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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: St Paul's To Close
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Ellis Bell
Shipmate
# 16348
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Posted
quote:
Violent protests are genuinely more effective.
That certainly isn't the lesson from the Civil Rights Movement here in the states.
Posts: 88 | From: New York City | Registered: Apr 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I doubt that in many cases these people are there because an organization with a mailing list or phone bank sent messages to its members to show up at such-and-such a place and time to demonstrate. That's a difference, isn't it?
Nope - the speed of Twitter and Facebook have changed all that. No need for a mailing list these days.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon
One woman wrote to the newspaper that her primary reason to join the demonstration is the fact that corporations can buy congressmen. That's worth demonstrating about, it seems to me.
Very laudable. I'm sure she feels better for it.
But what prospect do you think there is that as a result any corporation will not offer the bribe it was going to or any corrupt politician will not take it?
quote:
Responded by Ellis Bell to my previous post
This is precisely what ActUp did in the late '80s and early '90s with AIDS/HIV, although in their instance they blamed the State for not funding research as well as the medical establishment for ignoring the disease.
But I've never heard of ActUp. And I keep fairly up-to-date on current affairs. So I'm tempted to say that demonstrates my point. Who are they? Have they found a cure for AIDS?
Whoever they are, if all they ever did was say somebody else ought to, then I don't respect them.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Ellis Bell
Shipmate
# 16348
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Posted
[QUOTE] But I've never heard of ActUp. And I keep fairly up-to-date on current affairs. [QUOTE]
Just because you're ignorant of Act Up's contribution doesn't deny the that fact that they made a significant impact. It just show's you're unaware. There's a Wikipedia article if you're interested.
Posts: 88 | From: New York City | Registered: Apr 2011
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
]I don't know, I kind of enjoyed Giles Fraser's intervention at the weekend. He used to be a member of the SWP [/QB]
Just about says it all.
Although it does raise the question as to why he did not become a Roman Catholic if he was into being brain washed.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
"Occupy Toronto Protest Chaplains"
That would be one way to go, but not a way that i fear the Dean and Chapter of St Pauls are mindful to go. Not yet.
Because the power is in money and that...in spite of our objections...is what drives the respectable mess that we wish to preserve.
Oh that someone would have the ooomph to think creatively here. This is an opportunity and it will pass all too soon. God Help the people in St Pauls as they pray tonight.
For without His help, then all that our country will see is a Cathedral responding to their own income being threatened,
The rest could be sorted, It's not beyond the ken of folk to sort safety. If there's a will . The problem is that there is no will.
The King is looking decidedly naked
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
But then what kind of protest does work? Shall we all write a letter to our MP?
Mass demonstrations in Eastern Europe and in the Arab worldhave been the catalyst for regime change. But of course mass demonstrations can't have a detailed programme, they can only be a more or less inchoate expression of popular feeling. Back in the days, that is why marxist parties were always seeking to lead demonstrations -- to supply the programme.
Mass protests in Eastern Europe and the Arab world are a very different thing from the sort of protests we're talking about. Here if you want regime change you can vote. If you're living under tyranny mass protest is the only way you can change things.
quote:
I don't have an answer to all this. I don't know what the Occupy protesters will achieve. Perhaps the best that they can do by being there and hanging on, is to express a fairly widespread feeling that something is wrong with the distribution of wealth and that people are unhappy about it and that they are continuing to be unhappy about it.
That may not be much, but it certainly is more than sitting at home doing nothing will achieve.
They won't achieve anything because this is not a mass movement. It's not a mass movement because the aims are nonsense.
[ 21. October 2011, 16:05: Message edited by: Spawn ]
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
God Help the people in St Pauls as they pray tonight.
For without His help, then all that our country will see is a Cathedral responding to their own income being threatened,
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Garden Hermit
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# 109
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Posted
To Angloid..
No the present coalition Government is not trying to re-distribute wealth, they are trying to prevent a meltdown in a) UK economy b) European economy.
The Banks have lent too much money to individuals to buy houses ( eg 8 times gross salary) and too much money to Governments to spend.
I don't really think anyone knows how to go from here, but to suggest that we all take to the streets like the Greeks etc. and smash the whole system is totally irresponsible.
It would be nice to build a sustainable economy but from this point in time it doesn't seem achievable.
To quote an Irish joke....A man who was lost asked a local Irish man which way was Dublin.
He replied 'Well its not a good idea starting from here'.
Same with the economy.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I endorse Damien Thompson
Health and Safety claims another victim.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
No the present coalition Government is not trying to re-distribute wealth, they are trying to prevent a meltdown in a) UK economy b) European economy.
If a meltdown is imminent surely the sensible thing is to move the things most likely to melt away from the fire first. The opposite seems to be happening.
quote:
The Banks have lent too much money to individuals to buy houses ( eg 8 times gross salary) and too much money to Governments to spend.
With the encouragement of all governments since Thatcher. Especially since she made it difficult or impossible to rent social housing and trumpeted home ownership as a desirable aim.
There is a strong case for governments investing in long-term projects in a time of recession, and borrowing in order to do so. The trouble is, much government spending has been frittering away plugging the holes that arise from short-term policies.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ellis Bell:
quote:
Violent protests are genuinely more effective.
That certainly isn't the lesson from the Civil Rights Movement here in the states.
Remind me, was it the Arkansas National Guard or the 101st Airborne that desegregated high schools in Little Rock?
Whoever it was it was certainly a credible threat of violence.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I endorse Damien Thompson
Don't worry, you'll grow out of it.
quote:
Health and Safety claims another victim.
Or rather the government have been putting the squeeze on some of the clergy to get them to sign up to their view of things.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Although it does raise the question as to why he did not become a Roman Catholic if he was into being brain washed.
That bigoted statement is unworthy of the Ship.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Or rather the government have been putting the squeeze on some of the clergy to get them to sign up to their view of things.
Surely this closure gives far more publicity to the campers?
Does St Paul's not have other doors they could use for public entrances?
I hope no weddings are planned for this weekend!
<typo>
[ 21. October 2011, 16:49: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Big Oil
Shipmate
# 15713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Tangent and Rant Alert
quote:
From Big Oil's OP
I think to close down because of a few prophetic souls objecting to the injustice of the economic system, sends all the wrong messages.
Are we really saying these people are 'prophetic'?
To say something is prophetic is to say that God has the speaker's ear, and that the speaker has heard the specific voice of God to the occasion and passed it on.
It is not 'prophetic' just to be outspoken, controversial, or to say things that anyone can work out, but hasn't done, doesn't agree with or might find disturbing. It may be a good thing or a bad thing. It may be courageous. It may be stupid. But it is not 'prophetic'. It is a serious misuse of the word.
By labeling them "prophetic" I was simply drawing attention to the striking parallel between some of their rhetoric and some of, say, Micah's rhetoric. There was a clear concern amongst the prophets for economic justice. Economic systems that made the lot of the poor more difficult and provided comfort for the powerful were condemned. If I understand these protestors correctly, they are saying the same of global capitalism. The world just got poorer, and we're all being asked to pay the bill. But those with power have made themselves immune to the consequences, threatening to run their banks from abroad if they're not allowed to keep their un-earned bonuses. Inflating their salaries ahead of inflation while they lay off junior staff and demand more from those left in work. If capitalism can't be made to right this kind of iniquity then it must be swept away by some kind of catastophy.
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"The Gulf of Mexico is a very big ocean. The amount of volume of oil and dispersant we are putting into it is tiny in relation to the total water volume." - Tony Hayward
Posts: 160 | From: bp | Registered: Jun 2010
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
Ken, what are you smoking today? Two ridiculous interventions in a row. I listen carefully to what you say on many subjects, but when it comes to politics your opinions are really unreliable.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Remind me, was it the Arkansas National Guard or the 101st Airborne that desegregated high schools in Little Rock?
Whoever it was it was certainly a credible threat of violence.
That was hardly the same thing as violent protest. The 101st Airborne desegregated the school on Presidential order.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Or rather the government have been putting the squeeze on some of the clergy to get them to sign up to their view of things.
You've been around long enough to know that is simply not what happens. Do you really reckon the Government is that worried about a few hundred protesters? In fact, the more violent protests there are, the more strikes there are the bigger the PR gain for the government's policies.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Ken, what are you smoking today? Two ridiculous interventions in a row. I listen carefully to what you say on many subjects, but when it comes to politics your opinions are really unreliable.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Remind me, was it the Arkansas National Guard or the 101st Airborne that desegregated high schools in Little Rock?
Whoever it was it was certainly a credible threat of violence.
That was hardly the same thing as violent protest. The 101st Airborne desegregated the school on Presidential order.
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Or rather the government have been putting the squeeze on some of the clergy to get them to sign up to their view of things.
You've been around long enough to know that is simply not what happens. Do you really reckon the Government is that worried about a few hundred protesters? In fact, the more violent protests there are, the more strikes there are the bigger the PR gain for the government's policies.
I'll leave those quotes up in full. Just because you disagree with ken's politics (a separate question to whether you understand ken's politics, mind) doesn't mean that his analysis can simply be dismissed with reactionary, Tory clap-trap insults regarding his drug of choice. If he had too many Pimms, so what? Play the ball.
Firstly, the civil rights movement in the US was born and came of age in violence. Pretty much how our own indigenous civil rights movement was born, too. Peterloo massacre, General Strike, Cable Street - it runs like a thread throughout our history.
Secondly, I'm someone with a strike ballot form uncompleted in my in-tray. If I thought for a moment I was playing into the government's strategy by voting Yes, I'd vote No. But withdrawing my labour is pretty much the last thing I'm able to do, so, having discussed with my colleagues, we're voting to down tools. Then we'll have a bloody sight more than a couple of hundred protesters on the street.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Ellis Bell:
quote:
Violent protests are genuinely more effective.
That certainly isn't the lesson from the Civil Rights Movement here in the states.
Remind me, was it the Arkansas National Guard or the 101st Airborne that desegregated high schools in Little Rock?
Whoever it was it was certainly a credible threat of violence.
and would they have even known to pay attention without the work of the peaceful protestors such as the Freedom Riders and on an on?
sometimes, someone needs to stand up and say the system isn't working. this doesn't mean that the one who stands up is beholden to have all the answers. I am not an economist, I don't know how to fix our economic problems. but I can definitively say that something is not working and that i and my family are suffering for it. since I have no solution, am I just to suck it up and deal? That's ridiculous.
if enough people stand up and say something is wrong, then the world pays attention. Like the national guard in alabama, the economists and politicians need to be told their is a problem by enough loud voices to realize how many people it is impacting and therefore that it needs fixing.
As for the protesters drowning out the voices of those who really need help - since when did the poor really have a voice anyway?
I make less than $12K a year and as Ship veterans know I spent a year homeless a few years back. my sons and I currently live on the charity of friends. I have something to say. But I can't exactly afford a plane ticket to Wall Street. I can't afford to take the time away from work. I have children to feed who can't be left alone as I go winging off to be "heard".
The protestors may not be me, but I'm quite thankful they are putting themselves out there while I can't.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'll leave those quotes up in full.
That's fine by me, but my understanding is that the hosts read every word. If I have transgressed, I don't think they'll need you to indicate it.
quote:
Just because you disagree with ken's politics (a separate question to whether you understand ken's politics, mind) doesn't mean that his analysis can simply be dismissed with reactionary, Tory clap-trap insults regarding his drug of choice. If he had too many Pimms, so what? Play the ball.
I'm not sure you're following your own advice with the gratuitous 'reactionary, Tory clap-trap'. I don't think he had too many Pimms I just think lefties tend to froth at the mouth rather than engage their brains. If I was guilty of playing the man, then I certainly played the ball as well and addressed the points he made.
quote:
Secondly, I'm someone with a strike ballot form uncompleted in my in-tray. If I thought for a moment I was playing into the government's strategy by voting Yes, I'd vote No. But withdrawing my labour is pretty much the last thing I'm able to do, so, having discussed with my colleagues, we're voting to down tools. Then we'll have a bloody sight more than a couple of hundred protesters on the street.
Yes for a day or two. And there'll be the inevitable violence and a huge amount of inconvenience to other struggling hard-working people and you'll have lost any chance of any public sympathy.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Mass protests in Eastern Europe and the Arab world are a very different thing from the sort of protests we're talking about. Here if you want regime change you can vote. If you're living under tyranny mass protest is the only way you can change things.
We certainly aren't suffering the way people in Libya have suffered under Qaddafi. But protest is an extremely important part of the political process in democratic republics. Voting may be how things ultimately change, but protest is sometimes what gets people thinking they need to vote a different way.
We aren't living "tyranny" here. But we do have a concentration of wealth and power in the hands of a remarkably small group of people, and it will take protests like the Occupy movement to get people off their asses and into the voting booths to change things.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Here if you want regime change you can vote.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
For which bunch of self-serving b****ds can run the capitalist system most efficiently! Anybody who hints at an alternative is silenced pretty effectively.
As for the Cathedral's excuse of health and safety - my a**e.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I wasn't suggesting you'd broken a Commandment. I was suggesting that Shippies could savour your missing the point a second time around.
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Secondly, I'm someone with a strike ballot form uncompleted in my in-tray. If I thought for a moment I was playing into the government's strategy by voting Yes, I'd vote No. But withdrawing my labour is pretty much the last thing I'm able to do, so, having discussed with my colleagues, we're voting to down tools. Then we'll have a bloody sight more than a couple of hundred protesters on the street.
Yes for a day or two. And there'll be the inevitable violence and a huge amount of inconvenience to other struggling hard-working people and you'll have lost any chance of any public sympathy.
Ah yes, the 'hard working people and the public sympathy card'.
I hate to break it to you, but we are the hard-working people and the public. Unison (of which I am a member) are the poor (quite literally) bastards who sweep your streets, look after your kids and your parents and lots of other low-paid jobs that mean we end up with (on average) an oh-so-gold plated pension of around three grand a year. For which, we are now informed, we have to work longer for and take a pay cut to achieve despite having already negotiated new fully-costed and entirely affordable pension arrangements only a couple of years back.
Of course, we're supposed to be grateful we still have jobs, so will take any amount of eroding our terms and conditions, wages and hours while our rulers shovel cash at the bankers who fucked it up in the first place.
Well, excuse me for thinking that's the wrong way round. Protest is supposed to cause inconvenience. Trade union rallies are usually very well stewarded, but if violence comes I'm sure we'll be prepared for it - thank you for your concern, but we'll be fine, thanks. (I might invest in a head-cam just in case, because that seems to be the only way of bringing the authorities to account these days.)
What I fail to grasp is why you don't get angry about this. I'm hardly a dyed-in-the-wool class warrior, and I'm livid.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
We certainly aren't suffering the way people in Libya have suffered under Qaddafi. But protest is an extremely important part of the political process in democratic republics.
That was my point. You can't realistically compare protest under a tyranny and protest in a democracy (though not all those who live in democracies live in 'republics').
quote:
Voting may be how things ultimately change, but protest is sometimes what gets people thinking they need to vote a different way.
Accepted, but protesters need to resist any attempts to prevail over the democratic will of the people as expressed through the ballot box. As I have pointed out such overreaching is counterproductive.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I...
You lost my sympathy here. You bloody lucky sod you'll still end up with a better pension than most people.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
For which bunch of self-serving b****ds can run the capitalist system most efficiently! Anybody who hints at an alternative is silenced pretty effectively.
No-one silences them, it's just that no-one agrees with them.
quote:
As for the Cathedral's excuse of health and safety - my a**e.
Here I agree with you.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I...
You lost my sympathy here. You bloody lucky sod you'll still end up with a better pension than most people.
Surprisingly enough, I care very little about your sympathy. If there was negative caring, I'd be there - God forbid you should ever agree with me about anything, because that'd be a sure sign I'm wrong.
So why don't you get off your arse, join a union and vote for a government that might let you save for a pension that will actually provide for your old age, rather than relying on the hard-working tax payers of the country to keep you?
Oh, that's right. It's too late for you. It's too late for me too, but I'm not crying into my Pimms and letting my kids shoulder the whole burden of a fucked-up economic system that systematically steals off the poor and gives to the rich.
See you at the barricades, comrade.
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Forward the New Republic
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
This appeared in the comments of Angloid's link.
quote:
St Pauls Trustees:
Chairman
Sir John Stuttard PWC partner, Former Lord Mayor of London.
Trustees
The Right Reverend Graeme Knowles, Dean of St Paul’s
Dame Helen Alexander DBE Deputy chair of the CBI, director of Centrica plc
Lord Blair of Boughton Former Metropolitan Police Commissioner
Roger Gifford Investment banker, big in City of London
John Harvey – Not clearly identified
Joyce Hytner OBE – Theatre director
Gavin Ralston Global Head of Product and leading international asset manager at Schroder Investment Management
Carol Sergeant CBE – Chief Risk Director at Lloyds TSB, formerly Managing Director for Regulatory Process and Risk at the FSA
John Spence OBE – Former Managing Director, Business Banking, LloydsTSB
Thats not the church, that sounds rather like our target no?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
So St Pauls trustees are a load of bankers?
Who knew?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Surprisingly enough, I care very little about your sympathy. If there was negative caring, I'd be there - God forbid you should ever agree with me about anything, because that'd be a sure sign I'm wrong.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Nice line. I like the bit about 'negative caring'.
quote:
Oh, that's right. It's too late for you. It's too late for me too, but I'm not crying into my Pimms and letting my kids shoulder the whole burden of a fucked-up economic system that systematically steals off the poor and gives to the rich.
What I'm doing for my kids is making sure by working that I pay down my mortgage so I can leave them something. I'll probably be working all my life but I have no problem with that. My problem with this government is that they're still borrowing too much to spend money they don't have.
I don't live my life in envy of the rich, I aspire for the sake of my family to be more comfortable financially. And if I ever get there, I won't have stolen from anybody.
[ 21. October 2011, 19:55: Message edited by: Spawn ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
For which bunch of self-serving b****ds can run the capitalist system most efficiently! Anybody who hints at an alternative is silenced pretty effectively.
No-one silences them, it's just that no-one agrees with them.
How easy is it for the alternative voice to get a hearing in our overwhelmingly right-wing media?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
I don't live my life in envy of the rich
But you do - you want to be one of them.
And you also hope you won't need the capital in your property to keep you in your old age either. Ever wondered where that capital came from?
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Forward the New Republic
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
As for the Cathedral's excuse of health and safety - my a**e.
Here I agree with you.
And I with you. The cathedral should on the one hand endeavor to give them aid and comfort-- even sanctuary if it became necessary-- as long as they are peaceable; but on the other hand make it clear that nothing must interfere with worship or access of worshippers to the building. This activity is the mainspring or lifeblood for whatever sympathy may be extended. They should continue it steadfastly and invite all to participate. I am confident that some will who may never have done it before.
Not too long ago, someone here mentioned a certain inner-city church in Liverpool which had remained carefully untouched by rioters wreaking havoc with most other buildings in its neighborhood, because it had such a clear reputation of understanding their plight and ministering to the poor and exploited. Let us pray that St. Paul's Cathedral has earned enough of the same good will as to command similar respect. If not, it had better start now.
[ 21. October 2011, 20:18: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
What makes everyone think that because the press says something that everyone thinks like that.
The Pope says no contraception, english Catholics take an opposite view.
I find that people are not indoctrinated easily.. eg Soviet Russia/Zimbabwe/Libya etc.
Labour Politicians have nearly all been to
Public Schools and all know lots about off-shore accounts. John Prescott was middle class although he often played the 'working-class-lad' ploy.
If you don't like Capitalism free yourself from wanting all its outputs like 'Degrees' instead of Education, or Cars costing more than £7000, or HD ready plasma TVs.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
How easy is it for the alternative voice to get a hearing in our overwhelmingly right-wing media?
That's just unthinking. Take the media as a whole, and there are plenty of platforms for diverse views. I would describe the broadcasting media as overwhelmingly left-of-centre. This is to say nothing of Twitter, Facebook and blogs. No-one is being silenced. They simply don't persuade.
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
I don't live my life in envy of the rich
But you do - you want to be one of them.
No read what I said. I aspire to a level of comfort for my family, not riches. It is an aspiration to a life without worry, rather than one lived with wealth.
You are the one that envies the rich because you want to take what they have.
quote:
And you also hope you won't need the capital in your property to keep you in your old age either. Ever wondered where that capital came from?
I'm not sure what you mean? The capital in my house comes from the labour of myself and my wife.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Labour Politicians have nearly all been to
Public Schools and all know lots about off-shore accounts. John Prescott was middle class although he often played the 'working-class-lad' ploy.
And your point is?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
I don't live my life in envy of the rich
But you do - you want to be one of them.
No read what I said. I aspire to a level of comfort for my family, not riches. It is an aspiration to a life without worry, rather than one lived with wealth.
You are the one that envies the rich because you want to take what they have.
Nope. I want them to stop stealing from us. I want them to stop manipulating the political system that's supposed to serve us and instead serves them. I want them to pay their share rather than hiding it from the tax man. I want them to take responsibility for what they've done.
If, like me, you believe in a final judgement, how could anyone possibly envy them?
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
And you also hope you won't need the capital in your property to keep you in your old age either. Ever wondered where that capital came from?
I'm not sure what you mean? The capital in my house comes from the labour of myself and my wife.
Nope. My house has 'earned' more money than I have in the 18 years we've lived in it. That had nothing to do with my labour. The increase in yours has nothing to do with your labour either. The capital of your house - the bit over and above what you paid for it - came out of the pockets of your children. And mine. And every poor bastard who'd like to buy a house but can't.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Nope. I want them to stop stealing from us. I want them to stop manipulating the political system that's supposed to serve us and instead serves them. I want them to pay their share rather than hiding it from the tax man. I want them to take responsibility for what they've done.
Hang on a second, you are repeating this point that someone is stealing from you and they have done something to you? How does that work? Are the rich getting something that is rightfully yours by underhand means? Are all the rich failing to pay their taxes? At the 50 per cent rate, I have no problem with them legally avoiding tax - that seems to me a cut-off point when the state is imposing penalities on wealth, rather than taxing reasonably.
quote:
If, like me, you believe in a final judgement, how could anyone possibly envy them?
What are you saying here? The rich (as a group) are not worthy of salvation? Are particularly deserving of condemnation?
quote:
Nope. My house has 'earned' more money than I have in the 18 years we've lived in it. That had nothing to do with my labour. The increase in yours has nothing to do with your labour either. The capital of your house - the bit over and above what you paid for it - came out of the pockets of your children. And mine. And every poor bastard who'd like to buy a house but can't.
I see what you mean. But it doesn't make sense. If you don't have a regulated free market (which we have at the moment), your alternatives are between a more regulated market and a planned economy. Given that the latter equals stagnation and ruination, you will still have the sort of situation you point to in rising house prices. They will however correct themselves from time to time. But no-one else is paying the price except me. The idea that because something rises in value, someone else is being cheated out of something of value is a very strange one. Seems to be born of a strange envy from someone who is evidently reasonably well-off both in housing and pension terms. What were you striking about again?
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Dear Spawn,
I'm left with two options: either you're deliberately being obtuse, or you genuinely don't know how your own world works.
Anyway, congratulations on being a useful idiot for the plutocrats. I hope you'll be very happy together.
Oh, and you might want to dust the cobwebs off your Bible at some point and see what that bloke Jesus says about rich people. You appear to be a touch heterodox.
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Forward the New Republic
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Dear Spawn,
I'm left with two options: either you're deliberately being obtuse, or you genuinely don't know how your own world works.
What's this with 'your own world'?
It strikes me that you're the one living in a fantasy land. In fact it's not just you, with your strange idea that the rich (as a group) are stealing from you. Other posts have suggested that alternative voices are being silenced, or that the govnerment is putting pressure on the dean and chapter of St Paul's, or that there are strategies of 'divide and rule' being operated. True paranoia.
quote:
Oh, and you might want to dust the cobwebs off your Bible at some point and see what that bloke Jesus says about rich people. You appear to be a touch heterodox.
It always strikes me as odd that so-called liberals become literalistic about certain passages in the Bible when they're so very free with the rest of it.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Ellis Bell
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# 16348
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Posted
According to the Occupy folks, Health and Safety had no contact with St. Pauls...."We have been advised by Health and Safety Manager Rachel Sambal that the City of London’s Health and Safety Team have had no contact with St Paul’s Cathedral regarding health and safety issues at the site."
Posts: 88 | From: New York City | Registered: Apr 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ellis Bell:
According to the Occupy folks, Health and Safety had no contact with St. Pauls...."We have been advised by Health and Safety Manager Rachel Sambal that the City of London’s Health and Safety Team have had no contact with St Paul’s Cathedral regarding health and safety issues at the site."
So it's an excuse?
Why close then?
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
It always strikes me as odd that so-called liberals become literalistic about certain passages in the Bible when they're so very free with the rest of it.
It always strikes me that so-call evangelicals become very free with the word 'liberal' when someone else points out what's actually in the Bible.
I notice you have again magnificently avoided engaging with the point. What Jesus says about the rich and what you say about the rich are at odds. I'm sticking with the Nazarene, thanks.
(btw - I'm not a 'liberal'. I just disagree with you. No surprise there, then.)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
There was an interview on the BBC R4 Today programme this morning with a representative of the Cathedral, not Giles Fraser (who I always thought was a good choice for Vicar of the church where the Putney debates were held). The health and safety issues were discussed in a meeting with the police and the Fire Service, and it was made clear that the Cathedral was required by law to obey their advice to close.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It always strikes me that so-call evangelicals become very free with the word 'liberal' when someone else points out what's actually in the Bible.
I notice you have again magnificently avoided engaging with the point. What Jesus says about the rich and what you say about the rich are at odds. I'm sticking with the Nazarene, thanks.
(btw - I'm not a 'liberal'. I just disagree with you. No surprise there, then.)
Sorry for calling you a 'liberal' - my mistake.
I'm well aware of what Jesus says about money, wealth and power. To my mind his teaching warns about the dangers of riches and wealth, and calls on the rich to make choices about their resources - even to the point of giving them up. I don't find very much that speaks to specific taxation policies or what we should do about structural injustice, regulation, the market-place. What do you find in the Gospels that influences your decision to withdraw labour, or backs up the Occupy Protests?
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
It seems to me that when Jesus cleansed the temple, part of the reason was that the money-changers were obstructing and preventing the access to worship.
Ironically, those people who have been protesting against modern-day avaricious financial practices are now themselves the barrier to people entering a house of God.
They have made their point - it's time to go home now.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It seems to me that when Jesus cleansed the temple, part of the reason was that the money-changers were obstructing and preventing the access to worship.
Which is exactly what (in 'normal' times) the money-changers do who sit at the doors of St Paul's demanding money to enter. Not preventing exactly: they point out a tiny chapel where one may pray, or (no doubt if you don't look too much like a tourist) you can enter at times of advertised services. But certainly obstructing the freedom of Christians and others to wander at will and be uplifted to God in God's house. Except of course it's run by bankers, so is more like a den of thieves.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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dv
Shipmate
# 15714
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
modern-day avaricious financial practices are now themselves the barrier to people entering a house of God.
Although it has to be said that St Paul's does a pretty good job of that, itself, on a normal day with its £14.50 entry charge.
Posts: 70 | From: Lancs UK | Registered: Jun 2010
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