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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: US election aftermath
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
I can't help feeling that the Democratic Party engineered its own defeat with arrogance. If they had run Bernie Sanders rather than someone whose brand they knew was toxic, I wonder how many of the protest votes that went Trump's way would have stayed with the Democrats.
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The problem was not Clinton's "toxic" brand. The problem was sexism.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The problem was not Clinton's "toxic" brand. The problem was sexism.
How so? Did Mrs Clinton's womanhood cause her, for example, to get a private e-mail server?
[ 09. November 2016, 07:37: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
No more than Colin Powell's manhood caused him to have one.
She had a private email server because the State Dept had crappy IT, because her staff didn't really give it a lot of thought, and because, like her opponent, she is not computer literate.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The problem was not Clinton's "toxic" brand. The problem was sexism.
How so? Did Mrs Clinton's womanhood cause her, for example, to get a private e-mail server?
The most over-rated issue in the election. Given that her predecessor (Powell, under Bush) used a private email account as well. Sure, not his own server, so more at the mercy of the security of a third party. At the very least, equally ill-advised, but as someone who has used his own phone for work purposes (reverse solution to same issue), also understood...
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Posts: 2405 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That's the Bush-Clinton establishment stuffed by the working class.
Clinton LOST.
She never won the working class, not just the lower either.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Shipmates I'm going to close this thread temporarily and allow analysis of the result to take place in the main thread. I believe in the value of an aftermath thread but that's about "what happens now?" rather than "why did that happen then?"
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512
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Posted
So with commentators linking this to movements like Brexit, rise in nationalism etc - to what extent is this the logical outcome of years of hearing about (and facing) terrorism?
The rallying call around nationalism, fear of minorities, immigrants etc.... It just feels like maybe this is the black and white view of the world the factions wanted to see.
Which isn't easy. We want security. Is there a move to deciding the way to do that is to close the world off more?
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Posts: 2405 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Purgatory Hosts have discussed and are in agreement that this thread should now be re-opened for the purpose of discussing the possible consequences of the result of the 2016 election. The main thread will be kept open purely for postmortem analysis of the result e.g. the reason things turned out that way, or the pollsters got it wrong, or the demographics etc.
And you also now have two threads in Hell for venting. So you can be cross, look backwards, or look forwards! Please try to do those things in the appropriate places.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy in the main thread:
Possibly worth saying that it looks like the Republicans now have a majority in the House of Representatives and the Senate.
Which is a bit of a problem as (presumably) the Republican president will be able to get through anything that appeals to their base. Particularly undoing the climate change promises.
And here is a starter on one of the major forward consequences of the results of the Presidential Election and the Elections for Senate and House.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Does that mean that the USA is now in effect a one-party state?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
The questions that have been rattling about for me are about our response, as Christians and as Churches.
If this election result is, like Brexit, partly a consequence of fear of "other", how do we address that fear?
There will be millions of Christians who see this result as an answer to prayer - and millions who cannot reconcile their faith with the words and actions of the new President. How do we find common ground in a Gospel that we read so differently?
There are many frightened people in the USA and UK today as a result of democratic decisions that seem to say that they are unwelcome, unwanted or unimportant in the lives of the nation where they live. How do we respond to their fears?
What do I say on Sunday morning? What do I do on Monday?
anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
To quote myself from Hell quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Firenze said quote:
I see a Zeitgeist. A spirit of fear, retreat and isolationism
I think the 'Kingdom of God' response to that is embodying a spirit of grace, openness and connection.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
One of the aspects of Trump's acceptance speech (before he started to ramble) which surprised me was his "New Deal"-sounding promises on rebuilding infrastructure as a means of putting people back to work. Plus some open-trade-sounding words about global trading.
Warm words, but how are they to be paid for? Made me wonder what his first budget will look like.
Also, my gut feel is that he's going to tell the NATO states that they are going to have to put their own hands deeper in their pockets to pay for collective defence.
Looks like the UK stock market is treading water for the time being. I thought the uncertainty looking forward might give the FTSE a kicking - but not yet. European Markets look as though they've moved down about 1% so far. Early days.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Amen Eutychus.
anne, we stand with them, we comfort them, we defend them, we
... proclaim good news to the poor.
... proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
... set at liberty those who are oppressed,
... proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour
[ 09. November 2016, 10:34: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
One of the aspects of Trump's acceptance speech (before he started to ramble) which surprised me was his "New Deal"-sounding promises on rebuilding infrastructure as a means of putting people back to work. Plus some open-trade-sounding words about global trading.
Warm words, but how are they to be paid for? Made me wonder what his first budget will look like.
Also, my gut feel is that he's going to tell the NATO states that they are going to have to put their own hands deeper in their pockets to pay for collective defence.
Looks like the UK stock market is treading water for the time being. I thought the uncertainty looking forward might give the FTSE a kicking - but not yet. European Markets look as though they've moved down about 1% so far. Early days.
FWIW I think the markets are uncertain, and doing the best they can with the statements he's made (none of which I think should be taken as gospel but what else can they do?)
I agree NATO is uncertain, but there again we've (in the UK) swapped a president who said a post-Brexit UK would be at the back of the queue with one who's said it's going to be at the front. You'd expect in the short term the UK to suffer less than some other markets.
However, given we're in the unusual circumstances of hoping that an elected politician isn't going to keep many of his promises, I'd say it's uncertain waters for everyone.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
What do I need to do to live through this? That's my question about the aftermath.
For much of the world outside of the US, I suspect there will be a return to using the coping strategies we all employed to survive mentally during the Cold War.
For myself, if I contemplated what was openly discussed as a possibility, I would not be able to function. My wife is half Estonian. The threat to that region is well laid out and real. Under Trump, Russia can and probably will find a way to walk back into the Baltics. The ramifications of that, to my thinking, are...staggering.
If I allowed contemplation and awareness of that threat to become the focus of my thoughts, along with the other situations that have been discussed, daily living would be just too difficult.
Much like the Cold War threat would make you freeze if you let it.
Coping means compartmentalizing the personal world from the big picture & a return to focusing on the personally doable and attainable when it comes to social justice issues. It also means focusing on taking situations in hand and asking, "So, what are we going to do?" Not "What are we going to think?"
I purged about 1/3 of my twitter feed this morning in an effort to focus on things I enjoy and on places where I can make a difference. I am taking mental steps to move away from big picture discussions of grand schemes. I will also be rethinking where to attempt to make a difference.
That is how I and many others coped before under the threat of imminent nuclear destruction. We focused on what we could do personally, even if within a collective of ourselves.
I don't look upon this as a good thing, just a necessary thing.
So today I go back to work. And I ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
And I suspect that is how much of the world will be gauging the aftermath - what do I need to do to live through this.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Well, we did it! We snatched the title of World's Stupidest Polity from Britain again! You thought you had us, with Brexit, but we topped you!
And now:
Obamacare is history. If you have no insurance, plan not to get sick. If you do, prayer is your only resort.
The Supreme Court is done, for our generation. It is now a partisan perk.
Gerrymandering and voter intimidation are now the rule.
Sorry refugees, you might want to go elsewhere and save on the energy of being deported again.
Latino and Muslim neighbors, I'm sorry for you.
Women, and persons of ethnicity, let's hunker down and hope that no amendments to the Constitution get rammed through.
But there is one indubitable up side. Alex Baldwin now has a steady gig for the next four years. I am so looking forward to this!
[ 09. November 2016, 11:02: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
So what does happen with the Supreme Court? The new president gets to appoint the casting vote justice with a nod through the Senate?
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arse
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
For those of us who wanted a female leader of the free world, we've got one. Her name is Angela Merkel.
Anyway, it behooves one to be gracious at such moments and to congratulate the winner of this election. So well done Mr Putin.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Il faut cultiver notre jardin*
A retreat into quietism is probably necessary in the short term, just to recuperate and recharge.
But there has to be a return to activism at some point, because sooner or later the outworkings of the change will have to be opposed (how long do we think before internment camps for Muslims?) or we have to deal with the frustrations of those who find their orange messiah has not delivered what they hoped.
*We must cultivate our garden.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
![[Smile]](smile.gif) she's the next domino to fall.
Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I think the Germans learned the hard way that right-wing nationalism causes more problems than it solves, in the long run.
Incidentally, you appear to have left Blacks and Hispanics out of your analysis of the working class.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Exit Poll
Look at the breakdown of the voters by income. Look at which proportion of which income groups voted for Clinton. She *won* among the two lowest categories. So can we all stop pretending this was a working class revolt and start using more salient terms for Trump's appeal like 'racism' and 'misogyny'.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.
What has happened to the working class? They where the trades unionists. They were the Labour movement. When did they become the agents of the far right?
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
So what does happen with the Supreme Court? The new president gets to appoint the casting vote justice with a nod through the Senate?
Yup. The senate will continue to ignore Obama's nomination, and President Trump will nominate a young Scalia, who will probably be confirmed on a largely partisan vote. Recall that he published his list of candidates, and every one has consistently published anti-abortion, anti-LGBT rights and anti-Federal regulation opinions.
Half the country is now going to be desperately hoping that RBG and the rest of the "old gang" on the supreme court hang on for another four years.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
As you know I'm talking the majority working class. White. Men and their dependent women. For now.
As for Germany: Alternative für Deutschland.
Liberals have to INCLUDE such.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.
What has happened to the working class? They where the trades unionists. They were the Labour movement. When did they become the agents of the far right?
This morning. As on June 24th.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Never again will the political class assume the working class doesn't matter.
What has happened to the working class? They where the trades unionists. They were the Labour movement. When did they become the agents of the far right?
In this election, at least, they didn't.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
As you know I'm talking the majority working class. White. Men and their dependent women. For now.
As for Germany: Alternative für Deutschland.
Liberals have to INCLUDE such.
Not if the price is pandering to people's racism, we don't.
The AfD won't beat Merkel. The more likely scenario is Le Pen winning in France. If that happens you can kiss the Western Alliance goodbye.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Callan
I think you are right about the demographics. This thread is about effects going forward. Personally I think Trump's rhetoric has created for him various hostages to fortune. To what extent will he need to appease his angry, disaffected, misogynistic, xenophobic supporters? Particularly if costs and/or legal constraints get in the way.
For example, "lock her up". Now that the FBI have confirmed that there was no criminality found in the further emails, how can further legal questions be pursued. Will he appoint Rudi Giuliano as Attorney General? Will Comey get sacked?
[ 09. November 2016, 12:06: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I think he will deploy the 'Brexit Shuffle', you know the sort of thing, did we put £350m for the NHS on a bus? Our bad, anyway, we won, get over it.
I think the economic stuff will be harder. Most of the Republicans in the Senate and in Congress are free-marketeers. So spending a shed load of money on infrastructure will come up against a bunch of people who sincerely think that any government spending not on the police or military is basically a waste of money. And stopping illegal immigration from a country with which you share a land border and which is signally poorer than your own is not going to be a walk in the park. But when they turn against him it will be because he didn't deliver military greatness and prosperity, not because he decides not to impeach Clinton.
Assuming, of course, that he doesn't miscalculate and blow us all up or decides after a set of bad mid term results that voting is a bit over rated and that he can manage without democratic legitimacy. Neither of which can be ruled out entirely.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
The more likely scenario is Le Pen winning in France.
Tell me about it
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
An excellent article on what Trump's win says about misogyny.
"Trump’s win has trained a spotlight on the extent of the misogyny that runs through America. Importantly, however, it also reveals just how far women’s rights have come; how much has been achieved; how threatened the denizens of a fading America feel. Trump’s victory is the last gasp of a desperate white patriarchy. Clinton may have lost the election but that doesn’t mean women lost on Wednesday morning. Our fight isn’t over.'
I couldn't agree more with Arwa Mahdawi.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
An excellent article on what Trump's win says about misogyny.
"Trump’s win has trained a spotlight on the extent of the misogyny that runs through America. Importantly, however, it also reveals just how far women’s rights have come; how much has been achieved; how threatened the denizens of a fading America feel. Trump’s victory is the last gasp of a desperate white patriarchy. Clinton may have lost the election but that doesn’t mean women lost on Wednesday morning. Our fight isn’t over.'
I couldn't agree more with Arwa Mahdawi.
I'm not sure about the last gasp, but I think a backlash in this way is almost inevitable. For example, Obama is quite a cultured even intellectual guy, and inevitably some people are going to want something quite different, even opposite.
Clinton could not be that, as she was almost an extension of Obama, but then who would expect the shadow to come roaring from the caves in this manner? Well, yes, it does do that. History goes in zig-zags. Still, commiserations to all my friends in the US. Damn Brexit, damn Trump. A period of darkness now, but the opposition will grow.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And that's the true answer. At last, there is actually something that is indeed Obama's fault. This is all a reaction to his excellent presidency.
Oh, and I forgot to add. Those brave women who stepped up and testified about pussy grabbing? Canada would be wise. The cases pending against the TFO? Smoke. We will never ever see his tax returns, you bet.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And that's the true answer. At last, there is actually something that is indeed Obama's fault. This is all a reaction to his excellent presidency.
Oh, and I forgot to add. Those brave women who stepped up and testified about pussy grabbing? Canada would be wise. The cases pending against the TFO? Smoke. We will never ever see his tax returns, you bet.
It's certainly not Obama's fault. But I think politics often proceed via reactions to previous periods, I'm not sure if there have been periods of 12 years with Presidents of the same party? Seems unlikely.
Psychologically, the shadow gets antsy, and wants to emerge. Reason leads to unreason. I don't think anyone has ever found a solution to this, have they, except to oppose unreason?
[ 09. November 2016, 13:05: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Looking at the demographics provides significant evidence of mysogyny. But there is an age differential at work. Rather as there is in attitudes towards LGBT and other minorities.
The aftermath will undoubtedly provide a check, a setback, to the aspirations to do away with glass ceilings - but I am hoping this will be a kind of dying gasp. I'm 73 years old. I may belong to the generation of those for whom supremacy and security go together, but these are not my values. Never have been. The source of my security is elsewhere.
For those supporters of his, the cycle with Donald Trump will be wild enthusiasm, confusion, disillusionment. Let's see how long it takes for those with supremacy attitudes to get disappointed by what they will see as "lack of progress".
And let us not give up. I'm not giving up on the values I hold most dear.
[ 09. November 2016, 13:11: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Exit Poll
Look at the breakdown of the voters by income. Look at which proportion of which income groups voted for Clinton. She *won* among the two lowest categories. So can we all stop pretending this was a working class revolt and start using more salient terms for Trump's appeal like 'racism' and 'misogyny'.
The problem with your analysis is that there isn't one "working class" that can be defined solely by income. As I said a few days ago, there are stark economic differences between people who on a simple "how much do you earn" analysis appear the same.
So yes, Clinton won 53% of the vote from people earning less than $30k. But look at some of the other measures - she only won 34% of people in small cities or rural areas. She only won 15% of those who think the nation's economy is poor, and they will presumably have judged that on their own experiences. And she only won 19% of people who think their family's financial position is worse today.
There is a difference between poor people who have seen their previous prosperity disappear and poor people who have always been thus and/or who can perceive improvements to their lot. It seems to me that that division falls primarily along the metropolitan/rural axis, and that that more than anything else is why it also falls along racial lines (the majority of ethnic minority citizens tend to live in big cities).
The metropolitan elites have ignored "flyover country" for too long, and I believe that is the main reason why the people of that area have rejected them. The same could be said of many formerly industrial areas of the UK. The establishment right wing doesn't care, and the establishment left wing is focused on increasing prosperity amongst ethnic minority populations. Meanwhile, there's a sizable population of poor white people who can see that neither side of the establishment cares about them. Can you really blame them if that leads them to vote for a non-establishment candidate, be it Trump or UKIP?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
For those supporters of his, the cycle with Donald Trump will be wild enthusiasm, confusion, disillusionment. Let's see how long it takes for those with supremacy attitudes to get disappointed by what they will see as "lack of progress". And let us not give up. I'm not giving up on the values I hold most dear.
Exactly. We've survived Republican presidents before: Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1, Bush 2 (barely). We'll survive this one too. We just have to be careful.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not sure if there have been periods of 12 years with Presidents of the same party? Seems unlikely.
Reagan-Reagan-Bush was 12 years.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
A friend with more foreign-policy chops points out to me that nuclear war in the Middle East is far more likely now, since we are going to trash various treaties and peace plans.
Global warming? Get to know and love it. Safety and environment regulations, goodbye.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Welcome to The Dead Zone.
There can't be a nuclear war until somebody apart from Israel has (400) nuclear weapons. She would never use first ... unless overrun. But don't worry, Trump will never abandon her.
Iran will have to develop them and be saved from eating grass like Pakistan and worms like North Korea, by Russia. Israel won't be able to do a thing about that and neither will America. NATO won't exist. So yes, the Baltic, Georgia are lost.
Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain will all develop nuclear weapons. America will make a fortune out of that. Israel and Pakistan too. I'm sure China and India will pile in. That's capitalism.
So yes, once that djinn is out of Pandora's box there will be no illusion of the illusion of hope. Any time after 2030 one will go off somewhere for a start. The ultimate Sunni car bomb in a Shia enclave.
Nobody will breathe out that day for sure!
Against a backdrop of inexorable global warming therefore drought, famine, hypercanes, flooding.
Anyone remember the Man of Sin?
[ 09. November 2016, 13:48: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not sure if there have been periods of 12 years with Presidents of the same party? Seems unlikely.
Reagan-Reagan-Bush was 12 years.
Fair enough. I would think that for some people Clinton felt like more of the same. Of course, some would like that, and some would not. It's the electoral cycle, but it's also a psychological one, we get tired of the same tune, see the extreme reaction to Blair now. His erstwhile delightful manner now irks, or brings people out in a rash.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush-Obama-Obama-Clinton would have been the same from the lower white working class perspective.
[ 09. November 2016, 13:53: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush-Obama-Obama-Clinton would have been the same from the lower white working class perspective.
Don't agree. That is too monolithic. It might have been the same for some of them, and not for others. To find out, you need some very fine-grained empirical research.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
For those supporters of his, the cycle with Donald Trump will be wild enthusiasm, confusion, disillusionment. Let's see how long it takes for those with supremacy attitudes to get disappointed by what they will see as "lack of progress". And let us not give up. I'm not giving up on the values I hold most dear.
Exactly. We've survived Republican presidents before: Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1, Bush 2 (barely). We'll survive this one too. We just have to be careful.
The problem is that all three of them, even Bush jr., were competent. And look at the world after them. Trump can do more damage in four than they did in twelve.
A man who cannot handle twitter will now set policy for the most powerful and influential country in the world.
I have said I do not respect the electorate, but I am deeply saddened to be correct. Turkey, USSR 2.0 Brett and this idiot. The world is so much less safe right now and that is not rhetoric.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Oh dear.
It will be interesting to see just how many of DT's campaign pledges are implemented and where they take the USA. Maybe we should have a thread on this?
In the meantime, here are some of mine.
WALL won't be built for the simple reason that its unfeasible and no one will work on a project with no guarantee of payment. Caveat this assumes of course that the good people of Mexico don't choose to build one themselves to keep out a flood of people wanting to escape a Trump-led USA.
TAX cuts for the wealthy will happen thus giving everyone a chance to see (again) that so-called trickle-down economics don't work. It would be even better if they worked out why (rich already have money so save, whereas poor would spend) but I'm not holding my breath.
NATO I expect DT to look at getting co-operation deals with strategic countries (Turks, UK, Japan, perhaps Canada) which the military would like to be able to use for operations. Once they've done that, withdrawal could well happen.
UN much more combative approach and likely to pull out of deals to do with climate change, etc.
As someone (mis)quoted on the TV coverage last night Fasten your seatbelts; its going to be a bumpy ride. Of course, the wonderful Bette Davis was only speaking of one night, not four years ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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