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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Archbishop Welby
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
I understand that JW is being credited with being ...
"JW"? So the ABC is a JW?
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Shire Dweller
Shipmate
# 16631
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Posted
Its saddening that such news gets leaked before officially being announced.
I'd be very surprised if the yet to be announced ++Welby comes out in favour or against Same Sex Marriage. No CoE ++Cantaur can tell most people what they want to hear because most people have different opinions. Many churchgoers are coming round to the idea, but change will necessarily be gradual* and almost imperceptible. There certainly wont be a major policy shift made with much fanfare that Staunch supporters or the Secular media would recognise.
I'd speculate as a first priority for The CofE, the new ++Cantaur will want to heal the inevitable wounds following whichever way the Women Bishops vote goes later this month.
*gradual change is necessary to keep most evangelical and catholic people onboard, who with time and care will start to feel OK with a clearer acknowledgement of the already existing situation of committed and faithful christian people who happen to be gay. The kind of almost Reformation-like (telling others what to do) swift shift in direction that staunch supporters seem to want would probably just create the grounds for the much predicted break-down-break-up of the CofE.
... Anyway, if you get it Justin... ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Right around the Wrekin
Posts: 77 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2011
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
(Alison) Ruoff is virtually a fundamentalist and against women exercising 'headship'. She said he upholds the bible - which is her shorthand for 'he is anti-gay'. She also said that he was a proper leader and that we haven't had any leadership at all from Rowan. Nasty woman.
I would tend to agree with this. I've heard her many times on "The Big Questions", and it's not that I always disagree with her, but she does seem a little naïve and ignorant - yet very arrogant with it. Maybe not nasty, just annoying.
To balance things, I've linked to a somewhat different view, courtesy of the Torygraph:
A new Archbishop but no change at Canterbury: Justin Welby is just another Left-wing establishment bureaucrat
Don't shoot the messenger - they are not my views (necessarily).
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
(Alison) Ruoff is virtually a fundamentalist and against women exercising 'headship'. She said he upholds the bible - which is her shorthand for 'he is anti-gay'. She also said that he was a proper leader and that we haven't had any leadership at all from Rowan. Nasty woman.
I would tend to agree with this. I've heard her many times on "The Big Questions", and it's not that I always disagree with her, but she does seem a little naïve and ignorant - yet very arrogant with it. Maybe not nasty, just annoying.
To balance things, I've linked to a somewhat different view, courtesy of the Torygraph:
A new Archbishop but no change at Canterbury: Justin Welby is just another Left-wing establishment bureaucrat
Don't shoot the messenger - they are not my views (necessarily).
Thanks for the link - and isn't it good, Mark to have a measure of agreement on something?
I despair when i see her on 'The Big Questions'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
People seem not to have commented on the fact that he comes out of the HTB stable = Alpha course and all.
What does this signify?
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mountain Man
Shipmate
# 5115
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Posted
I knew Bishop Justin when he was at Coventry Cathedral.
Although from an evangelical background he was happy with all styles of worship - I even taught him what to do with a thurible!
I found him approachable and easy to talk to and respectful of the wide range of views held in Anglicanism.
I didn't even realise he went to Eton until I read about it in the press when he was listed as one of the potential candidates for ABC.
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Life is a mountain not a beach!
Me, My Blog, My Work
Posts: 320 | From: Coventry, United Kingdom | Registered: Oct 2003
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
People seem not to have commented on the fact that he comes out of the HTB stable = Alpha course and all.
What does this signify?
His term in office is unlikely to be boring?
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
His term in office is unlikely to be boring?
Quite - and life at the helm of the C of E will be anything but boring, alongside John Sentamu, another larger than life character! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Cynical thought - now this news of an appointment has been leaked, what chance has PM Cameron of saying no, now? Is the leak a way of forcing Cameron's hand?
I'm afraid that has something of the ring of truth about it, CK. I know Gordon Brown famously declared that he would not interfere with church appointments. Does anyone know Call me Dave's position on this?
If someone did take it on themself to push the process on in their desired direction, keep an eye on early retirememts from amongst those privvy to the decision making.
Add to that the statement in today's press release:
quote:
Since 2007 the agreed convention in relation to episcopal appointments has been that the Prime Minister commends the name preferred by the Commission to the Queen. The second name is identified in case, for whatever reason, there is a change of circumstances which means that the appointment of the CNC’s recommended candidate cannot proceed
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Anyone is left-wing by the Torygraph's standards ...
As to what the HTB background will mean ... I'm not sure it'll make a great deal of discernible difference in Welby's case in that he clearly gets on well with people of other traditions and is comfortable with different styles of worship. An HTB background may certainly incline him in a broad evangelical direction but I don't think it'd lead to him tearing out altar screens and replacing them with platforms for worship bands ...
HTB comes in for a lot of stick - and I often mete it out myself - but I don't consider it any kind of impediment in Welby's case ... at least, not at the moment I don't.
To give the evangelicals their due, at their best they bring enthusiasm, enterprise and organisational ability to the table. I wouldn't want to see a CofE that was exclusively evangelical and where only the HTB-look-alikes thrive, but the onus is on the liberal catholics, Anglo-Catholics and MoR people to get their house in order. I know 'success' isn't measurable in 'worldly terms' and in numbers, the size of the collection plate and so on ... still less in managerialism and slick marketing and so forth. But I don't object to aspects of the evo/HTB style approach ... provided it's tempered by other influences and emphases.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Badger Lady:
Another Torygraph article on the new ABC's crozier . Given my monike,r I feel I cannot let this pass the ship by unnoticed. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[[LIKED]] by Mark Betts
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
All I can think about is how the Diocese of Durham after finding a bishop last year, now has to start the process again to find another new bishop.
It seems a tad unfair from their perspective.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
All I can think about is how the Diocese of Durham after finding a bishop last year, now has to start the process again to find another new bishop.
It seems a tad unfair from their perspective.
Well, quite.
We'd only just broken him in, too.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
From the Telegraph article linked by leo:
quote:
Also, it seems that the new Archbishop is on the excitable wing of the contemporary church. He writes of “…a youth group on a week away who dared a short time of prayer…and prayed for the Holy Spirit to come upon the youth. The response was utterly dramatic. They fell to the ground, spoke in tongues – you name it.”
No details are given, and I wouldn't ordinarily credit everything written by a columnist in The Telegraph. But from the perspective of someone outside the U.K., this doesn't seem to fit into the other information posted here.
How common or uncommon is such a perspective within the Anglican Church today? And how controversial?
[ 09. November 2012, 00:27: Message edited by: roybart ]
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
Well said, Gamaliel. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Justin Welby appears not to be a walking cliche as some bishops can be. Hopefully he is open to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. He will need them.
Perhaps, rather than being burdened with people's hopes and fears about what he may, or may not, do about certain rather hot topics, he should be given a period of grace to get into the job? The Church of England certainly needs healing and revival. Hopefully he might help to bring that about.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by CJS:
So not Peter Jensen then?
Absolutely not. And those who jump to such conclusions on zero evidence are idiots.
Lighten up, Angloid - the comment was likely to have been in jest. There are many in Australia - and definitely many here in Sydney - who would have been delighted to have exported ++Peter Jensen - and his brother and other members of the family - over to the UK: would have been your loss, but definitely our gain!
But realistically, we all know that such an appointment (even if possible) would have been disastrous for the Communion - the fires of puritan vengence would have burned hot!
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
So, top executive brought in to fix the operations of a dysfunctional company?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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CJS
Shipmate
# 3503
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
I understand that JW is being credited with being ...
"JW"? So the ABC is a JW?
Well the current one is a Druid.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by CJS:
So not Peter Jensen then?
Absolutely not. And those who jump to such conclusions on zero evidence are idiots.
Lighten up, Angloid - the comment was likely to have been in jest. There are many in Australia - and definitely many here in Sydney - who would have been delighted to have exported ++Peter Jensen - and his brother and other members of the family - over to the UK: would have been your loss, but definitely our gain!
But realistically, we all know that such an appointment (even if possible) would have been disastrous for the Communion - the fires of puritan vengence would have burned hot!
It obviously takes an Australian to spot an Australian attempt at humour. Maybe I'll just stick to stoking my fires of puritan vengeance for next time.
[ 09. November 2012, 02:50: Message edited by: CJS ]
Posts: 665 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2002
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
From the Telegraph article linked by leo:
quote:
Also, it seems that the new Archbishop is on the excitable wing of the contemporary church. He writes of “…a youth group on a week away who dared a short time of prayer…and prayed for the Holy Spirit to come upon the youth. The response was utterly dramatic. They fell to the ground, spoke in tongues – you name it.”
No details are given, and I wouldn't ordinarily credit everything written by a columnist in The Telegraph. But from the perspective of someone outside the U.K., this doesn't seem to fit into the other information posted here.
How common or uncommon is such a perspective within the Anglican Church today? And how controversial?
Actually, it probably fits very well indeed for someone closely associated with HTB. He was talking about a week away, not a public worship service, and such goings-on are the warp and weft of that particular spirituality. But he is probably sufficiently aware of the consituency to which he is speaking to not scare the horses. Sure, the traditionalists will raise their eyebrows, and the puritans will froth at the mouth a bit, but I somehow think that the combination of a shrewd mind and a life daily animated by a dynamic experience of the Holy Spirit will stand him in good stead in the onerous task set before him. I, for one, pray that it may be so.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
Who is going to be the new Bishop of Durham?
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Who is going to be the new Bishop of Durham?
It seems to be last man standing.
Pass me the crozier...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
People seem not to have commented on the fact that he comes out of the HTB stable = Alpha course and all.
What does this signify?
Yes, I think that is quite a worry. From what I had heard, I thought he sounded like a practical man who might just, for instance, question those 39 articles and move towards a far more rational point of view.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
People seem not to have commented on the fact that he comes out of the HTB stable = Alpha course and all.
What does this signify?
Yes, I think that is quite a worry. From what I had heard, I thought he sounded like a practical man who might just, for instance, question those 39 articles and move towards a far more rational point of view.
He's a thoroughgoing supernaturalist. But a lot of otherwise rational Christians are.
It's that pesky incarnation thing. Gets us every time.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
In fairness, SusanDoris, I think that the 39 articles are not an Anglican Creed, in as much as they are seen as a document very much of its own time; a response to a social and religious millieu which no longer exists. Very few Anglicans, even Anglican priests, treat them as holy writ, and I doubt that +Justin is amongst those that do. If you are looking for a non-supernaturalist, however, you are definately looking in the wrong place. Whether you view that as worrying or encourageing does, of course, depend on your perspective.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Yes, I think that is quite a worry. From what I had heard, I thought he sounded like a practical man who might just, for instance, question those 39 articles and move towards a far more rational point of view.
Isn't that a bit like saying you were hoping the next President of the BHA would introduce starting each meeting with a short word of prayer?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Roybart, I've participated in services and away-weekend activities rather like that - although not in an Anglican context. I wouldn't particularly want to do so again but I don't think they necessarily imply that anyone who has been involved in such things is somehow suspect. The mileage varies, of course, but in Welby's case I rather think it won't actually make that much discernible difference to the way he operates.
It's like that with most people. How would you know whether the person who serves you in a shop or reads your electricity metre or drives your local bus was rolling around and speaking in tongues at some point or other in their lives?
You wouldn't, unless they told you and made a big deal out of it and that tends not to be the Anglican way ... even for those Anglicans who go in for this sort of thing.
I don't particularly see such things as evidence of divine activity in and of themselves - but neither do I see them as indications of a lack of divine activity either. On the whole, I would suggest that there are fairly neutral and tend, primarily, to occur in the context of a particular form of spirituality. Take people out of that context and these things soon drop away or are diluted or modified.
If you heard me leading the intercessions in our parish in a traditional, liturgical fashion, you wouldn't have derived any inkling that I'd been involved with churches in the past that went in for this sort of thing big time.
For the record, I don't find the HTB connection all that 'interesting' - neither do I find HTB interesting, to be frank. It has some strengths but essentially it's a bunch of middle-class Anglicans trying to act like people from the Vineyard or the more refined end of the charismatic/pentecostal spectrum. It has a certain appeal - for a season - but I would suggest that it needs the ballast - and to an extent the baggage - of the older traditions if it is to remain grounded and not evaporate into frothiness.
Whatever else we may say or think about Welby, I don't think he can be accused of frothiness. He has suffered personal tragedy - he lost a daughter in a motor accident in the early '80s - he's been involved with 'the real world' and board-room battles and so on. So I'm prepared to cut him some slack, despite some misgivings about the Etonian aspects and so on ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
And I am still having some trouble. I conflate him with
Robert Young.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Gamaliel: He can't help having being a child of the privileged classes. The question is whether he has gotten over it.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
He is an Oblate of the Anglican Benedictine Abbey of Elmore (I am fairly sure it is Elmore, memory might be wrong). He is very serious about this and also about observance of the daily offices. I observed this and heard him talk about it before he became a Dean, and I assume this is still the case.
He is a very, very competent, sensible, rational, unpretentious and approachable person. He is sensitive to the fact that others disagree with him on matters of human sexuality.
He is completely in favour of women's ordination and ministry at every level. At least, I assume he is in favour of women bishops from what I know of him in the past.
I am pleased he was chosen, but feel very sorry for him. I hope he gets some fulfilment from the job.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
PS What I think I am trying to say is that he is someone who is what Sine termed elsewhere 'a congruent' personality. He walks his talk.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I wouldn't want to see a CofE that was exclusively evangelical and where only the HTB-look-alikes thrive, but the onus is on the liberal catholics, Anglo-Catholics and MoR people to get their house in order.
I agree. Although an evangelical myself I don't think it is good for the CodE, or Anglicanism in general, to have both English archbishops as evangelicals. One is fine.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I knew him and worked with him quite closely a couple of decades ago, and met him again briefly earlier this year. I wholeheartedly concur with Thyme's assessment. The oil executive thing I did know about, and is part of the context out of which his Grove book (Can Companies Sin? 'Whether', 'How' and 'Who' in Company Accountability ) was written. (It is a semi-technical work of theological ethics, which includes a consideration of whether a joint stock company is an entity about which it is meaningful to say that the company 'sins' as distinct from the individuals who make up its board, or its shareholders.) I didn't know about the Eton thing - its not something he makes anything of - and he is certainly not a stereotypical 'Old-Etonian'.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
And which inner-city comprehensive would that be?
I'm not sure I like the idea of posting details about which teenage girl goes to what school online. Somethng a bit stalky about it. Maybe that's because I'm a parent. Your mileage may vary.
I see your post-Savile point. My point was made because all the academics and doubtless bishops in Durham send their children to Durham Johnston which is hardly an inner city comprehensive. I knew a member of staff there who funnily enough transferred to Eton. I also wonder where the bishop sent his children to school when he was an oil executive. I somehow doubt whether the bishop really rises above the usual English middle class hypocrisy when it comes to education. It certainly would be admirable if he does.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
and he is certainly not a stereotypical 'Old-Etonian'.
But he's Eton/Cambridge, which is likely to make him less right wing than the stereotypical 'Old-Etonian' Eton/Oxford lot.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
I am sure he is an excellent man and I really hope he will do well but he has one problem which will make it very difficult for him as archbishop and this is the same problem that Rowan Williams had: he looks odd. All the pictures I have seen of him he looks like he is suffering from a goitre. Unfortunately to be a leader you need to look like a leader and he simply doesn't. The only anglican who has the right look was Richard Chartres but he is now too old.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
All the pictures I have seen of him he looks like he is suffering from a goitre.
I know I disagree with you about everything but why stop at the trivial I ask myself.
I don't see any hint of a goitre.
Seems to have a perfectly creditable anterior neck in my estimation, perhaps a little light in the crico-thyroid region and could do with a little more sub-mental fullness, but perhaps I'm not the connoisseur of necks in profile that I might be.
Maybe his marks in other areas made up for it on the score sheet.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
All the pictures I have seen of him he looks like he is suffering from a goitre.
I know I disagree with you about everything but why stop at the trivial I ask myself.
I don't see any hint of a goitre.
Seems to have a perfectly creditable anterior neck in my estimation, perhaps a little light in the crico-thyroid region and could do with a little more sub-mental fullness, but perhaps I'm not the connoisseur of necks in profile that I might be.
Maybe his marks in other areas made up for it on the score sheet.
It was the popping out eyes I had in mind
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
How - um - superficial of you, aumbry.
On the face of it you are right it is superficial but appearance is a matter of importance and history tells us that successful leaders have a charisma and a certain sort of appearance. Many of the finest politicians have got nowhere simply because they looked odd.
If Rowan Williams had not looked like a fifth century druid the public would have perhaps taken him a bit more seriously. I don't think it is wholly a coincidence that John Paul II looked like a leader and was a very successful pope.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
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Originally posted by aumbry:
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Originally posted by ken:
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Originally posted by aumbry:
And which inner-city comprehensive would that be?
I'm not sure I like the idea of posting details about which teenage girl goes to what school online. Somethng a bit stalky about it. Maybe that's because I'm a parent. Your mileage may vary.
I see your post-Savile point. My point was made because all the academics and doubtless bishops in Durham send their children to Durham Johnston which is hardly an inner city comprehensive. I knew a member of staff there who funnily enough transferred to Eton. I also wonder where the bishop sent his children to school when he was an oil executive. I somehow doubt whether the bishop really rises above the usual English middle class hypocrisy when it comes to education. It certainly would be admirable if he does.
Is the reference to an 'inner city comprehensive' a reference to Liverpool, where the status is more apparent? Actually this issue does raise a serious point: for his children this is a horrendous second transfer within as many years. Maybe we should bring back celibate bishops
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
How - um - superficial of you, aumbry.
Aumbry has a point if only because the camera (and those who direct them) like a certain look. A certain chin shape=resolute leader. A certain skin tone suggests age, tiredness, a lack of vigour, unawareness of young people's issues. And if the person is noticeably overweight, a lack of discipline and a range of health issues is assumed-- I have seen polling which showed that Stephen Harper's ratings improved when he lost 20lb.
There is a level where, like it or not, leaders or spokesmen must be a friend of the camera or they won't be heeded. I remember well how one otherwise capable politician (I didn't like him at all, but that's neither here nor there) was bluntly told that his leadership prospects were nil but that, if we were only in the era of campaigning by radio, he would be "in like Flynn."
I am certain that if ++Rowan had his hair and beard trimmed closely, he would have had less difficulty with the press. Cleanshaven and with contact lenses, even better (research sugggests that a beard loses a candidate about 5% and a set of glasses 3% so using these numbers, ++Rowan lost one out of twelve just by showing up).
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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CJS
Shipmate
# 3503
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Posted
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Originally posted by balaam:
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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I wouldn't want to see a CofE that was exclusively evangelical and where only the HTB-look-alikes thrive, but the onus is on the liberal catholics, Anglo-Catholics and MoR people to get their house in order.
I agree. Although an evangelical myself I don't think it is good for the CodE, or Anglicanism in general, to have both English archbishops as evangelicals. One is fine.
Do you really think the churchmanship of those two English archbishops makes any significant difference at all to 'Anglicanism in general' nowadays?
Posts: 665 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
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Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
How - um - superficial of you, aumbry.
Aumbry has a point if only because the camera (and those who direct them) like a certain look. A certain chin shape=resolute leader. A certain skin tone suggests age, tiredness, a lack of vigour, unawareness of young people's issues. And if the person is noticeably overweight, a lack of discipline and a range of health issues is assumed-- I have seen polling which showed that Stephen Harper's ratings improved when he lost 20lb.
There is a level where, like it or not, leaders or spokesmen must be a friend of the camera or they won't be heeded. I remember well how one otherwise capable politician (I didn't like him at all, but that's neither here nor there) was bluntly told that his leadership prospects were nil but that, if we were only in the era of campaigning by radio, he would be "in like Flynn."
I am certain that if ++Rowan had his hair and beard trimmed closely, he would have had less difficulty with the press. Cleanshaven and with contact lenses, even better (research sugggests that a beard loses a candidate about 5% and a set of glasses 3% so using these numbers, ++Rowan lost one out of twelve just by showing up).
But shouldn't the church be rising above this? I would really prefer not to see the Church kowtowing to sound bite politics and the politics of appearances. As part of the countercultural nature we hope religion still holds to, almost certainly in vain.
I also don't think Justin Welby is that odd looking, and the thought of appointing Richard Charteris just because he looks right is fairly mind boggling.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
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Originally posted by aumbry:
I am sure he is an excellent man and I really hope he will do well but he has one problem which will make it very difficult for him as archbishop and this is the same problem that Rowan Williams had: he looks odd. All the pictures I have seen of him he looks like he is suffering from a goitre. Unfortunately to be a leader you need to look like a leader and he simply doesn't. The only anglican who has the right look was Richard Chartres but he is now too old.
Oh, FFS, Aumbry. That's the same line of argument that Romney used: he 'looked Presidential.'
Christians look odd. Archbishops look even odder. I can't think of a single one in my lifetime who didn't, even without the crosier and mitre and rochet and cope and Canterbury cap, and gaiters. Fisher? Ramsey? Coggan? Runcie? Surely not. Carey? Well, actually Carey was the one who didn't look odd. Maybe that was the reason for his selection.
[ 09. November 2012, 11:15: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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