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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Bad parenting 101 (formerly Control your spoiled brat, please!)
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
This story has been raising eyebrows this side of the pond. For fifteen minutes, an entire plane was delayed because a three year old refused to sit in her seat. She was hitting her parents, who were being magnificently ineffective. They were all asked to leave the plane. The airline has since apologized, refunded their money, and offered them free tickets anywhere. So - there's the reward for having a kid who runs the show.
The parents said "kids are kids". It's hard enough raising three well-mannered children without having other parents basically acting like their kids are entitled to disrupt the lives of 115 people trying to go somewhere.
All children need to learn that there are times when they are not the center of the universe. That's most of the time, in fact. I'm sick to my death of entitled kids and their hopeless parents. Your kids don't need you for a friend. They need parents.
[changed thread title to accurately reflect my intention in ranting. Because I'm an admin and I can. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ]
[ 04. April 2007, 13:39: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Great - what does the airline do? Reward them. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Refunding their money *or* giving them tickets for the same destination at another time would have been sufficient.
They had their money refunded *and* they got free tickets.
~Waiting for avalanche of parent-coached toddler tantrums from ppl trying to exploit the system!~
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Pax Romana
Shipmate
# 4653
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Posted
The flight attendants did the right thing. Nobody has the right to hold up a plane with 115 people on it just because of a restless three-year-old.
It was not the fault of the child. The parents needed to exercise some control.
Maybe I am showing my age here, but I was NEVER allowed to disrupt things like that when I was little, and I was absolutely never allowed to hit my parents. And look how I turned out!
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Pax Romana
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I used to wake up at 4 A.M. and start sneezing, sometimes for five hours. I tried to find out what sort of allergy I had but finally came to the conclusion that it must be an allergy to consciousness.
James Thurber
Posts: 4598 | From: New York City | Registered: Jun 2003
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Frustrated Farmer
Shipmate
# 10782
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Posted
If someone who is not a parent, but was a child at one time might be allowed to comment...
If you want to have children, that is fine with me. HOWEVER, if you have children, please raise them and be a parent and not their best friend. I get very disgusted at children who do not receive effective discipline from their parents and then are let out into the streets. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
If I had been running the airline, I would have given the money back and informed them that we did not desire any of their patronage in the future.
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I used to know some of the answers, then they changed the questions.
Posts: 588 | From: Kansas, USA | Registered: Dec 2005
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
It's good to be reminded from time to time how many people hate children.
From the article, it sounds like the crisis and the delay were both caused by idiot cabin staff. Three year-olds throw tantrums. Even the ones who have strict parents. All the cabins staff I've ever seen deal with this remarkably common sort of situation de-dramatise and offer concrete tips for getting the kid into the seat. It sounds like on this occasion they shouted at the parents from the aisle while waving a large stopwatch in their faces. I hope the got career counselling and are now working somewhere that their hatred of children can be put to good use. An English restaurant for example.
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Izzybee
Shipmate
# 10931
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Posted
While I do want to give this family the benefit of the doubt (wondering if perhaps their child has a disability that makes things tougher on them, or makes it harder for the child to relate to bucking into a seat restraint), I have to say that as a mother of a 5 year old who flys fairly regularly, I wonder how they get her into a car seat when they're taking her anywhere. Flying in a plane is the exact same concept, but with the added freedom (certainly in my daughter's mind) that she doesn't have a five-point harness, just a tiny lap-belt that makes her feel very grown-up indeed.
Having read the story linked to above, it seems that the parents actually argued with the flight attendants about whether she should have to wear a seat belt or not, asking whether she could just sit on her mother's lap instead. That's one thing I've always tried not to do - argue with someone about my childs safety, or the procedures of any place we happen to be visiting, and especially while my daughter is watching. How does she grow up listening to people who are telling her what she needs to do if she feels that she can overrule any authority whenever she chooses? There are some times in life where negotiation is not appropriate, and that is generally when you're at the mercy of someone elses rules - in this case the FAA.
This really irritates me. I've always gone out of my way to make sure my daughter causes the least possible problems to anyone we happen to be on a plane with. It takes preparation, planning, and a whole lot of attention to my daughter and her behavior (and on one memorable occasion, some childrens benadryl). The result of this is that not only do my fellow passengers have as pleasant a journey is possible on a transatlantic coach flight, but my daughter has a better time too. Structure is a good thing.
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Hate filled bitch musings...
Posts: 1336 | From: Baltimore, MD | Registered: Jan 2006
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Izzybee:
The result of this is that not only do my fellow passengers have as pleasant a journey is possible on a transatlantic coach flight, but my daughter has a better time too. Structure is a good thing.
That's marvellous. Next time I see a kid screaming in agony because he has a cold and his ears won't clear properly during take-off, and all the other passengers are making soto voce comments about the parents, I'll make sure I tell those parents that their child needs more structure.
Plenty of adults become irrational when faced with the prospect of flying, but getting all three year-olds to behave rationally is a simple question of structure. Marvellous...
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
I agree that one child cannot be allowed to hold up a whole airplane full of people. However I do remember flying with a two year old and being offered an extender strap for my seat-belt so that she could sit on my lap during take-off and landing (the noisiest and so scariest part of the flight for children.) Is it so hard to work around these problems?
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Otter
Shipmate
# 12020
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Posted
Count me in on the "angry that the airline rewarded the family" group. I'm sure it was horrible to be removed from the plane, but I just can't feel that they deserve any more than an alternate flight home.
I am soooo glad that the Otter Pup is finally big enough that we don't automatically get stuck in the Kid Ghetto at restaurants, etc. I understand why it happens, since it's not obvious if we had one of the problem children or not. We've always he insisted the he behave like a civilized human being, and it really sucked being stuck in with the brats.
And what is it with parents taking kids to age-inappropriate places? (Not saying that smalls shouldn't be on airplanes, just a related rant!) What part of an R-rating made you think this was a good movie for a five-year-old, who is now crying in terror? Why are you dawdling over your late meal at a very fancy restaurant with an obviously bored/tired toddler?
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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data", YMMV, limited-time offer, IANAL, no purchase required, and the state of CA has found this substance to cause cancer in laboratory aminals
Posts: 1429 | From: Chicago, IL 'burbs | Registered: Nov 2006
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Otter:
Count me in on the "angry that the airline rewarded the family" group.
Has anyone here read the article?! The family turned down the "reward". But don't let that get in the way of a good rant...
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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R.D. Olivaw
Shipmate
# 9990
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Posted
At first when I saw the headline and the picture of the kid I thought that I had accidentally clicked The Onion. I travel with my kids (10 and 4) all of the time and I cannot imagine letting them act that way. Sit your butt down, put a sock in your pie hole and stop your belly aching. Now.
I know a child like the girl in question and she's like a feral mongoose. I had her over once and she bit my daughter and drew blood over a cookie. I'm not joking. You see kids like this all over the place running, screaming, snarling, spitting...hair like a fright wig, shoes on the wrong feet, barking orders like little generals. They're usually followed by a beleaguered, mealy mouthed mother handing out treats and praise and apologizing to those caught up in the whirlwind.
I realize it's impolite but I want to say, "Nut up! Woman! Your kid's a menace." Instead I whisper to my little darlings..."if you EVER act like that..."
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We are here to awaken from the illusion of our separateness -Thich Nhat Hanh
Posts: 496 | From: I'm a leaf on the wind | Registered: Aug 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
It's good to be reminded from time to time how many people hate children.
I don't hate children. I hate parents who can't be bothered to discipline their children.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
It's good to be reminded from time to time how many people hate children.
I love children, and you can go to Hell for suggesting that someone who thinks children deserve good parenting hates children. Oh, we're already there. Anyway, apparently you think the way to "love" children is not to teach them how to behave and to be considerate of others.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
That's marvellous. Next time I see a kid screaming in agony because he has a cold and his ears won't clear properly during take-off, and all the other passengers are making soto voce comments about the parents, I'll make sure I tell those parents that their child needs more structure.
In this case, there was no "agony" because the plane couldn't take off. I absolutely hate it when people expand the rant to include things not ranted about. The rant is aboutnot getting in your seat so the plane can take off. A sick kid, is a sick kid, and that's a totally different story. I say this as somebody who regularly has helped overwhelmed parents entertain kids on a plane and who has flown internationally with small children.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
The original rant had nothing to do with "structure" either. There are 101 reasons why the child may not have wanted to do up her seat belt. How was her last flying experience, for example (this was a return flight, right?) I'm writing this as someone who has also flown with children, but who doesn't think that every tantrum by anyone else's child has to be used to bolster my own parental insecurities.
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
The fact that they turned down the offer is irrelevant - it should never have been offered. There is no evidence from the account that there was any medical reason for the child to react adversely to being buckled in - I am sure the family would have mentioned it if there were. And I would guess that she had flown before, if we assume that that was how they got to the grandparents' in the first place. We only have the parents' account as to the way in which the cabin crew reacted.
What struck me was that the child was in a seat in front of the seats of the parents. Why was she not sitting alongside one of them and the other parent sitting separately if the only seats available were in twos? A lot of this situation might have been avoided if that were the case.
It is not necessarily child-hating to expect a child to be raised to behave in a way that keeps them safe, sociable and aware of behaviour boundaries. There is too much information missing from this news story to form a clear judgement on the situation. But it is an indictment of the way currently in society that nothing is ever our "fault" or "just one of those things" that the airline felt they had to over-compensate the family. Had my children behaved in that way and we had been asked to leave the plane, I would certainly not be questioning that decision, furious though I might be at the situation I then found myself in. But then every child I have cared for has found that when they undo their car seat, the car stops.. and that when they tantrum or misbehave when we're out, we soon find ourselves back at home... and even with the ADHD children and the very young children I have cared for, it hasn't taken them very long at all to catch on that actions have consequences, regardless of your age.
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
It's good to be reminded from time to time how many people hate children.
I love children, and you can go to Hell for suggesting that someone who thinks children deserve good parenting hates children. Oh, we're already there. Anyway, apparently you think the way to "love" children is not to teach them how to behave and to be considerate of others.
Ah, but at the tender age of three it is abusive to require anything of the little sweetums. Wait 'til they are in nursery school, better yet kindergarten, to get someone else to rein them in. Saves wear-and-tear on the poor, beleaguered parents.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
Clairvoyant or what? From another version of the story:
quote:
Her mom thinks it may have been because of the ear surgery Elly underwent earlier this month, and perhaps her memory of the discomfort and ear pressure she endured during the plane’s descent into Florida.
Recently post-operative child, anticipation of ear-ache following bad experience of outward flight. But you're right, Laura, the parents should just have beaten her senseless for the good of the other passengers.
[ 30. January 2007, 18:03: Message edited by: Melon ]
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
I do remember flying with a two year old and being offered an extender strap for my seat-belt so that she could sit on my lap during take-off and landing (the noisiest and so scariest part of the flight for children.) Is it so hard to work around these problems?
That's legal with a two-year-old, but not with a three-year-old. FAA rules, not within the discretion of the flight attendants.
It does sound as though part of the problem was that the child was not seated next to either parent, but was sitting on the row in front of them. One thing the flight attendant could have done (and perhaps should have, and maybe did) was asked for volunteers to swap seats so that the child was seated between her parents. That might have solved the problem with less drama for everyone.
Or maybe not. Without knowing more, it's really hard to say.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
But you're right, Laura, the parents should just have beaten her senseless for the good of the other passengers.
Wow, Melon. I had no idea you disliked me so much that you attribute that sort of sentiment to me. Believe it or not, I'm actually sort of hurt by that. I don't ever recall having any unpleasant interaction with you before, or ever saying anything that would make you think I advocated child abuse.
In any case, if the parents knew she'd had this sort of trauma before and after 15 minutes weren't getting anywhere, they should have said so and taken her off the plane. It doesn't matter why a three year old is delaying an entire plane-ful of people. It matters that the parents have the responsibility to solve the problem one way or another, and in this case if that was not just ex post facto justification on their part, they were tormenting her by keeping her on the plane.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Izzybee
Shipmate
# 10931
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
Clairvoyant or what? From another version of the story:
quote:
Her mom thinks it may have been because of the ear surgery Elly underwent earlier this month, and perhaps her memory of the discomfort and ear pressure she endured during the plane’s descent into Florida.
Recently post-operative child, anticipation of ear-ache following bad experience of outward flight. But you're right, Laura, the parents should just have beaten her senseless for the good of the other passengers.
So you're flying with a post-operative child why exactly? Ear pain sucks during take-off - I've had it myself (resulting in an inner ear condition) and had to control a then-two-year-old who had it - and she was in severe distress. It doesn't mean I let her hit me the next time we got on a plane. Thing is, you've bought tickets for a flight. You've agreed to abide by the rules and regulations of the flight and the FAA. If a cop pulls me over and my child isn't buckled in, I can't give him a story about how the kid doesn't like it.
There are rules. There are rules for a reason. If you're going to be flying, then you have to follow the rules set forth in the airplane. If your child has just had surgery, then move your plans or drive instead.
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Hate filled bitch musings...
Posts: 1336 | From: Baltimore, MD | Registered: Jan 2006
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
It does sound as though part of the problem was that the child was not seated next to either parent, but was sitting on the row in front of them. One thing the flight attendant could have done (and perhaps should have, and maybe did) was asked for volunteers to swap seats so that the child was seated between her parents. That might have solved the problem with less drama for everyone.
I didn't understand this, either. A three year old needs a parent next to him or her, or a flight can be really scary. I would have thought that a little shifting around might have been in order to deal with that, if that was the problem.
[eta: I should have titled this thread Bad Parenting or similar, and not said anything about the kid. A three year old's misbehavior is not the child's fault, but the parents' fault.]
[ 30. January 2007, 18:22: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Izzybee:
If a cop pulls me over and my child isn't buckled in, I can't give him a story about how the kid doesn't like it.
In fact, there was an awful accident lately nearly where a child had been badly injured because she just wouldn't stay in her child seat and so the parents just let her roam the car, the way we all did in the olden days. It's a safety issue, at least for cars, and in the air it certainly can be, too.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
[crossposted with Laura and others, so a bit of repetition here]
Melon, your peculiar confusion is that anyone's blaming the child. Whatever was making the kid cry doesn't really matter, in this case, because the long and short of it is that the parents didn't handle it right. If the child was crying for a good reason, the parents should helped her there if possible or taken her off the plane to help her elsewhere if necessary. If the child was cryign for a bad reason, the parents should have used appropriate* discipline to force the child to sit in her seat or have taken her off the plane to handle the situation somewhere else.
*note I said appropriate here, so don't pretend I said beat senseless here, that's just what Laura does when her kids won't eat their vegetables
[ 30. January 2007, 18:24: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
Apologies in advance for injecting some more inconvenient facts into everyone's invective, but this article says that the reason given for removing the family was that the child had assaulted another passenger (ie her mother ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) ) and that the attendant "helping" spent the whole time with a walky-talky pressed to her ear. The outward flight went fine (and the mother had lots of colouring books, which is structure, which is A Good Thing, right?)
And the company statement says
quote:
We do believe the situation could have been handled differently... We will use this case as a means to train our agents on dealing with this type of situation on our flights... While there are FAA regulations that mandate all passengers have to be securely fastened in their seat belts before a plane can depart, we need to work with our customers in situations like this to help them — and that is what we will focus on.
Idiot airline staff, which the carrier recognises, but, never mind, keep blaming the three year-old...
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
It's good to be reminded from time to time how many people hate children.
From the article, it sounds like the crisis and the delay were both caused by idiot cabin staff.
95% of the report is from the kid's family. It would sound like that.
quote:
Three year-olds throw tantrums. Even the ones who have strict parents. All the cabins staff I've ever seen deal with this remarkably common sort of situation de-dramatise and offer concrete tips for getting the kid into the seat. It sounds like on this occasion they shouted at the parents from the aisle while waving a large stopwatch in their faces.
You are taking what the brat's family is supposed to have said at face value. Were you on the plane?
Still it all ends happily: The Kulesza family won't travel AirTran again and AirTran won't have them aboard again.
[tangent] I used ridicule with the most tantrum prone toddler of ours. "Call that a tantrum? I've seen hamsters throw better tantrums than that" or similar. Raised a few eyebrows in Sainsbury's.
[ 30. January 2007, 18:30: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
If the child was crying for a good reason, the parents should helped her there if possible or taken her off the plane to help her elsewhere if necessary.
Hellooooooo? Maybe you can still wander around American airports as if they are shopping malls, but getting off a plane that is prepared for take-off in Europe would delay the plane for far longer than it would have taken to calm down the three year-old. AFAICT, if I want to blow up a plane in the US, I put the bomb in my suitcase, get onto the plane, get off the plane because I forgot to water my swiss cheese plant and retire to a suitable vantage point from which to watch the explosion. Is that really how it works?
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
You are taking what the brat's family is supposed to have said at face value. Were you on the plane?
No, but the airline appear to agree with me.
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
You are taking what the brat's family is supposed to have said at face value. Were you on the plane?
No, but the airline appear to agree with me.
The airline are doing what every big commercial organisation does: making itself look as sweet as possible.
As for the second article to which you provide a link : it has in big letters across the top "OPINION". Not news. Probably written by someone who think kids should rule the world.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The airline are doing what every big commercial organisation does: making itself look as sweet as possible.
I see. So the parents and the airline appear to agree on who was to blame, but The Truth Is Out There. So y'all have a theory that operates independently of any evidence?
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
Apologies in advance for injecting some more inconvenient facts into everyone's invective, ...
These "facts" all appear to come entirely from the family, not a wholly unbiased source, perhaps?
I think Sioni's point was that the airline is saying what you'd expect it to say.
[ 30. January 2007, 18:44: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
*note I said appropriate here, so don't pretend I said beat senseless here, that's just what Laura does when her kids won't eat their vegetables
Better be quiet. Melon appears ready to brand me an advocate of child abuse for suggesting that in order to fly, a child should be strapped into a seat even over her protests. I should hardly wish to be reported to the authorities for vegetable insistence.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
Ok, so you are discounting any evidence from the family AND anything that the company says? Does that leave anything on which to base the OP apart from naked prejudice?
I'm sure the 3 year-old hadn't packed a gas cylinder in her suitcase, which is what held up one flight I took recently. In terms of taking off on time, I'll go for a plane full of families any day, especially if it means we can jettison the childless couples who have mistaken the plane for the smoking room of the Ritz. On another recent flight, a group of singles insisted in sitting in the emergency exit seats and then fought a running battle with the stewards to avoid putting their luggage in a safe place. In that case, it wasn't just their safety, it was potentially the lives of everyone on the plane. But they weren't three years old, so they were cut more slack.
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
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Posted
On the whole, I agree with those who say that the parents should have a better grip on things. However, it is not easy to stem a major tantrum in a confined public place. I would need to know the family to judge if they were useless at parenting, or whether this was a very bad day in an unfortunate place.
Actually, the only bit of the story to amaze me was that the luggage was left on. Over here, if you're not on the plane, nor is your luggage - at least in theory. I've been on one flight where they were on the point of unloading the luggage to reove the bags of the no-shows, when the offending parties finally showed up (to ironic applause).
I did endure one hellish tantrum from SC on a bus once. He screamed the place down. I couldn't get off, as I was going to pick up 5 year old BC from a sports training, and the next bus wouldn't be for half an hour. The worst aspect of the tantrum was an old woman on the bus who kept up a running commentary about stupid and ineffective modern parents, and urging me to give him a good spanking. I eventually told her that he was behaving badly because he was two years old, tired and cross. "What's your excuse?" I asked. It's the only time I can remember being deliberately rude to another adult in public. Rude and a terrible parent, all in one hit! Go me!
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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
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Izzybee
Shipmate
# 10931
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
(and the mother had lots of colouring books, which is structure, which is A Good Thing, right?)
Coloring books is not structure. Letting your child know where their boundaries are is structure. Letting them know that there are rules that not even god-like-mommy-and-daddy can ignore, and that there are consequenses for not following those rules is structure.
In my mind, structure is preparing your child for the flight - talking to them about what to expect and how they should behave appropriately, making sure that they can easily follow your directions when the time comes. Structure involves doing what is possible to make your childs experience easier, but not at the expense of everyone around you.
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Hate filled bitch musings...
Posts: 1336 | From: Baltimore, MD | Registered: Jan 2006
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Melon appears ready to brand me an advocate of child abuse for suggesting that in order to fly, a child should be strapped into a seat even over her protests.
Have you ever tried this? The whole problem with passenger seat belts in the first place is that they don't secure passengers very well, and they secure three year-olds less securely than anyone else. That's why anything designed to secure a three year-old is three or five point.
To stop my kids from slipping out of a two-point seat belt when they were that age you'd have to have tightened it to a point where it cut grooves in their pelvis. If you have a parent each side and a third person to do up the belt (which means putting down the walky-talky), it might just work, otherwise the only solution is a negotiated solution.
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Melon
Ship's desserter
# 4038
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Izzybee:
In my mind, structure is preparing your child for the flight - talking to them about what to expect and how they should behave appropriately, making sure that they can easily follow your directions when the time comes.
The outward flight apparently went like a dream, so they obviously had all that taped.
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French Whine
Posts: 4177 | From: Cavaillon, France | Registered: Feb 2003
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Smudgie:
What struck me was that the child was in a seat in front of the seats of the parents. Why was she not sitting alongside one of them and the other parent sitting separately if the only seats available were in twos? A lot of this situation might have been avoided if that were the case.
Yes, I was thinking that myself. This was not right at all.
If the parents were sitting together, they screwed up bigtime, because one of them should have been sitting with the child.
If they ended up seperated, they could have pressed the handy call button and asked for assistance from staff.
If they knew the child had ear issues, they should have consulted their doctor and asked for advice on mitigation for flights (Benadryl, hard candies, etc.)
Where staff training comes in is that staff should have been able to do a quick assessment (in the absence of parents being unable to articulate this for themselves) and ask for volunteers to move seats. Once I was on a Southwest flight and the older child* seated next me away from family started crying. The flight attendant was on it like white on rice and I swapped seats with momma pretty fast to spare the plane an unhappy child.
* He looked to be about five. SWA allows parties travelling with under-5s (maybe under-6s) to pre-board precisely so the tinies can get settled properly, although if they were late at the gate, they were SOL. quote:
It is not necessarily child-hating to expect a child to be raised to behave in a way that keeps them safe, sociable and aware of behaviour boundaries. There is too much information missing from this news story to form a clear judgement on the situation.
Exactly.
The airline staff needs sensitivity training as well (and perhaps a lot more "empowerment" by the powers that be - SWA is generally a good experience because of that empowerment), but the parents dropped the ball.
Charlotte
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
If you have a parent each side and a third person to do up the belt (which means putting down the walky-talky), it might just work, otherwise the only solution is a negotiated solution.
I think that no three-year old should be without a parent on each side -- and if the airline is responsible for that lack in this situation, then I think they did screw up massively. With a parent right next to the child, it can work. But three year olds should not be "stranded" away from parents. I made the gate attendant reassign us all when the airline somehow forgot the seats we selected on booking, so that we could have at least one parent by each child under 13. A three year old alone is madness.
I can't figure out why, if there were two parents, the child wasn't next to at least one parent -- what's the deal with that? Airlines usually don't care if seats are swapped around.
[ 30. January 2007, 19:24: Message edited by: Laura ]
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Qestia
Marshwiggle
# 717
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Posted
I have little sympathy for these parents too. I usually have to manhandle my toddler to get him into his carseat, he screams like a banshee, for about a minute (feels like longer) till he realizes I'm serious and we will not be moving unless he is strapped in. So too with the little girl in the OP, the issue was not noise, but the fact she would not be belted in. Sometimes you have to force the little buggers to do what's best for them. It sucks rocks, especially if it involves them screaming in a public place, but it still must be done.
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
[tangent] I used ridicule with the most tantrum prone toddler of ours. "Call that a tantrum? I've seen hamsters throw better tantrums than that" or similar. Raised a few eyebrows in Sainsbury's.
When our little one is pitching a fit we often ask him "How's that working for you? Getting what you want yet? No?" I feel mean... but it sometimes works.
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I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t an Aslan to lead it.
I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia.
Posts: 1213 | From: Boston | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Melon, do you know many companies that like bad PR? Because I don't. No shit they're making nice. That's not an admission of fault. Ask any lawyer.
quote:
Hellooooooo? Maybe you can still wander around American airports as if they are shopping malls, but getting off a plane that is prepared for take-off in Europe would delay the plane for far longer than it would have taken to calm down the three year-old.
Because OHMIGOD! What if they had to be put onto another plane, that would be the ENDOFDEWORLD! Oh wait, that happenned anway after much misbehavior on the parents' parts (and, if the airline refused to reseat, on the flight attendant's parts.)
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Was the kid actually seated in front of the parents, or was she just sitting (on the floor) in front of the parents when they were asked to leave the plane?
quote:
Originally posted by Melon:
If you have a parent each side and a third person to do up the belt (which means putting down the walky-talky), it might just work, otherwise the only solution is a negotiated solution.
One of the problems around here is that saying or doing anything to another person's child is likely to get you smacked.
When I was a kid, it was generally accepted that if anyone bigger than you told you to quit misbehaving, it was a good idea to listen. That meant that I could tell the kid in the grocery store pulling the boxes off the shelf to knock it off, and the parent would back me up, and usually be thankful for the help.
These days, there's a good chance that they'll yell at me for talking to their kid or interfering with their parenting or calling them a bad parent when I was just trying to help them out a bit.
On the plus ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) side it fuels the reality TV industry, since I think there are now half a dozen nanny and wife swap programs about people trying to get their kids back under control.
The airline no doubt has a policy about how to handle unruly passengers. It realizes that the policy can't be used with kids the same way it is with adults. They have yet to develop a policy for handling unruly kids, but will soon. And in the meantime they're trying to make everyone happy.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qestia:
When our little one is pitching a fit we often ask him "How's that working for you? Getting what you want yet? No?" I feel mean... but it sometimes works.
I've seen my sister burst out laughing at her sons tantrums. Well as she said if he wanted her to believe it was for real, checking he was safely on the rug first (i.e. had a safe landing space if he wanted to lie down and bang his feet on the floor) was not the way to go.
It of course worked, but the laughter has to be genuine.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Hellooooooo? Maybe you can still wander around American airports as if they are shopping malls, but getting off a plane that is prepared for take-off in Europe would delay the plane for far longer than it would have taken to calm down the three year-old.
Because OHMIGOD! What if they had to be put onto another plane, that would be the ENDOFDEWORLD! Oh wait, that happenned anway after much misbehavior on the parents' parts (and, if the airline refused to reseat, on the flight attendant's parts.)
No, what Melon means is that in Europe, removing someone from a flight would delay the whole flight for a very long time. Because your luggage cannot ever travel without you, so if someone leaves a flight, all the luggage in the hold has to be unloaded so that the departing passenger's luggage can be found and removed. It would also be common practice for all hand-luggage to be unloaded from the cabin lockers and 'claimed' by the owners, so that the whole plane can be then checked for any left-over items. This is standard anti-terrorism protocol that has been in place since the '70s.
Getting off a plane is a big deal here, and will cause a major delay to everyone involved. It might even have a knock-on effect on subsequent flights in small airports. It would almost certainly be quicker and less disruptive to calm the child somehow.
This is not, in my experience, the case in the US, where it seems you can just wander off leaving whatever you like on the plane.
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
Iole Nui and Melon - that's actually the way it's supposed to happen in the Excited Snakes as well. My entire flight was boggled on Dec 23 when, after sitting on tarmac for 20 minutes waiting for our luggage to be located, we learned that it had gone on the previous flight without us. It is the only time I've ever had Bad Baggage Fu with Southwest - I suspect that due to all the delays that we had that day none of the handlers were really sure what flights happened when.
I'll tag that one on the airline, no problem.
Charlotte
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Was the kid actually seated in front of the parents, or was she just sitting (on the floor) in front of the parents when they were asked to leave the plane?
I took it to mean on the floor in front of the parent's seat(s). It also said she was crawling under the seats, which seems to support this view.
I believe it is an FAA regulation for a kid below a certain age to be sat next to a parent (or other designated guardian adult).
However, they do not require two adults - which would be tough on single parents, obviously. Moreover, airlines absolutely will not guarantee you 3 seats together under any circumstances.
Ditto what Melon said about airline seat belts and small kids. However, I assume there had to be a five-point car seat somewhere in the picture. Presumably it had been checked with the baggage for the drive/ride home from the airport? Had they had it on the plane, they could have forced the child in. Still would have screamed bloody murder till Tuesday, but would have been restrained.
Long and short of it - even the best behaved toddlers throw tantrums and when they are in the thick of it you can work them through it or forcibly restrain them / beat them. I'm sure it made a great difference in the GDP by getting those folks off that plane and taking off 10 minutes sooner. Seems like everyone concerned could have done a better job in the moment, but it is far from clear this is any reflection on the child's upbringing.
As a discount carrier based in Atlanta, Air Tran flies a lot of tourists to Florida (think Disney!), so forcing a family from a plane is a public relations nightmare of the first order.
Air Tran was once ValueJet, for whatever that is worth.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
I'm with Melon. Manners are so bourgeois. Why should parents compel their children to adhere to rules that are clearly below them? Rules are for the unwashed masses and their offspring...those destined for servile positions and brown nosing. Our children are free spirits and are above the arbitrary rules of "the man." Who are you to expect that my child will sit in her seat on an airplane? Those might be the rules for others, but my child and I are above the rules. I should be given adequate time to "comfort" her...even if that takes an hour. If you miss your connection, meeting, whatever, it is of no importance to me. And those awful flight attendants, they act as if they have something better to do than to help me deal with little angel and convince her to sit down. Well we're not sitting down! We're standing up for our "rights". Why should children be expected to act in a civil manner in a restaurant? I've paid my money and with my meal comes the right for my child to express himself freely and not be dictated to by staff (they are staff, after all) fellow patrons, or management unless they want to apologize to little Zoe. Of course, do not kick my seat on the plane, but find it adorable when my child does it to yours...after all he is an energetic little guy...what do you expect? When she climbs under the seat and hits me and screams upon being asked to fasten her seat belt she is just showing the kind of spirit that you draconian hum-drums want to suck out of that fabulous fantasy called "childhood." She will not conform...we resist! She is the most special little child in the world and you cannot see that you'll be getting a call from our lawyer.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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