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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Calling God to Hell
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
You'd better get down here NOW, you miserable squirming GIT of a being-creator-of-the-universe.
Why do you think you can just walk away? Huh? Why don't you answer when you're asked something?
What happened to the whole thing of a second chance?
Don't give me the Incarnation spiel - I know it very well. And I believe it. I don't know why, but I do.
What I patently don't understand is why you are such a pasty coloured mound of meringe up somewhere, so uninvolved, so back-turning and denying actually doing things...
Ok so I had a chance and I only realise in retrospect that I blew it. Why does my repenting make no difference to you? Why can't we go back to that point and take the other path? I don't want to go on in this path; it's only brought me misery and shown me that you are like CS Lewis' God of the Mountain in Till We Have Faces... conditions conditions conditions.
Impassive. They say you are impassive. Well in that case I suppose you won't give a flying one that I am complaining so bitterly right now. Oh don't go into the theological bollocks about it all. Impassivity being a term for XYZ features of the character of God radiradirah. No. I mean impassive as in a block of stone, the stone face, the expressionless void you turn to me when I try to run to you.
I don't have a choice, I can't stop believing in you because there is no other choice for me. But I can't stand this horribleness, the grey-porridge vagueness, the distance and emotional detachment. Why can't be we warm and vibrant and together?
Isn't that what relationship means? Not a relationship with the Bible (sometimes I feel so sick of being told to read it to find you that I want to shove it up the speaker's arse in the most painful way possible), not a relationship with my imagination. Not some kind of emotional self-blackmail, not a "nod-in-your-direction-on-a-sunday" relationship. A REAL relationship. Two beings being together experiencing each other, sighing, loving, crying, whispering, talking, laughing, the whole gamut of what it means for a human to have a relationship with another person.
I mean you advertise yourself as a person, so what do you expect? How else are we to envisage relationship? You give us this series of metaphors and say "this is only a pale imitation of what it's really like". I have plumbed the metaphors to great depths and you rejected me. What did I do wrong? Whatever I did I confess it and want to start over - why can't we? I don't know how else one is supposed to relate to you... What I do know is that how it is now is not nice, not beautiful, not close to you, but just grey sludge of which I have had enough. I don't want to wade through grey sludge to get to you. It's not supposed to be grey sludge - or if you are indeed promising us paradise in knowing you, I want a refund and I'd like to sue because you have lied. Why do you ask us to do impossible things? Like wading through sludge, like worshipping and adoring a cold stone God? No - not a cold-stone God, a God who advertises himself to be all warm and loving and caring and all, but is actually quite indifferent.
Look, you've been indifferent to me since I was little, when I first sought you. I have tried and tried and am at the end of my tether. I am bored of this wading, of not having any support, and tired of doing it all alone. I can't give you an ultimatum to get out of my life, but I am calling you here and complaining about how you relate to us because it is all so un-REAL, it's not the way you promise or the way it is advertised to be.
Ha! And the advantage of complaining here is that you can't give a response. Afterall, everything I say to you is met by indifferent silence, so I suppose one more flaming's not going to make a difference... You'll just take it like a martyr, and other people will worship you for it.
*sigh*
Let me cease to exist. Please? I hate being at the mercy of an indifferent God.
[ 15. May 2003, 19:00: Message edited by: Erin ]
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Wanna talk about it, Nunc?
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Not really sure what to say other that :
I echo Mikman's words, and...
I don't relate to the 'personal relationship' stuff and have come to the conclusion that God doesn't actually intervene directly other than through people, with all their faults. It meant a lot of changing the way I thought about God, but....
Maybe you could say a bit more, I can't promise to help, and there's nothing wrong with a bit of a rant, but....
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Nunc has a point. I've wasted more years than I care to count looking for the Holy Grail, that elusive, numinous beauty that shines through the fog for a few brief, hauntingly enchanted minutes, then makes you discontented with everything else. What have I got to show for it? God doesn't care. He's never answered any of my prayers. He has no use for me. The few rare minutes you get to see him, there's no guarantee you will ever see him again. It could be years, it could be forever. Well, I'm disillusioned with it. Play hard to get if you want, I've had enough.
Why do we have to learn through pain? Why can't we learn through happiness? Why bother creating an imperfect species that spends its time apologizing for falling flat on its face when it can't help it? Why bother creating an imperfect species at all? What kind of a being is God?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
I remember a rant in about 1985 in an Anglican church in British Columbia - the church empty except for me, the ranter - everything turning to shit around me. The problem and the substance of the rant:
All those precedents in the bible and church history where God came to rescue his people and why, oh why, did that situation not prevail right now.
All those promises of fellowship, strength, clarity of vision, etc - 'lo I am with you' (yeah, right!) which I was supposed to interpret and promote amongst God's people from the pulpit and they appeared not to be true.
The fact that if God were a parent someone would be quite justified in calling in the social workers to intervene. If he were a manager, the board of directors would be quite justified in firing him.
At least that's how I felt at the time.
I'm of the opinion that you have to mention the distance which exists between what has been promised and what is actually the case. I would go as far as to say that silence in the face of real or perceived non-fulfillment of his promises is non-faith and that one bitches precisely because one believes.
Do we remain stuck in the rant forever? Probably not, but that's not the point.
Raspberry Rabbit
Postmaster,
Ulan Bator, Mongolia
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))
Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Though I may regret coming to Hell, I well understand Nunc's feelings, and shall continue in that mode:
Why do You seem to want to crush whatever I undertake, even when my motive was to live the gospel, not to mention serve Your Church?! Perhaps I could deal with some of my misfortune better was it caused by my committing some terrible sin - but most of it stemmed from genuinely trying to 'do for these least of my brethren.'
Oh, I know I'm supposed to meditate on your Passion - but that no longer works. (When you were my age, you were long dead!) I know your sufferings were horrible, but they lasted about 3 days! How would you have liked to have a much longer life, failing at everything you undertook for the Church, acting with love and being misinterpreted and treated with cruelty, shivering with fear at what else is going wrong or shall soon?
I remember well, from childhood, when the buzz words were 'offer it up.' Well, I'm damned sick of 'offering it up.' I'm all alone, aching, knowing I believe every word of your revelation and wondering why. It's all a game - a "Pollyanna" game of pretending nothing matters. I beg you to help me, just for some relief, some support, but I'm just supposed to pretend "your grace is enough for me."
I have known people who are cruel, self-absorbed, avaricious, sometimes even wicked (and You know what I mean... I'm not talking about the common weakness of humanity), yet there have been places in the Church where they were valued. All I have from You is rejection! Way out there, there is some dim, imperceptible business called "God's will." We cannot know what it is... all we know that it usually involves rejection. I'm damned sick of a life filled with "it wasn't God's will."
(The rest I shall not post, since it is too personal... but I don't know why I'm even praying to You. Perhaps I'm trying to placate You, fearful you'll harm me all the more. Or are you punishing me because, even what I wanted was simple and good - a chance to use talents for your Church - you are angry that I wanted more than I have? Or are you making a worm of me because you love giving us suffering and humiliation so much?)
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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coffee jim
Shipmate
# 3510
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Posted
I don't even believe in You - I'd love to, but I'm scared you'd just be a comfort blanket...and not a very good one at that. I've just started doing the kind of job You're supposed to approve of - working with/for the homeless - and it depresses the hell out of me. I've been closer to tears than I've been for a very long time. If things don't improve, or if I can't stick it out long enough to find a satisfying job elsewhere, I don't know what I'll do. And considering what you haven't done for the people I work with, who are just as deserving as anyone else.... If you met the kind of fate depicted in 'The Second Coming' I'd be very pleased.
Posts: 367 | From: Belfast | Registered: Nov 2002
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
And what in Hell were you talking about, with that 'consider the lilies of the field' business? Your children die in the street every day!
Looking over every part of the scriptures, it seems that all you want your people to do is look for the puzzle! Old Testament patriarchs wondering what would come of the covenant - later OT figures waiting for the Messiah - New Testament ones trying not to mind that the world had not changed with your resurrection, but believing that your full glory (and a little peace for this horrible world!) was at hand - and, then, the final "let's try to make sense of this" in believing that everything was only half fulfilled - it would all work out at the Last Judgement.
Truth does not win! Some people die in prison for crimes they did not commit. Good people have their reputations ruined, and those who calumniated them are believed - even when one would think there was sufficient proof of the goodness for no one to believe the calumny.
What is it with You? Do you enjoy seeing your children begging You for help, then tossing them aside with being indifferent? Do you honestly think that this miserable world is any less so because of some remote promise of eternal bliss after we die?
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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coffee jim
Shipmate
# 3510
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Posted
Don't tempt me to 'do a Perfecta', JL.
Posts: 367 | From: Belfast | Registered: Nov 2002
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
Jesuitical Lad; sensitivity is not hard to come by. Sometimes it just means shutting the hell up.
Now to continue.
When was 'too late'? Why do you say so many things (allegedly) then fail spectacularly to even make an effort to help fulfil them? You know I did what was asked, more than anyone expected me to, more than I ever thought I could, but it still wasn't enough. What was the point in all that went before? Shit, you could have stopped all this years sooner and saved so many people so much heartache. Now it's hit the fan and it's not just me that will suffer for the rest of my life. leaving me out of it, did you really want them to go through this?
I begged, I pleaded, I cried. I embraced lows I never knew could exist. I offered you everyting, anything, just asking one thing in return. But that wasn't good enough. Maybe I'm not good enough, maybe you just let this happen to prove what a piece of crap I am. Happy now? If there had been any positive at all then maybe, just mayebe, I would be able to handle this. But as time goes on all I see is the black chasm continuing for ever, and any points of light fading quickly like worn-out candles in a great cave.
I don't know what you expect from me now, I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't. Ten years thrown away, and next to nothing to show for it - nothing that I can hold on to anyway. And the worst thing? This will only get worse - the real hard bit is still to come. It makes me crushed inside just thinking about it. Thanks for nothing.
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
Oh that you would tear open the Heavens and come down.
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
ChrisT,
My apologies. I suppose I've just never had much time for self-indulgent behaviour. I'll try to be more "sensitive" in future.
Posts: 2307 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Jesuitical Lad, do you have any idea what the people who've posted on this thread are going through in their personal lives?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
Erin,
Well, I know one poster has already trashed the concept, but I was brought up to offer up suffering and unite it to the Cross - the same Cross on which God made man was willing to undergo an agonising death. I think there's something profoundly sick about using personal suffering as a basis for petulant blasphemy.
That said, perhaps I'm too sensitive for this thread. If anyone wants to take issue with anything I've said, PM me. I won't be reading any more posts here.
Posts: 2307 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Qestia
Marshwiggle
# 717
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Posted
Psalm 10 quote:
O Lord, why do you stand so far away?
Why do you hide when I need you most?
Proud and wicked people viciously oppress the poor
. . .
These wicked people are too proud to seek God
They seem to think that God is dead
Yet they succeed in everything they do
Psalm 74
quote:
(1) O God, why have you rejected us forever?
Why is your anger so intense against the sheep of your own pasture?
. . .
(9) We see no miraculous signs
as evidence you will save us
Psalm 77:7-9
quote:
Has the Lord rejected me forever?
Will he never again show me favor?
Is his unfailing love gone forever?
Have his promises permanently failed?
Has God forgotten to be kind?
Has he slammed the door on his compassion?
The above are from the "New Living Translation". I could go on.
Are the psalms petulant blasphemy, JL? I hope that statement is not worthy of you. It's certainly not worth me taking time to PM you.
In The Screwtape Letters CS Lewis says God's best beloved sometimes have to go through the deepest troughs. That what He likes best is when you look around and see no indication of His prescence, and still do His will. I have some idea from my time spent on the Ship how faithful the people who have posted above are. I'm sure God knows better than I.
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I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t an Aslan to lead it.
I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia.
Posts: 1213 | From: Boston | Registered: Jul 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Blasphemy ?
That must mean saying things as we find them, not sticking to some ludicrous, unbending dogma.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
There's a good reason that Buddhism posits a non-personal God, folks.
However, being merely human myself, one of my other mottos is "If you haven't ever yelled at God, you don't really know God."
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
Nunc
Youve put into words something so similar to how I feel. - I'm entering into hell far too much now...!!!!
wibble
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
And he's big enough, he should be able to understand and cope with it. Or if not, he's not worth knowing...
For many of us, *anything* would be good, even God's appearance in a storm to wipe us out (pace Jesuitical Lad - at least God actually SPOKE with Job).
I had no idea I was hitting on a raw nerve in ranting as I did. I see my experience is not unique. All who have this experience of walking in the greyness have my profound sympathy.
Wood, I think I said about all I am able to say. Although maybe I should clarify: "Let me cease to exist" was not meant literally. I was reflecting: there's nowhere we can escape from God, nowhere he isn't. Except in non-existence. In some sense not to exist would be preferable to enduring the hardness of an indifferent God, the loneliness of a grey world and the staleness of our own selves. Death is no release. But we can't cease to exist unless God wills it. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
*sigh*
Ariel is right. Those glowing moments, the tasting and seeing that God is good, and his fruit sweet to the taste... And then being cast out to wander to search for it all our days. Why?
Like the White Witch in The Magician's Nephew, we taste that fruit and are never the same, but are wounded, knowing "our hearts are restless until they find rest in thee [God]" - and yet never finding that promised rest. What are we doing wrong? What should be be doing? If you have ever walked this path you will have tried everything, often persevering for months or years to no avail.
Cold comfort to think of Job, who was "tested" and in the end (after how long, a year? two years?) had everything restored to him fourfold.
See it's not like one is able to give up belief. You can't help yourself believing. God is just there. And it's not like you don't believe all the stuff you're supposed to believe about him, about him being love and merciful and so on, and the Incarnation etc. It's that none of that makes an impact in the relationship between the soul and God - and therein lies the grief and sorrow. And the bitterness of being human.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
However, being merely human myself, one of my other mottos is "If you haven't ever yelled at God, you don't really know God."
![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
YES! Amen and amen, jlg! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I love God (and I mean more than just warm fuzzy feelings) but I'm also pissed at him. I have every expectation He and I will continue hashing things out, albeit with much arm waving and raised voice from me.
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
What a wonderful idea for a thread!
I've been sitting here telling God, "see? see? It's NOT just me!"
JL, we're people in pain, crying out to God. We're not being self-indulgent. We've tried to hold onto faith during very tough times, and have hit a point where the packaged answers aren't good enough--not for us, not for the rest of Creation.
There's a good old movie called, "Sally & St. Anne". Sally is a tough Irish-American schoolgirl, devoted to St. Anne. (Mary's mom) At one point, she marches into church and yells at St. A's statue, because her prayer wasn't answered. A couple of nuns overhear. One says, "what impudence!" The other says, "what faith!"
Food for thought, JL.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
All who have this experience of walking in the greyness have my profound sympathy.
Ditto.
Although maybe I should clarify: "Let me cease to exist" was not meant literally.
Good. I was going to ask. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
I was reflecting: there's nowhere we can escape from God, nowhere he isn't. Except in non-existence. In some sense not to exist would be preferable to enduring the hardness of an indifferent God, the loneliness of a grey world and the staleness of our own selves. Death is no release. But we can't cease to exist unless God wills it.
Ah, yes. That lovely point of "can't live, can't die, don't know if there's anything if I die, just want the pain to stop."
Cold comfort to think of Job, who was "tested" and in the end (after how long, a year? two years?) had everything restored to him fourfold.
Indeed. Not to mention losing his kids, livestock, servants. What did any of them do wrong???
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by golden key:
What a wonderful idea for a thread!
I've been sitting here telling God, "see? see? It's NOT just me!"
JL, we're people in pain, crying out to God. We're not being self-indulgent. We've tried to hold onto faith during very tough times, and have hit a point where the packaged answers aren't good enough--not for us, not for the rest of Creation.
golden key--same here! same here! ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
I don't want to get all Kergymania in here, but isn't there a verse in Revelation about the souls of believers gathering at the throne of God and groaning for justice? Seems like God is prepared for this. Seems like his followers should be, too JL. If they want to help God out.I think openeing up like this gives up a wonderful opportunity to take comfort in each other.
And Erin--thanks for soaring in and championing the brokenhearted.(Forgive me, but-- ![[Love]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif) )
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And Erin--thanks for soaring in and championing the brokenhearted.(Forgive me, but-- )
Ditto! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
About a hundred years ago, I was in a Christian Goth band - we were all manic depressives and formed partially as an antidote to the likes of Graham Kendrick and Sir Cliff with their 'smile Jesus loves me' crap - Matt Black was my nom de guerre back then. Many of our lyrics were in the vein of the Psalms of Dereliction and, if I may be so bold as to quote from one of my songs, 'Deadbeat' (as I own the copyright ), that pretty much summed up how I was feeling then, and is still often true today:-
"Can't be bothered to live, can't make the effort to die/ Suicide's too hard, I just don't want to try/ Death is too final, there's no turning back/ But there has to be cure for what it is that I lack"
And, JL, take a hike
Yours in Christ
Matt
PS Many thanks to Erin and Hooker's Trick for helping me back into the saddle after some bastard scrote nicked my computer
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Matt Black eneded his last post with this gracious PS:
quote:
PS Many thanks to Erin and Hooker's Trick for helping me back into the saddle after some bastard scrote nicked my computer
......... seems like God was here all the time.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qestia:
Psalm 10 quote:
O Lord, why do you stand so far away?
Why do you hide when I need you most?
Proud and wicked people viciously oppress the poor
. . .
These wicked people are too proud to seek God
They seem to think that God is dead
Yet they succeed in everything they do
Psalm 74
quote:
(1) O God, why have you rejected us forever?
Why is your anger so intense against the sheep of your own pasture?
. . .
(9) We see no miraculous signs
as evidence you will save us
Psalm 77:7-9
quote:
Has the Lord rejected me forever?
Will he never again show me favor?
Is his unfailing love gone forever?
Have his promises permanently failed?
Has God forgotten to be kind?
Has he slammed the door on his compassion?
The above are from the "New Living Translation". I could go on.
Are the psalms petulant blasphemy, JL? I hope that statement is not worthy of you. It's certainly not worth me taking time to PM you.
In The Screwtape Letters CS Lewis says God's best beloved sometimes have to go through the deepest troughs. That what He likes best is when you look around and see no indication of His prescence, and still do His will. I have some idea from my time spent on the Ship how faithful the people who have posted above are. I'm sure God knows better than I.
Bloody Hell! Don't the Psalms agree with the sentiments on this thread, when they are very carefully snippeted! Try reading the whole Psalm, from these examples, you'll find the Psalmist did not stick with these feelings (which should be expressed, not buried) but moved on!
Look! Here's an important principle I have learned through my personal suffering, and may or not help you. Jesus said we'd know the truth and the truth will set us free.
If you're not free, then there's some falsehood in your mind. Usually, it comes in the form of half-truth. A good example of this, is 'we're all sinners.' If you just see yourself as a sinner, you'll act like one. We need to see ourselves as the images of God too. What did Jesus mean when he said, 'Ye are gods.' ???
Perhaps God wants us to realise that 'Life is Difficult', but He's given us the resources to deal with our problems and challenges? The problem with many churches, I believe, is that they foster a child mentality in people. Learned helplessness.
It's my conviction that God is far more interested in our personal and spiritual growth, than our comfort. Have you read that verse in Hebrews? 'God chastens and scourges every son he receives. If you're not chastened you're bastards, not sons.'
As far as God being impassionate is concerned, I believe that is total theological bullshit. It's a result of mixing Greek philosophy about the Absolute, with the God of the Bible.
If God is Love, how can He not care. That's apathy! Apathy is the opposite of love, not hate. A loving person will hate injustice for example, they won't lack in care.
If you're suffering, and it's getting you depressed, try changing your focus. Stop taking the blessings in your life that you take for granted, for granted. :-)
If you want to help the homeless, by the way, one thing you could do, is focus on what the person could become in the future, with your help. If you concentrate on the negatives, you'll end up giving up the job, what use is that?! I've worked with homeless young people.
As someone who suffers manic depression, an incurable illness, the last thing I would want if I was suffering depression, is someone sympathising with me. That's the least useful thing to do, next to 'pull your socks up!' attitudes. What I'd desire, is someone who could take the time and trouble to empathise, and then, to try and make things better. Sympathy just leaves a person depressed, and actually encourages the person to stay depressed.
I remember one occasion when a guy I knew well, who also suffered manic depression, was depressed and angry with God, because he'd been deluded with religious delusions, including the 'I am Jesus Christ' one. I talked with him for a bit, then I cracked, 'You're older than me, tell you what, you be the Father, I'll be the Son!' That got him out of his depression, once he'd stopped roaring with laughter. Note: it wouldn't work if I didn't suffer the same illness.
Did you know that your body posture changes with regard to what state of mind and emotions you are in? If you're depressd, usually you look down, your shoulders are slumped. Your physical state of posture changes into its depressed posture.
Thing is, it works the other way round too. If you decide to change your posture, to your posture when you're feeling really good ( you may have to remember a time when you felt really good, to find out your posture) the feelings follow.
Try this experiment: Stand up tall and erect. Look up towards the ceiling and put a huge silly grin on your face. Remember a time when you felt really good. Hold the position for 10 seconds, then without changing your posture, try and feel depressed. You won't be able to do it.
Look: You have a choice. You can either live your life in enslavement to your emotions, and circumstances, or you can gain control of your emotions. Emotional states such as depression result in a big black cloud in your mind, that filters out the solutions to your problems, or challenges. Blaming God, you know deep down, isn't the truth. I know you feel that way, and that's okay, and I practise venting my bad feelings to God, but I always know that the problem is with me, really. Perhaps some half-truth I've swallowed from some Christian leader. Thing is, that's my fault. It's my responsibilty to use my God-given mind to accept truth and reject error.
Some other things that can lead to depression are : diet and lack of exercise. If I feel like shit, I ask 'what am I eating?'. Certain foods will not supply all the vitamins and minerals you need to be well. Lack of physical activity doesn't help matters either. Don't complain to God IF you're on a junk diet, and you're living a life without exercise. Note: I'm not saying all depression is caused by these things, it's just a checklist from my own experience.
Perhaps God has already given you the answers to your problems, but you're not acting upon it?
Here's a verse that has helped me enormously when I've been suffering badly, even though I haven't seen at the time, how it could be true, I just about managed to have some faith that it may be true, and sought to learn from my experiences. 'All things work together for good, for those who love God.' You can either dismiss this promise, or use it to build up some hope, pray about it, challenge God about it, etc. I now know it is true. I didn't then.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Try this experiment: Stand up tall and erect. Look up towards the ceiling and put a huge silly grin on your face. Remember a time when you felt really good. Hold the position for 10 seconds, then without changing your posture, try and feel depressed. You won't be able to do it.
Really? Why can I do it so easily then?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
Erin,
Well, I know one poster has already trashed the concept, but I was brought up to offer up suffering and unite it to the Cross - the same Cross on which God made man was willing to undergo an agonising death. I think there's something profoundly sick about using personal suffering as a basis for petulant blasphemy.
I'm not Erin, but I think there's something profoundly sick about abusing another person's personal suffering as a basis for highlighting one's own shallow and crapulous ideas of piety and reverence.
As always JL demonstrates, with his usual lack of insight and understanding of humanity, what it is everyone else in the world should be doing (which incidentally just happens to be the thing he does, don't you know), but offers no help for those whose journey takes them in slightly different, and possibly darker, avenues.
Thankfully, God promises to be with us, even through those 'absent' times, and even when we fellow Christians, turn Job's comforter, churning out the same old predictable heap of toytown theology, with no authenticity of love and integrity at all. (It is the authenticity of our love which brings our theology to life, not our capacity to fling it nastily in the face of others.)
quote:
That said, perhaps I'm too sensitive for this thread. If anyone wants to take issue with anything I've said, PM me. I won't be reading any more posts here.
Perhaps he is, though he hides it well. I can't see anything resembling basic human sensitivity, let alone anything resembling a Christlike sensitivity in anything he's contributed to this thread so far.
As for not returning to see the effect of his posts? Well, of course he won't be back. We all know that people who flounce childishly out of rooms, in order to have the last word, never succomb to the temptation of creeping back, and putting an ear to the door, just to find out what the others are saying..... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
I can't think of a worse advertisement for the Roman Catholic Church than JL.
I'm not anti-Catholic at all, I do plenty of ecumenical work, and often I feel I'm very much at one with the Catholics there, but they are nothing like JL. Indeed, I passed copies of his posts to one of them, who laughed out loud and immediately said 'Opus Dei. Worth avoiding!'
I think there's a total lack of ability to empathise or look into any human dimension which doesn't coincide with his dogmatic outlook.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Probably because you're changing your posture without realising. I would have to be there and observe.
It's difficult trying to get this message across in a post. I showed Donna about this, just over a week ago. A few days later, she was depressed at work, things aren't too good at the moment. She remembered our conversation, and demonstration, noticed her posture was in the depressed position, then changed it. She's not been depressed since, because she does it every time she begins to feel depressed, and nips it in the bud.
You need to remember something in your past, or imagine something wonderful in your future, and FEEL wonderful. It's no use looking up at the ceiling in a half-hearted way. You gotta get excited, then do it.
Mind you, if I've given the correct instructions, and you've followed them properly - I cannot judge because I'm not there - you've changed yor emotional state from a good one, to a bad one, haven't you? You made the effort to get from a state of feeling good, to a state of feeling bad. How did you do it?
For me, I would have to make the effort to change my FOCUS on a happy memory and feeling, to a dark one, or something really negative about the world.
It can work the other way round too.
After a severe psychotic breakdown in 98, which left me without the ability to work, on meagre benefits, loss of accomodation in London, meaning I was trapped in Oldham, where I didn't want to be, I had suicidal thoughts from April to October every single day. One day, I decided to do it, I actually planned it. Fortunately, someone noticed I was looking down, and I broke down in tears. I got admitted to a psychiatric ward.
While there, I changed my focus. I accepted my worse-case scenario, that I could be in and out of psychiatric wards for the rest of my life. I then worked out what I would do, if that happened. I realised that if I never got to the point where I was well enough to work again, I could still contribute by doing voluntary work when able. I started counting the smallest blessings. My welfare may not be much, but at least I'm blessed with living in a country with a benefit system. I thought of people suffering the same things, and people worse off. I've never lacked for food, for example. By changing my focus, I got out of the suicidal thoughts, until last year.
Last year was the worst for me. I suffered severe depression for a lot of it. I don't want to go through that again. I'm determined to find out every way to defeat the beast for myself, and also for others suffering it.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Well, I think God is big enough to handle all the shouting in the world. So I'm not too bothered about people yelling at him. It does perturb me, though, when people get offended on God's behalf, because that way lies the Crusades, the Inquisition and any number of nasty bits in the history of Christendom.
Then again, I'm sure JL would regard me as blasphemous, too, because on more than one occasion I've told God to light a fire under it and fix whatever problem I'm facing. I've even done a bit of Teresa of Avila in there -- on more than one occasion I have let God know in no uncertain terms that it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out why people think he doesn't exist. I am not particularly nice, awestruck or reverential in my conversations with the Almighty. And it works for me, because there are times when I know his answer is "well, smart ass, knock yourself out, let's see you do a better job than me".
We need to be honest with God. By pretending everything is smiles and sunshine we are not only lying to God, but also we are insulting him. Do you really think he's so petty that he can't take some ranting and raving? That's a human limitation, not divine. It's YOUR problem if it bothers you, not God's.
I also have to say that in light of the background of one of the posts on this thread, the advice to "realize the problem lies with you" is not only the most cold-hearted, erroneous, steaming pile of corn-infested pigshit I've ever heard, but it is INCREDIBLY DAMAGING AS WELL. I'm just stunned.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Lou Poulain
Shipmate
# 1587
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Merseymike:
I can't think of a worse advertisement for the Roman Catholic Church than JL.
I'm not anti-Catholic at all, I do plenty of ecumenical work, and often I feel I'm very much at one with the Catholics there, but they are nothing like JL. Indeed, I passed copies of his posts to one of them, who laughed out loud and immediately said 'Opus Dei. Worth avoiding!'
I think there's a total lack of ability to empathise or look into any human dimension which doesn't coincide with his dogmatic outlook.
OTOH perhaps our young Jesuitical Lad just hasn't had enough life experience to KNOW how ambiguous things are. I can remember a time when I existed in a blissful state of certainty that all things are exactly as we imagine them to be. ("God is in His heaven, and all is right with the world") I know I was dogmatic, and I suspect I was pretty obnoxious myself at that age.
Methinks his posts reveal him to be a poster-child for the notion that religion is wasted on the young.
L
Posts: 526 | From: Sunnyvale CA USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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Qestia
Marshwiggle
# 717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
Bloody Hell! Don't the Psalms agree with the sentiments on this thread, when they are very carefully snippeted! Try reading the whole Psalm, from these examples, you'll find the Psalmist did not stick with these feelings (which should be expressed, not buried) but moved on!
But I think the people who've posted such senitments here are moving on--they continue to do God's work, to keep the covenant, so to speak. Like the Psalmist, they are calling on God to keep His promises. And if they haven't as overtly declared their faith and His greatness like the Psalmist (77:16) "When the Red Sea saw you, O God, its waters looked and trembled..." I do think it is implied.
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I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t an Aslan to lead it.
I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia.
Posts: 1213 | From: Boston | Registered: Jul 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
You need to remember something in your past, or imagine something wonderful in your future, and FEEL wonderful. It's no use looking up at the ceiling in a half-hearted way. You gotta get excited, then do it.
That would be the problem. I do not feel wonderful just by imagining anything
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Bloody hell...Erin, thats absolutely spot-on
I better go and lie down in a darkened room
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Christina Marie--
I respect you, and I'm glad you've found ways that work for you.
But many of us have been trying all kinds of things for years, and they just haven't been enough. The things that did work have worn very thin, or broken altogether.
Sometimes, accepting reality and trying to feel happy just aren't enough.
Erin--thanks for what you said.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
Thank you, Erin. I'm sure that some of us who wished to make the same comment were too fragile to do so!
Nunc's moving, excellent comments on this thread (in particular - I am not belittling those of others) show the paradox of a crisis of faith. One is faced with the confusion and pain of having an inherent act of faith coupled with the sense that God is far away - or wonders if one is deluded. It can lead to such conundrums as, "I don't even know if I believe in You - maybe I gave my life for an illusion - but I ask you to increase my faith." One feels pain at the very thought of a divine power that seems cruel, yet concurrently wishes to grow closer to God! One feels as if one hates him, but goes through the motions of prayer knowing He deserves praise.
Take it from one who knows - those with clinical depression are marvellous at maintaining the happy facade, all the more because one's acceptance usually depends on looking normal. But this darkness of faith is not depression. Though it is no comfort knowing this, deep within we sense that our senses can perceive no more - that there is a true God, whom we somehow wish to know. We sense he is (for example) punishing us, while at the same time believing that is not true.
Not everyone has the degree of discernment to assist one at this point - and indeed there are times when someone so able (perhaps a spiritual director, or a very close and spiritually minded friend who knows one very well) can point out errors in thinking - but this requires a true gift for this, and an ongoing relationship with the person who is in the agony. It is REAL , not something to be shrugged off with 'pull up your socks,' much less dismissed as an unreal condition that can be erased by exercises or diets!
Though I occasionally have the desire to discourage the (actually quite learned, but far from prudent or pastoral) Jesuitical Lad in his war for God by kicking him smartly in the arsenal, I was all the more irate about his posts on this thread because it reminded me so of a negative, Jansenistic, often cruel attitude to which I saw so many subjected in my RC past. Smug answers - turning people away, or silencing them, by convincing them that they were sinning if they admitted to pain - falling back on dogma or platitudes rather than realising there was a good reason God gave us two ears and only one mouth. At most, one could admit to sin - but, even then, most of the time it was a brief, muttered guilt for the legality of absolution, not a chance for healing interaction.
I myself often have to face the odd feeling of "I know I believe in You - but damned if I know why!" Deep down, for some reason, I do love God - but, considering the images of Him to which people are subjected, and the cruelty other Christians show to those in struggle or pain, I understand why people often want to run from Him.
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
God's not your errand boy. Read Job.
Sorry to rain on your sanctimonious parade but the point of Job is that God is inscrutable. The wicked prosper, shit happens to the good and God says precisely ZIP. Which sounds like a damn good reason for the kinds of comments found on this thread to me.
ChristinaMarie, you said:
quote:
Bloody Hell! Don't the Psalms agree with the sentiments on this thread, when they are very carefully snippeted! Try reading the whole Psalm, from these examples, you'll find the Psalmist did not stick with these feelings (which should be expressed, not buried) but moved on!
The Psalms are a mixture, like human lives and emotions. Some perk up at the end, but by no means all. Psalms 60, 74, 88 and 137 do not, for example.
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
God's not your errand boy. Read Job.
Oh! I forgot about this.
I have read Job. Do you remember what God said to Job's "friends", the ones who chastized him?
I once speculated in a Bible study that the story of Job was about someone being tested--but it wasn't just Job.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Tau
Shipmate
# 614
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Posted
Amen, Nunc. Amen, Erin.
(And ¤&^¨!¤% to Erin for saying all those things that I wanted to say. [Is there any sad, resigned, I-knew-it-all the-time 'smilie'??])
AW
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There is no fear in love.
Posts: 191 | From: over here | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
I add this not only for balance but also because it is a real part of how I am with God. I stress also that I empathize with those who, born of deep thoughts and feeling rail against Him. However whilst I hear what Erin is saying when she writes :
quote:
I am not particularly nice, awestruck or reverential in my conversations with the Almighty. And it works for me, because there are times when I know his answer is "well, smart ass, knock yourself out, let's see you do a better job than me".
My thoughts would want to pursue some of this further. In particular whilst I am not above calling God a asshat and questioning quite why He is doing things this way. I do in my general conversations try an remember that He is God, and I am not. He is actually deserving of all my reverence and a degree of awestruckedness. (niceness I am not so sure about). My point is simply that part of the reason I love God is that He is good enough for me to be honest with him, that He came as one of us and knows of my despair and because of thee two facts is patient and tolerant of my anger with Him. He is however God and there is a fine line between honest feelings honestly expressed and placing myself above my station.
Lastly, along the lines of the last part of the above quote, I would add that many of my darkest moments have been of my making and therefore railing against God seems inappropriate or due to the wickedness of others which, for me, seems to demand some other form of prayer.
I am sure most of us a savvy enough to not confuse God with the bloke down the road and treat them the same. However in a world in which “equality” is such a byword I shudder a little when sometimes, in my more angry moments I talk to God like He was my equal. I suppose part of why we rail against Him is because we know how much more He is and are frustrated by His seeming impotence. I suspect we would scream even more if he actually started to sort any of this stuff out.
“Why don’t you leave me alone and butt out of my life for once , go on just let me screw up a little bit and learn SOMEHTING the hard way, you are such a prissy, nice God, jeez………..”
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
Perhaps God wants us to realise that 'Life is Difficult', but He's given us the resources to deal with our problems and challenges? The problem with many churches, I believe, is that they foster a child mentality in people. Learned helplessness.
It's my conviction that God is far more interested in our personal and spiritual growth, than our comfort. Have you read that verse in Hebrews? 'God chastens and scourges every son he receives. If you're not chastened you're bastards, not sons.'
If you're suffering, and it's getting you depressed, try changing your focus. Stop taking the blessings in your life that you take for granted, for granted. :-)
If you want to help the homeless, by the way, one thing you could do, is focus on what the person could become in the future, with your help. If you concentrate on the negatives, you'll end up giving up the job, what use is that?! I've worked with homeless young people.
Look: You have a choice. You can either live your life in enslavement to your emotions, and Thing is, that's my fault. It's my responsibilty to use my God-given mind to accept truth and reject error.
Perhaps God has already given you the answers to your problems, but you're not acting upon it?
Has he now? Do you really believe God always gives us the resources to deal with our problems and challenges?
Try telling that to the mentally ill who aren't as blessed as you - who are still in the streets, or who don't have access to your nice medications and learned "focusing" exercises. Or to the ones for which these tactics don't work.
Try telling that to the sick and starving in third world countries. Or your own neighborhood, for that matter. To those in intractible physical pain with no access to morphine or a physician's care.
What if you have NO blessings in your life? Don't be so sure everyone has any to count.
And as far as having the homeless focus on what they can become in the future, I'll be sure to keep this in mind. Is this like when they're in heaven, or what?
I tend to agree quite strongly with Newman's Own's question:
quote:
And what in Hell were you talking about, with that 'consider the lilies of the field' business? Your children die in the street every day!
I have pondered this thorny issue some myself even when thinking of my sister. She should be a lily of the field, if the promise would be true for her to be looked after.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
Pyx_e, I don't think I was as clear as I could have been. I don't always tell God what a butthead he is, there are times when I literally fall to my knees in adoration and thanksgiving. However, when I feel like telling him off, I do. And he seems okay with that. At least, I haven't been hit by lightning (and in a bizarre twist, Erin Etheredge was fried to a crisp even though there wasn't a cloud in the sky when she left work this afternoon. Film at 11. ).
I think we only really need to worry about the so-called "blasphemers" when they start climbing clocktowers and picking off priests, ministers and churchgoers with a high-powered rifle. Until then, comfort people when they need comforting. That's all we've ever been told to do.
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by golden key:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And Erin--thanks for soaring in and championing the brokenhearted.(Forgive me, but-- )
Ditto!
Ditto, ditto, ditto!!!!
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
ChristinaMarie, we have never met. I do not know you, all I know are the bits of yourself that you have chosen to reveal on these boards. Therefore, based purely on what you have said on this thread I am:
* deeply sorry for all that you have suffered
* very glad that you have found a way through your problems
* astounded at your lack of sympathy with others who are still suffering
* feeling worse at being told there are such easy solutions to the problems I face
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
God isn't human. I am. He's ultimately unknowable. I love in the only ways I know. I gave him years of celibacy because for me that was the supreme commitment - remaining faithful in body as well as mind. God never asked me for it, it wasn't a requirement. I gave it willingly. And consequently I am alone and childless, and I often think how much happier I might have been to have had a normal family life. The ups and downs but the reassurance that someone at least was there for me.
I don't want sympathy. I just want a sign, an answer, some encouragement from the being I have centred my life around since I was 15. Even a little would do. But there is only silence. What am I to think?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
If you're not free, then there's some falsehood in your mind. Usually, it comes in the form of half-truth. A good example of this, is 'we're all sinners.' If you just see yourself as a sinner, you'll act like one. We need to see ourselves as the images of God too. What did Jesus mean when he said, 'Ye are gods.' ???
What a load of horseshit. We are all sinners. What did Jesus mean when he said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?
quote:
Perhaps God wants us to realise that 'Life is Difficult', but He's given us the resources to deal with our problems and challenges? The problem with many churches, I believe, is that they foster a child mentality in people. Learned helplessness.
As opposed to the helplessness that many people actually have? I guess the US should give up on the idea of spending lots of money on trying to do something about HIV/AIDS in Africa - we can just print up and hand out little leaflets that say "Life is hard - here's a coping exercise."
quote:
It's my conviction that God is far more interested in our personal and spiritual growth, than our comfort. Have you read that verse in Hebrews? 'God chastens and scourges every son he receives. If you're not chastened you're bastards, not sons.'
God's interested in our spiritual growth? Gee, I never would have guessed.
But you, idiot, are not God, and have no business spewing all this buck-up bullshit.
quote:
As far as God being impassionate is concerned, I believe that is total theological bullshit. It's a result of mixing Greek philosophy about the Absolute, with the God of the Bible.
If God is Love, how can He not care. That's apathy! Apathy is the opposite of love, not hate. A loving person will hate injustice for example, they won't lack in care.
God very well might care, but the experience of plenty of people is that the Almighty frequently doesn't seem to give a shit. No amount of philosophy or theology will change that.
quote:
If you're suffering, and it's getting you depressed, try changing your focus. Stop taking the blessings in your life that you take for granted, for granted. :-)
Oh, yeah. That'll work. Every time. Next time a street person rings the doorbell at the church I work for, I'll tell them what they really need is not a place to sleep and a shower and change of clothes and a meal and a job and healthcare, but a change in their focus. Next time my friend tells me he wishes AIDS would just kill him off instead of leaving him half-dead, I'll just tell him to change his focus.
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If you want to help the homeless, by the way, one thing you could do, is focus on what the person could become in the future, with your help. If you concentrate on the negatives, you'll end up giving up the job, what use is that?! I've worked with homeless young people.
Good for you. But not everyone has a future. Not everyone can lift the blackness long enough to see a future.
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As someone who suffers manic depression, an incurable illness, the last thing I would want if I was suffering depression, is someone sympathising with me. That's the least useful thing to do, next to 'pull your socks up!' attitudes. What I'd desire, is someone who could take the time and trouble to empathise, and then, to try and make things better. Sympathy just leaves a person depressed, and actually encourages the person to stay depressed.
When I was depressed, sympathy helped me a lot. So don't even think of offering your experience as universal.
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I remember one occasion when a guy I knew well, who also suffered manic depression, was depressed and angry with God, because he'd been deluded with religious delusions, including the 'I am Jesus Christ' one. I talked with him for a bit, then I cracked, 'You're older than me, tell you what, you be the Father, I'll be the Son!' That got him out of his depression, once he'd stopped roaring with laughter. Note: it wouldn't work if I didn't suffer the same illness.
What on earth has this got to do with anything?
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Did you know that your body posture changes with regard to what state of mind and emotions you are in? If you're depressd, usually you look down, your shoulders are slumped. Your physical state of posture changes into its depressed posture.
Thing is, it works the other way round too. If you decide to change your posture, to your posture when you're feeling really good ( you may have to remember a time when you felt really good, to find out your posture) the feelings follow.
Try this experiment: Stand up tall and erect. Look up towards the ceiling and put a huge silly grin on your face. Remember a time when you felt really good. Hold the position for 10 seconds, then without changing your posture, try and feel depressed. You won't be able to do it.
Another load of horseshit. What do you recommend for people who can't remember feeling really good? Some people have actually never felt really good, and some people feel so bad that previous good times seem like they happened to another person. And the idea that standing up straight is some kind of panacea for feeling bad is one of the more ridiculous things I've seen on these boards. Things like standing up straight and taking a brisk walk around the block work may do wonders for little cases of the blues, but they don't stand up to psychotherapy, drugs, and concrete help with the material circumstances of one's life when things truly suck.
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Look: You have a choice. You can either live your life in enslavement to your emotions, and circumstances, or you can gain control of your emotions. Emotional states such as depression result in a big black cloud in your mind, that filters out the solutions to your problems, or challenges. Blaming God, you know deep down, isn't the truth. I know you feel that way, and that's okay, and I practise venting my bad feelings to God, but I always know that the problem is with me, really. Perhaps some half-truth I've swallowed from some Christian leader. Thing is, that's my fault. It's my responsibilty to use my God-given mind to accept truth and reject error.
Has it never occurred to you that we can't always know the truth? That sometimes we must suffer in ignorance? And that is just not going to change? Jesuitical Lad brought up Job, and completely missed the point of the book of Job. Job wants to know why the hell his life sucks, and God says, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the universe?" In other words, you don't get to know what's going on. If you can deal well with that, fine, but stop trying to dress up other people's inability to do so with daisies.
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Some other things that can lead to depression are : diet and lack of exercise. If I feel like shit, I ask 'what am I eating?'. Certain foods will not supply all the vitamins and minerals you need to be well. Lack of physical activity doesn't help matters either. Don't complain to God IF you're on a junk diet, and you're living a life without exercise. Note: I'm not saying all depression is caused by these things, it's just a checklist from my own experience.
Perhaps God has already given you the answers to your problems, but you're not acting upon it?
Sometimes there just aren't answers. That's what this thread is all about.
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Here's a verse that has helped me enormously when I've been suffering badly, even though I haven't seen at the time, how it could be true, I just about managed to have some faith that it may be true, and sought to learn from my experiences. 'All things work together for good, for those who love God.' You can either dismiss this promise, or use it to build up some hope, pray about it, challenge God about it, etc. I now know it is true. I didn't then.
Well of course all things work together for good. But that good is all too frequently not the least bit apparent in our lives. And how did you manage to miss that challenging God about it is what folks are doing on this thread?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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