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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Archbishop Welby
Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:


Giles Fraser, who has just accepted an award from Stonewall for being supportive of gay rights, thinks he's a good thing.

That sounds promising! Giles Fraser rocks. [Cool]

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Amos

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Giles Fraser did a big interview piece with him for the Guardian last year in which he said that +Dunelm would be his choice for Canterbury. It must be somewhere in the archive there. He's the person most of the people I know have been hoping would be chosen, apart from the Man at Watts & Co, who said, 'It's such a horrible job. Let's think of the person we dislike most and pray that he gets it!'

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Mudfrog
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The BBC has just confirmed that he has accepted the appointment to become the next Archbishop of Canterbury.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
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Albertus
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Well, they're actually saying he's widely reported as having accepted it, which is not quite the same thing. But it is looking like rather a strong story.
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Sir Pellinore
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What a thoroughly sensible choice.

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Well...

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Albertus
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Trinity man, too! [Smile]

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Curiosity killed ...

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Cynical thought - now this news of an appointment has been leaked, what chance has PM Cameron of saying no, now? Is the leak a way of forcing Cameron's hand?

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by CJS:
So not Peter Jensen then?

Absolutely not. And those who jump to such conclusions on zero evidence are idiots.

As for ExclamationMark's comment
quote:
It would be interesting to look at his diary and see where he spends his time when he visits schools and such like. The last time I saw such an analysis, the people concerned spent a disproportionate amount of time in public (private) schools and not much elsewhere.
why not do just that before making assumptions? His youngest daughter (I don't know about the rest of the family) attends an inner-city comprehensive school.

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Cynical thought - now this news of an appointment has been leaked, what chance has PM Cameron of saying no, now? Is the leak a way of forcing Cameron's hand?

I'm afraid that has something of the ring of truth about it, CK. I know Gordon Brown famously declared that he would not interfere with church appointments. Does anyone know Call me Dave's position on this?

If someone did take it on themself to push the process on in their desired direction, keep an eye on early retirememts from amongst those privvy to the decision making.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Trinity man, too! [Smile]

You'd expect that. [Biased]

Reminds me of the joke about two dons from Jesus, Cambridge (or Fenland Polytechnic as we like to call it) discussing the Reformation. Talking about the delights of Cranmer's English, the one said to the other: "We'll, he was a Jesus man, you know." To which the other replied: "We'll, I should think so too. He was Archbishop of Canterbury."

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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The Great Gumby

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:


Giles Fraser, who has just accepted an award from Stonewall for being supportive of gay rights, thinks he's a good thing.

That sounds promising! Giles Fraser rocks. [Cool]
Whatever your views on Fraser, I'm sure we can all agree that he's not infallible. I have many misgivings about the appointment, closely aligned with Oscar's concerns.

Welby's appointment reminds me a lot of David Cameron's election as Tory leader - a sort of "Ooh dear, lots of candidates who have obvious flaws. Wait - who's that chappie who hasn't been around long enough to prove that he's just as bad as the rest? He talks a good game, let's give it to him."

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

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Amos

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I'd said that too, TGG, but then I thought about it, and the thing that struck me was not the shortness of time that +Durham has been a bishop but the fact that he has been a priest for twenty years. He should be formed in his priesthood: that's the important thing, it seems to me, not the length of time he's been a bishop. There's always a danger of preferment in the CofE having a clear career path (with elements of Buggins' Turn incorporated). Which would have landed us with Ebor.

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Chapelhead

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quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Giles Fraser did a big interview piece with him for the Guardian last year in which he said that +Dunelm would be his choice for Canterbury. It must be somewhere in the archive there.

This piece?

Nice to see that Giles Fraser met Justin Welby at Welby's Pall Mall club, before they took a cab into the city. Shades of the Archdeacon.

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

d) Once this whole farago is over, whoever gets the job should make it his first priority to identify everyone in the CNC and in senior levels at Church House who has been leaking to the press and then sacking them. There's no excuse.

I agree. And their names should be leaked...

Thurible

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Adeodatus
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I've long thought that Welby was easily one of the best likely successors to ++Rowan. (Stephen Cottrell would have been my preferred choice, but he's too catholic this time round.) But I thought Welby an unlikely candidate because so much of his time for the foreseeable future is going to be taken up with the House of Lords banking review.

And I'm not sure what it says about the CofE that the best choice for Canterbury is one of the least experienced of all the bishops.

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Garasu
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm not sure what it says about the CofE that the best choice for Canterbury is one of the least experienced of all the bishops.

I'm sure there's good biblical precedent...

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Jolly Jape
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I'm not sure of the timeline here, but would ++Justin have been Dean of Liverpool at the time when +James was having his, how should we say, rethink of his views on how he handled the Jeffrey John affair? If so, would the Bishop be likely to have discussed the matter with Dean Welby? At any rate, he would have viewed, pretty much at first hand, how such a rethink might have come about, and, consequently, how to handle such an event with dignity and integrity. There is some hope in that.

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Robert Armin

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So Welby is anti SSM. Do we know what his views are homosexuality in general, and homosexual clergy in particular?

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The Great Gumby

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quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
I'd said that too, TGG, but then I thought about it, and the thing that struck me was not the shortness of time that +Durham has been a bishop but the fact that he has been a priest for twenty years. He should be formed in his priesthood: that's the important thing, it seems to me, not the length of time he's been a bishop. There's always a danger of preferment in the CofE having a clear career path (with elements of Buggins' Turn incorporated). Which would have landed us with Ebor.

Indeed. But there's a big practical difference between being a bishop and being a priest. In fact, there's a clear theological distinction drawn between the two. I don't think the relatively short time he's been a bishop should disqualify him in any way, but I'm not convinced that it would be possible to reach an accurate assessment of his strengths and weaknesses based on that.

It's easy to go for a plausible newcomer when the other candidates are problematic for one reason or another, but that tends to be down to a newcomer's faults being less obvious, due to less exposure. That may not be the case here, but it's a concern.

Interesting thought about Liverpool, Jolly Jape. I'm also trying to be positive by thinking that if the church is ever going to be dragged out of the dark ages on homosexuality and SSM, it would help if it was led by someone who the evangelicals would consider to be "one of us".

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Interesting thought about Liverpool, Jolly Jape. I'm also trying to be positive by thinking that if the church is ever going to be dragged out of the dark ages on homosexuality and SSM, it would help if it was led by someone who the evangelicals would consider to be "one of us".

There would be many evangelicals who'd immediately invoke the No True Scotsman argument if Welby spoke in favour...

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Uncle Pete

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Well, if it is Welby, the stepson of privilege (although his step-dad is a former cricketer [Yipee] ), at least it is not Graham James, who, through no fault of his own, bears the same name as a Canadian serial sex predator, which causes my innards to squick, even if my brain knows differently.

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Even more so than I was before

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Interesting thought about Liverpool, Jolly Jape. I'm also trying to be positive by thinking that if the church is ever going to be dragged out of the dark ages on homosexuality and SSM, it would help if it was led by someone who the evangelicals would consider to be "one of us".

There would be many evangelicals who'd immediately invoke the No True Scotsman argument if Welby spoke in favour...
I'm sure that's true, Doc, but he might just find at least a substantial minority cheering him on. A volte-face could be opportunism or a serious bout of metanoia. My feeling is that evo's would be more likely to think it the latter if the person responsible is "one of us". In that respect, ++Justin's credentials are as impeccable as those of ++Setamu's.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
So Welby is anti SSM. Do we know what his views are homosexuality in general, and homosexual clergy in particular?

If we believe the BBC:
quote:
He has been less forthright about his views on homosexuality. While he has rigorously defended the Church's right to oppose single-sex marriages, he has also been keen to accommodate opposing views expressed from a position of deeply held faith.


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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I'm also trying to be positive by thinking that if the church is ever going to be dragged out of the dark ages on homosexuality and SSM, it would help if it was led by someone who the evangelicals would consider to be "one of us".

I think there is a lot of truth to this. In the same way, it would perhaps have caused much less rancour and political difficulty if the changes to trade union law in the 80s had been handled by a Labour government, or if the introduction of a minimum wage had been done by the Tories.

It's a question of trust and presentation: does constituency X trust the intentions, integrity and goodwill of person Y, and does person Y have the background and cultural language to communicate with constituency X?

The danger otherwise is that it is positioned as "the liberal war on marriage" or "the Conservative war against the unions", which leads to a hardening of positions on both sides. So I think you're right: if the CoE's position on gay marriage is to be changed, it will be least disruptive and unpleasant if the move is headed by an evangelical.

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm not sure what it says about the CofE that the best choice for Canterbury is one of the least experienced of all the bishops.

I'm sure there's good biblical precedent...
Not just biblical. The great St Ambrose went from catechumen to Bishop of Milan in just over a week. I'm really just imagining the Crown Appointments committee sitting round a table, throwing the names of bishops into baskets marked "Too Old", "Too Catholic", "Too Mad" ...

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Enoch
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Am I the only shipmate - even the only person - who finds it profoundly depressing that as soon as the speculation announces a name of the next possible Archbishop, the BBC, and the discussion on this thread homes in on what the speculated new Archbishop might or might not think about homosexuality and replacing civil partnerships by same sex marriages? No interest on whether he can do anything to stem the tide of rampant uninterest in the Christian faith. No interest in whether he might be able to do anything to improve the moral tenor of our society, be it the ethical standards of public life, the plight of the poor, or the collapse in basic standards of family fidelity. A 10% reduction in adultery would do more to reduce poverty than any amount of government initiatives. There's less interest in what he actually has said about bankers than in what he hasn't said about the great dead horse.

As far as the great dead horse is concerned, all shades of opinion are going to have to accept that they are called to get on with each other and live in fellowship with each other, without the prospect of either imposing their view on the other or converting the other to it.

There really are more important things to bother about.

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Aelred of Rievaulx
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Enoch - your concern and the sexuality business are intimately connected. The C of E has no insitutional credibility left in this country, and part of that is because of her ghastly official view of homosexuality etc.

I understand that JW is being credited with being anti-SSM and conservative on sexuality generally, but
1. I don't like to believe what I read in the papers
2. I wonder if this is a read-off from his HTB background (Alpha having a notoriously homophobic week in it!)
3. and I think to myself 'he has only been a bishop five minutes and is sticking to the "teaching of the church " (yes, yes, I know it is nothing of the sort - Issues and all that) on the matter while he finds out how to open a letter with a crozier'.

I can't find anything extended and direct from the good bishop which tells me anything at all about his thinking and his views on the matter. Christina Rees thinks he is conservative but able to change his mind...but I still don't know where she gets that one from. Does anyone have any hard evidence of JW and his attitude to the constellation of sexuality issues?

And what are the bishops going to do when some of their clergy take advantage of their rights under the civil law and marry their partners?

By the way, I am as sure as eggs is eggs that
1. Dave will press ahead with legislation on equal civil marriage, and that
2. the C of E will be telling us in ten years time that it was their idea in the first place!

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Jolly Jape
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Except that, whether we like it or not, one of the primary reasons for the perceived irrelevance of the CofE amongst the great unchurched is precisely that dead horse. Almost everyone knows someone who is gay, and so the issue matters to people, and touches people's everyday life in a way that other matters do not, and it [I]is a matter that is within the remit of the church to rectify[i/] in a way that the other matters you mention are not. If we deal with this matter in a gracious and humble way, we will go far to making our voice heard on other, probably more weighty but certainly more intractible, matters.

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Chapelhead

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Indeed. What any ABC says about homosexuality will affect some people's lives. What he says about bankers will affect nothing.

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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Except that, whether we like it or not, one of the primary reasons for the perceived irrelevance of the CofE amongst the great unchurched is precisely that dead horse.

Is it?

It isn't among people I meet. Where it is claimed to be, it's usually claimed in the way the woman at the well in Samaria suddenly launched off about the temple on Mount Gerizim. That is to say, a diversionary tactic when this mysterious Jewish man seemed to be getting too close to the knuckle about who and where she was.

I needn't consider whether God might be speaking to me, because of 'what about teh gays'.

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Mr. Rob
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quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:


... I think the next ten years will see the collapse of the Worldwide Anglican Communion and I worry for Justin because of that. I thought he would be the one after this one who would have to pick up the pieces.


Sorry, but when your ten year deadline for collapse arrives the Anglican Communion will still exist in some definitely recognizable form. Some churches or groups may elect to leave it, or some type of rival Anglican type of competitor may be formed, but the core of the Anglican Communion as we know it will still be around.
*

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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Except that, whether we like it or not, one of the primary reasons for the perceived irrelevance of the CofE amongst the great unchurched is precisely that dead horse.

Is it?

It isn't among people I meet. Where it is claimed to be, it's usually claimed in the way the woman at the well in Samaria suddenly launched off about the temple on Mount Gerizim. That is to say, a diversionary tactic when this mysterious Jewish man seemed to be getting too close to the knuckle about who and where she was.

I needn't consider whether God might be speaking to me, because of 'what about teh gays'.

So anyone who thinks the church is backward, dishonest or simply bigoted on this matter is just making excuses for themselves - how wonderfully convenient! And what a marvellous gift you have, being able to discern people's innermost thoughts and motivations! [Roll Eyes]

This is just one outward sign of inward irrelevance and fucked-upness, but the church's position on this issue is exactly what led to me shaking the dust from my feet. I even remember the exact date when the CofE's statement on the same-sex marriage consultation was published, because it's seared in my memory. But you carry on with your preaching, telling everyone you meet that all forms of basic civil equality are just a diversionary tactic. I can think of no surer way to kill the church completely.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Jolly Jape
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# 3296

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Enoch, I can't really respond to your last post without straying into Dead Horse territory, except to say that reading the supposed motivation behind a person's argument seems to me to be a very rapid route to losing that person's respect. What reasons do you have for doubting a stranger's good faith?

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Except that, whether we like it or not, one of the primary reasons for the perceived irrelevance of the CofE amongst the great unchurched is precisely that dead horse.

Is it?

It isn't among people I meet. Where it is claimed to be, it's usually claimed in the way the woman at the well in Samaria suddenly launched off about the temple on Mount Gerizim. That is to say, a diversionary tactic when this mysterious Jewish man seemed to be getting too close to the knuckle about who and where she was.

I needn't consider whether God might be speaking to me, because of 'what about teh gays'.

So anyone who thinks the church is backward, dishonest or simply bigoted on this matter is just making excuses for themselves - how wonderfully convenient! And what a marvellous gift you have, being able to discern people's innermost thoughts and motivations! [Roll Eyes]

This is just one outward sign of inward irrelevance and fucked-upness, but the church's position on this issue is exactly what led to me shaking the dust from my feet. I even remember the exact date when the CofE's statement on the same-sex marriage consultation was published, because it's seared in my memory. But you carry on with your preaching, telling everyone you meet that all forms of basic civil equality are just a diversionary tactic. I can think of no surer way to kill the church completely.

--------------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Jolly Jape
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Enoch, I can't really respond to your last post without straying into Dead Horse territory, except to say that reading the supposed motivation behind a person's argument seems to me to be a very rapid route to losing that person's respect. What reasons do you have for doubting a stranger's good faith?

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Spawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:


... I think the next ten years will see the collapse of the Worldwide Anglican Communion and I worry for Justin because of that. I thought he would be the one after this one who would have to pick up the pieces.


Sorry, but when your ten year deadline for collapse arrives the Anglican Communion will still exist in some definitely recognizable form. Some churches or groups may elect to leave it, or some type of rival Anglican type of competitor may be formed, but the core of the Anglican Communion as we know it will still be around.
*

That boat already sailed. There's a broad Anglican brand and Anglican family resemblances but there isn't an Anglican Communion. The mistake was always to think that there would be a major schism, instead what happened was much less noticeable - a slow death of unity. There isn't an interchangeable ministry, there isn't common prayer, there's huge controversy around the so-called instruments of communion. People don't meet together and some can't even bear to take communion with each other. There isn't yet a more federal structure to acknowledge changed relationships. That's probably, Justin Welby's job to reconcile and rebuild something which takes greater account of autonomy as opposed to mutuality and interdependence.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
That boat already sailed. There's a broad Anglican brand and Anglican family resemblances but there isn't an Anglican Communion. The mistake was always to think that there would be a major schism, instead what happened was much less noticeable - a slow death of unity. There isn't an interchangeable ministry, there isn't common prayer, there's huge controversy around the so-called instruments of communion. People don't meet together and some can't even bear to take communion with each other. There isn't yet a more federal structure to acknowledge changed relationships. That's probably, Justin Welby's job to reconcile and rebuild something which takes greater account of autonomy as opposed to mutuality and interdependence.

I think this is right - the "Communion" in "Anglican Communion" has been more and more a fiction in recent years. Perhaps, to use a domestic metaphor, we have to learn the art of living in the same house without actually living together. And from the little I know of him, I think Justin Welby is up to the task.

I think one of ++Rowan's biggest mistakes has been his policy of "togetherness at all costs".

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
That boat already sailed. There's a broad Anglican brand and Anglican family resemblances but there isn't an Anglican Communion. The mistake was always to think that there would be a major schism, instead what happened was much less noticeable - a slow death of unity. There isn't an interchangeable ministry, there isn't common prayer, there's huge controversy around the so-called instruments of communion. People don't meet together and some can't even bear to take communion with each other. There isn't yet a more federal structure to acknowledge changed relationships. That's probably, Justin Welby's job to reconcile and rebuild something which takes greater account of autonomy as opposed to mutuality and interdependence.

I think this is right - the "Communion" in "Anglican Communion" has been more and more a fiction in recent years. Perhaps, to use a domestic metaphor, we have to learn the art of living in the same house without actually living together. And from the little I know of him, I think Justin Welby is up to the task.

I think one of ++Rowan's biggest mistakes has been his policy of "togetherness at all costs".

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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aumbry
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# 436

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
His youngest daughter (I don't know about the rest of the family) attends an inner-city comprehensive school. [/QB]

And which inner-city comprehensive would that be?
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fluff
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Well personally - Enoch - I found that the C of E v& Christianity in general's fairly awful record and present attitudes to homosexuality were a big factor in my deciding to not become, in the end, some kind of Christian, and stick to a more gernal sort of spiritual position. It was not the only factor - but it was a major one.

I

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fluff
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Re: Enoch's point, I found the church's position on the issue of homosexuality was very major factor in my decision not to join in, in the end. It wasn't the only thing, but it was important.

Obviously as I am gay, so this issue does affect me - and in the end I found couldn't stand "shoulder to shoulder" with people expressing the kind of views that Christians often, globally, tend to espouse, that I find obnoxious. The benefits of having a more "organised" type of spirituality, and being in communion with others, simply did not seem to be sufficient to outweigh this. I am also interested to see what the new Archbish's views are - assuming it is this chap. So I don't think it's irrelevant. It is also clearly a serious ethical issue and not simply a "diversionary tactic" for some sort of (undefined) other issue...

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Jonathan Strange
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:


... I think the next ten years will see the collapse of the Worldwide Anglican Communion and I worry for Justin because of that. I thought he would be the one after this one who would have to pick up the pieces.


Sorry, but when your ten year deadline for collapse arrives the Anglican Communion will still exist in some definitely recognizable form. Some churches or groups may elect to leave it, or some type of rival Anglican type of competitor may be formed, but the core of the Anglican Communion as we know it will still be around.
*

Where we disagree is on the "definitely recognizable form". I think the African churches will drop out in the next decade over increasingly overt acceptance of homosexuality and SSM by UK Anglicans. Once that happens, the term Anglican Communion will have even less meaning and work will need to be done to redefine the place of the CoE among the different groups of Anglican churches across the world. The Communion as we know it won't exist.

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"Wrong will be right, when Aslan comes in sight,
At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more,
When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death,
When he shakes his mane, we shall have spring again"

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Curiosity killed ...

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I'm another one who has fallen out of the CofE recently. One of the final straws was the SSM statement. I have no intention of wandering back in until I see who is ABC and their stance on various things, including the SSM.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Yam-pk
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....What was all that stuff about a house-divided cannot stand... [Ultra confused] [Big Grin]
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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
And which inner-city comprehensive would that be?

I'm not sure I like the idea of posting details about which teenage girl goes to what school online. Somethng a bit stalky about it. Maybe that's because I'm a parent. Your mileage may vary.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
There isn't an interchangeable ministry, there isn't common prayer, there's huge controversy around the so-called instruments of communion. People don't meet together and some can't even bear to take communion with each other.

That's not the Anglican Communion, that's the Church of England.
Those barriers are between us and our fellow Church of England parishes round the corner on the High Street. We get on fine with Anglicans in Africa.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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leo
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Giles Fraser and Alison Ruoff both agreed on radio 4 this lunchtime, that he is a good choice.

Ruoff is virtually a fundamentalist and against women exercising 'headship'. She said he upholds the bible - which is her shorthand for 'he is anti-gay'. She also said that he was a proper leader and that we haven't had any leadership at all from Rowan. Nasty woman.

Anyway, that both agree on this candidate suggests that her may be a good reconciler.

And for his views on gay marriage, it would be unrealistic to expect a bishop to depart from the party line, with few exceptions, and Cameron isn't going to ask the Church to solemnise them anyway. If he was pro-gay marriage, there would be even more splitting from the likes of Nigeria and Uganda.

That he shares Cameron's school background might mean that he is well-placed to speak truth to power.

My biggest concern is his former work in the oil industry - a bunch of crooks, as he admits in the Fraser article. I know people change but hadn't he already written as essay on structural sin before taking that job?

[ 08. November 2012, 16:32: Message edited by: leo ]

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
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Apologies - his essay was AFTER his oil job.

Let's wait and see what happens.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Robert Armin

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Enoch:
quote:
As far as the great dead horse is concerned, all shades of opinion are going to have to accept that they are called to get on with each other and live in fellowship with each other, without the prospect of either imposing their view on the other or converting the other to it.
I agree with this completely. But tell me Enoch, which side keeps telling the other that they are sinners? Which side tells the other how they should live? Which side want to impose their view on the other? If all shades of opinion really did get on with living in fellowship with those who disagree, I would be delighted!

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And for his views on gay marriage,

1. it would be unrealistic to expect a bishop to depart from the party line, with few exceptions,

2. ... Cameron isn't going to ask the Church to solemnise them anyway.

3. That he shares Cameron's school background might mean that he is well-placed to speak truth to power.

1. Unrealistic? What about Rowan? better to say "it's possible that ... depending on the pressure applied."

2. And you really, really believe him? On what evidence might that be - he's not stood by his word elsewhere so why should he now?

3. It might mean that but it might also mean he will be or become a lackey of the establishment and/or will be got at through the usual "channels." At his club over the port perhaps?

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