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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Miscellaneous questions of a liturgical nature
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
11 January, 2013 20:45
Here is a brand new thread for all those random queries that are burning for an answer.
Remember that the Ecclesiantics Dictionary is there for vocabulary-related matters and The Tatler is there for queries on vestments, liturgical impedimenta and the like.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
12 January, 2013 20:01
So I know we discussed the matter of "resting in peace and rising in glory" a while back, but just quickly:
When did the departed begin to "Rise in Glory" ?
When I was a young Anglican - they merely Rested in Peace as far as I remember... but of late one never hears one without the other.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
12 January, 2013 23:26
Dunno the history, but here that response is used during Eastertide to Ascension.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
13 January, 2013 04:13
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
So I know we discussed the matter of "resting in peace and rising in glory" a while back, but just quickly:
When did the departed begin to "Rise in Glory" ?
When I was a young Anglican - they merely Rested in Peace as far as I remember... but of late one never hears one without the other.
In some online fora I frequent, there are folks who pop up like that John 3:16 guy at sporting events with the rainbow wig on, as soon as anyone prays that souls may "rest in peace." "And rise in glory!"
I've heard of a priest rebutting that with, "Souls don't rise." But that leaves me behind theologically, as I don't know enough to agree or disagree with that.
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
13 January, 2013 07:10
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
. . .
When did the departed begin to "Rise in Glory" ?
When I was a young Anglican - they merely Rested in Peace as far as I remember... but of late one never hears one without the other.
I think we pinned it down to when Robert Runcie was Principal of Cuddesdon, although I am told they don't rise in glory there anymore.
I don't think they rise in glory in any official Liturgical text.
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
13 January, 2013 08:21
DFoing a little bit of research, may I draw honourable shipmates attention to this discussion, especially the contributions of one Derek Jay of Bristol (who acnknwoledged in 2009 the contribution of the Ship):
http://www.gssonline.org.uk/forum_rise_in_glory.htm
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
13 January, 2013 09:38
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
DFoing a little bit of research, may I draw honourable shipmates attention to this discussion, especially the contributions of one Derek Jay of Bristol (who acnknwoledged in 2009 the contribution of the Ship):
http://www.gssonline.org.uk/forum_rise_in_glory.htm
The earlier discussion was about the use of 'and rise in glory' as a response to "May the souls of the faithful departed rest in peace" - popular in vestry prayers.
The nearest liturgical example (quoted by Derek Jay) seems to be from a recent Methodist source.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
13 January, 2013 14:06
Not an answer but
In 2007 there was this thread, in 2009 you started this thread Corvo and the most recent thread arguing about whether souls rose from 2012.
As you asked here and did not start a new thread, I presume that these threads would hold the answer you want.
Jengie
[ 13. January 2013, 13:07: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
13 January, 2013 17:43
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Not an answer but
In 2007 there was this thread, in 2009 you started this thread Corvo and the most recent thread arguing about whether souls rose from 2012.
As you asked here and did not start a new thread, I presume that these threads would hold the answer you want.
Jengie
But I didn't start this thread!
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
13 January, 2013 19:58
I started it and now regret that I did! Thanks, shipmates for the preferences!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
13 January, 2013 22:16
Something that troubles me every time that yet again I encounter argument about this.
Whether the couplet is traditional or recent, which would you prefer, that you rest in peace and rise in glory, or that you don't?
Assuming that most of us would prefer to receive these blessings rather than to forgo them, wouldn't you likewise rather people pray for them for you than that they don't. In which case, why withhold the same prayer for others?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
13 January, 2013 22:47
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
. . .
When did the departed begin to "Rise in Glory" ?
When I was a young Anglican - they merely Rested in Peace as far as I remember... but of late one never hears one without the other.
I think we pinned it down to when Robert Runcie was Principal of Cuddesdon, although I am told they don't rise in glory there anymore.
I don't think they rise in glory in any official Liturgical text.
In the epiphany prayers in CWDP the following petition is included:
That all who with Christ have entered the shadow of death
Many rest in peace and rise in glory
Not the traditional vestry prayer, but rest in peace and rise in glory
My random liturgical question is, is it just me or is the absolution in BCP evensong impossible to parse satisfactorily? There is no main clause!
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
13 January, 2013 23:07
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
In the epiphany prayers in CWDP the following petition is included:
That all who with Christ have entered the shadow of death
Many rest in peace and rise in glory
Not the traditional vestry prayer, but rest in peace and rise in glory
But it doesn't say souls, does it? That seems to be the point of contention.
It seems sensible to me. Separating soul and body is near to heresy IMHO.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
14 January, 2013 02:20
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
My random liturgical question is, is it just me or is the absolution in BCP evensong impossible to parse satisfactorily? There is no main clause!
The BCP 1662 absolution at Evensong:
ALMIGHTY God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who desireth not the death of a sinner, but rather that he may turn from his wickedness and live; and hath given power and commandment to his Ministers, to declare and pronounce to his people, being penitent, the Absolution and Remission of their sins: He pardoneth and absolveth all them that truly repent and unfeignedly believe his holy Gospel. Wherefore let us beseech him to grant us true repentance and his Holy Spirit, that those things may please him which we do at this present, and that the rest of our life hereafter may be pure and holy; so that at the last we may come to his eternal joy; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
My take on this: Everything before the colon is a definition of "He" that immediately follows the colon. So the main clause starts with "He pardoneth and absolveth..."
Reduced to essentials, the prayer says "God absolves all who truly repent and believe the Gospel. So let us ask him to give us this true repentance and the Holy Spirit, etc."
The problem I'd have with it is not its grammatical structure but the fact that it's really just telling the congregation what to ask God for. Same problem I have with "For what we are about to receive, may the Lord make us truly thankful." It's not actually being thankful, but a wish that God will make us truly thankful. Similarly, the absolution doesn't really absolve or declare absolution; it just tells us who God absolves and calls us to ask God for the things required to be one of those whom God absolves.
The Lutherans leave no doubts in their absolutions that say, "As a called and ordained minister of God and by his authority, I declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen!"
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
14 January, 2013 11:26
I've never understood the ruling that says this prayer must only be said by an ordained priest. If it was an absolution, yes, but it ain't.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
14 January, 2013 11:31
I always cross myself at 'pardoneth' just to be on the safe side!
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
14 January, 2013 14:03
MOTR and High Church Anglican priests in my experience make the sign of the cross over the congregation when pronouncing the Office absolution words "pardoneth and absolveth...", suggesting an understanding that they are, in fact, pronouncing a general absolution. The American BCP (both '79 and '28 IIRC) provide an alternative short and direct absolution that may be used instead (indeed, '28 may have a rubric saying that the absolution from Holy Communion may be pronounced instead by a priest or bishop).
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
14 January, 2013 14:12
Indeed. On those rare occasions I've been at a BCP Office that includes the Confession and Absolution (principally, though not quite exclusively, Choral Evensong at Durham Cathedral), that is where the crossing has been done.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
14 January, 2013 22:11
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
My random liturgical question is, is it just me or is the absolution in BCP evensong impossible to parse satisfactorily? There is no main clause!
The BCP 1662 absolution at Evensong:
ALMIGHTY God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who desireth not the death of a sinner, but rather that he may turn from his wickedness and live; and hath given power and commandment to his Ministers, to declare and pronounce to his people, being penitent, the Absolution and Remission of their sins: He pardoneth and absolveth all them that truly repent and unfeignedly believe his holy Gospel. Wherefore let us beseech him to grant us true repentance and his Holy Spirit, that those things may please him which we do at this present, and that the rest of our life hereafter may be pure and holy; so that at the last we may come to his eternal joy; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
My take on this: Everything before the colon is a definition of "He" that immediately follows the colon. So the main clause starts with "He pardoneth and absolveth..."
Reduced to essentials, the prayer says "God absolves all who truly repent and believe the Gospel. So let us ask him to give us this true repentance and the Holy Spirit, etc."
But we've switched persons. It starts with a vocative so second person, but then switches to third. Compare
quote:
Almighty God, unto whom all hearts are open, all desires known, and from whom no secrets are hid cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the inspiration of thy holy spirit that we may perfectly love thee and worthily magnify thy holy name through Jesus Christ our Lord
Vocative + relative clause describing God
Main clause (cleanse)
How (by)
So that
Through Jesus
Amen.
The BCP absolution starts the same, with vocative + relative clause, but then (I think to avoid pronouncing absolution in a 'Roman' sense) switches to the third person.
People talk about the beauty of the language but this prayer just offends my inner linguist!
Carys
[ 14. January 2013, 21:13: Message edited by: Carys ]
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
14 January, 2013 22:21
No, it's not vocative, and it's not second person. The verb endings ("desireth," "hath given") are clearly third-person. "Almighty God" is not an address to God himself, but the subject of those two verbs, as well as "pardoneth and absolveth". I don't see a single second-person verb in the entire absolution.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
14 January, 2013 22:25
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
The Lutherans leave no doubts in their absolutions that say, "As a called and ordained minister of God and by his authority, I declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen!"
And even that is not as clear as some Lutherans desire. The Missouri Synod and conservative offshoot bodies often go in for a very clear "I forgive you all your sins" sort of thing. Of course, the offshoots typically like a mention that one isn't forgiven if yadda yadda.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
14 January, 2013 22:39
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
No, it's not vocative, and it's not second person. The verb endings ("desireth," "hath given") are clearly third-person. "Almighty God" is not an address to God himself, but the subject of those two verbs, as well as "pardoneth and absolveth". I don't see a single second-person verb in the entire absolution.
That's also how I read it.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
14 January, 2013 22:55
Interesting. 'Almighty God who' makes me expect vocative and collect form, but you're right, in trad language the second singular verb forms are used in the relative clause (cf Almighty God who makest us glad with the yearly remembrance of the birth of thy Son) so if it were vocative it would be 'who desirest not ... and hast given...'. But, it's not the subject of the 'He pardoneth and absolveth' because you've got a subject pronoun there. So it is left dislocation perhaps with information about the subject fronted, and then a thingy* pronoun in the main clause because the subclauses got so deep. Though in fact it would read the same if the relative clause was turned into a main clause, so we had 'Almighty God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, desireth not the death of a sinner... and hath given to his ministers ... . He pardoneth and absolveth ....
How often though do we use Almighty God non-vocatively at the start of a sentence? I would expect a definite article I think 'The Almighty God ... desireth not...'.
Then, we have the request to us to beseech him for true repentence. And then it ends 'through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen' thus turning it into a prayer which is probably why I've always heard the opening words as a vocative.
I'm happier now. It's been bugging me since I started hearing it regularly, but only while hearing it and asking the question has made me think about it at a point when it's ok to be thinking about the grammar which is distracting when it's being said in a service!
The heart of my problem is that it isn't actually an absolution which would be something like
quote:
Almighty God, ..., who desireth not the death of a sinner... and hast given to his ministers...., pardon and absolve you and grant you true repentance...
Carys
*I really should know the word but it's escaping me at the moment
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
14 January, 2013 23:02
Hmm. An interesting exercise in parsing. Q/. Who is the subject of the 3sg verbs?
ALMIGHTY God, (the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ), who desireth not the death of a sinner, but rather that he may turn from his wickedness and live;
OR
ALMIGHTY God, (the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who desireth not the death of a sinner, but rather that he may turn from his wickedness and live);
The Father or the Son? Or deliberately ambiguous?
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
14 January, 2013 23:04
The second would be a bit heretical if the implication was that the Father did 'desire the death of a sinner...'
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
15 January, 2013 13:39
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
So I know we discussed the matter of "resting in peace and rising in glory" a while back, but just quickly:
When did the departed begin to "Rise in Glory" ?
When I was a young Anglican - they merely Rested in Peace as far as I remember... but of late one never hears one without the other.
In some online fora I frequent, there are folks who pop up like that John 3:16 guy at sporting events with the rainbow wig on, as soon as anyone prays that souls may "rest in peace." "And rise in glory!"
I've heard of a priest rebutting that with, "Souls don't rise." But that leaves me behind theologically, as I don't know enough to agree or disagree with that.
Souls may not rise in glory according to the Bible, but bodies do!
The thread Leo linked to above was quoted from my post on one of the threads here (he says immodestly) It looks as if the phrase came into use in English after the Reformation, and was used as a grave inscription. And then became a liturgical response among marked Anglo-Catholics maybe in the late 19th century, but only escaped into general use in the Church of England in the last twenty years or so.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
15 January, 2013 13:52
Well, now I've got egg on my face. Upon checking the TEC 1979 and 1928 BCPs, I have re-discovered that the traditional Absoultion at the Daily Offices has been entirely done away with in favour of a short absolution similar to that provided at the Eucharist; whilst in 1928, the traditional absolution was retained for both Morning and Evening Prayer, however with the rubric at Morning Prayer that the priest might instead use the absolution from the rite for Holy Communion, and at Evening Prayer a second, shorter absolution being provided as an alternative (what became the sole provision in the '79 book).
Nonetheless, a TEC parish just down the road from me claims to do 1662 Choral Evensong (in point of fact they don't do the same suffrages, Prayer for the Queen's Majesty or Prayer for the Royal Family that would characterise a proper 1662 service, but instead do the traditional set of evening Office suffrages from the American BCP). They do, however, use the old, long form of the Absolution found in 1662 and in the American BCPs up through 1928. I suppose they must not be entirely unique in this practice amongst TEC parishes.
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
15 January, 2013 16:14
A similar question of syntax and Elizabethan grammar...
The 1979 TEC BCP Rite I MP/EP confession reads:
quote:
Almighty and most merciful Father,
we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep,
we have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts,
we have offended against thy holy laws,
we have left undone those things which we ought to have done,
and we have done those things which we ought not to have done.
But thou, O Lord, have mercy upon us,
spare thou those who confess their faults,
restore thou those who are penitent,
according to thy promises declared unto mankind
in Christ Jesus our Lord;
and grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake,
that we may hereafter live a godly, righteous, and sober life,
to the glory of thy holy Name. Amen.
Are the italicized sentences declarative or imperative? Are we asking God to have mercy, or stating that God has mercy? (Would it be "thou, O Lord, hast..."?)
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
15 January, 2013 17:15
I had always read those sentences as imperative, not declarative. I'm open to correction, however.
Those used to the 1662 confession for Mattins and Evensong will note that our 1979 BCP general confession for the Daily Offices has lost some bits, notably the, "And there is no health in us". This was cut from the confession not to lighten it up, but rather because the assertion was considered theologically incorrect, tending to suggest a "total depravity" view of the human condition that is not in accord with mainstream, orthodox Anglican theology. However, the omission seems to me to damage the rhythm of the prayer.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
15 January, 2013 17:22
The absolution we've been discussing appears in the 1979 USA BCP at the end of the Litany of Penitence on Ash Wednesday (p. 269)...
Almighty God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who desires not the death of sinners, but rather that they may turn from their wickedness and live, has given power and commandment to his ministers to declare and pronounce to his people, being penitent, the absolution and remission of their sins. He pardons and absolves all those who truly repent, and with sincere hearts believe his holy Gospel.
Therefore we beseech him to grant us true repentance and his Holy Spirit, that those things may please him which we do on this day, and that the rest of our life hereafter may be pure and holy, so that at the last we may come to his eternal joy; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
Doesn't seem to be any more of an actual absolution than the 1662 one at Evensong; it's entirely addressed to the people, although the final paragraph seems obliquely to let God in on the conversation.
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
15 January, 2013 20:52
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
A similar question of syntax and Elizabethan grammar...
The 1979 TEC BCP Rite I MP/EP confession reads:
quote:
Almighty and most merciful Father,
we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep,
we have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts,
we have offended against thy holy laws,
we have left undone those things which we ought to have done,
and we have done those things which we ought not to have done.
But thou, O Lord, have mercy upon us,
spare thou those who confess their faults,
restore thou those who are penitent,
according to thy promises declared unto mankind
in Christ Jesus our Lord;
and grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake,
that we may hereafter live a godly, righteous, and sober life,
to the glory of thy holy Name. Amen.
Are the italicized sentences declarative or imperative? Are we asking God to have mercy, or stating that God has mercy? (Would it be "thou, O Lord, hast..."?)
I don't see how this could be declarative. What we have here is a series of examples of one of the few instances where the forms of the verb in indicative and subjunctive moods are distinct. To be declarative the verbs would have to be indicative - i.e. hast, sparest and restorest. They are subjunctive and so could be jussive (in effect imperative) or optative (wishing). The latter would look to be more in keeping.
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
15 January, 2013 22:39
Thanks Metapelagius! That was exactly my question.
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
17 January, 2013 08:49
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
It looks as if the phrase came into use in English after the Reformation, and was used as a grave inscription. And then became a liturgical response among marked Anglo-Catholics maybe in the late 19th century, but only escaped into general use in the Church of England in the last twenty years or so.
I agree with Ken, except that it does not seem to be used by pukka Anglo-Catholics even today.
I know it seems I keep coming back to this question, but I have been trying to write something on Anglican prayer for the dead.
The "rise in glory" response is so common today that it's puzzling that it cannot be found in any liturgical text or apparently remembered from before the 1970s (at the earliest).
Just to clarify, it is specifically this formula I am enquiring about:
V: "May the souls of the faithful departed . . . rest in peace"
R: "and rise in glory".
We have had a lengthy discussion here, but never, I think, found a satisfactory answer to this question. The nearest seems to be the suggestion that it was introduced at Cuddesdon in Robert Runcie's day and spread from there.
Does anyone know if it appears in the Cuddesdon Office Book?
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
17 January, 2013 22:42
I've been worshipping in A-C parishes (and some rather less than A-C) in the US since 1957 (doesn't seem that long, somehow), and I have never heard 'rise in glory.' The response to 'May the souls … rest in peace.' has invariably been 'Amen.'
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
17 January, 2013 22:53
Carys mentioned a few posts back the Collect for purity of the BCP.
.....to whom all hearts are open, and from whom no secrets are hid, cleanse the... Etc.
What's the origin of this prayer, please?
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
17 January, 2013 23:02
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Carys mentioned a few posts back the Collect for purity of the BCP.
.....to whom all hearts are open, and from whom no secrets are hid, cleanse the... Etc.
What's the origin of this prayer, please?
The translation is Cranmer's, from the introduction to the Communion service. It appears in the 1549 BCP with the Lord's Prayer at the very beginning of the service.
I have a copy of Brian Cummings's excellent compilation and commentary on the BCP. He says that the prayer originates from "the introductory prayers of the celebrant in the Sarum Ordinary". He adds that it was not part of the Roman Missal.
My understanding is that originally it was not part of the service per se, but was part of a preparatory rite that would have been said privately, with the last parts (the Lord's Prayer and this collect) said as the priest approached the altar. This was then adopted by Cranmer as the opening to his order for Communion. (This is based on conversations with my tutors at theological college, not on any written resource.)
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
17 January, 2013 23:39
Basilica, your understanding matches my own and is corroborated by the Sarum Missal. It survives in this position in Sarum as used in the Orthodox Church.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
18 January, 2013 18:07
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
I've been worshipping in A-C parishes (and some rather less than A-C) in the US since 1957 (doesn't seem that long, somehow), and I have never heard 'rise in glory.' The response to 'May the souls … rest in peace.' has invariably been 'Amen.'
That is my experience, hence my query, but I do find it very much the response in (Roman) Catholic circles and that of Anglicans in the UK.
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Cornish High
Apprentice
# 17202
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Posted
19 January, 2013 14:19
The expression does not appear in my copy of the Cuddesdon office book. Bishop Fison of Salisbury was inclined to use the expression according to his biographer, and he was not particularly AC. Do evangelicals approve of the term as a matter of interest?
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anon four
Shipmate
# 15938
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Posted
19 January, 2013 15:46
quote:
....This was then adopted by Cranmer as the opening to his order for Communion. (This is based on conversations with my tutors at theological college, not on any written resource.) [/QB]
Cranmer indeed included the collect for purity and the opening Lord's Prayer to be said by the priest alone. They were still a priestly preparation for the Communion.
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Ό δε ανεξέταστος βίος ου βιωτος ανθρώπω.
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
19 January, 2013 16:02
quote:
Originally posted by Cornish High:
The expression does not appear in my copy of the Cuddesdon office book. Bishop Fison of Salisbury was inclined to use the expression according to his biographer, and he was not particularly AC. Do evangelicals approve of the term as a matter of interest?
A source at last! Could you give me a reference for that, or even expand a little? Why does the biographer think this worthy of a mention?
Thanks.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Cornish High
Apprentice
# 17202
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Posted
19 January, 2013 19:36
I cannot lay my hand on my copy of the Fison, but it is called "Afire for God" by F.W. Dillistone. I recall that on the last page the sentence in question went something like, "... the little term Joe taught people to use at the end of the traditional prayer 'may the souls ... rest in peace' and rise in glory." Perhaps someone with a copy of the book can verify? Bp Joe was at Salisbury in the 1960s as was Runcie at Cuddesdon but I don't know if there was any connection in this matter.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
19 January, 2013 19:55
quote:
Originally posted by Cornish High:
I cannot lay my hand on my copy of the Fison, but it is called "Afire for God" by F.W. Dillistone. I recall that on the last page the sentence in question went something like, "... the little term Joe taught people to use at the end of the traditional prayer 'may the souls ... rest in peace' and rise in glory." Perhaps someone with a copy of the book can verify? Bp Joe was at Salisbury in the 1960s as was Runcie at Cuddesdon but I don't know if there was any connection in this matter.
I have that book (he confirmed me and was a great evangelical) but don't believe it - will look at it when I get time.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
19 January, 2013 20:24
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Cornish High:
I cannot lay my hand on my copy of the Fison, but it is called "Afire for God" by F.W. Dillistone. I recall that on the last page the sentence in question went something like, "... the little term Joe taught people to use at the end of the traditional prayer 'may the souls ... rest in peace' and rise in glory." Perhaps someone with a copy of the book can verify? Bp Joe was at Salisbury in the 1960s as was Runcie at Cuddesdon but I don't know if there was any connection in this matter.
I have that book (he confirmed me and was a great evangelical) but don't believe it - will look at it when I get time.
Please do; you might finally put this one to rest.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
20 January, 2013 18:16
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Cornish High:
I cannot lay my hand on my copy of the Fison, but it is called "Afire for God" by F.W. Dillistone. I recall that on the last page the sentence in question went something like, "... the little term Joe taught people to use at the end of the traditional prayer 'may the souls ... rest in peace' and rise in glory." Perhaps someone with a copy of the book can verify? Bp Joe was at Salisbury in the 1960s as was Runcie at Cuddesdon but I don't know if there was any connection in this matter.
I have that book (he confirmed me and was a great evangelical) but don't believe it - will look at it when I get time.
Can't find it - drat.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
20 January, 2013 18:41
It was printed on the service sheet at Evensong at Inverness cathedral tonight, but I don't know whether that's a local custom or from the official liturgy. Similar we had the Orate Fratres this morning.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Ultracrepidarian
Shipmate
# 9679
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Posted
20 January, 2013 21:52
I'm not sure if this is even a liturgical question, but it's definitely miscellaneous!
Approximately how long does a Pontifical Liturgy of the Orthodox Western Rite take?
Posts: 1897 | From: Cattle crossing | Registered: Jul 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
20 January, 2013 22:27
quote:
Originally posted by Ultracrepidarian:
I'm not sure if this is even a liturgical question, but it's definitely miscellaneous!
Approximately how long does a Pontifical Liturgy of the Orthodox Western Rite take?
It varies according to the rite used, number of communicants, solemnity of the service, &c.
The UK group is a fledgling mission with a newly-ordained priest (they had no resident UK priest until a few months ago) so I doubt that it will be a fully-staffed affair with all of the bells and whistles, (assuming that you're asking about the occasion that I'm fairly sure you are). They are good enough to keep me in the loop of their correspondence and I'm fairly sure that I recall that they have opted for what was, until recently, dubbed "the Fraternity Liturgy" for their use here.
My suggestion would be to expect something dignified but low-key, with people who have come together for the occasion but do not usually worship together regularly. I imagine that it will last round about an hour, if not slightly longer.
As it happens, I spoke with their priest only this evening about various things, and to offer my apologies for not being able to honour my standing offer of help to them whenever they need it. I have just started a new job and cannot take any time off, which is very upsetting for me for a number of reasons, not least of which is my long-standing peripheral involvement with the Western Rite effort in the UK.
If you want to know more about it, send me an e-mail or something. I'd love to be in touch with folk who are privileged to go.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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