of you and speculating whether arranging a disastrous accident will permanently get you out of having to do this thing.)

[ 10. May 2013, 23:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Sioni Sais
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orfeo, you definitely have something there.

I manage to keep most of my anger on-line (and most of it on the Hell board at that) but now and again when I think things, but mostly people, are actually trying to act against me I do get angry. I try to walk round the building before doing anything, but I'm not always successful. Maybe this hasn't done me any favours on the career progresion front but I have long felt that has saved me the need for yet more medical consultation.

I don't claim this is a coping strategy; perhaps my reaction to anything that could become a black dog is to give it a good shoeing. Then again, I'm not fond of dogs, whatever colour they may be.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Jengie jon

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Please to re-echo my previous post. Just because it is true for some with the diagnosis of depression does not mean it is true for all!

Depression is mental health diagnosis like the common cold, it covers an awful wide range of symptoms and forms (well actually it goes right through flu to pleurisy and pnuemonia).It also has multiple causes. Anger repressed or other wise may be a cause or a symptom. Or it may not be present at all.


Jengie

[ 11. May 2013, 08:24: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I try to walk round the building before doing anything,......

....I don't claim this is a coping strategy; perhaps my reaction to anything that could become a black dog is to give it a good shoeing.

That is certainly part of coping strategy to my mind SS . I known of two incidences where teenage boys have used walking to contain anger .
One was still at school and actually had a teacher who advised him to leave during the lesson and walk around the playground if he felt the anger brewing.

Anger turned inwards is a big part of The Dog's diet, any means of disposing of it in non-destructive ways is worth knowing.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please to re-echo my previous post. Just because it is true for some with the diagnosis of depression does not mean it is true for all!

Depression is mental health diagnosis like the common cold, it covers an awful wide range of symptoms and forms (well actually it goes right through flu to pleurisy and pnuemonia).It also has multiple causes. Anger repressed or other wise may be a cause or a symptom. Or it may not be present at all.


Jengie

Read and inwardly digested Jengie. Makes sense.

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a theological scrapbook

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quetzalcoatl
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I don't think anybody is suggesting that anger is always present in depression, are they? I think it is a fairly common accompaniment, and some people find relief in expressing the anger in various ways. But the anger is pretty complex in any case, sometimes arising from the 'narcissistic wound', but not always.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Sioni Sais
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bump. For the Northern hemisphere SAD times.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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QLib

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I think I'm a bit of a lightweight in this field, compared with the burdens some are carrying. But anxiety is my trigger, and I have anxiety in spades at the moment. Trying to avoid using those spades to dig that hole. The black dog image doesn't really work for me - too fond of dogs - but it is a bastard and I want it to stop.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Sighthound
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I thought I had driven off the Black Dog, but just last week realised that he was just hiding round the corner, waiting to be whistled. How easily he comes to hand!

I wish I could have swapped him for the beautiful pair of black greyhounds I met in Stow the other day. Sadly, such swaps are not available.

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Supporter of Tia Greyhound and Lurcher Rescue.http://tiagreyhounds.org/

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The Midge
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I don't know Sighthound. Dad's pooch always seems to cheer me up.

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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.

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quetzalcoatl
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Animals and plants do help some people. I suppose they are just there, or here, and they kind of accept you, and you are part of them, or something. Plus you can shower love on them, and they don't pull a face.

A black greyhound! Cor, I would give my right arm for that. Or a whippet, or lurcher.

[ 15. September 2013, 08:12: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Welease Woderwick

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If you have a whippet you have to get the cloth cap, too.

Stress is a bugger for me, too - it arrived out of the blue from a discussion, a chance remark really, at breakfast and has been hovering there all day - bastard!

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
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Alicïa
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# 7668

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I think the thing about dogs is: they can help in the fight against the black dog, because that they force one to take action that is helpful, for example a walk in the fresh air. In the sunshine. Or in the wind and rain. No excuses because they depend on you for their exercise and their own well being. So this in itself helps.

In my own humble experience I have suffered far less of the lows since looking after dogs than before.

Also there is a feeling of unconditional love that a pet can evoke that can have a calming effect. It may not work for everyone but that's my own view.

[ 15. September 2013, 14:17: Message edited by: Alicïa ]

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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness

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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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Yes.
Fuck depression, whatever form of animal vegetable or mineral it chooses to represent itself in.

Fuck it sideways with a tractor. A sharp rusty tractor.
Fuck it all.
Fuck.

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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Alicïa
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# 7668

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That too. It's a total bastard. That pooch is a flea bitten mongrel of a beast.

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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness

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Mad Cat
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# 9104

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In my effort to battle depression with humour, my new anti-despair mantra is: "No surrender!"

If I hear it in a grizzled and furious Ulster accent, it makes me laugh.

(Disclaimer: apologies if this seems in poor taste. I in no way imply support for any group in the conflict in Northern Ireland.)

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Weird and sweary.

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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I don't believe this video has been posted. It is Dr. Sapolsky of Stanford explaining some things about depression.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Theophania
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# 16647

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I can see dimly through the fog of Don't Care that I should be jolly angry and fighting to get back. But I can't be bothered. Stupid fogapathydon'tcare. Too big to care about, not enough angry or enough me to take it on.

Somewhere deep down I have all the expletives and rage and fighting back. I hope.

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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quote:
not enough angry or enough me to take it on.
Now I know that Dr Sapolski (nice name, nice beard, apparently nice man - thanks, Mere Nick) calls this "psychomotor retardation". I think I'm pleased it has a name, but I don't know what else.

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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There's a name for the treacle-fog?
I might find that encouraging if I had the arsedness left at the moment.

Fuck. I am a useless thing.

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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Anglo Catholic Relict
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# 17213

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quote:
Originally posted by Theophania:
I can see dimly through the fog of Don't Care that I should be jolly angry and fighting to get back. But I can't be bothered. Stupid fogapathydon'tcare. Too big to care about, not enough angry or enough me to take it on.

Somewhere deep down I have all the expletives and rage and fighting back. I hope.

At this point I pretend to be a cork in a storm at sea. The waves are too big to fight, so I just let them take me down, and stop fighting it. Corks can be completely overwhelmed, and go a long way down, but they always come back up again in time.

I do as St Isaac the Syrian recommends. He says when life becomes too much to face, that we should wrap our head in our cloak, go to bed and stay there until we feel better.

I do that a lot. [Smile]

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Anglo Catholic Relict
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# 17213

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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
not enough angry or enough me to take it on.
Now I know that Dr Sapolski (nice name, nice beard, apparently nice man - thanks, Mere Nick) calls this "psychomotor retardation". I think I'm pleased it has a name, but I don't know what else.
It is a protection, imo.

This may not work for everyone; I apologise if it seems too trite for words.

When we are very depressed it is a good thing when we can't be bothered to find a cliff from which to jump. Taking to our beds instead keeps us alive.

Be grateful for that fog. Wrap yourself in it, as if it were the wings of an angel, keeping you from harm. Angel wings around us feel exactly the same as a blanket; find a blanket, close your eyes, and the angel is there.

This works sometimes, and is completely useless other times. But sometimes is something.

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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Thanks ACR, that's helpful.

Sapolski seems to suggest that it is now thought stress hormones (Cortisol) play a role in low dopamine / seratonin etc for some of us in the ranks of the depressed.

So let's try delaying the cashing-in of my SSRI script yet further, by refusing my habitual stress and anger. More 'kindly desist, black dog.' And if I can do that without a drink, I'll really be making some progress.

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Mad Cat
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# 9104

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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
not enough angry or enough me to take it on.
Now I know that Dr Sapolski (nice name, nice beard, apparently nice man - thanks, Mere Nick) calls this "psychomotor retardation". I think I'm pleased it has a name, but I don't know what else.
Yeah, I'm thinking is this why I couldn't get out of bed on friday......

Beats calling myself names!

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Weird and sweary.

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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To deal with depression with "suck it up" also works wonder for broken bones, diabetes, cancer and a whole host of other illnesses.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Anglo Catholic Relict
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# 17213

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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Thanks ACR, that's helpful.

Sapolski seems to suggest that it is now thought stress hormones (Cortisol) play a role in low dopamine / seratonin etc for some of us in the ranks of the depressed.

I have an anxiety disorder, and am very stressed most of the time. I end up very easily exhausted, which is not always easy to distinguish from depression. Either way I am capable of nothing much except sleep.

quote:

So let's try delaying the cashing-in of my SSRI script yet further, by refusing my habitual stress and anger. More 'kindly desist, black dog.' And if I can do that without a drink, I'll really be making some progress.

Tea is good. [Smile]
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luvanddaisies

the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761

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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

So let's try delaying the cashing-in of my SSRI script yet further, by refusing my habitual stress and anger. More 'kindly desist, black dog.'

I'm delaying getting mine because I can't afford the prescription charge. If they let me claim jobseeker's allowance I think I don't have to pay for it. Unfortunately, even a tin of Spam would be treated as a less processed, less useless and less pointless object than one feels wading through the system, so it's not ideal, really.
Fuck it all.

--------------------
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

So let's try delaying the cashing-in of my SSRI script yet further, by refusing my habitual stress and anger. More 'kindly desist, black dog.'

I'm delaying getting mine because I can't afford the prescription charge. If they let me claim jobseeker's allowance I think I don't have to pay for it. Unfortunately, even a tin of Spam would be treated as a less processed, less useless and less pointless object than one feels wading through the system, so it's not ideal, really.
Fuck it all.

Tell your doctor about it. Mine prescribed a generic that costs me 10 cents a day.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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