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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: St Paul's To Close
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I understood they had checked with the fire brigade, and the fire brigade did not feel there was an access issue.

(Sounds like it is starting to smell in period with the building. Isn't this what incense was originally for ? The altar rail was a fence to keep the animals away form the altar, and incense masked the smell of the people and the animals.)

[ 23. October 2011, 22:09: Message edited by: Think² ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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justlooking
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# 12079

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
If they can't be persuaded to see the sense of this, the cathedral authorities should go to court and obtain an injunction requiring these people to vacate the site.

I don't think it's that simple. There's been some discussion about this on a news report and it seems there's uncertainty about the boundaries which would make it difficult to show ownership of the site.
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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

I think most demos are a posturing nuisance and few get anywhere. I don't see why one person should think their opinion is more important than other peoples' convenience.

They are meant to be a nuisance. Like strikes. And unfortunately they often inconvenience those who are not to blame for the grievance. Thatcher was forced to repeal the Poll Tax as a result of public anger. She won with the miners unfortunately but would you have wanted them to roll over without a murmur? In what is a very imperfect democracy (though not, of course, a fascist state) it is important for people to be able to show those in power what we feel.

For every person who is brave enough to camp out at St Paul's, there are very many (even hundreds, thousands) like me who are with them in spirit. Not in person [a] because I live a long way from London, [b] I have other commitments, [c] I'm not in the first flush of youth, and [d] I'm a bit of a wimp. We don't believe that the millions of hard-working or unemployed people of this country who are finding life an increasingly difficult struggle, should have to suffer unduly for the greed of the rich minority.

I suppose if we all wrote letters to the Times instead our grievances would be settled peacefully and swiftly. And pigs would be gathering on the dome of St Paul's.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Thatcher ... won with the miners unfortunately but would you have wanted them to roll over without a murmur? In what is a very imperfect democracy (though not, of course, a fascist state) it is important for people to be able to show those in power what we feel.

Well I think a lot of people would have wanted the miners to hold a vote on strike action. Even if you think our democracy imperfect, the NUM was capable of doing that, wasn't it?
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comet

Snowball in Hell
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I don't see why one person should think their opinion is more important than other peoples' convenience.

the point is that it's not one person. if it was, it wouldn't be inconvenient.

as my man Arlo says... if 50 people walk in and sing a chorus of Alice's Restaurant, it's a movement.

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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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Do only the 1% visit and worship at St. Paul's?

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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PaulBC
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# 13712

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It is a major attraction in London. If I ever get opver I will visit it . It is also the seat of the Bishop of London . [Votive] [Smile] [Angel]

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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8

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PaulTH*
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# 320

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
She won with the miners unfortunately but would you have wanted them to roll over without a murmur?

Would anyome want coal to be a major source of energy when all politcians are trying to prove their green credentials? As Anglican't pointed out, Scargill didn't trust his own membership with a national ballot. He used a loophole in the law, by which a local strike can be called without a ballot, and hoped that its rolling effect would close the whole country.

In a democracy, there needs to be a right to withdraw labour and peacefully protest. Again it comes down to freedom and responsibility. When tube drivers, who earn on average at least £50k per annum go on strike, they keep millions of people away from work and cost the country billions of pounds. That is an irresponsible use of a disproportionate power, which should be limited by law.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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shamwari
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This incident gets ever more confusing.

I listened in to an hours phone in on Sat night. A spokesperson for the protestors was repeated asked to specify what their demands were. She repeatedly evaded the question. Eventually it turned out that they were protesting in the hope of forming a "democratic forum" which would then discuss what they should be demanding.

On the other hand St Paul's authorities closed on health and safety grounds after discussion with the fire service. The radio station phoned the fire service and got an assurance that the protestor's "camp" conformed with all safety regulations and St Pauls had been informed accordingly.

So it seems that the protestors are demonstrating against a bankrupt political system with no proposals to change. And St Paul's is making use of elf & safety fears - I am not sure to what purpose.

All very confusing.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
I'm well aware of what Jesus says about money, wealth and power. To my mind his teaching warns about the dangers of riches and wealth, and calls on the rich to make choices about their resources - even to the point of giving them up. I don't find very much that speaks to specific taxation policies or what we should do about structural injustice, regulation, the market-place. What do you find in the Gospels that influences your decision to withdraw labour, or backs up the Occupy Protests?

Sorry it's taken me a while to get to this. My internets have been mostly down and entirely unreliable.

You're right that the gospels don't talk specifics - which was, of course, very wise of Our Lord as it leaves us to work out what 'fair and just' looks like in our own given situations, and furthermore, forces the likes of you and me to grudgingly acknowledge that we can both follow Jesus while one of us being crashingly wrong (that's you, by the way [Razz] )

Simply put - a fair day's wage for a fair day's work. That labour is rewarded is a deep gospel message and rooted in the the vision of the Kingdom - which is both now and to come, not just pie-in-the-sky.

I don't think I'd ever strike simply for more money, though if the company was profiting from my labour and enriching the CEO at the expense of the workforce, who were seeing their living standards deteriorate, perhaps.

Workplace safety - definitely. Terms and conditions we had signed up for being degraded - likewise. These things affect only the workers, and without meaningful negotiation (H&S in the workplace is barely negotiable), withdrawal of labour is the only tool we have left in the box.

I make most (!) of my money through self-employment, but I take my employed duties seriously. I've talked to my colleagues, and the feeling is that we've been left with no choice. We renegotiated our pension terms and conditions a couple of years back so that they would be sustainable and affordable in the the medium to long term, while we took a short term hit. Now, without agreement, the T&C are being changed again. It's simply an additional tax on public sector workers, the majority of whom (for my union at least) are below the average wage.

Just? Fair? In line with Kingdom principles? No.

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Forward the New Republic

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Spawn
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# 4867

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You're right that the gospels don't talk specifics - which was, of course, very wise of Our Lord as it leaves us to work out what 'fair and just' looks like in our own given situations, and furthermore, forces the likes of you and me to grudgingly acknowledge that we can both follow Jesus while one of us being crashingly wrong (that's you, by the way [Razz] )

I realise that there's a jocular tone here, but I have to point out that there's nothing grudging about my acceptance of your discipleship even as I think you're wrong about aspects of it. I'd just like to point out that on this thread - self-righteousness and accusations of bad faith have come from supporters of the protesters.

Back to the topic of St Paul's closure. I have no reason to doubt the good faith of the Dean and chapter in making what must feel like a terrible decision about closure. I accept that they believe they are discharging their responsibilities in the light of the advice they have been given.

It seems to me now that the the underlying issue is one of bureaucracy and over-regulation. Perhaps the left will now accept that excessive 'elf 'n' safety' does not lead to the promised land, it leads to ridiculous decisions like the St Paul's closure. I wish St Paul's had the courage to ignore the advice or take the opportunity to register criticism against the regulations which have closed it down.

I might myself man the barricades, if only there was a protest calling for freedom from heavy-handed government and policing, excessive red tape, and the legislative diaorrhea of both Westminster and Brussels.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Back to the topic of St Paul's closure. I have no reason to doubt the good faith of the Dean and chapter in making what must feel like a terrible decision about closure. I accept that they believe they are discharging their responsibilities in the light of the advice they have been given.

Despite what shamwari says above about what the fire service are saying? There is a disconnect here - either the fire brigade are saying two different things to the protesters and the Dean, or the Dean is getting different advice from a different set of people. Which is it?

quote:
It seems to me now that the the underlying issue is one of bureaucracy and over-regulation. Perhaps the left will now accept that excessive 'elf 'n' safety' does not lead to the promised land, it leads to ridiculous decisions like the St Paul's closure. I wish St Paul's had the courage to ignore the advice or take the opportunity to register criticism against the regulations which have closed it down.

I might myself man the barricades, if only there was a protest calling for freedom from heavy-handed government and policing, excessive red tape, and the legislative diaorrhea of both Westminster and Brussels.

This is just bollocks. Middle-class Tory bollocks. The idea the H&S is a leftist plot is a conspiracy touted entirely by the right who know that making things safe costs money. Heavy handed policing is aimed almost entirely at minorities and left-leaning protesters. And the lack of regulations is precisely why the bankers first lost, then stole more of, our money.

Double the size of HMRC and send them out in packs to hunt down tax evaders. That'll do for a start.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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aumbry
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# 436

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Back to the topic of St Paul's closure. I have no reason to doubt the good faith of the Dean and chapter in making what must feel like a terrible decision about closure. I accept that they believe they are discharging their responsibilities in the light of the advice they have been given.

Despite what shamwari says above about what the fire service are saying? There is a disconnect here - either the fire brigade are saying two different things to the protesters and the Dean, or the Dean is getting different advice from a different set of people. Which is it?

quote:
It seems to me now that the the underlying issue is one of bureaucracy and over-regulation. Perhaps the left will now accept that excessive 'elf 'n' safety' does not lead to the promised land, it leads to ridiculous decisions like the St Paul's closure. I wish St Paul's had the courage to ignore the advice or take the opportunity to register criticism against the regulations which have closed it down.

I might myself man the barricades, if only there was a protest calling for freedom from heavy-handed government and policing, excessive red tape, and the legislative diaorrhea of both Westminster and Brussels.

This is just bollocks. Middle-class Tory bollocks. The idea the H&S is a leftist plot is a conspiracy touted entirely by the right who know that making things safe costs money. Heavy handed policing is aimed almost entirely at minorities and left-leaning protesters. And the lack of regulations is precisely why the bankers first lost, then stole more of, our money.

Double the size of HMRC and send them out in packs to hunt down tax evaders. That'll do for a start.

Except the Left under Gordon Brown increased the complexity of the tax legislation to such an extent that the Revenue cannot administer the system let alone investigate tax evaders. It is why so many small tradesmen now do everything on a cash basis because there seems to be a failure to police the black market. I was pleasantly surprised recently when a plumber gave me an invoice with 30 days to pay as opposed to asking for cash - sadly I later learned that he had gone out of business.
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436

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quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Although it does raise the question as to why he did not become a Roman Catholic if he was into being brain washed.

That bigoted statement is unworthy of the Ship.
It was actually meant as a joke. I apologise as I forgot Americans read these posts.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Except the Left under Gordon Brown increased the complexity of the tax legislation to such an extent that the Revenue cannot administer the system let alone investigate tax evaders.

The tax system needs a radical overhaul. Complexity that supposedly cuts off loopholes simply creates more.

The reason my tax return takes ten minutes to fill in is because I don't play the allowances and reliefs game, paying an accountant and stuff like that. If I earned more, I hope I'd take exactly the same attitude.

It shouldn't be difficult. That it is is a failure in the system.

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Forward the New Republic

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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I'm not surprised that there is a protest of this nature at this time, given the way global capitalism is screwing up the lives of ordinary people, but I am perplexed at the venue.

I'm sure people from the Square Mile worship at St Paul's but why aren't the protests at the Bank of England, Lloyds or one of the other market exchanges instead?

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Dinghy Sailor

Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
This is just bollocks. Middle-class Tory bollocks. The idea the H&S is a leftist plot is a conspiracy touted entirely by the right who know that making things safe costs money. Heavy handed policing is aimed almost entirely at minorities and left-leaning protesters. And the lack of regulations is precisely why the bankers first lost, then stole more of, our money.

Remind me, why is it that my church doesn't run a (very popular) firework display anymore? Is it because there were eventually so many legislative and bureaucratic H&S hoops to jump through that we gave up trying, or is it because we're a bunch of right wing bollock-headed bigots?

Wake up and smell the coffee (cooled to 80 degrees to avoid burning) Doc, H&S bureaucracy is not a myth.

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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not surprised that there is a protest of this nature at this time, given the way global capitalism is screwing up the lives of ordinary people, but I am perplexed at the venue.

I'm sure people from the Square Mile worship at St Paul's but why aren't the protests at the Bank of England, Lloyds or one of the other market exchanges instead?

Is it just that they found a spot where they weren't initially moved on?

I want to know where their incomes come from? I couldn't afford to take a month off to camp out in London. If they are on benefits then wouldn't they be actively seeking work - lesving little time for a camping expidition?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Although it does raise the question as to why he did not become a Roman Catholic if he was into being brain washed.

That bigoted statement is unworthy of the Ship.
It was actually meant as a joke. I apologise as I forgot Americans read these posts.
Wow. Insult to injury! [Razz]

I don't know why but I'm kind of encouraged that poor old St Paul's has got itself (or been dragged) into this messy business. Though I feel a bit sorry for the officials who have to cope with it!

It somehow reminds me of Jesus getting dragged into the arguments of the zealots and being pulled into the political fracas of rebellion against authorities. So it seems natural and appropriate that the Church is part of that - even incidentally or accidentally.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Remind me, why is it that my church doesn't run a (very popular) firework display anymore? Is it because there were eventually so many legislative and bureaucratic H&S hoops to jump through that we gave up trying, or is it because we're a bunch of right wing bollock-headed bigots?

Bzzt. Thank you for playing. Your church needs to check its public liability insurance and ask some questions as to why it suddenly cost ten times as much from one year to the next.

Hint: it's not to do with H&S.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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Pre-cambrian
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# 2055

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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
It seems to me now that the the underlying issue is one of bureaucracy and over-regulation. Perhaps the left will now accept that excessive 'elf 'n' safety' does not lead to the promised land, it leads to ridiculous decisions like the St Paul's closure. I wish St Paul's had the courage to ignore the advice or take the opportunity to register criticism against the regulations which have closed it down.

There is much nonsense written about health and safety, one of them being that health and safety regulation bans things or shuts things down. It doesn't. It requires you to be aware, to assess risk, to take responsibility, and to take appropriate action if necessary. If you conclude that action isn't necessary you don't take action, so blaming Health and Safety in most cases is just a convenient excuse for passing the buck about unpopular decisions. Or it's about company lawyers and insurers being completely risk averse.

Last year Lord Young, Mrs Thatcher's Trade & Industry Secretary (so no obvious fan of health and safety) produced a report. It does a good job at distinguishing the myth from the reality and pointing the finger at the actual problems. The following is from his Foreword:
quote:
It’s [litigiousness] a climate of fear compounded by the actions of some health and safety consultants, many without any professional qualifications, who have a perverse incentive to take an overzealous approach to applying the health and safety regulations. As a consequence they employ a goal of eliminating all risk from the workplace instead of setting out the rational, proportionate approach that the Health and Safety at Work etc Act demands. It is a problem exacerbated by insurance companies, some of whom insist on costly and unnecessary health and safety risk assessments from external consultants before they will even consider offering accident insurance policies to small and medium sized businesses.


[ 24. October 2011, 13:02: Message edited by: Pre-cambrian ]

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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."

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Dinghy Sailor

Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Remind me, why is it that my church doesn't run a (very popular) firework display anymore? Is it because there were eventually so many legislative and bureaucratic H&S hoops to jump through that we gave up trying, or is it because we're a bunch of right wing bollock-headed bigots?

Bzzt. Thank you for playing. Your church needs to check its public liability insurance and ask some questions as to why it suddenly cost ten times as much from one year to the next.

Hint: it's not to do with H&S.

Nope, no cigar for you. Better luck next time. Till then, you won't make a problem go away by covering your eyes and saying it's not there.

--------------------
Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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aumbry
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# 436

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Health and Safety probably has grown as a bureaucracy (haven't they all) but one can't help but think that it is usually used as an excuse for lazyness and inertia by petty officials. The real disaster is the culture of litigation which means that risk-aversion becomes an obsession.

I managed the freehold of a small London estate for some years which had in the communal gardens a small children's play area. I recall that we spent more time discussing the dangers of the children's swings than virtually anything else. In the end we were able to breath a sign of relief as no families with children could afford to live in the place.

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Ricardus
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# 8757

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FWIW, a friend of mine works for the HSE. She and most of her department are severely pissed off at the amount of time HSE gets the blame for things being cancelled when it's nothing to do with them.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doc Tor:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
[qb]Remind me, why is it that my church doesn't run a (very popular) firework display anymore? Is it because there were eventually so many legislative and bureaucratic H&S hoops to jump through

[ 24. October 2011, 13:48: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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(sorry, hosts. My internet connection died half-way through the posting process. I'll try again)

quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Remind me, why is it that my church doesn't run a (very popular) firework display anymore? Is it because there were eventually so many legislative and bureaucratic H&S hoops to jump through that we gave up trying, or is it because we're a bunch of right wing bollock-headed bigots?

Bzzt. Thank you for playing. Your church needs to check its public liability insurance and ask some questions as to why it suddenly cost ten times as much from one year to the next.

Hint: it's not to do with H&S.

Nope, no cigar for you. Better luck next time. Till then, you won't make a problem go away by covering your eyes and saying it's not there.
Merely repeating right-wing shibboleths doesn't change why your fireworks display was cancelled.

Why don't you actually do some independent research? H&S legislation, as produced by government has nothing to do with it.

On the other hand, the effect of the rise (and rise) of the 'compensation culture', claims farms, fraud and greed in making up and exaggerating claims all have huge consequences for the cost of insuring things.

Previously, insurance has all been about the shared risk of an accident. Now, it is all about the shared risk of a complicated and expensive claim against that insurance. Which is why, when cars are safer than ever and there are fewer accidents and injuries than ever, car insurance is costing more and more.

Nothing to do with H&S.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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aumbry
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# 436

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To be fair it is the managers at St Pauls Cathedral who are claiming the closure is due to Health and Safety - are they a right wing conspiracy?
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Remind me, why is it that my church doesn't run a (very popular) firework display anymore? Is it because there were eventually so many legislative and bureaucratic H&S hoops to jump through that we gave up trying, or is it because we're a bunch of right wing bollock-headed bigots?

Plenty of places do have bonfires and fireworks. Why don't you ask them how they do it?

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Although it does raise the question as to why he did not become a Roman Catholic if he was into being brain washed.

That bigoted statement is unworthy of the Ship.
It was actually meant as a joke. I apologise as I forgot Americans read these posts.
So after Catholics, Americans, left-wingers, the French, foreigners in general, evangelicals, unemployed people, political protestors, Irish Travellers, teachers, university lecturers and all intellectuals, the working classes, gays, Goths and government employees, who is going to get the Aumbry Flinch of Scorn next?

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Remind me, why is it that my church doesn't run a (very popular) firework display anymore? Is it because there were eventually so many legislative and bureaucratic H&S hoops to jump through that we gave up trying, or is it because we're a bunch of right wing bollock-headed bigots?

Plenty of places do have bonfires and fireworks. Why don't you ask them how they do it?
Easy. Two possibilities - pay a lot of money for insurence, stewards, parking attendands, police support etc (and charge high ticket prices). Be told what you can and can't do, where you can and can't do it, as a result of yor own risk assessment which you have to submit to the Local Authority and a special committee comprising the Senior Local Policeman, Fire Officer, Ambulance Person etc. Pay for the privilege. Recognise that what you did for 20 years until last year, no longer applies.

Or, just do it without "permission" and see what happens. Be prepared to pay more in fines unless you happen to have a chum or a wife in a senior post in the council. Then it's all free.

Perhaps I'm glad I moved from between wood and water!

[ 24. October 2011, 14:24: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Although it does raise the question as to why he did not become a Roman Catholic if he was into being brain washed.

That bigoted statement is unworthy of the Ship.
It was actually meant as a joke. I apologise as I forgot Americans read these posts.
So after Catholics, Americans, left-wingers, the French, foreigners in general, evangelicals, unemployed people, political protestors, Irish Travellers, teachers, university lecturers and all intellectuals, the working classes, gays, Goths and government employees, who is going to get the Aumbry Flinch of Scorn next?
ESTATE AGENTS
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Although it does raise the question as to why he did not become a Roman Catholic if he was into being brain washed.

That bigoted statement is unworthy of the Ship.
It was actually meant as a joke. I apologise as I forgot Americans read these posts.
So after Catholics, Americans, left-wingers, the French, foreigners in general, evangelicals, unemployed people, political protestors, Irish Travellers, teachers, university lecturers and all intellectuals, the working classes, gays, Goths and government employees, who is going to get the Aumbry Flinch of Scorn next?
ESTATE AGENTS
Aumbries? Who needs that kind of Church furniture? [Biased]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
This is just bollocks. Middle-class Tory bollocks. The idea the H&S is a leftist plot is a conspiracy touted entirely by the right who know that making things safe costs money. Heavy handed policing is aimed almost entirely at minorities and left-leaning protesters. And the lack of regulations is precisely why the bankers first lost, then stole more of, our money.

Remind me, why is it that my church doesn't run a (very popular) firework display anymore? Is it because there were eventually so many legislative and bureaucratic H&S hoops to jump through that we gave up trying, or is it because we're a bunch of right wing bollock-headed bigots?

Wake up and smell the coffee (cooled to 80 degrees to avoid burning) Doc, H&S bureaucracy is not a myth.

It's political-correctness gone mad!

--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
...and charge high ticket prices...

No admission charged here

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Dinghy Sailor

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For H&S bureaucracy, face it: it doesn't matter whether it's in the act or whether the act has merely encouraged the parasitic culture of petty bureaucracy or enabled a lazy official somewhere down the chain, the effect is the same for the end user, i.e. the guy at the bottom.

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
It's political-correctness gone mad!

Since that's got nothing to do with anything I posted, I have no idea what you're talking about unless you're making a cheap shot, trying to stereotype me rather than deal with the content of my posts. When I get to heaven, I'll tell Martin Luther King that you've been stereotyping and he'll get angry. If you're not careful, you'll make baby Jesus cry.

--------------------
Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
For H&S bureaucracy, face it: it doesn't matter whether it's in the act or whether the act has merely encouraged the parasitic culture of petty bureaucracy or enabled a lazy official somewhere down the chain, the effect is the same for the end user, i.e. the guy at the bottom.

Well, it might not matter to you, because you'd much rather moan on about how the county's gone to the dogs...

There is an alternative, of course, which is to campaign to get claim farming made illegal, for insurance assessors to do their jobs properly, for frauds and cheats to be subject to civil or criminal prosecutions, which would drive insurance premiums down (be they for household contents, motoring or public liability).

But you're right, it sounds far too much like common sense and hard work to actually direct your ire in the right direction, as opposed towards the people who do their damnedest to stop us from being killed or maimed because some muppet has decided to cut corners because it's cheaper.

As you were... [Roll Eyes]

So - back to the OP. What's probably happened is that St Paul's insurers have said they'll refuse liability if someone gets injured entering or leaving the building, despite that the fire service are happy with the arrangements made. Some clarification would be nice.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I listened in to an hours phone in on Sat night. A spokesperson for the protestors was repeated asked to specify what their demands were. She repeatedly evaded the question. Eventually it turned out that they were protesting in the hope of forming a "democratic forum" which would then discuss what they should be demanding.

Yes, that corresponds to what the Guardian reports here.

To be honest, despite my instinctive lefty urge to side with anyone protesting against the City, this seems pretty silly. I've no objection to people experimenting with alternative ways to organise society but I don't see why they should experiment at someone else's expense (in this case, St Paul's).

And if you're going to make demands from society - which is usually why you inconvenience them by means of a demo - then you should at least have some idea of what those demands are.
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
For H&S bureaucracy, face it: it doesn't matter whether it's in the act or whether the act has merely encouraged the parasitic culture of petty bureaucracy or enabled a lazy official somewhere down the chain, the effect is the same for the end user, i.e. the guy at the bottom.

But it does make a difference in this case, as I can see at least three possibilities:

  1. St Paul's has genuine well-founded H&S concerns, and the protesters are either lying or misrepresenting the situation. (e.g. The Fire Service could have told them that the camp isn't itself a fire hazard - in the sense that it's not going to burst into flame - but not that it doesn't obstruct the fire safety procedures of St Paul's. (I hope you can disentangle my double negatives there.))
  2. St Paul's Health and Safety officials are over-zealous.
  3. St Paul's are using Health and Safety as a face-saving excuse to justify forcing the protesters to move on.

If (1) is the case, then my vestigial sympathies with the protesters dissipate entirely.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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coniunx
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# 15313

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
...I can see at least three possibilities:

  1. St Paul's has genuine well-founded H&S concerns, and the protesters are either lying or misrepresenting the situation. (e.g. The Fire Service could have told them that the camp isn't itself a fire hazard - in the sense that it's not going to burst into flame - but not that it doesn't obstruct the fire safety procedures of St Paul's. (I hope you can disentangle my double negatives there.))
  2. St Paul's Health and Safety officials are over-zealous.
  3. St Paul's are using Health and Safety as a face-saving excuse to justify forcing the protesters to move on.

If (1) is the case, then my vestigial sympathies with the protesters dissipate entirely.

It's a pity St Paul's doesn't make it entirely clear why they are claiming health and safety risk as the issue.

Everyone's quoting the Fire Brigade as saying there's no risk - but they aren't the arbiter of all risk, only of fire related risk. (You wouldn't call them in to check the risk of disease spreading in a flu outbreak, for example). The fact that the Fire Brigade has spoken on fire matters only covers off one possible aspect of risk.

(And of course health and safety concern isn't limited to what has been the subject of legislation: that's one of the weasel-word approaches to the question. Are people only to be concerned for the safety of others if the legislation says so? Could any Christian read the parable of the Good Samaritan, and then make that argument?)

It's actually far more likely that their insurer has told them they are not insured if they open in these circumstances, which isn't actually health and safety, but often confused with it - especially by insurance companies.

The question then would be why the insurance company said so.

And it doesn't take an awful lot of cynicism to suspect that the insurance company in question might have an interest in discrediting protests against the financial system....

--------------------
--
Coniunx

Posts: 250 | From: Nottingham | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Dinghy Sailor

Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
For H&S bureaucracy, face it: it doesn't matter whether it's in the act or whether the act has merely encouraged the parasitic culture of petty bureaucracy or enabled a lazy official somewhere down the chain, the effect is the same for the end user, i.e. the guy at the bottom.

Well, it might not matter to you, because you'd much rather moan on about how the county's gone to the dogs...
Baseless insult in place of reason? It must be my lucky day [Roll Eyes] My time's filled with doing quite enough things for other people for free, thankyouverymuch, made all the harder by people shoving paper under my nose, and by people who refuse to recognise that well-meaning laws and policies might just have unintended, undesirable consequences.

--------------------
Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Garden Hermit
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I am struck by the attitude to business in Ireland and the Isle of Man.

Both are desperate for businesses to come there, and therefore the taxes are incredible low on profits.

The argument is that the firms will create jobs and that taxes will be paid on the earnings.

This view is shared by all, even if they are not well off.

Pax et Bonum

Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
It's political-correctness gone mad!

Since that's got nothing to do with anything I posted, I have no idea what you're talking about unless you're making a cheap shot, trying to stereotype me rather than deal with the content of my posts. When I get to heaven, I'll tell Martin Luther King that you've been stereotyping and he'll get angry. If you're not careful, you'll make baby Jesus cry.
I do apologise. I gave the wrong link. I meant to link to this piece of stand-up by Stewart Lee where he talks about Health and Safety. I meant no bad will, just was offering a bit of humour.

--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Baseless insult in place of reason?

Baseless? Hardly. You were the one who weighed in with "H&S banned my firework display", when in all probability (as ken pointed out, other people still manage to run displays perfectly well) it has nothing to do with H&S laws.

If it makes you feel better, perhaps it was because they just hate Christians.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Dinghy Sailor

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Baseless insult in place of reason?

Baseless? Hardly. You were the one who weighed in with "H&S banned my firework display",
That's funny, you're quoting me but the words in the quotes aren't what I said. How did that happen? [Confused]

I think we've seen exactly how much worth to assign to your contributions to this thread.

--------------------
Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Baseless insult in place of reason?

Baseless? Hardly. You were the one who weighed in with "H&S banned my firework display",
That's funny, you're quoting me but the words in the quotes aren't what I said. How did that happen? [Confused]

I think we've seen exactly how much worth to assign to your contributions to this thread.

Eh? You're smart enough to use a computer but not smart enough to spot a paraphrase?

quote:
Remind me, why is it that my church doesn't run a (very popular) firework display anymore? Is it because there were eventually so many legislative and bureaucratic H&S hoops to jump through that we gave up trying, or is it because we're a bunch of right wing bollock-headed bigots?
So, in summary: you said your church couldn't run its firework display any more and cited H&S legislation and bureaucracy. I said it was tosh and it was much more likely problems with obtaining appropriate public liability insurance which has nothing to do with the HSE or the legislation they enforce. You said yah boo sucks. I pointed out the reasons why public liability insurance (in common with other forms of insurance) costs so much. You said yah boo sucks again, and suddenly I've lost all credibility, even after a valiant attempt to drag the thread back on topic? Uh huh.

I'm reasonably certain we've both got better things to be doing on a Monday night. Whatever it is, enjoy.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
PaulBC
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# 13712

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Is nolt the church free from anti establishment forces ? Remember without the establishment the civilizede world would descend into chaos . And I grew up the 1960s ?!!!!!!!!!! But even so the church must be respected or maybe we all go to the temple of the 18 holes on Sunday !!!!
Here's to a peaceful and safe resolution. [Votive] [Smile] [Angel]

--------------------
"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8

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Dinghy Sailor

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Baseless insult in place of reason?

Baseless? Hardly. You were the one who weighed in with "H&S banned my firework display",
That's funny, you're quoting me but the words in the quotes aren't what I said. How did that happen? [Confused]

I think we've seen exactly how much worth to assign to your contributions to this thread.

Eh? You're smart enough to use a computer but not smart enough to spot a paraphrase?
A paraphrase that contains a different meaning from the original? I suggest you stick to actual quotes in the future, your paraphrasing skills are somewhat lacking.

--------------------
Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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comet

Snowball in Hell
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hey Doc Tor and Dinghy Sailor - get a room. I can't see the otherwise interesting conversation with all of your pecker-waving.

--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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justlooking
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# 12079

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St Paul's churchyard has a long history as a place where public grievances could be aired

From the Guide to St Paul's

quote:
Near by, in the cathedral's north-east churchyard, a plaque marks the location of St Paul's Cross, a popular centre of news and comment, where during the reformation William Tyndale's New Testament was burned because it was in English, and where generations of Londoners played their role in fomenting public opinion.
So the camp is following a long tradition.

[ 25. October 2011, 10:32: Message edited by: justlooking ]

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
St Paul's churchyard has a long history as a place where public grievances could be aired

From the Guide to St Paul's

quote:
Near by, in the cathedral's north-east churchyard, a plaque marks the location of St Paul's Cross, a popular centre of news and comment, where during the reformation William Tyndale's New Testament was burned because it was in English, and where generations of Londoners played their role in fomenting public opinion.
So the camp is following a long tradition.
That's really interesting justlooking. I hope there won't be any Bible burning this time!

I have just heard on the radio that only one-in-ten of the tents are occupied at night. (According to police thermal imaging cameras) there is some discussion of police 'confiscating' the tents which are left unoccupied.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
I am struck by the attitude to business in Ireland and the Isle of Man.

Both are desperate for businesses to come there, and therefore the taxes are incredible low on profits.

The argument is that the firms will create jobs and that taxes will be paid on the earnings.

This view is shared by all, even if they are not well off.

Pax et Bonum

Show me.

I'm tired of mere assertions on this board.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged



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