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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Archbishop Welby
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Durham's not a compromise candidate--that would have been Coventry or Norwich, I imagine. It's stepping quite far outside the norm to choose someone who's been a bishop for less than a year. My source suggests that he was definitely felt to be the first choice.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Separated at birth?
Separated at birth?
A natural choice for Archbishop. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[Your 2nd link does not work - I can't fix it, DT, Purgatory Host]
[ 09. November 2012, 19:24: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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Even more so than I was before
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
... Really? I can't see that the last two ABCs had much if any influence on the CofE's attitudes to same-sex marriage at all. Why should the next one?
Welby actually stated that position today, recorded before press cameras in a flat, no nonsense, matter of fact way. Same-sex marriage or civil partnerships or whatever are the state's business, not the church's.
Justin Welby today at Lambeth. Press statement.
Bravo! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
*
Impressive. Very much, IMO, the new CO/CEO/Headmaster setting out his stall, but none the worse for that. We've had 10 years of (usually wonderful) Mary but now perhaps it is time for a bit of Martha.
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
He also said in his press conference that he was reconsidering
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Durham's not a compromise candidate--that would have been Coventry or Norwich, I imagine. It's stepping quite far outside the norm to choose someone who's been a bishop for less than a year. My source suggests that he was definitely felt to be the first choice.
If that is correct then why has it taken so long to agree, and why did the committee need to meet more than it usually does?
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
It has to send two names to Number 10. My understanding is that the disagreement was with the second name.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Separated at birth?
Separated at birth?
A natural choice for Archbishop.
[Your 2nd link does not work - I can't fix it, DT, Purgatory Host]
Works fine for me. Perhaps because it is a GIF?
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Even more so than I was before
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
I "don't have permission" to access some site about saints and popes.
Plus, I get an additional 404 error for just asking.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
As the AoC is the spiritual centre of the worldwide communion, I was very glad to listen with an increasing sense of pleasure to the press conference. He made many encouraging comments on significant issues - I just hope the initial promise carries through into action and committment!
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I "don't have permission" to access some site about saints and popes.
Plus, I get an additional 404 error for just asking.
I give up - it must be I can see it because the Vatican has checked out my IP. Sorry.
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Even more so than I was before
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Being told "You don't have permission to access saints/pope" does leave me feeling a little restricted for intercessory mediators.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
A little bit of detective work suggests you see this pope as a lookalike.
He's Pope 260 in a list on the website and you were trying to link an image "pope260a"
Do I get the prize?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by CJS:
Do you really think the churchmanship of those two English archbishops makes any significant difference at all to 'Anglicanism in general' nowadays?
It could be seen as a green light to provinces such as Nigeria and a snub to others (USA?). Of course it won't make a difference to the relationship between Nigeria and USA. (What relationship?) But both provinces are AFAIK in communion with Canterbury.
The vast majority of American Episcopalians have no idea what the churchmanship of the English archbishops is, or even that churchmanship is such an issue in England. I'd bet most of them don't know what churchmanship is.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Seems like most people are only concerned with his stance on sexuality and SSM
These are the topics, along with the OoW as bishops, where the man at the helm will have the most influence over the church he hands on to his successors, so that's probably why.
Really? I can't see that the last two ABCs had much if any influence on the CofE's attitudes to same-sex marriage at all. Why should the next one?
They do have an impact on how and when we will start to consecrate women as bishops, just as they had an influence on how and when we started to ordain women as priests. I don't think any Archbishops could have prevented the ordination of women in England, but George Carey helped to make it happen earlier than it might otherwise have happened, and with more consideration for the anti-women party than they might have got in other circumstances.
The arguments we have on same-sex marriage and priests living with same-sex partners - or to be honest the arguments we mostly don't have, we're still largely in an era of "don't ask don't tell" and I'm not sure that's a bad thing sorry about the Dead Horse) - the arguments we have on same-sex marriage are very different in their nature from the ones we had about ordaining women and probably not susceptible to any amount of church politicking from Archbishops or anyone else.
I wasn't thinking influence in the sense of making the church go his way. I was thinking more in terms of the interplay of his views and his diplomacy in steering the church through the coming years wrt this particular extinct mesohippus.
Which is going to be interesting, going on by the mouth frothing I heard on PM this evening from some Bishop in Nigeria who suddenly turned from reasonable if non-committal good wishy sort of comments to an almost snarling "but if he's going to bring the gay agenda..." Akinola-esque diatribe.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A little bit of detective work suggests you see this pope as a lookalike.
He's Pope 260 in a list on the website and you were trying to link an image "pope260a"
Do I get the prize?
Yes, I found the similarities striking. And I might send you some chocorrit.
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Even more so than I was before
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Ultracrepidarian
Shipmate
# 9679
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Posted
Having read this thread, I think I'm filled with more hope than apprehension, which is heartening. I don't think I'll always agree with him, but it sounds like +Justin will be an ABC that I can look up to and respect. It's a big and difficult job, but it sounds like +Justin has a prayerful approach to life (and self-deprecating sense of humour) that will serve him well in the hard years to come.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) Justin Wellby
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
PM this evening [/QB]
Sorry, but what's this?
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
As the AoC is the spiritual centre of the worldwide communion ...
One of the things that shocked me in the NZ Anglican church, confirmed by a statement by a very well known (non-shippie) anglican priest today is that kiwi anglicans tend to see the AB of C as no more than a nice bishop far away. When I prayed in a liturgy for the AB of C, for the primate, and our diocesan bishop in that order more than one parishioner was shocked, having not heard that done before.
All of which is quite ironic as NZ is far less republican than Oz.
But I digress. All strength to + Durham, and on the whole those of us who may not like him will just have to suck it up, rather than undermine him. He will be in my prayers. I was no fan of Carey, either, but he was in my prayers. I liked Runcie and I adored Williams.
Fortunately I'm not God. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Although I guess if I were I wouldn't have to pray (but I'm told the hours are long and the pay dubious).
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I too heard that Nigerian Bishop's snarling attitude at the end of his contribution on Radio 4, and if that's current Christianity, then who is going to want to join it? Even if they think, well, that's Nigerian Christianity, but it's not ours, there are still huge questions about its value and position in the world.
Also, bearing in mind the huge popularity of the various TV series by people like Prof Brian Cox on the structure and wonderful facts about the universe, i think the AofC will find he is on shaky ground when he tries to find ways to encourage people back to or to join the CofE, when he cannot provide evidence for the things he believes, presumably, are facts.
)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
As the AoC is the spiritual centre of the worldwide communion ...
One of the things that shocked me in the NZ Anglican church, confirmed by a statement by a very well known (non-shippie) anglican priest today is that kiwi anglicans tend to see the AB of C as no more than a nice bishop far away. When I prayed in a liturgy for the AB of C, for the primate, and our diocesan bishop in that order more than one parishioner was shocked, having not heard that done before.
...
Well, it wasn't about the All Blacks, was it? Lol.
I suspect most contemporary Australian Anglican pew warmers would be similarly moved or vacant.
Perhaps the AoC should be allowed his primacy of honour (that's all it is) and let be to attempt to sort out what he can of the affairs of the C of E which do appear to need some attention.
I found Spawn's comments on the Communion perceptive.
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Well...
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
I wonder if ++York and +London won't step down in 2014 and 2015 now. A new Top 4 in 4 years?
So the younger / compromise candidates have another chance soon!
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
The main challenge facing JW is not the social or sexual issue. Whatever the CofE might have to say on these issues is ultimately irrelevant. Society will go its own way and a marginalised Church will be a voice crying in the wilderness. It will have zilch impact.
Yeah - Francis should have bothered to leave his family, Luther should have stayed in his cloister and Wesley should have accepted a comfortable living somewhere. Sometimes the church does successfully lead a fight back against secular tides; remember that paedophilic gay behaviour was widely accepted in the Graeco-Roman world before the church came along. [No I'm not equating that with the present gay community, just drawing a comparison.] At some point Christians, and thus the church, have to say: 'This is the will of God'. Ultimately we'll only know who's right at the final judgement, but there's a lot to be said for the argument that the majority usually proves to be wrong.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Well, actually, I agree with you, ES, except for the little detail of which should be considered the besetting sins of our current society. I seem to recall another thread where you were very keen on extolling the "virtues" of capitalism, whereas I would see this system as dehumanising and idolatrous. I'm all for the church having a prophetic voice, I'd just rather it were shouting about central scriptural truths, you know, the ones Jesus actually spoke about, issues of who and what we worship, and solidarity with the outcast, the poor, and the oppressed, rather than bleating on about the supposed sins of others, "sins" which "we" would never be tempted to commit.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
I'm all for the church having a prophetic voice, I'd just rather it were shouting about central scriptural truths, you know, the ones Jesus actually spoke about, issues of who and what we worship, and solidarity with the outcast, the poor, and the oppressed, rather than bleating on about the supposed sins of others, "sins" which "we" would never be tempted to commit.
Agreed.
And Jesus spoke out against the religious hierarchy of the day as much as anything else. Heaven know what he'd think of the CofE!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A little bit of detective work suggests you see this pope as a lookalike.
He's Pope 260 in a list on the website and you were trying to link an image "pope260a"
Do I get the prize?
Barnabas - you are the prize ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Indeed. It does seem a bit odd that so many commentators have remarked on his experience of 'the real world' as though being an executive for an oil company is so much more 'real' than the day-to-day work of a parish priest.
But possibly more relevant to overseeing the Anglican Communion.
I've nothing at all against Justin but hasn't he had rather a protected existence - Eton, Cambridge and a scion of the Butler dynasty to boot? Please let him be who his is and not pretend he is somehow "down wiv da kids" when it comes to personal experience of social need. For all his faults, at least George Carey had been there and has never forgotten it.
And never let US forget it.
Bishop Welby sounds an excellent choice. Witty, urbane, and intelligent (three qualities denied to George Carey), he admitted that his most challenging role had been as a parish priest.
He also has those qualities that will make him appreciated - and listened to - by the 'Establishment'. The so-called 'Establishment' favours those who wear their office lightly, as did Robert Runcie. They may not agree with them, but they will be listened to. Justin Welby has had enough experience to know how to manoeuvre his way through very skillfully. This has been appreciated by his present committee role. This is a huge asset for the future Primate of All England.
Despite his rather narrow background - I mean evangelical rather than Etonian - he is a very broad individual with huge experience. He is no mealy mouthed roundhead, and even if slightly tempted by that in his earlier days, moved swiftly on. He is someone who understands and lives the Incarnation, is world affirming, prayerful and smart.
I am a fan; he is an wise choice.
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sebhyatt
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I too heard that Nigerian Bishop's snarling attitude at the end of his contribution on Radio 4, and if that's current Christianity, then who is going to want to join it? Even if they think, well, that's Nigerian Christianity, but it's not ours, there are still huge questions about its value and position in the world.
)
That argument cuts
both ways .
Back to the thread, Welby looks like a cute choice to me. Progressive on women bishops whilst generally conservative. Don't particularly care what he looks like - no one mentioned Ed Milliband....
And there's one or two Biblical precedents for the guy at the back of the queue being pushed to the front.
[ 10. November 2012, 09:07: Message edited by: Truman White ]
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Actually, I think ++Justin is well placed to inspire the CofE to move towards this counter-cultural goal. The fact that he recognises that sin is institutional and not just personal, that systems either encourage or discourage righteousness, is a great sign of hope.
Historically, it seems to me, that the Church has responded to a "bankrupt" society in one of two ways. The first, the one we are most familiar with, is to work within the istitutions, transforming them from the inside, a "constantinian" model, if you like. This is how slavery, for example, came to be abolished. It is a strategy which has served us well.
But it was not always thus. Sometimes, the church has said, "I'm sorry, but your society's rules stink, and we're not going to play by them any more". This, of course, was, perforce, the way the early Church operated, but the monastic movement was also birthed out of this sort of thinking, so we could call it a "monastic" route. Of course, this carries with it all sorts of historical baggage relating to "escape" rather than "engagement", but in the beginning it was not so. Education, healthcare, the relief of poverty were all birthed organisationally in the monastic system. It was a system of passionate involvement with the world, but from a perspective that rejected the world's values, an attempt to incarnate the Kingdom in the world, for the world, but not of the world.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
'World-affirming, prayerful and smart' will do me.
I'm beginning to warm more and more to the choice ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Archbishop Welby
And is this not a teeny weeny bit of an odd look?
Is this Sheldon Cooper's Dad??
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ho! Ho! Ho!
Mind you, this really has to stop ...
We're adding a new category to hasten the ultimate break-down of the Anglican Communion and the 'Via Media' ...
Alongside 'too evangelical/not evangelical enough', 'too liberal/not liberal enough', 'too Catholic/not Catholic enough', 'too broad/not broad enough' ... we've now got ...
Too UGLY
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Today's edition of the Times mentions that Bishop Welby is an 'oblate , or lay monk, in Salisbury Priory' - could anyone here kindly explain that a little more.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I think someone started a thread about that.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Indeed I did before I knew this about Bishop Welby.
However,my question here is specific to Bishop Welby the thread elsewhere was general.
The Times article does not name the monastery. i do not know specifically to what it refers. does anyone else know which monastery specifically the bishop is a lay monk of, and what that means in that particular setting.
What I was specifically wondering is what Salisbury monastery is he a member of?
[ 10. November 2012, 12:03: Message edited by: Percy B ]
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Percy B - it was discussed earlier in this thread here and onwards for some posts
[ 10. November 2012, 12:28: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
Thanks very much. I am sorry I should have checked back, I missed several earlier posts, including the ones where this matter was discussed.
Isn't it encouraging to have an archbishop designate who is so sympathetic to Anglo Catholicism and Evangelicalism.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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+Chrism
Apprentice
# 17032
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Posted
Congratulation to +Justin Durham on his quick elevation. +Stephen Cottrell (Even though he sold out to his own inheritance) and +Richard Chartres would have been my choice.
Stephen Cottrell is Catholic but very evangelical at the same time and I felt it was time +London has a change and got a new Bishop but on a serious note +Richard Chartres was the only fitting candidate regardless of his theological convictions (Which he has never made public)
I shall pray for Justin Welby as he prepare to take up this daunting role
The main question and issue I have now is "Where does this leave "Trad Catholic clergy" in terms of future senior appointments. Does this mean that the future ++Ebor will be a traditionalist who won't consecrate women bishops.
I am concerned that they will become second-class Anglicans who will be overlooked when it comes to Suffragan and Diocesan appointments as well as future ++Cantuar and ++Ebor appointments
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+In Nomine Patris Et Filio Sancti
Posts: 38 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I've nothing at all against Justin but hasn't he had rather a protected existence - Eton, Cambridge and a scion of the Butler dynasty to boot? Please let him be who his is and not pretend he is somehow "down wiv da kids" when it comes to personal experience of social need. For all his faults, at least George Carey had been there and has never forgotten it.
...Bishop Welby sounds an excellent choice... he admitted that his most challenging role had been as a parish priest.
And I wonder whether George Carey's background, while almost certainly less comfortable in his early years, was in any real sense less narrow. On the one hand respectable working class in a very good generation to be of that class, most of his career spent in theological colleges, incumbency of a rather studenty 'shrine' (well, the evangelical equivalent) parish: on the other a bit of a toff, admittedly, but from a family with high traditions of public service (you don't really get much better than the Butlers for that, and his stepfather is a Labour life peer): then a few years doing big things in the private sector, incumbency in a 'normal' parish, then appointments in a couple of inner-cityish cathedrals. I wouldn't say there was much to choose between them, and there's a case for saying that once they'd passed their late 20s, Welby had a rather broader experience than Carey- if that matters at all.
[Fixed code, DT, Purgatory Host]
[ 10. November 2012, 14:04: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I've nothing at all against Justin but hasn't he had rather a protected existence - Eton, Cambridge and a scion of the Butler dynasty to boot? Please let him be who his is and not pretend he is somehow "down wiv da kids" when it comes to personal experience of social need. For all his faults, at least George Carey had been there and has never forgotten it.
...Bishop Welby sounds an excellent choice... he admitted that his most challenging role had been as a parish priest.
And I wonder whether George Carey's background, while almost certainly less comfortable in his early years, was in any real sense less narrow. On the one hand respectable working class in a very good generation to be of that class, most of his career spent in theological colleges, incumbency of a rather studenty 'shrine' (well, the evangelical equivalent) parish: on the other a bit of a toff, admittedly, but from a family with high traditions of public service (you don't really get much better than the Butlers for that, and his stepfather is a Labour life peer): then a few years doing big things in the private sector, incumbency in a 'normal' parish, then appointments in a couple of inner-cityish cathedrals. I wouldn't say there was much to choose between them, and there's a case for saying that once they'd passed their late 20s, Welby had a rather broader experience than Carey- if that matters at all.
[Fixed code, DT, Purgatory Host]
Justin Welby has, forgive me for repeating myself wit, urbanity and intelligence - three qualities denied to Carey.
By using the criteria that you suggest he may be only marginally more exerienced than Carey. However in his urbanity lies his trump card. Like Runcie, he read something other than theology as an undergraduate, although is clearly theologically well 'qualified'; he has been a smooth operator in a cut-and-thrust international company and highly regarded in that role.
Similarly, it may be unpopular and 'not nice' according to prevailing and probably transient mores to say so, but Eton would have contributed enormously to his intellectual broadening, as he would have had access to world class tutors and brains; his rubbing shoulders with future 'Establishment' figures would have contributed to his later poise and clear confidence with the civil service, government and ruling elite. And then Cambridge.
There is some similarity with Robert Runcie. RR's old school : Merchant Taylor's (both Middlesex and Liverpool versions of which taught biblical Hebrew as an option in those days - as a former pupil who is a bishop who frequently posts on here might verify), and in RR's case the Scots Guards made him confident, easy going, and one who wore his office lightly. Faith in the City may not have been liked by Mrs Thatcher's cabinet, but it was read. RR made have caused irritation; but he was respected - and his company enjoyed. He had a greater effect than those IN the Church would realise.
It is this urbanity (maybe spirituality as well, but don't count on it) that matters in high places. Whether we approve or disapprove, the ABC has a unique national role in an Established Church, some of it behind closed doors and unknown to many of us as a sort of chaplain to the great and good - including the royal family. RR managed it; Justin Welby will mange it. Rowan Williams, an extraordinary once-in-a-generation person of profound urbanity, of a different background to an extent managed it to an extent : was regard as a highly intelligent and spiritual man and hugely respected, but very much a Church-man and academic (a word often used in a pejorative sense).
Justin Welby spoke of finding his greatest challenge as being a parish priest. Part of his audience will love that - he is shrewd enough to know how to chose his words.
George Carey in his effortless pomposity just didn't get it, and didn't possess the equipment to 'get it'. His embarrassing interjections after his retirement only confirmed many, inside and outside the Church, of his inabilities. Experience yes, but urbanity, I'm afraid not. Sadly he was an Establishment joke. This doesn't assist the CofE in being taken seriously.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
As you may know, sebby, I share your admiration of Robert Runcie, and I completely agree with you about the importance of wit, urbanity, and a general degree of savoir-faire and lightness of touch. These appear to be very good qualities in Justin Welby and I am pleased to see them. I wasn't suggesting that JW's background was only slightly broader than GC's: what I meant was that although some might assume GC's background to have been broader than JW's, this may not be the case at all. The comparison was intended to be to JW's benefit!
(I omitted your comments about George Carey's lack of wit, intelligence and urbanity from my posting because at the moment, following a little run-in elsewhere on the Ship, I am being very careful not to say anything that may even be perceived as rude -coming from me- about him.)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Here's something for all you Guardianistas to get your teeth into:
New archbishop started his journey to Lambeth Palace at a radical church
quote:
...But the modest setting is just about the only thing that is low-key about HTB. Since the early 1980s it has been exporting a noisy mini-reformation to the rest of the Church of England, with its rock-band style of worship, social activism and unabashed evangelical drive to make converts...
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A fair article, overall, I think, Mark. And Carey Junior's comments are to be taken seriously, I think.
I really don't expect the HTB background to become that prominent in how Welby conducts himself as Archbishop. It is more likely to be cited by his critics - which he'll undoubtedly have - or those who can't find much else to say about his tenure.
Sure, it'll be part of his spiritual DNA and important in that respect, but I really don't see him trying to move everything in an HTB-style direction - even if such a thing were possible for someone with his remit.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
A very good article aprt from the bit at the end under the title "A church divided?" which is incredibly simplistic and largely inaccurate. I'd expect better of The Observer.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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+Chrism
Apprentice
# 17032
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Posted
The main issue I have with this appointment is "Where does this leave "Trad Catholic clergy" in terms of future senior appointments.
With the possibility of women bishops could this mean that a "traditionalist" will never be ++Cantuar in future. If this is the case will they guarantee that ++Ebor is a traditionalist who does not ordain women - This will solve the issue of swearing Canonical Obedience to a female bishops.
I am also concerned that "Traditionalists" will become second-class Anglicans who will be overlooked when it comes to Suffragan and Diocesan appointments.
I came across the Twitter page of Revd Sally Hitchiner where she said "So WHO will be the new Bishop of Durham? Lucy Winket? Rachel Treweek? June Osborne? Fingers crossed it's a girlie!".
As previously mentioned "those who want to be Bishops shouldn't". No female clergy has openly said they want to be a Bishop, so how do we know that they want to be Bishops.
I pray and hope that the CofE don't make Traditionalists and Conservative Evo's second-class Anglicans and that they are treated fairly for Senior Appointments
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+In Nomine Patris Et Filio Sancti
Posts: 38 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2012
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Agree with Spike, good article down to the last bit. And dragging up that misreporting of David Jenkins again - he said it was not just a bag of old bones
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
And dragging up that misreporting of David Jenkins again - he said it was not just a bag of old bones
You're right that it is wrong to misquote people - but even what he did say sounds a bit disingenuous to me, as with many liberal clichés.
(I hope I'm making sense)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Mark Betts - this is a tangent, but there's a link to another reporter's take on it here - the full transcript is in his biography The Calling of a Cuckoo which is far more orthodox in his declarations of faith than these misquotes make him sound.
But wait - so how do you explain the lightning bolt which set York Minster on fire?
I'm joking of course! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
[/tangent]
Normal service can be resumed now..
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
I am someone who once was a practising Christian but 13 years ago lost my faith. I didn't walk away from faith or the church, I didn't feel angry or bitter. I simply woke up one morning and found I no longer believed. Over time I recovered sufficiently to attend church once a year: the service of nine lessons and carols at Christmas time (a beautiful service). But that's as far as the recovery has progressed.
The point of that little confession is simply to illustrate that I am an outsider looking in. Although even an outsider cannot avoid learning about the Church of England. I would imagine those of us who are outsiders will have a different perspective to those of you caught up in church life, whether Anglican or otherwise.
Pretty much the only context in which I have heard the Anglican church mentioned in the years I've been away has been its ongoing, tedious argument about women and gay people. Looking in from the outside I would suggest that it is this argument which is killing off the Anglican church. Clearly the people have not binned church altogether. In recent years the default reaction to tragedies appears to be packing out the local Anglican church for a vigil. So the church still has something to say to the people. Sadly, though, it just isn't saying very much as it is too busy arguing with itself.
I don't have a clue who this new archbishop is but I rather liked the portrait painted of him by a correspondent in The Times recently. There is certainly a need for someone who can basically shut the church up arguing with itself without triggering further conflict. He does appear to offer that quality, according to the article I read anyway, and so could be an astute appointment. Either way, if the church doesn't shut up arguing with itself soon then those still left inside it will soon find themselves arguing in an empty room as most of us on the outside don't care.
Posts: 267 | From: somewhere other than here | Registered: Dec 2009
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