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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: A 2012 US election thread
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
I think popular vote will tend to veer left near the end of counting due the effects of timezones and the Left Coast.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That was my guess, but it is so exciting to see those numbers go up.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
what does my head in, though, is that each state gives ALL their electoral votes for a candidate. for instance, in AK and our sissy little 3 votes, ALL will go for one candidate (in this case, Romney, no doubt. because I live in redneck wonderland). but if we come out 51-49, shouldn't we cast two electoral votes for one and one vote for the other? no, of course not. it's stupid stupid stupid.
And as I understand it, this is entirely up to each individual state, yes? Because a grand total of 2 of them don't make it into all-or-nothing contests.
[ 07. November 2012, 04:18: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
If the news is slow coming across the pond, here it is: President Obama has been re-elected. And we have a new Senator: Elizabeth Warren. Could be a dynamite team.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
what does my head in, though, is that each state gives ALL their electoral votes for a candidate. for instance, in AK and our sissy little 3 votes, ALL will go for one candidate (in this case, Romney, no doubt. because I live in redneck wonderland). but if we come out 51-49, shouldn't we cast two electoral votes for one and one vote for the other? no, of course not. it's stupid stupid stupid.
And as I understand it, this is entirely up to each individual state, yes? Because a grand total of 2 of them don't make it into all-or-nothing contests.
yep. it's still stupid. in this day and age, there is no point to the electoral college.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Palimpsest: So if it's really close, the vote can take several more days to tally.
Brazilians always find this funny. Brazil has about the same number of voters as the US, and the country poses much bigger logistical challenges. Yet, in Brazil they always have the results on the very same evening. Especially in 2000, this gave Brazilians reason to feel smugly superior ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Well back in the old days in Boston, they had the results the night before ;-).
The reason for the delay is mail voting. Mail voting has worked extremely well for Washington, Oregon and California. Oregon has an 85% voter turnout. The downside is that you have to wait till the votes mailed on election day arrive.
The mail in deadline could be moved earlier, but the candidates are uncomfortable with a majority
the votes happening before the last week of the campaign. Unfortunately the golden age of Postal Service, when mail arrived the same or next day, is over.
I was dubious about Mail in, but outside of missing the ritual voting it sure is a lot more convenient. It would be nice to extend nationally so that travesties like having to wait four hours to vote in Florida or Ohio because the party controlling the state is trying to supress voting. I don't think the world is ready for e-mail voting, it's too easy to hack.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Ruudy
Shipmate
# 3939
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Posted
Well then. Can we go ahead and raise Romney's tax rate now?
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The shipmate formerly known as Goar.
Posts: 1360 | From: Gatorland | Registered: Jan 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Live pictures from Chicago: big, happy multiracial crowd.
Live pictures from Boston: big, sad white crowd.
That's pretty much what I'm seeing on my TV screen, anyway.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
BBC are saying that Governor Romney hasn't conceded yet. Is there any significance in that?
Would he have a serious chance of disputing the (projected) results, e.g. in Ohio? Or is it simply that, after months being introduced as The Next President of the United States, it takes a while for anyone to be able to publicly announce that they're not?
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Here's the situation as I write this:
Florida
- Obama 50%
- Romney 49%
- Returns counted 92%
Virginia
- Obama 50%
- Romney 49%
- Returns counted 89%
Nevada
- Obama 53%
- Romney 45%
- Returns counted 79%
So Romney would need to come from behind in all of these undeclared states and reverse Ohio in order to win the presidency. I'm not seeing a plausible way he does this.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Given the various calls for Obama of Virginia and Ohio, Romney not conceding makes him look petty.
He has no way to win.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I hope he concedes soon, I want to hear him do it before I go to bed.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Live pictures from Chicago: big, happy multiracial crowd.
Live pictures from Boston: big, sad white crowd.
That's pretty much what I'm seeing on my TV screen, anyway.
In Chicago they have spent the last two hours listening to some decent bands. In Boston they've been watching elderly neocons who used to be important ten years ago bite each others heads off on Fox. No wonder they are in different moods.
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
Would he have a serious chance of disputing the (projected) results, e.g. in Ohio?
Yes, but it wouldn't be enough to make a difference
quote:
Or is it simply that, after months being introduced as The Next President of the United States, it takes a while for anyone to be able to publicly announce that they're not?
That sounds likely too. Its hard enough losing an election to a town council. This must be a weird feeling.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
BBC are saying that Governor Romney hasn't conceded yet. Is there any significance in that?
There's no formal significance, but it's a matter of etiquette.
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
Would he have a serious chance of disputing the (projected) results, e.g. in Ohio? Or is it simply that, after months being introduced as The Next President of the United States, it takes a while for anyone to be able to publicly announce that they're not?
Months? Romney has done nothing except run for president for the past six years. Realizing that it's not going to happen is probably devastating.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
BBC are saying that Governor Romney hasn't conceded yet. Is there any significance in that?
yes. he's pouting.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Romney will be speaking in a few minutes [12:55 am EST].
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Ken, it wasn't the crowd mood I was highlighting. It was the crowd demographics.
And indeed, I've heard several commentators here this afternoon making remarks along these lines: that the Republican party is in serious long-term trouble if it doesn't reinvent itself because it's going to end up stuck in a demographic cul-de-sac. The parts of the population that are growing tend to be Democrat.
We also had a (moderate) right-wing commentator here celebrating that Tea Party candidates had done so badly, because she hoped that would lead the Republicans to reinvent themselves in some other way rather than lurching in the Tea Party direction.
She also observed that Romney was severely hamstrung in being unable to really talk about two of the most important things for him: his record as a moderate Republican governor in Massachusetts, and his Mormon faith.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Willard Mitt Romney has reportedly called Barack Obama to congratulate him upon his victory. Speech in four minutes.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Yay!
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
We also had a (moderate) right-wing commentator here celebrating that Tea Party candidates had done so badly, because she hoped that would lead the Republicans to reinvent themselves in some other way rather than lurching in the Tea Party direction.
She's right. those nutjobs have hurt the Right terribly. I used to vote both sides of the ballot, but I don't anymore; I don't trust the influence of those reactionary freaks. any chance the repubs had with me are lost because of them.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
8:00 pm AleutST
Polls are now closed in Alaska's Aleutian Island precincts, the last U.S. precincts still open in the 2012 election.
Coincidentally, Romney has just concluded his concession speech.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
"We look to Democrats and Republicans ... to put people before politics" Well said, Governor Romney. It sounded like a gentle, positive and graceful concession.
I wonder how the closeness of this election will affect the Obama Administration's decision-making. By custom, don't the Cabinet resign so that the President can re-appoint them, or not(IIRC, based on The West Wing)? Didn't President Obama initially retain a Republican, Robert Gates, as Secretary for Defense? Maybe the President will make another high-profile GOP appointment?
[ 07. November 2012, 05:09: Message edited by: Alwyn ]
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Given the various calls for Obama of Virginia and Ohio, Romney not conceding makes him look petty.
He has no way to win.
Rommney had said earlier that he had only written a victory speech. Obama had written two speeches. So Mitt is probably busy scribbling out something.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
8:00 pm AleutST
Polls are now closed in Alaska's Aleutian Island precincts, the last U.S. precincts still open in the 2012 election.
you realize that's maybe 300 people, right?
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
In Republican consolation prize news, Paul Ryan will apparently be returning to the House of Representatives.
Election officials in Miami-Dade county in Florida have released a statement saying that they will not be able to tabulate all votes in their juridiction tonight. So Florida may remain unresolved until tomorrow afternoon (Eastern time).
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
I predict that come January (after they deal with the fiscal cliff), Republicans will suddenly get serious about immigration reform--because they will realize that they will never again win a presidential election without the Latino vote.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
And, here in Maryland, not only did Obama win (big surprise there . . . unless you were paying attention), but we've legalized same-sex marriage, along with Washington and Maine. Never before has marriage equality won when put to a popular vote in the States, so this is big.
Are there people on facebook right now threatening to move? Oh yeah. One's looking into seasteading. Most, however, are looking to move to Colorado . . .
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
And, here in Maryland, not only did Obama win (big surprise there . . . unless you were paying attention), but we've legalized same-sex marriage, along with Washington and Maine. Never before has marriage equality won when put to a popular vote in the States, so this is big.
Certainly is!
Given that the situation in Washington DC is essentially 'no change', I reckon that's a serious landmark you've got there.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
...and the French cabinet is debating the same sort of stuff today.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
So when do we get an explanation of how the Rasmussen Poll and reality don't correspond?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
And, here in Maryland, not only did Obama win (big surprise there . . . unless you were paying attention), but we've legalized same-sex marriage, along with Washington and Maine. Never before has marriage equality won when put to a popular vote in the States, so this is big.
Are there people on facebook right now threatening to move? Oh yeah. One's looking into seasteading. Most, however, are looking to move to Colorado . . .
All my friends are hysterically rejoicing! But then, I think most folk who wouldn't self-selected from my feed a long time ago...
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Palimpsest: So when do we get an explanation of how the Rasmussen Poll and reality don't correspond?
I blame it on reality.
Yay on the equal marriage results!
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{Exhales re Obama winning.}
Though there may still be some shoes to drop, given voting in the areas hit by Sandy, mail-in and provisional ballots, and any problems.
O. is giving his acceptance speech right now. Good so far. Romney gave a gracious concession speech.
As to length of American ballots, frequency of elections, etc.:
-- Here is a PDF of a sample ballot for one area (randomly chosen by me) of San Francisco, CA. (Different parts of town have different ballots, depending on things like electing a member of the Board of Supervisors (city council).) [b](H/As--Sorry to link directly to a PDF; but I had to put in address info to get the sample ballot, and the PDF was the only link I could give.)
When I voted, over the weekend, I had to wade through pages and pages. I brought my list, and checked my votes twice. Took maybe 20-30 minutes. That doesn't count waiting in line for 5-10 minutes. (There'd been much longer lines earlier in the day.)
--Mandatory voting wouldn't work here. Might even make more people stay home! (We don't like to be told what to do.)
--More frequent elections wouldn't work. People would be less likely to show up, or even fill in a mail-in ballot. (And ballots in Calif. sometimes wind up in waterways, storm drains, etc.--whether mailed in or cast at a polling site.)
In fact, one item on our ballot is whether to consolidate some local elections, so we have fewer episodes of elections but still vote on the same offices. There's been conflict about it. Haven't heard a result.
And the cost of elections DOES make a difference, especially during a severe budget crisis.
O. has finished his speech. Really awesome.
And R.'s website streamed the president's speech live. Classy.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
12:50AM, USA Central Standard Time, 7 Nov 2012. Watching TV
I'm watching Barack Obama give a ROUSING acceptance speech to many thousands in Chicago. He came on stage with Michelle, Malia & Sasha, waving to the roaring crowds. Now hw has finished speaking, going out waving to the music of Bruce Springsteen.
The crowds, very much like myself, are overjoyed to have seen and heard Barry. We are so happy the Romney-Ryan threat has been defeated for four more years.
YEA! God bless America!
*
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
According to the Associated Press Virginia and Nevada will both be casting their electoral votes (19 in all) for Obama. That leaves the only states still unresolved as Florida (29) and Alaska (3). Assuming that Alaska goes to Romney as expected, Obama's electoral vote count will be either 303 or 332, depending on how Florida turns out.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
After the two speeches, I don't know how anybody could think either Obama or Romney hate America.
They are both such obvious exceptionalists.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Dear America,
Congratulations on your successful election - and thankyou for not electing a total nutjob to one of the most powerful posts on the planet,
Yours sincerely,
The world.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) You're welcome.
(I got here first, is all.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Thanks for posting the sample ballot, Golden Key. I think shipmates in other places, especially in other countries would find it interesting.
...and Yay! Obama won and we don't get this political crap drummed into our brains so intensely for another three years? two and a half years? two years? Whatever. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re Romney's delay in conceding:
There's a rumor that his campaign was so sure he'd win that they didn't have anything prepared.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Okay, now when do all the idiot right-wing poll aggregators give their concession speeches to Nate Silver?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Obama even worked global climate change into the speech. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Romney's delay in conceding:
There's a rumor that his campaign was so sure he'd win that they didn't have anything prepared.
Fools!
I guess that Romney crew couldn't count. The tally of electoral votes for Obama from the beginning was hardly higher mathematics.
*
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Thanks for posting the sample ballot, Golden Key. I think shipmates in other places, especially in other countries would find it interesting.
...and Yay! Obama won and we don't get this political crap drummed into our brains so intensely for another three years? two and a half years? two years? Whatever.
Warren in '16!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I have a great sense of relief over this result.
Well done America.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
So when do we get an explanation of how the Rasmussen Poll and reality don't correspond?
Go to ElectoralVote.com. The Votemaster there will explain Rasmussen polls. ElectoralVote.com creates election maps that both include and exclude Rasmussen. Rasmussen has an affiliation with FOXNews, the notoriously ultra-conservative USA news network, if that tells you anything. Consequently, Rasmussen polling information is often seen as biased in that direction.
*
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The speeches were good. Both of 'em, really.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961
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Posted
Yes, thank God enough Americans didn't fall for the lies/ were not too insane.
The world is still screwed regarding AGW, although with Obama in charge it should not happen as quickly as if a Republican was in the Whitehouse.
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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.
If only.
Posts: 1660 | From: A Fleeting moment | Registered: Jul 2004
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