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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn out?
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
It seems to me that strange things are going on. UK politics has forgotten which way is up. There is not just a disconnection but a mighty canyon between voters and professional politicians (into which populists like Trump and Farage have stepped).
I think some of the malaise in both the UK and US is due to the FPTP system. The result of this has been that the major parties are these huge and fairly unwieldly coalitions of interests - in europe pressure has been relieved by alternate voting systems allowing new parties to form.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I think some of the malaise in both the UK and US is due to the FPTP system. The result of this has been that the major parties are these huge and fairly unwieldly coalitions of interests - in europe pressure has been relieved by alternate voting systems allowing new parties to form.
This is, I think, a very good point.
In recent history, Cameron wouldn't have had to hold the Tories together with the promise of a referendum, the SNP wouldn't have had such a clean sweep of Westminster seats, both the Greens and UKIP would have had a sizeable parliamentary presence (a mixed blessing there...) and the in-fighting of the Labour party would be much easier solved.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
... The major difference being that Corbyn actually has the interests of the people in his efforts. ...
Does he? I don't see any evidence that he has much interest in anyone or anything except himself, his pet ideas and his claque group.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
... The major difference being that Corbyn actually has the interests of the people in his efforts. ...
Does he? I don't see any evidence that he has much interest in anyone or anything except himself, his pet ideas and his claque group.
"his pet ideas" seem to be about tackling inequality and discrimination, increasing democracy, promoting peace, improving pay and conditions for working people, making sure we continue to have an effective health service free at the point of use etc etc.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
... The major difference being that Corbyn actually has the interests of the people in his efforts. ...
Does he? I don't see any evidence that he has much interest in anyone or anything except himself, his pet ideas and his claque group.
"his pet ideas" seem to be about tackling inequality and discrimination, increasing democracy, promoting peace, improving pay and conditions for working people, making sure we continue to have an effective health service free at the point of use etc etc.
Those are the issues for the poor, not people.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Luigi
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# 4031
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Posted
It isn't Jeremy that I find scary but his fans. Many seem to have a belief in him that is almost messianic. Every single one of PLP who voted against him can be dismissed as evil, apparently. The view that the 80% of the PLP are 100% wrong with immoral motivation is alarming.
No logic can get through to them that suggests the picture may be a little bit more complicated. That actually he may not be perfect. He might have, whisper it, weaknesses!
Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
"his pet ideas" seem to be about tackling inequality and discrimination, increasing democracy, promoting peace, improving pay and conditions for working people, making sure we continue to have an effective health service free at the point of use etc etc.
With the exception of the last, those are aspirations, not ideas. They, including the last, almost everybody claims to aspire to, even including Mrs May.
Of those aspirations, his 'idea' for 'increasing democracy' is that power should rest in his claque, not the people or the electorate, just one of many reasons why I detest everything he stands for.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
It isn't Jeremy that I find scary but his fans. Many seem to have a belief in him that is almost messianic. Every single one of PLP who voted against him can be dismissed as evil, apparently. The view that the 80% of the PLP are 100% wrong with immoral motivation is alarming.
No logic can get through to them that suggests the picture may be a little bit more complicated. That actually he may not be perfect. He might have, whisper it, weaknesses!
That's the main reason I'm voting for a change of leader, having supported Corbyn last year.
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Luigi
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# 4031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
It isn't Jeremy that I find scary but his fans. Many seem to have a belief in him that is almost messianic. Every single one of PLP who voted against him can be dismissed as evil, apparently. The view that the 80% of the PLP are 100% wrong with immoral motivation is alarming.
No logic can get through to them that suggests the picture may be a little bit more complicated. That actually he may not be perfect. He might have, whisper it, weaknesses!
That's the main reason I'm voting for a change of leader, having supported Corbyn last year.
Certainly it is for me the main reason I have moved from defending him more often than not to feeling there is something deeply toxic at work here.
Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
It isn't Jeremy that I find scary but his fans. Many seem to have a belief in him that is almost messianic. Every single one of PLP who voted against him can be dismissed as evil, apparently. The view that the 80% of the PLP are 100% wrong with immoral motivation is alarming.
A lot of folks have invested hope in him. And much of that was a proper and understandable reaction to the game which politics has become. Jeremy is different. It is hard to see hope disappointed. It is hard to believe the messengers of bad news who tell you that he just isn't up to the job. It is easier to believe the fault lies with them, that they must have base motives for their criticism.
It's a difficult pill to swallow. I get that. But where does the truth lie?
But I think there is more than just a loyalty, even an idolatrous loyalty, at work here. I think part of his support is indeed disingenuous, or at least subject to mixed motivations, coming from more extremist socialist movements who see a means of increasing their own power and influence. I hope he does not become a prisoner of such factions. I hope he is not tempted to go in that direction. He is worth a lot more than that.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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betjemaniac
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# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I hope he does not become a prisoner of such factions.
FWIW gossip in the Westminster pubs is that he already is. The story goes that he's been wanting to step down for weeks if not months as he knows he's no good at it and more importantly is hating every minute of it all. The inner circle are refusing to let him go. Allegedly.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I hope he does not become a prisoner of such factions.
FWIW gossip in the Westminster pubs is that he already is. The story goes that he's been wanting to step down for weeks if not months as he knows he's no good at it and more importantly is hating every minute of it all. The inner circle are refusing to let him go. Allegedly.
Corbyn is presumably a cipher? The hard left have waited decades to get to the top of the Labour Party. If Corbyn falls, they (and their decades of work) fail too. I can hardly see them letting him go in a hurry.
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Luigi
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# 4031
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Posted
Barnabus - maybe that is why I find so much of the current stuff on places like 'The Canary' so disturbing - also known as 'Corbyn Or Death'. Yes I get that they think Jeremy was different, unique even, a total one off, if you really push it.
However, much of my defence of him was based on, if (a big 'if' I know) he gets voted in it won't be Armageddon. The scare stories in the Mail are just that. He will have to compromise and there is considerable inertia in the UK system therefore what he will achieve (positive and negative) in his first term will be limited.
I guess I never had any illusions so I don't feel they have been thwarted.
I think you are right about some other more dubious characters / influences being at work here.
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
I've only recently discovered The Canary. I encourage people to read the incredibly pretentious writer bios. They're hilarious.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sipech
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# 16870
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Posted
I'm not sure if it belongs here or on the Trident thread, but it seems that Corbyn's position on Trident shows there is a fundamental flaw in the democratic process of the Labour party.
He was elected as leader on an anti-Trident ticket. It wasn't a secret that he opposes the use of weapons of mass destruction; it's something he's held to consistently throughout his career.
Yet at the same time the official Labour position was to renew Trident.
Both Jeremy and Labour's position on nuclear weapons were voted for by a majority of members. Yet the two are incompatible.
So when Labour members voted for Jeremy, were they voting for a leader or for a blank slate who would wear whatever policies were voted for at the party conference?
It seems to me that the membership is simply caught in two minds and that one of the root causes of their current problems is this cognitive dissonance about what constitutes a leader in a democratic movement.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Part of the cognitive dissonance is because of the left/right split. This has always existed in Labour, but Blair began a trek to the right, and I suppose some recent members are objecting to that, and want to reclaim what they see as foundational Labour values. This is called 'hard left' by some, but strikes me as classic social democracy.
So now you have a left-leaning membership and a right-leaning plp.
I guess that one of them has to give in the end, and there is a split.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Ariel
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# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But I think there is more than just a loyalty, even an idolatrous loyalty, at work here. I think part of his support is indeed disingenuous, or at least subject to mixed motivations, coming from more extremist socialist movements who see a means of increasing their own power and influence. I hope he does not become a prisoner of such factions.
I haven't wanted to say that but that's how it's seemed to me for a while now. Corbyn is coming across as in the pocket of forces he has little or no control over. And I agree about some of his fans. The intimidation and threats have been disturbing to read about in recent weeks.
[ 21. July 2016, 11:21: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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leftfieldlover
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# 13467
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I hope he does not become a prisoner of such factions.
FWIW gossip in the Westminster pubs is that he already is. The story goes that he's been wanting to step down for weeks if not months as he knows he's no good at it and more importantly is hating every minute of it all. The inner circle are refusing to let him go. Allegedly.
Sorry folks, but surely Mr Corbyn has a spine! He just has to tell them he is finished. I voted for Yvette Cooper in the leadership election and was horrified when Corbyn was chosen. I somehow knew he wouldn't stay leader for long. First, he is too old and second, he does not have that particular quality of leadership which is surely necessary. He says many things that I agree with (Trident for e.g.) but I fear he is destined for the back benches once more. Just an interesting aside, why on earth couldn't any of the failed challengers from last year stick their heads above the parapet? Owen Smith - who is he?
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I can gauge your mood from your approach to food.
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
"his pet ideas" seem to be about tackling inequality and discrimination, increasing democracy, promoting peace, improving pay and conditions for working people, making sure we continue to have an effective health service free at the point of use etc etc.
With the exception of the last, those are aspirations, not ideas. They, including the last, almost everybody claims to aspire to, even including Mrs May.
Of those aspirations, his 'idea' for 'increasing democracy' is that power should rest in his claque, not the people or the electorate, just one of many reasons why I detest everything he stands for.
Does that destestation extend to those aspirations listed above. If not, then you can't detest everything he stands for, since he stands for those things.
You see, this is what I don't understand. I can understand you (generic) disliking his style. I can understand you (generic) disagreeing with him on policies (though they seem to me to be the sort of policies which you could reasonably expect from a moderate left of centre politician), but this visceral almost hatred I really can't understand. He seems to me to be in every way a moderate, polite, honourable man, with an exemplary record of public service, perhaps even being on the fringe of boring. Not really a candidate for anyone's hatred, I would have thought.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
Jolly Jape, even from 20,000km away, and really having no direct interest in the outcome, I hope that Corbyn for once in his political lifetime behaves in the honourable manner you attribute to him, announces he will not be a candidate for election, and sticks to that.
Over his long career, he has shown very little loyalty to the party in whose name he nominally stood. He must have hit some sort of record in voting against the policies the party espoused. I find it hard to describe his politics as being moderate left. Even in UK terms they are well to the left. Over the years he has floated around all sorts of extreme positions, most notoriously in relation to the IRA, but a myriad of others as well. Add to this the stories now emerging of his inability to manage his private office and to consult with his own front bench. Electorally he's going to be a disaster.
What's the problem with his hard left politics? They are appealing to a group of voters. In the 80s, this was the Militant Tendency, a group which attempted to gain by industrial action what could not be obtained at the ballot box. The result? Years of Thatcher and the divisive politics on which she thrived. Years of whittling away at social welfare reforms which until then had had largely bi-partisan support since the Attlee years. Years of backward financial changes.
Now there's Corbyn. Should he remain leader, he'll continue to appeal to Momentum, which seems from here to have many similarities with the Militant Tendency. The consequences will be much the same, with government handed on a silver platter to the Tories until at least 2025 and more likely 2030 with no effective opposition. That's why he should step down now with minimal further disruption to his party.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
And I agree about some of his fans. The intimidation and threats have been disturbing to read about in recent weeks.
Corbyn has been receiving death threats. Who do you think those have been coming from? Of course the media focusses on dubious claims that threats made to other MPs are from Corbyn supporters, but many of those have turned out to be false (e.g. Luciana Berger had death threats from a neo-Nazi which some people - not her, to her credit - attributed to Corbyn supporters), likewise the nonsense where Eagle claimed her office had been attacked (it wasn't) and implied that Corbyn supporters were responsible (no evidence of that at all).
Most of the alleged "threats and intimidation" from Corbyn supporters have turned out to be emails asking someone to vote a particular way. The quantity is likely unnerving, yes, if you're an NEC member who doesn't usually get a lot of correspondence from party members, but it's not intimidation.
As for Smith's little dance he did where he claimed some people were saying that Corbyn was encouraging abuse but then refused to make the claim himself, I thought that was a despicable little bit of cowardice. Either make the accusation and be prepared to support it or keep your mouth shut.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Strong rumours going around that if Corbyn wins again, that most MPs will not split but will hang on, even Blairites. I would think that one factor may be the awful lesson of Polly Toynbee and the SDP, and also, if there is an election before 2020, and Labour lose, they would anticipate a new leader.
Only rumours though.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Jolly Jape, I find it hard to describe his politics as being moderate left. Even in UK terms they are well to the left. Over the years he has floated around all sorts of extreme positions, most notoriously in relation to the IRA, but a myriad of others as well.
Would that be the condemnation of violence by all sides, and the belief that, as that well known hard leftist Winston Churchill said, jaw jaw is better than war war? Yes, he has a record of voting against his own party, but he can make a pretty good case that he was the one in the right, and that time has demonstrated that.
As for his "hard left" political stance, there is nothing in his political programme that could not have been said by Hugh Gateskill or RAB Butler, Harold Wilson or Ted Heath, or, indeed, any mainstream politician prior to Margaret Thatcher.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
[L]ikewise the nonsense where Eagle claimed her office had been attacked (it wasn't)
But that brick did go through her office window, right?
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
[L]ikewise the nonsense where Eagle claimed her office had been attacked (it wasn't)
But that brick did go through her office window, right?
No.
The brick went through a ground floor window into a stairwell, in a building shared by six organisations.
Eagle's office windows (also ground floor) were entirely untouched.
Now, if I shared a building with five other flats and the common stairwell window was broken, I'd probably be over-reaching if I said my flat had been broken into, given that none of my windows nor the front door to my flat had been attacked in any way.
YMMV
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Forward the New Republic
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
On the other hand, if there was the only person/ organisation in the block that had been getting hate-mail and threats of violence (including death threats), most people would think it reasonable to assume that they were the intended recipient of the brick. (The Clapham Omnibus test is entirely proved.)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Helen-Eva
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# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leftfieldlover:
Just an interesting aside, why on earth couldn't any of the failed challengers from last year stick their heads above the parapet? Owen Smith - who is he?
I've wondered that too - I'm guessing it's because they thought someone entirely fresh who'd not stood before would be more likely to win and be easier for Corbyn supporters to defect to.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
It's known to be a very rough area. Random vandalism is a more likely explanation. Even if Eagle was being targeted, after recent events the more likely candidates are far right nutjobs with a history of this sort of thing.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Does that destestation extend to those aspirations listed above. If not, then you can't detest everything he stands for, since he stands for those things.
You see, this is what I don't understand. I can understand you (generic) disliking his style. I can understand you (generic) disagreeing with him on policies (though they seem to me to be the sort of policies which you could reasonably expect from a moderate left of centre politician), but this visceral almost hatred I really can't understand. He seems to me to be in every way a moderate, polite, honourable man, with an exemplary record of public service, perhaps even being on the fringe of boring. Not really a candidate for anyone's hatred, I would have thought.
Jolly Jape, I would have replied but even from 20,000 km away, Gee D has said everything I would have wanted to say better than I could.
[ 21. July 2016, 14:03: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
On the other hand, if there was the only person/ organisation in the block that had been getting hate-mail and threats of violence (including death threats), most people would think it reasonable to assume that they were the intended recipient of the brick. (The Clapham Omnibus test is entirely proved.)
Eagle's office windows have Labour party stickers. Pretty easy to identify.
And the same address is home to a lot of property management companies too. Disgruntled tenants? Who knows? You certainly don't.
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Forward the New Republic
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Jolly Jape, I find it hard to describe his politics as being moderate left. Even in UK terms they are well to the left. Over the years he has floated around all sorts of extreme positions, most notoriously in relation to the IRA, but a myriad of others as well.
Would that be the condemnation of violence by all sides, and the belief that, as that well known hard leftist Winston Churchill said, jaw jaw is better than war war? Yes, he has a record of voting against his own party, but he can make a pretty good case that he was the one in the right, and that time has demonstrated that.
As for his "hard left" political stance, there is nothing in his political programme that could not have been said by Hugh Gateskill or RAB Butler, Harold Wilson or Ted Heath, or, indeed, any mainstream politician prior to Margaret Thatcher.
I don't like - really don't like what he inspires in his followers. As to violence - well we know that no matter what is reported it won't be accepted by his followers. The confirmation bias is turned up to 10!
I agree with almost all his programme but the violence that comes with this 'purer than thou' ideology stinks. I don't necessarily mean physical violence.
Anyone who is against Corbyn is morally bankrupt Anyone who disagrees with him is a Blairite (which I have learnt goes with scum implicitly or explicitly). The motivation of most of the PLP is known just by how they voted! The conspiracy theories that proliferate. He may be a pacifist but boy are his followers giving the press an awful lot of ammunition and most of it will stick. I have seen some of it first hand.
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Callan
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# 525
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Posted
Presumably the fact that the Wallasey Labour Party has recently been suspended for intimidation and homophobic abuse directed at the local MP was also entirely due to the roughness of the local neighbourhood and the disgruntlement of tenants whose landlords have been less than prompt in fixing the bog?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Sipech
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# 16870
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Posted
I'd agree with Jolly Jape that Corbyn most definitely is a moderate, the trouble is that very few ever listen to what he actually says. It's been documented that he is consistently misreported.
But as Luigi points out, it is some of his followers that are the problem. They also don't listen to him. It's not Jeremy Corbyn that they like. It's the idea of Jeremy Corbyn that gets them excited.
It's groups like the Socialist Workers' Party (SWP) see Corbyn as a kind of infiltrator, as though his 33 years in parliament as a Labour MP has been some kind of ruse to worm his way to power and herald a smashing of capitalism, in spite of him being very supporting of the tech businesses that thrive in his own constituency.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Presumably the fact that the Wallasey Labour Party has recently been suspended for intimidation and homophobic abuse directed at the local MP was also entirely due to ...landlords [who] have been less than prompt in fixing the bog?
With all this Blairite scum around, surely a build up was bound to cause problems sooner or later?
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Presumably the fact that the Wallasey Labour Party has recently been suspended for intimidation and homophobic abuse directed at the local MP was also entirely due to the roughness of the local neighbourhood and the disgruntlement of tenants whose landlords have been less than prompt in fixing the bog?
Yes, the very people I would have anticipated knowing where their MP's ground floor office was... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Let's face it, you've jumped to a conclusion, and you're sticking to it. May be you're right, may be you're wrong. But you don't actually care.
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Forward the New Republic
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Yes, Sipech, that helps me to understand the use of 'hard left' by some people as a description of Corbyn. That suggests to me the smashing of capitalism, or some such phrase, whereas for me Corbyn stands as a classic social democrat, mixed economy and so on.
Mind you, in today's climate, social democracy seems to be considered a fearful danger to the neoliberal position.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
My goodness, I hope I'm never unfortunate enough to be wrongfully arrested and come up against some of you in the jury. Apparently, lack of evidence doesn't stop some folks from pronouncing the accused guilty. It's just "the usual suspects". We know that people like him are wrong 'und, so we'll just dispence with small difficulties like a total lack of evidence.
Of course there are some nasty people out there, and they are confined neither to the left or the right. I think that Corbyn has had his share of death threats against him. Do (generic) you have the same visceral dislike of Eagle or Smith because of the wicked actions of some of their unwelcome followers.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Confirmation bias is a fearful thing, and at the moment seems to rule on all sides. There are various paranoid narratives in Labour at the moment, but there seems to be a lack of skepticism towards one's own, or shall we say, a lack of postmodern distancing. As Brecht said ... oh fuck off, Brecht.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Presumably the fact that the Wallasey Labour Party has recently been suspended for intimidation and homophobic abuse directed at the local MP was also entirely due to the roughness of the local neighbourhood and the disgruntlement of tenants whose landlords have been less than prompt in fixing the bog?
Yes, the very people I would have anticipated knowing where their MP's ground floor office was...
Let's face it, you've jumped to a conclusion, and you're sticking to it. May be you're right, may be you're wrong. But you don't actually care.
So what have we got so far: 1/ There has been a brick through the window of the building in which Angela Eagle's constituency office is based. 2/ When she was in the running to stand for the Labour leadership she had to be given police protection 3/ Her Constituency Labour Party has been suspended by the national party for intimidation and homophobic abuse directed at her. Oh, and 4/ It has just been reported that she has been advised by Plod not to do her constituency surgeries for her own safety. In the circumstances, Watson, it is hardly unreasonable to surmise that there is clearly an element among Corbyn's support who are not entirely signed up to this kinder, gentler, politics malarkey. And whilst I have never met an 'out' member of the brick throwing community, my general impression is that they do not really have much of a grasp of very much, beyond the impact of certain types of masonry against glass windows and it does not strike me that they would be punctilious about putting a brick through exactly the 'correct' window.
Now it may transpire to be the case that the brick was thrown by someone else, the Wallasey fuzz are gentle unworldly souls who mistake fraternal disagreement for intimidation, and that Labour Party central have got entirely the wrong end of the stick with regards to the state of play in the Wallasey constituency party. But, as things stand, there is a fairly solid prima facie case for expressing a certain amount of concern at the situation.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
I don't like - really don't like what he inspires in his followers. As to violence - well we know that no matter what is reported it won't be accepted by his followers. The confirmation bias is turned up to 10!
I agree with almost all his programme but the violence that comes with this 'purer than thou' ideology stinks. I don't necessarily mean physical violence.
Anyone who is against Corbyn is morally bankrupt Anyone who disagrees with him is a Blairite (which I have learnt goes with scum implicitly or explicitly).
Thanks - that's really helped me understand what it is that's winding me up about this whole thing. It's the holier than thou attitude and the fact that dissent is treated as heresy. Really annoys me.
Oh and Anglican't - the Blairite scum/blocked bogs joke - really cheered me up.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, Sipech, that helps me to understand the use of 'hard left' by some people as a description of Corbyn. That suggests to me the smashing of capitalism, or some such phrase, whereas for me Corbyn stands as a classic social democrat, mixed economy and so on.
Mind you, in today's climate, social democracy seems to be considered a fearful danger to the neoliberal position.
True enough. There is nothing resembling the Trotskyist Militant Tendency in the Labour Party nor any MPs like Terry Fields and Dave Nellist. It would be useful to have them to remind everyone of the real position of Jeremy Corbyn.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Pottage
Shipmate
# 9529
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Confirmation bias is a fearful thing, and at the moment seems to rule on all sides. There are various paranoid narratives in Labour at the moment, but there seems to be a lack of skepticism towards one's own, or shall we say, a lack of postmodern distancing. As Brecht said ... oh fuck off, Brecht.
It does seem to be running in both directions, but not with equal vigour. For instance I've not seen anyone from the "anti-Corbyn" camp refuse to take his word for it when Jeremy Corbyn says he has received death threats and abuse. However, many of the "pro-Corbyn" camp do seem to dispute Angela Eagle's statement that she has been threatened. This is despite the fact that Jeremy Corbyn himself clearly takes what she says at face value since he has (rightly) condemned those responsible. As indeed do the police, who have investigated those threats and arrested someone on suspicion of making them, and who have apparently now advised her not to hold surgeries for the moment.
The window might turn out to have been broken by someone from the Royal Oak opposite, taking a shortcut down the path at the side of the Sherlock House at closing time. It's not THAT rough an area that windows are being broken all the time, and Wallasey Police Station is only about 200 yards down the street, but that's possible. It's certainly a coincidence that the damage occurred the very day she announced she would stand against Jeremy Corbyn, but coincidences do happen. But even if it wasn't broken by someone wanting to send Angela Eagle a message though, given that timing and the immediate history of threats and abuse, you can quite understand why she might suspect that it was.
Posts: 701 | From: middle England | Registered: May 2005
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
The sooner Corbyn is out the better.
He is backed by Momentum and neo-communist grouping wich tolerates no opposition.
He threatens his MPs with deselection then proffers words of reconciliation. Hypocrite.
The man is a born loser. The sooner out the better
Since most of the Ship seems to be Corbynistas I will refrain from further comment and wait to see the reaction in 6 months time.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
My goodness, I hope I'm never unfortunate enough to be wrongfully arrested and come up against some of you in the jury. Apparently, lack of evidence doesn't stop some folks from pronouncing the accused guilty. It's just "the usual suspects". We know that people like him are wrong 'und, so we'll just dispence with small difficulties like a total lack of evidence.
Of course there are some nasty people out there, and they are confined neither to the left or the right. I think that Corbyn has had his share of death threats against him. Do (generic) you have the same visceral dislike of Eagle or Smith because of the wicked actions of some of their unwelcome followers.
I can only go on the evidence that I have seen first hand. I don't know which side has been more guilty in terms of threats of physical violence. All I know is that whenever the actions of the PLP are discussed by some of my acquaintances, people I have always found to be considerate and pleasant in the past, suddenly they adopt this zealot type attitude where any one who dares to suggest that there might have been wrong on both sides - that the PLP have a duty to those who had directly elected them as well as the party members who gave JC a mandate - is aggressively called a plotter or a traitor.
By coincidence I met a momentum just over a week ago who again had been pleasant enough previously - I didn't know at the beginning of the conversation that he was in the Labour party. When I mentioned that I knew a certain MP. He almost jumped down my throat pointing out that the MP had nominated Liz Kendall, he said with relish about how soon the MP would be deselected.
The Blairite scum (or wanker) coupling I have come across many times. Sometimes from friends - not aimed at me but when talking of all the PLP - who I have always found to be reasonable, considerate. It is the way this belief in JC affects people that bothers me.
I've only come across this problem in the past few weeks. However, the more people come across this aggression the more traction these ideas will get.
Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
The sooner Corbyn is out the better.
He is backed by Momentum and neo-communist grouping wich tolerates no opposition.
He threatens his MPs with deselection then proffers words of reconciliation. Hypocrite.
The man is a born loser. The sooner out the better
Since most of the Ship seems to be Corbynistas I will refrain from further comment and wait to see the reaction in 6 months time.
To paraphrase a late, much lamented shipmate, that is bollocks. You appear blissfully unaware of the realignment in British politics that has seen the Labour left of Tony Benn, Peter Shore and, say, Eric Heffer relabelled as Communism and J Enoch Powell brought into the political centre.
[ 21. July 2016, 17:37: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
Sorry should make clear. When I say:
"I've only come across this problem in the past few weeks. However, the more people come across this aggression the more traction these ideas will get."
I mean the more people come across this aggression the more traction the idea that the idealistic left is dominated by a bunch of thugs, will get. Which I think would be shame.
[ 21. July 2016, 17:44: Message edited by: Luigi ]
Posts: 752 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
The sooner Corbyn is out the better.
He is backed by Momentum and neo-communist grouping wich tolerates no opposition.
He threatens his MPs with deselection then proffers words of reconciliation. Hypocrite.
The man is a born loser. The sooner out the better
Since most of the Ship seems to be Corbynistas I will refrain from further comment and wait to see the reaction in 6 months time.
To paraphrase a late, much lamented shipmate, that is bollocks.
You mean Corbyn isn't backed by Momentum and doesn't have support from neo-communist/militant groups? And he hasn't threatened his MPs with deselection? Not sure what you're objecting to here.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Presumably the fact that the Wallasey Labour Party has recently been suspended for intimidation and homophobic abuse directed at the local MP was also entirely due to the roughness of the local neighbourhood and the disgruntlement of tenants whose landlords have been less than prompt in fixing the bog?
You mean the homophobic abuse that the CLP chair and her married lesbian daughter have seen neither hide nor hair of? There have been a number of instances recently where CLPs have been suspended over alleged concerns about abuse to save the blushes of right wing MPs, in this case because there was a strong possibility of Eagle being deselected. Where is the evidence that this alleged abuse took place and that it involved members of the CLP?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Presumably the fact that the Wallasey Labour Party has recently been suspended for intimidation and homophobic abuse directed at the local MP was also entirely due to the roughness of the local neighbourhood and the disgruntlement of tenants whose landlords have been less than prompt in fixing the bog?
You mean the homophobic abuse that the CLP chair and her married lesbian daughter have seen neither hide nor hair of? There have been a number of instances recently where CLPs have been suspended over alleged concerns about abuse to save the blushes of right wing MPs, in this case because there was a strong possibility of Eagle being deselected. Where is the evidence that this alleged abuse took place and that it involved members of the CLP?
So, basically, your position is that the whole business of abuse is a fabrication by Angela Eagle to avoid deselection and that the National Labour Party and the Wallasey Police are over reacting? Okeydoke, let's see how that thesis pans out over the next few months.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
The sooner Corbyn is out the better.
He is backed by Momentum and neo-communist grouping wich tolerates no opposition.
He threatens his MPs with deselection then proffers words of reconciliation. Hypocrite.
The man is a born loser. The sooner out the better
Since most of the Ship seems to be Corbynistas I will refrain from further comment and wait to see the reaction in 6 months time.
To paraphrase a late, much lamented shipmate, that is bollocks.
You mean Corbyn isn't backed by Momentum and doesn't have support from neo-communist/militant groups? And he hasn't threatened his MPs with deselection? Not sure what you're objecting to here.
Why didn't you quote the rest of my post? Then my reply could have made sense.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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