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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: US election aftermath
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I think Mr. Spicer needs to go back to playing the Easter Bunny.
Maybe not. There looks to be some trouble there, too.
If they manage to pull this off and attract a few hundred kids, I'm sure the PG will brag about how it was the bigliest Easter Egg Roll ever and he had many more attendees than Obama ever did.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
[qb] ISTM it's *plausible/possible* that Spicer was simply thinking in terms of dropping chemical weapons in the way that Assad dropped them. He may simply have compartmentalized the concentration camps in a different compartment.
Yes, I thought that.
I could well imagine doing that. Once you stop and think, it's obvious (and you can see what a stupid and hurtful thing it is to say).
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
ISTM it's *plausible/possible* that Spicer was simply thinking in terms of dropping chemical weapons in the way that Assad dropped them. He may simply have compartmentalized the concentration camps in a different compartment.
OTOH, he may be in way over his head, and not able to think well on his feet (if so, then totally in the wrong job)...or he might be a jerk.
If the former is true, it means the latter is as well.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
And "I forgot the thing Hitler is most infamous for during my Hitler comparison" is not a particularly sympathetic explanation.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Well, when I first heard a little bit about this, last night, it was just "Spicer said Hitler never used chemical weapons, like Assad did". I started trying to think if I knew anything about that, and decided I didn't.
I didn't make the connection to the concentration camps. I take the Holocaust very seriously. But I was specifically thinking in terms of chemical bombs (?). With time to think, I probably would've made the connection, provided I changed the category from "chemical weapons that creep used" to "unspeakable things that creep did".
So it's plausible to me that Spicer compartmentalized. Whether or not he did, I don't know.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
[qb] ISTM it's *plausible/possible* that Spicer was simply thinking in terms of dropping chemical weapons in the way that Assad dropped them. He may simply have compartmentalized the concentration camps in a different compartment.
Yes, I thought that.
I could well imagine doing that. Once you stop and think, it's obvious (and you can see what a stupid and hurtful thing it is to say).
Stopping and thinking is not something either Spicer or 45 have often been accused of.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
If Spicer was compartamentalizing, then his statement is kind of like saying "Charles Manson was horrible; even the Son Of Sam didn't murder people in their own homes", and then defending yourself by saying you were emphasizing the "...in their own homes part". But of course, there really isn't any moral difference between venues when it comes to killing people.
In any case, Spicer broke one of the two cardinal rules of political discission: DON'T MENTION HITLER. It usually does not end well, especially so when your point is to minimize(even relatively) the severity of his crimes.
(The other rule is "Always assume the microphone is on. No sympathy for anyone who gets in trouble for things said in front of a visible mike, even if he had every reason to assume it was off.)
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
By any standards, the Hitler reference was an appalling error.
But I think Spicer's problem is that he is forced to compartmentalise all the time. There is the Trump version of reality and there is reality.
I don't think Spicer is dumb. I think anyone doing the job for Trump must have to live with high levels of cognitive dissonance.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
In any case, Spicer broke one of the two cardinal rules of political discission: DON'T MENTION HITLER. It usually does not end well, especially so when your point is to minimize (even relatively) the severity of his crimes.
Or, as Charlie Pierce put it:
quote:
I don't know what they teach folks in Flack School but, surely, don't talk about Hitler from behind a podium with a presidential seal on it has to be no worse than Lesson Number Three. My guess is that's been an iron rule for White House press secretaries since V-E Day.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
ISTM it's *plausible/possible* that Spicer was simply thinking in terms of dropping chemical weapons in the way that Assad dropped them. He may simply have compartmentalized the concentration camps in a different compartment.
OTOH, he may be in way over his head, and not able to think well on his feet (if so, then totally in the wrong job)...or he might be a jerk.
All of which wouldn't be so bad if the excessive narcissism of this administration didn't disallow any possible admission of making a mistake. As always, the attempts to explain away a careless misstatement made things far worse than the initial gaffe (saying Hitler didn't target "his own people" seems to marginalize German Jews in almost precisely the same way Hitler himself did). Were Spicer instead capable of doing the very normal human thing the rest of us do each & every day: "oops-- I misspoke. My apologies" (I just sent almost precisely that email moments ago)-- it would be a nonevent, a blip on the radar.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Looks like Trump and his lackeys have forgotten that no gun is more dangerous than an unloaded one.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
By any standards, the Hitler reference was an appalling error.
But I think Spicer's problem is that he is forced to compartmentalise all the time. There is the Trump version of reality and there is reality.
I don't think Spicer is dumb. I think anyone doing the job for Trump must have to live with high levels of cognitive dissonance.
A BA in government and a recent MA in national security and strategic studies. Not exactly Ivy League or as good as any fictional press secretary as in West Wing or Designated Survivor.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Sioni Sais--
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Looks like Trump and his lackeys have forgotten that no gun is more dangerous than an unloaded one.
Would you explain this, please? Thx.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Sioni Sais--
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Looks like Trump and his lackeys have forgotten that no gun is more dangerous than an unloaded one.
Would you explain this, please? Thx.
Gun safety #101. If you treat a gun like it's unloaded it instantly becomes more dangerous, because you underrate its potential for harm.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I am getting mightily fed up with the expression "his own people". I know it is supposed to multiply the horror because they are supposed to be in his care, but it implies ownership, as if they were slaves.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I am getting mightily fed up with the expression "his own people". I know it is supposed to multiply the horror because they are supposed to be in his care, but it implies ownership, as if they were slaves.
Yes, me too, for the same reason. It's one of those pat phrases that politicians think sound profound and appealing so they repeat it ad nauseam (cf "hard-working families" in the UK. Grrrr).
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It also implies that there are others (Jews? Gypsies? Black people?) who do not fit into the 'ours' category. That's the first step on the long slippery slope that we all know well.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It also implies that there are others (Jews? Gypsies? Black people?) who do not fit into the 'ours' category. That's the first step on the long slippery slope that we all know well.
Exactly.
It's irony in the extreme that an administration so keen to 'other' groups of people used another such regime as an example.
Trumpism is already on that slippery slope ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It also implies that there are others (Jews? Gypsies? Black people?) who do not fit into the 'ours' category. That's the first step on the long slippery slope that we all know well.
Yes. The fact that Spicer used almost precisely the same rhetorical device as Hitler to explain away his Holocaust gaffe demonstrates exactly what is so chilling about this administration.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
We went downtown and marched in the Tax March last weekend, and it was very hot. Today we went down for the March For Science, which was rainy and cold. Here's a web article about the March with a very brief interview and photograph of myself, about two thirds of the way down.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We went downtown and marched in the Tax March last weekend, and it was very hot. Today we went down for the March For Science, which was rainy and cold. Here's a web article about the March with a very brief interview and photograph of myself, about two thirds of the way down.
That's great Brenda - and an excellent sign which deserves to go viral.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I did the March for Science here in NYC today. It was awesome.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I have made more than a dozen signs now for various marches, and I've put them all up on my Pinterest page so that people can borrow them at need. The ones from yesterday I released into the wild, handing them off to friends to carry in the actual march for me. (I had theater tickets in the pm, purchased last year.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Thanks! That song had passed me by, which I regret after hearing it.
You're right about the potential power of folk music. Some of the 60s songs have, rightly, become iconic, immortal, for the truths they reveal and proclaim.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
OMG! A photo of my signs is in the New York Times!
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The Great Negotiator caves.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
yeah, I dunno about the whole listening thing. I think Trump is more into the scapegoat and denial thing.
Do you think the Russian inquiry has run its course in the media? That would be a pity. I was really enjoying it. I did hear that Sally Yates was going to testify as to why Flynn got canned.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Do you think the Russian inquiry has run its course in the media?
Not really. Every couple of days there's something new. As this tweet notes, various Trump-friendly media outlets seem to be preparing an Iran-Contra style defense. ("The president never knew what was going on under his nose.")
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
"Exclusive: Trump says he thought being president would be easier than his old life" (Yahoo).
Among other things, he's still fussing about the election. And I heard that he spends most of his evenings alone, and can't really cope with that.
And Thursday's Stephen Colbert show monologue said, among other things, "maybe we can put a letter of resignation in front of him to sign". There was a film clip of T saying that "sometimes I look at what I'm signing".
IME, Stephen makes coping at least possible, for me.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Colbert is wonderful. I loathe the format, so just watch clips of him on you tube. His Trent Brockman is more memorable to me than the guy he's parodying. It is independently funny.
Incidentally, we have a right wing nutjob radio host called Alan Jones. Is it something about the name, or are there just so many of the bastards that it becomes a percentages thing?
I saw a great Trump impersonator on The Daily Show the other day. He has really nailed the impression, so much so that he was getting heckled by some people at the Tax Rally where he appeared.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Here's an interesting analysis on the effect of voter ID laws (summary, longer version). The basic conclusion is that states with strict voter ID laws saw their voter participation fall while states without such laws saw their voter participation increase. The effect seems to preferentially effect the poor, the young, and particularly African-Americans.
The analysis estimates that the effect of voter ID laws in Wisconsin were enough to shift the outcome of that state in the 2016 presidential election. (Flipping Wisconsin would not have been enough to reverse the result of the election as a whole.) Given that suppressing the vote in this way seems to work for them, you can see why Republicans are so enthusiastic about such laws.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
This may be a question of context, but from this side of the pond voter ID looks eminently sensible in terms of defending against the accusation of voter fraud.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This may be a question of context, but from this side of the pond voter ID looks eminently sensible in terms of defending against the accusation of voter fraud.
I think it can be fine in a relatively equal society where the ID itself is free, and relatively easy to get even if one lives a peripatetic lifestyle.
The problem is the rest of the context, where it isn't free, where polling stations are few and far between (especially in minority areas), and where this means that queues are such that it takes a disproportionate amount of the day of a time-poor individual.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This may be a question of context, but from this side of the pond voter ID looks eminently sensible in terms of defending against the accusation of voter fraud.
In theory, yes. But a lot of it hinges on application. The U.S. has no national identity cards for its citizens. Most don't even possess passports. So the patchwork system of proof-of-identity that's grown up over the years has a lot of holes in it and most states where this kind of law has been enacted have been . . . let's say "suspiciously particular" about what forms of identity verification they'll accept as valid (e.g. state-issued hunting licenses or gun permits, but not state-issued student IDs). Others are more obvious about it, like Alabama passing a voter ID law and then attempting to close down most of the DMVs in the predominantly black parts of the state. The idea is similar to the newer tactics of abortion opponents; not an outright ban but throwing up enough bureaucratic hurdles it shaves off enough votes at the margin to tip things the 'right' way. If you have to make a 100 mile round trip to get an ID there's going to be a certain percentage of people who either can't or won't make the trip.
And the other issue is that this seems to be a solution in search of a problem. In-person voter impersonation fraud is vanishingly rare in the U.S. The most common form of election fraud in the U.S. (not particularly common, but a lot more common than in-person voter impersonation) is shenanigans by whoever controls the ballot box (or modern electronic equivalent) and counts the votes. This type of election fraud would not be prevented by voter ID laws. The next most common (but a lot less common than ballot-box tampering) is remote voter impersonation, usually where someone fills out a mail-in ballot in someone else's name. Since mail-in ballots usually go through the ordinary U.S. Post, which does not require ID, this type of election fraud would also not be prevented by voter ID laws. The least common type of election fraud in the U.S. (as best we can gauge these things) is in-person voter impersonation, where someone shows up at a polling station and fraudulently claims to be someone else.
In other words, a lot more legislative energy and bureaucratic fuss is being expended than can be reasonably explained by the scope of the problem of letting a senior citizen identify themselves with an expired driver's license (because they don't drive any more).
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The problem is the rest of the context, where it isn't free, where polling stations are few and far between (especially in minority areas), and where this means that queues are such that it takes a disproportionate amount of the day of a time-poor individual.
This is the other problem with voter ID laws; adding an extra 30-60 seconds per voter for an ID check to gum up the works of an already under-staffed voting process. A lot of American voters don't have an extra 3 hours to take out of their day to wait in line. Having to arrange a baby sitter and time off of work to vote is going to shave off another few percentage points of eligible voters.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
It seems to me that the location/density of polling stations is a separate issue to voter ID.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It seems to me that the location/density of polling stations is a separate issue to voter ID.
Not necessarily. Adding an additional pointless check to the voting process will cause a slight delay in voting times for well-staffed polling stations serving relatively few voters, but polling stations expected to serve more will end up with significant back-ups. The point of deliberately setting up multiple bureaucratic hurdles isn't that any one of them is insurmountable, but that they accumulate into a true disaster in the right circumstances.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Each hurdle in the series is a separate issue. On the face of it, organising access to polling stations is less contentious than voter ID, and enlisting more volunteers less contentious than either.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
In the US voter ID and registration has historically been a way to keep persons of color from voting. It just sounds better to denounce voter fraud than it is to say that black people shouldn't be allowed at the polls.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Each hurdle in the series is a separate issue. On the face of it, organising access to polling stations is less contentious than voter ID, and enlisting more volunteers less contentious than either.
Given that voter ID laws are about "access to polling stations", I don't see how they're separate issues. You might just as well argue that DMV closures have nothing to do with voter ID requirements either.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I have no doubt that this variation on gerrymandering is alive and well, but access to polling stations in terms of being within a reasonable distance of one and not queue for an inordinate amount of time at it is a separate (although related) question to that of what if any form of ID one is required to produce.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I have no doubt that this variation on gerrymandering is alive and well, but access to polling stations in terms of being within a reasonable distance of one and not queue for an inordinate amount of time at it is a separate (although related) question to that of what if any form of ID one is required to produce.
"Just go get your ID" is the same bullshit to people who do not have a car or time and/or in areas which public transport is infrequent or absent.
The intent is to disenfranchise minorities.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
OK. I guess this is one of those times when as a European I forget that the USA is essentially a loose coalition of independent states, but it still blows my mind that for a national election, the same procedures do not apply everywhere.
A cursory search suggests that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 21 quote:
"The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret ballot or by equivalent free voting procedures."
is, apparently, reflected in the 15th, 19th, 23rd, 24th, and 26th Amendments to the US Constitution (not that I have looked to see precisely what those say).
What's the mileage in bringing a case on the grounds of non-universal, unequal suffrage up through the courts?
[ 09. May 2017, 21:26: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
This is the other problem with voter ID laws; adding an extra 30-60 seconds per voter for an ID check to gum up the works of an already under-staffed voting process. A lot of American voters don't have an extra 3 hours to take out of their day to wait in line. Having to arrange a baby sitter and time off of work to vote is going to shave off another few percentage points of eligible voters.
Which is why, for us, Saturday voting is an essential part of the process and has been for well over 100 years. In those days, few people worked on Saturdays - farmers milked, people drove trains, shops were open - but factory and office workers and their wives* could attend the booths. One would stay outside with the children while the other voted, then swap roles.
*That's how it largely was then.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What's the mileage in bringing a case on the grounds of non-universal, unequal suffrage up through the courts?
Some, apparently.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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