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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: St Paul's To Close
Big Oil
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This morning St Paul's Cathederal in London is threatening to close its doors to the public because a big street protest has set up in front of it.

Is anyone close enough to the scene to know exactly what the issue is? Surely our clergy should be supporting this protest and using them to get a radical Christian message to the public. I think to close down because of a few prophetic souls objecting to the injustice of the economic system, sends all the wrong messages.
quote:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!



[ 05. March 2012, 16:08: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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"The Gulf of Mexico is a very big ocean. The amount of volume of oil and dispersant we are putting into it is tiny in relation to the total water volume." - Tony Hayward

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Marvin the Martian

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There's a big protest. Big protests in London have a habit of turning nasty. St Paul's doesn't want some group of tourists or schoolkids on a field trip getting caught in the middle of something like that, so they're thinking about closing while it's going on.

As for the churches supporting the 'prophetic' protesters: your biases are showing.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Spawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Oil:
Surely our clergy should be supporting this protest and using them to get a radical Christian message to the public. I think to close down because of a few prophetic souls objecting to the injustice of the economic system, sends all the wrong messages.

What radical Christian message are you proposing to get across? It strikes me that the protesters don't even themselves have a unified and focussed sense of what they're protesting against. One person's 'prophecy' is another person's nuisance.

It strikes me there are red-faces at St Paul's now. They moved police on at the weekend thus handing over the square to the protest camp without any thought for the consequences.

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leo
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Yes - the same bias that Jesus had - a bias to the poor.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes - the same bias that Jesus had - a bias to the poor.

Not the protesters then...

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Angloid
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It was the Canon Chancellor Giles Fraser who made the brave decision to allow the protestors to stay there unhindered. I'm reminded of the late Fr John Methuen who allowed a Sri Lankan asylum seeker to live in his church vestry for several months. No doubt at great inconvenience to the regular congregation and the day to day work of the church, but a prophetic gesture none the less.

That Canon Fraser's colleagues seem to have undermined him suggests that they are more interested in allowing the money-changers of the city back into the Temple than supporting those who challenge them, like Jesus himself. Sad but predictable. [Disappointed]

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes - the same bias that Jesus had - a bias to the poor.

Not the protesters then...
Indeed not. The protesters are anti- a lot of things, but I've yet to see them come out with a viable pro- anything proposal.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Tubbs

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I walk past St Pauls everyday on the way to work. The camp organisers do seem to be working with the Cathedral authorities to ensure that that their protest doesn’t get in the way of the daily life of the Cathedral – tents have been moved away from gates and the front steps have been cleared. It all seems reasonably well organised and good natured – but the police presence is quite noticeable and bits of the Square have been blocked off. That bit of my journey takes longer than it did. (Although that could be because I’ve been reading some of the artwork and chatting!)

Part of the problem is that although the understanding at first was that the camp was going to be a temporary thing, but they’ve now talking about staying for the long term. It all looks very organised – power, recycling facilities and a food kitchen etc. Which probably wasn’t quite what the Cathedral thought they were signing up for … The other problem is that however good and well behaved the majority of protestors are, there are always going to be some idiots who misbehave and wreak it. I’m not sure what long term effect it’s going to have on visitor figures. Some tourists and schools groups might think twice about going, but others will probably think, “Sod it” and go.

I don’t think it’s possible to see it in terms of Jesus would do this or that … Although everyone there seems to be in agreement that things are broken and that the voice of the 99% isn’t being heard due to the volume of the 1%, no one seems to be in agreement with how to fix things. Jesus would probably agree with some of what they say, but not all of it. And far be it for me to decide which bits those are!

Tubbs

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Spawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Although everyone there seems to be in agreement that things are broken and that the voice of the 99% isn’t being heard due to the volume of the 1%, no one seems to be in agreement with how to fix things.

This surely is precisely the problem. And there's no division into one per cent and 99 per cent - we are a much more divided society than that. I see the voices of the protesters as people who are drowning out the actual voices of those they claim to represent.
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justlooking
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It's inspired by the Occupy Wall Street protest which is spreading to several European countries.

Plus - what Angloid said.

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Zach82
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I think the Christian way is doing quiet acts of mercy for the poor, without fanfare. Perhaps more, the Christian way is actually to be poor. I find any expectation that the Church join or support human political movements deeply suspect, especially when the movement, like this occupy whatever one, is founded on only the vaguest sense of injustice and motivated by the profoundest self indulgence. The Church exists to preach to the world its deep need for a relationship with Jesus Christ, revealed in the Bible, not to put the crown on the latest political cause.

Zach

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
It's inspired by the Occupy Wall Street protest which is spreading to several European countries.

Plus - what Angloid said.

Some news reports say the movement started in Spain and then spread to Wall Street and beyond.

Tubbs

[ 20. October 2011, 13:10: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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badman
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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Part of the problem is that although the understanding at first was that the camp was going to be a temporary thing, but they’ve now talking about staying for the long term. It all looks very organised – power, recycling facilities and a food kitchen etc."

I do think there's a difference between a protest and a permanent occupation.

The first work of the Cathedral is the worship of God. If, as the Cathedral now says, it may actually have to close, the occupiers are destroying the work of a body which has nothing to do with anything they are protesting about.

I would be surprised if it were actually that bad. The protesters are now more to the side of the Cathedral. But I still don't see the point of long term occupation of an area which is not a Bank, or the Stock Exchange. The people who will be affected by a long term closure of this public space are ordinary local workers and tourists, none of whom have any influence over whatever it is the protesters would like to happen or not happen.

These people are not defending their own homes, like the people at Dale Farm. They aren't trying to shame legislators on the spot, like the camp in Parliament Square. They aren't where the people they object to are, like the women of Greenham Common. They aren't doing anything which is properly thought through or properly targeted.

It looks irresponsible and it looks self indulgent. Those who look on them more kindly and sentimentally than I do are nicer people than I am, I must admit, and that is to their credit as Christians. But nice people can be taken advantage of and I think that is why the cathedral is the victim here. It's a soft touch.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by badman:
They aren't doing anything which is properly thought through or properly targeted.

They've seen what's happening in New York and thought "hey, that looks cool! Let's do it here as well!"

That's about the extent of their thinking, as far as I can tell.

But don't worry. They'll all bugger off again when the next cool thing goes viral on Facebook.

[ 20. October 2011, 13:36: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Ellis Bell
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I think the movement took inspiration from lots of places, not just Spain, but also the "Arab Spring." I think you can certainly see that in the social media component to the protest.

I've found Occupy Wall Street very fascinating. I know lots of people want them to make demands for change, treating them like they're 1960s dirty hippies, but they aren't. I think by pointing to a problem without making demands they are elevating the debate in a way that we haven't seen for decades. American political discourse hasn't discussed wealth inequality in 80 years, and they have certainly injected that back into the mix. I also think it is very useful to point out, as they have done, that there have been few systemic changes to the Banking industry and we are still vulnerable to the disastrous effects of having institutions that are "too big to fail."

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
They aren't doing anything which is properly thought through or properly targeted.

They've seen what's happening in New York and thought "hey, that looks cool! Let's do it here as well!"

That's about the extent of their thinking, as far as I can tell.

But don't worry. They'll all bugger off again when the next cool thing goes viral on Facebook.

Or more likely when the weather goes cool.

That Giles Fraser sounds a bit of a mockney to me. I have heard of outreach but does it need to be so blokeish? A real gem of a geezer I am sure.

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by Ellis Bell:
I think the movement took inspiration from lots of places, not just Spain, but also the "Arab Spring." I think you can certainly see that in the social media component to the protest.

I've found Occupy Wall Street very fascinating. I know lots of people want them to make demands for change, treating them like they're 1960s dirty hippies, but they aren't. I think by pointing to a problem without making demands they are elevating the debate in a way that we haven't seen for decades. American political discourse hasn't discussed wealth inequality in 80 years, and they have certainly injected that back into the mix. I also think it is very useful to point out, as they have done, that there have been few systemic changes to the Banking industry and we are still vulnerable to the disastrous effects of having institutions that are "too big to fail."

The Arab Spring my arse.
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Ellis Bell
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quote:
They'll all bugger off again when the next cool thing goes viral on Facebook.
I rather think not. It is easy to dismiss them as the new millennium's stupid kids, but to do so would be very shortsighted. The people I've talked to at Zuccatti Park here in New York seemed very committed and very sophisticated. They are not out there at the whim and fancy of some Internet craze.

20,000 people converged on Times Square last Saturday, which can hardly be dismissed as something viral on Facebook, although I'm sure that Facebook was a tool in getting the word out. These folks are giving voice to a lot of anger--that there were no prosecutions for corruption and fraud, that finance eats up a disproportionate amount of wealth, that corporate dollars buy political influence, and that systemic flaws in the economy haven't been fixed.

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Ellis Bell
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quote:
The Arab Spring my arse.
That is certainly how the major the three major TV Networks are reporting it. I can find you clips if you like.
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justlooking
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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
... there's no division into one per cent and 99 per cent - we are a much more divided society than that.

Yes we are divided This has a simple diagram showing just how the pie is divided in the USA I don't suppose it's much different anywhere else.

Anyone in the UK in the 50's and 60's would have known full employment. It was possible for 15 year olds to leave school with no qualifications and walk straight into a job. Those who stayed on in education knew their qualifications would be worth having. The same divisions were around but there was some common ground between capitalists and workers. Now that profit now comes largely from financial speculation and the service industries there's not much common ground between rich and poor.

I'm sure we'll see more protests of one sort or another in the next few years. The Church will need to stop sitting on the fence.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:


I'm sure we'll see more protests of one sort or another in the next few years. The Church will need to stop sitting on the fence.

I don't think the Church is poor is it?

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the Christian way is doing quiet acts of mercy for the poor, without fanfare. Perhaps more, the Christian way is actually to be poor. I find any expectation that the Church join or support human political movements deeply suspect, especially when the movement, like this occupy whatever one, is founded on only the vaguest sense of injustice and motivated by the profoundest self indulgence. The Church exists to preach to the world its deep need for a relationship with Jesus Christ, revealed in the Bible, not to put the crown on the latest political cause.

Zach

Indeed [Smile]

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Knopwood
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By contrast, St James' Cathedral in Toronto has accommodated the Occupy Bay Street campout quite congenially, even arranging for them to have hot water routed into the park.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the Christian way is doing quiet acts of mercy for the poor, without fanfare. Perhaps more, the Christian way is actually to be poor. I find any expectation that the Church join or support human political movements deeply suspect, especially when the movement, like this occupy whatever one, is founded on only the vaguest sense of injustice and motivated by the profoundest self indulgence. The Church exists to preach to the world its deep need for a relationship with Jesus Christ, revealed in the Bible, not to put the crown on the latest political cause.

Zach

Indeed [Smile]
Which is presumably why Canon Fraser was sufficiently guarded in his initial statement. He deliberately did not say that the Church supports the protest, but the right of free speech. Presumably the Cathedral was chosen by the protesters because it provided space for them to assemble that was not under the jurisdiction of the City of London or its police. Having said that of course, you wouldn't put yourself out to support free speech if you disagreed violently with what was being said. It's a question of nuance. Probably a very Anglican solution, whereas the threatened closure doesn't seem like that at all.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Alogon
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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
there's no division into one per cent and 99 per cent - we are a much more divided society than that.

Which is, of course, no accident. "Divide and conquer" is an old strategy.

quote:
I see the voices of the protesters as people who are drowning out the actual voices of those they claim to represent.
Unless you are one of those they claim to represent and you feel yourself drowned out, how are you in a position to judge? To be fair, I'm probably not, either, however down-at-heel I may look, thanks to building up a nest egg for retirement that leaves me better off in theory than a great many. I'm fortunate. But the squeeze is on, it's only a matter of time. I'm certainly not among the 1% or even the 10%.

The important fact is that these demonstrations are burgeoning spontaneously in many places, whereas 5, 10, 20 years ago we had nothing of the kind. They protest an inequity of wealth unprecedented in American life (at least since the eve of the Great Depression). A good precedent was in the final years of the Roman Empire.

By and large, the 1% has long since found it too risky to parade its wealth in conspicuous consumption as did the industrial moguls of the Gilded Age. They now put their enclaves in somewhat more secluded spots than Fifth Avenue. For awhile such subtlety seems to have worked; but it is now plain to see that they can't fool all of the people all of the time. Ellis Bell and I call that progress.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Spawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Which is, of course, no accident. "Divide and conquer" is an old strategy.

Who do you think is operating this strategy of 'divide and rule'? Incompetent politicians, bungling shadowy security forces?

quote:
Unless you are one of those they claim to represent and you feel yourself drowned out, how are you in a position to judge? To be fair, I'm probably not, either, however down-at-heel I may look, thanks to building up a nest egg for retirement that leaves me better off in theory than a great many. I'm fortunate. But the squeeze is on, it's only a matter of time. I'm certainly not among the 1% or even the 10%.

The important fact is that these demonstrations are burgeoning spontaneously in many places, whereas 5, 10, 20 years ago we had nothing of the kind. They protest an inequity of wealth unprecedented in American life (at least since the eve of the Great Depression). A good precedent was in the final years of the Roman Empire.

Spontaneous? It may have begun spontaneously but that hardly describes the British protests. They're now just jumping on a bandwagon.

The crucial question is not whether I am in a position to judge but whether they are. They after all are the ones claiming to be representative. My point is to question that claim.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Ellis Bell
I've found Occupy Wall Street very fascinating. I know lots of people want them to make demands for change, treating them like they're 1960s dirty hippies, but they aren't. I think by pointing to a problem without making demands they are elevating the debate in a way that we haven't seen for decades.

I 180° disagree. I've neither sympathy nor respect for anyone who says they want to change something, but doesn't accompany it with a clear programme of what they propose in stead and how to do it.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
But don't worry. They'll all bugger off again when the next cool thing goes viral on Facebook.

The weather turning cool - or wet - might do it.

Tangent and Rant Alert

quote:
From Big Oil's OP
I think to close down because of a few prophetic souls objecting to the injustice of the economic system, sends all the wrong messages.

Are we really saying these people are 'prophetic'?

To say something is prophetic is to say that God has the speaker's ear, and that the speaker has heard the specific voice of God to the occasion and passed it on.

It is not 'prophetic' just to be outspoken, controversial, or to say things that anyone can work out, but hasn't done, doesn't agree with or might find disturbing. It may be a good thing or a bad thing. It may be courageous. It may be stupid. But it is not 'prophetic'. It is a serious misuse of the word.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I've neither sympathy nor respect for anyone who says they want to change something, but doesn't accompany it with a clear programme of what they propose in stead and how to do it.

I don't know how any of us mere mortals with no particular insight into how international finance operates, can be expected to have a 'clear programme' of how to deal with it. Maybe (in fact, probably almost certainly) national governments can't do this either. But surely as citizens in a democracy we have the right to protest when something's wrong and expect those with the ability to put things right to do so.

Isn't your suggestion a bit like saying we've no right to go to the doctor unless we can give an expert diagnosis and prescribe the right treatment? Knowing that something is wrong is not the same as being able to put it right.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Gamaliel
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I've got Facebook contact with someone who is with the protestors and they've posted to say that we shouldn't believe what we read in the 'right-wing press' (as if we would [Biased] ) because the cathedral authorities are working with the protestors and they've agreed some logistical adjustments so they don't disrupt access etc. Things may have moved on since he posted that.

I'm not as cynical about the motives of the protestors as some posters here, but I did cringe a bit at Giles Fraser's posturing to some extent. That said, I'd rather his sort of stance than some of the dorkish comments that some senior clergy of a more right-wing persuasion have come out with over the years - the Cumbrian floods as God's judgement on our society and all that sort of malarkey.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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ianjmatt
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I was down there on Tuesday (had a meeting in the City so was dressed in a suit but my friend and I kicked a football around with a few of the protestors for a while) and also have been in touch with a few people connected with the Dean & Chapter. I have heard there is some considerable tension within the Chapter who felt they had to go along with Giles Fraser's comments on Sunday, but are now facing a situation where they cannot win either way. If they allow the protestors to stay then they are risking access, the safety of visitors and some considerable income (which I heard has dropped off already this week). If the protestors decide not leave, they cannot risk the PR distaster of forcing them off.

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http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com

But maybe not

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Spawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've got Facebook contact with someone who is with the protestors and they've posted to say that we shouldn't believe what we read in the 'right-wing press' (as if we would [Biased] ) because the cathedral authorities are working with the protestors and they've agreed some logistical adjustments so they don't disrupt access etc. Things may have moved on since he posted that.

I'm not as cynical about the motives of the protestors as some posters here, but I did cringe a bit at Giles Fraser's posturing to some extent. That said, I'd rather his sort of stance than some of the dorkish comments that some senior clergy of a more right-wing persuasion have come out with over the years - the Cumbrian floods as God's judgement on our society and all that sort of malarkey.

I don't know, I kind of enjoyed Giles Fraser's intervention at the weekend. He used to be a member of the SWP and I suspect he was probably quite enjoying a reminder of his protesting past. Strangely enough, his actions at the weekend may well have prevented the usual sort of violence that accompanies anti-capitalist protests. I think where his judgement went astray was in not taking account of the potentially long-term nature of this protest. If the camp stays at this site the numbers of protesters there must be limited to avoid encroaching on the ministry of St Paul's. I suspect that this is not what the organisers want or envisage and herein lies a potential problem. Nevertheless, these things usually run-out-of-steam in cold weather so the problems may not actually arise.

Like Giles Fraser, I welcome protest and see nothing wrong with the church offering a form of hospitality to it. But this hospitality must not compromise the church and be mistaken for agreement with specific policies. After all, the Church of England is broad - sheltering under its wing loopy charismatics, and frothing-at-mouth radicals.

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Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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Prejudices against the left-wing and ones own biases expressed in this thread aside, I support the occupiers.

Of course, anything 'radical' is bound to piss some people off, but that's life.

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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
But surely as citizens in a democracy we have the right to protest when something's wrong and expect those with the ability to put things right to do so.

Isn't your suggestion a bit like saying we've no right to go to the doctor unless we can give an expert diagnosis and prescribe the right treatment? Knowing that something is wrong is not the same as being able to put it right.

The people with the ability to put things right are trying to do so.

These protests are more like someone going to the doctor so she can cure their cancer, then complaining that she's doing it wrong because the chemotherapy makes their hair fall out.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The people with the ability to put things right are trying to do so.

These protests are more like someone going to the doctor so she can cure their cancer, then complaining that she's doing it wrong because the chemotherapy makes their hair fall out.

Yes, I agree with this. When I see the protests in Greece I wonder. If the government gave in to the protestors and had no austerity measures - what then?

It's the same here to a lesser extent.

I truly believe that there should be a way of redistributing wealth - but camping out on the streets isn't going to make it happen.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Niminypiminy
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quote:
originally posted by Boogie:
I truly believe that there should be a way of redistributing wealth - but camping out on the streets isn't going to make it happen.

But then what kind of protest does work? Shall we all write a letter to our MP?

Mass demonstrations in Eastern Europe and in the Arab worldhave been the catalyst for regime change. But of course mass demonstrations can't have a detailed programme, they can only be a more or less inchoate expression of popular feeling. Back in the days, that is why marxist parties were always seeking to lead demonstrations -- to supply the programme.

I don't have an answer to all this. I don't know what the Occupy protesters will achieve. Perhaps the best that they can do by being there and hanging on, is to express a fairly widespread feeling that something is wrong with the distribution of wealth and that people are unhappy about it and that they are continuing to be unhappy about it.

That may not be much, but it certainly is more than sitting at home doing nothing will achieve.

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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/

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Moth

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# 2589

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If I worked at the cathedral, I'd be worried that it might all turn nasty and then innocent bystanders would get kettled by the police.

My parents were meeting my nephew in front of St Paul's on Saturday morning (not knowing about the planned protest)and didn't stay there long for that very reason. I found it ironic that two law-abiding OAPs with pro-establishment views should be scared to stay somewhere because of the police, but my mother is very claustrophobic so there merest hint of kettling had her terrified.

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"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally reloed by Angloid
I don't know how any of us mere mortals with no particular insight into how international finance operates, can be expected to have a 'clear programme' of how to deal with it. Maybe (in fact, probably almost certainly) national governments can't do this either. But surely as citizens in a democracy we have the right to protest when something's wrong and expect those with the ability to put things right to do so.

Isn't your suggestion a bit like saying we've no right to go to the doctor unless we can give an expert diagnosis and prescribe the right treatment? Knowing that something is wrong is not the same as being able to put it right.

No. By setting oneself up with an organised protest, one is advertising oneself as the doctor, rather than the sickness.

Just protesting, without being able to offer a persuasive programme is like standing on the street corner and shouting, 'You're all dying. There ought to be a cure, but we don't know what it is. It's the medical profession's fault for not finding it, not ours. So hard luck.'

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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quote:
Originally posted by Moth:
If I worked at the cathedral, I'd be worried that it might all turn nasty and then innocent bystanders would get kettled by the police.

My parents were meeting my nephew in front of St Paul's on Saturday morning (not knowing about the planned protest)and didn't stay there long for that very reason. I found it ironic that two law-abiding OAPs with pro-establishment views should be scared to stay somewhere because of the police, but my mother is very claustrophobic so there merest hint of kettling had her terrified.

As someone who has worked in a cathedral and also gets claustrophobia, I would help the occupiers in any way I would, if I was working there.

Changes in society don't happen through e-petitions and letters to MP's (as helpful as they can sometimes be). Sometimes different things need to happen.

In any case, the people to blame for kettles are the police.

[ 21. October 2011, 12:54: Message edited by: Rosa Winkel ]

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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

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Garden Hermit
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I am afraid the protesters are arrogant.

What makes them think they are the only ones who would like to re-distribute capital more fairly ?

And that means reducing not only the Bankers Bonuses in the UK, but most of us would have to have some sort of cut including those of benefits.

Everyone is in favour of someone else having the cut in income but not them.

I am afraid most people in the UK want their 'HD ready plasma' TV and really couldn't care less how they get it. (No I don't have one or want one.)

This is not 'lets get out of Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya' type of campaign with a definite Christain message.

Its lets smash the Capitalist system ... and replace it with what ?

Time to move them on so St Pauls can get back to trading with the rich Tourists.

Pax et Bonum

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Evensong
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# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The people with the ability to put things right are trying to do so.

Who is that?


I reckon Giles Fraser is a bloody legend. [Votive]

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a theological scrapbook

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I am afraid the protesters are arrogant.

What makes them think they are the only ones who would like to re-distribute capital more fairly ?

And that means reducing not only the Bankers Bonuses in the UK, but most of us would have to have some sort of cut including those of benefits.

Everyone is in favour of someone else having the cut in income but not them.

I am afraid most people in the UK want their 'HD ready plasma' TV and really couldn't care less how they get it.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Can you quote one protester who thinks they are the only ones in favour of fairer distribution?

And the patronising put-down of ordinary people's aspirations implicit in that last sentence pisses me off. To those who live in multi-roomed mansions who have long been able to afford all the high-tech gizmos they might want, any 'cuts' they might be suffering are negligible. To people who have struggled and scrabbled all their life to attain a decent standard of living, let alone to those still struggling to keep a foothold in society, or unable to imagine what it is like to have a roof over their head, the posturing greed of the rich and the hypocrisy of 'we're all in it together' must be an added torture.

Why shouldn't ordinary people have a share in the nation's wealth? Why should young people be deprived of an education because they can't even afford to do A levels since the EMA has been cut, let alone the terrifying costs of a university degree? Why should art and music and literature become the preserve of the leisured rich instead of the heritage of all? Why should the health service be restructured for the benefit of multi-national drug companies?

There's so much to protest about, and to suggest that the problems are being addressed by the present government, instead of compounded, is to defy common sense and the evidence.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Evensong
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# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think the Christian way is doing quiet acts of mercy for the poor, without fanfare.

Like Jesus never did anything without fanfare? [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The Church exists to preach to the world its deep need for a relationship with Jesus Christ, revealed in the Bible, not to put the crown on the latest political cause.

Some people believe fighting unjust social structures and inequality of wealth and opportunity are expressions of a deep relationship with Jesus Christ.

And those that don't recognize that are right wing conservative winguts that would be more comfortable sitting with the Sadducees in council so as to preserve the status quo.

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a theological scrapbook

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally reloed by Angloid
I don't know how any of us mere mortals with no particular insight into how international finance operates, can be expected to have a 'clear programme' of how to deal with it. Maybe (in fact, probably almost certainly) national governments can't do this either. But surely as citizens in a democracy we have the right to protest when something's wrong and expect those with the ability to put things right to do so.

Isn't your suggestion a bit like saying we've no right to go to the doctor unless we can give an expert diagnosis and prescribe the right treatment? Knowing that something is wrong is not the same as being able to put it right.

No. By setting oneself up with an organised protest, one is advertising oneself as the doctor, rather than the sickness.


I don't think this is true, necessarily. Eg, People who protest over the mal-administration of an A&E department that keeps patients waiting for 18 hours, or on a trolly for two days, are demonstrating that they'd like the people who are paid to see to the health of the nation do that more efficiently and accountably.

And bearing in mind that such appointments are made according to the processes and under the responsibility of those elected by the nation, this seems like an important freedom and a just one.

This case seems to be rather similar in principle. But it is regrettable that such protests will inevitably become popular with mere agitators and nuisance-makers as well as genuine protestors. It is wrong, however, to write off the legitimate objective of a protest because of those people.

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Who do you think is operating this strategy of 'divide and rule'? Incompetent politicians, bungling shadowy security forces?

Or competent politicians in corporate pockets. One woman wrote to the newspaper that her primary reason to join the demonstration is the fact that corporations can buy congressmen. That's worth demonstrating about, it seems to me. And you could choose a dozen other equally worthy reasons.

Obviously, one favorite technique of politicians is to play off religious people against "secular humanists", or straight people against gay people. None of this should have much to do with how one is treated in law or in the economy. Another (in which the pundits and academe are glad to participate with good intentions) is to attribute poverty to racism, and to convince white people that they are all racists whether they intend to be or not. I agree that racial minorities have been severely disadvantaged, and to some extent still are, and we must be sensitive. But essentially nowadays these are all side shows and distractions. A lot of poor people today are white. Some of them have been poor for two or three generations, ever since they were pushed off their farms.

quote:
Spontaneous? It may have begun spontaneously but that hardly describes the British protests. They're now just jumping on a bandwagon.
Bandwagons, and jumping thereon, can be spontaneous. I doubt that in many cases these people are there because an organization with a mailing list or phone bank sent messages to its members to show up at such-and-such a place and time to demonstrate. That's a difference, isn't it?

[ 21. October 2011, 14:03: Message edited by: Alogon ]

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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Angloid: [Overused]

You have much more patience than I have.

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Angloid: [Overused]

You have much more patience than I have.

Age, dear boy*, age!

* despite your ship name I've always assumed you to be male. To accept my apologies if I'm wrong.

[ 21. October 2011, 14:18: Message edited by: Angloid ]

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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dv
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Message from the Dean and comrade Giles: "Cathedral closed. God'll have to wait" ... we've got more important 'elf n safety and trendy peripatetic protesters to support.
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Ellis Bell
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# 16348

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quote:
originally posted by Enoch: Just protesting, without being able to offer a persuasive programme is like standing on the street corner and shouting, 'You're all dying. There ought to be a cure, but we don't know what it is. It's the medical profession's fault for not finding it, not ours.
This is precisely what ActUp did in the late '80s and early '90s with AIDS/HIV, although in their instance they blamed the State for not funding research as well as the medical establishment for ignoring the disease.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

... camping out on the streets isn't going to make it happen.

True. The sad fact is that the bosses take notice when people break things. Violent protests are genuinely more effective. Though they usually do very little good to the people actually protesting.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Zach82
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# 3208

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quote:
Some people believe fighting unjust social structures and inequality of wealth and opportunity are expressions of a deep relationship with Jesus Christ.

And those that don't recognize that are right wing conservative winguts that would be more comfortable sitting with the Sadducees in council so as to preserve the status quo.

Ever notice how the same people tend to keep getting into the same fights on the Ship, over and over and over again?

I've certainly noticed that you keep making the same logical errors over and over again, this time the "It's either only serve the poor, or not serve the poor at all" error. It is cute that you've accused me of being a "right wing conservative wingnut" that killed Jesus, when I actually strongly support social programs and vote for democrats. I just don't confuse that with serving God, and believe that liberal politics can be just as godless as conservative politics. Horrible things have been done with the excuse of "serving the greater good."

"And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not."

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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