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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Pope Resigns
seasick

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I got the impression that he was the most Protestant-friendly Pope ever.

Really? I can't say I think he seemed to have much interest, for better or for worse. Personally, I measure such things by actions not be words. My abiding memory of this pontificate in terms of ecumenical relations will undoubtedly be the Liverpool Methodist ordination issue for reasons that some will know.

I do think he has taken a wise decision in stepping down and I hope and pray that he will have a restful and restorative retirement. I am sure a papal schedule would take serious toll on a person many years younger than him.

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Ronald Binge
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Is there any chance that those who run the Church could bear in mind that our human lives are finite and that trusting to eternity to solve apparently intractable problems such as ecumenism and some of the ex-Nags having a canter may not be such a good strategy after all?

But this presumes that the Church's teachings on these ex-Nags are wrong and should be changed. Is there a chance that those who run the Church disagree with you? I certainly do.
Well, I would be the first to put my hands up and admit that I was wrong in anything that I say or do - but my personal view, and stress that it is my personal view, is that I do not believe that the sense of the faithful has been adequately received on some issues.

I am side stepping the expired equuses - except to say I have a personal view that Rome, Constantinople and the Conservative Evangelicals have got it wrong and putting the genie back into the bottle isn't an option. Just as well that I'm not in Holy Orders though I did feel the call but realise that I'm too much of an awkward squad person for the institution as it is.

Not having had theological training, it is hugely difficult for me expand greatly on this - I think it is a matter for further discussion between all Christians and indeed here, but my real life is impinging on me in ways that make my online life utterly trivial - but I do wonder is it time for a Great Council? Admission being profession of the Nicene Creed, whether it contains "filioque" or "consubstantial" or not.


But failing that, wouldn't it be something if our ecumenism could move beyond that of the teacup and the University Common Room? Here in Ireland, even in the "nice" suburbs it appears we exist in splendid isolation for most of the year.

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Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
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I wasn't actually saying you can't have an opinion on the governance of the Church, RB. I was asking if you had first-hand evidence upon which to base your opinion. The way you create a bogeyman out of the Curia suggests to me you have no knowledge of either the Curia or anyone who actually works in it.

I have a lot of opinions about the Curia, btw, not all of them positive!! One of the finest men there, imo, is an Irishman, Mgr Paul Tighe. It cannot be long before he is a bishop. One of the creepiest, most unpleasant specimens I have encountered happens also to be an Irishman, by co-incidence. Thankfully he seems to have moved on. My point is there are very fine people working in the Curia, as well as some rather unpleasant ones - as anywhere. But they are all motivated by a desire to serve the Church. A priest of my own diocese works very closely with the Holy Father, based in the Secretariat of State and I stand in great admiration for him. So to set the Curia up as some malignant, evil force intent on thwarting true progress is a terrible parody.

I'm afraid your own list of necessary changes or developments are dooming you to an endless frustration and unhappiness. That's not because of the malignant Curia, but because your expectations are unreal. The Curia is not akin to a political party's policy office. Those things you want are just not on their radar.

I think the Curia is in need of a massive restructuring and some joined-up thinking between the various dicasteries. As it is, I think they are like a collection of medieval Italian duchies, all doing their own thing. Contrary to fletcher christian's jest, they need a tighter rein.

Here is Mgr Tighe again, talking about the dicastery of which he is Secretary and how it seeks to serve the worldwide Church.

But I suspect you mean the CDF, whose job it is to promote the doctrine of the Church and to challenge those who promote contrary doctrines. I'm afraid, they're simply doing their job .....

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Ronald Binge
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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I wasn't actually saying you can't have an opinion on the governance of the Church, RB. I was asking if you had first-hand evidence upon which to base your opinion. The way you create a bogeyman out of the Curia suggests to me you have no knowledge of either the Curia or anyone who actually works in it.

I have a lot of opinions about the Curia, btw, not all of them positive!! One of the finest men there, imo, is an Irishman, Mgr Paul Tighe. It cannot be long before he is a bishop. One of the creepiest, most unpleasant specimens I have encountered happens also to be an Irishman, by co-incidence. Thankfully he seems to have moved on. My point is there are very fine people working in the Curia, as well as some rather unpleasant ones - as anywhere. But they are all motivated by a desire to serve the Church. A priest of my own diocese works very closely with the Holy Father, based in the Secretariat of State and I stand in great admiration for him. So to set the Curia up as some malignant, evil force intent on thwarting true progress is a terrible parody.

I'm afraid your own list of necessary changes or developments are dooming you to an endless frustration and unhappiness. That's not because of the malignant Curia, but because your expectations are unreal. The Curia is not akin to a political party's policy office. Those things you want are just not on their radar.

I think the Curia is in need of a massive restructuring and some joined-up thinking between the various dicasteries. As it is, I think they are like a collection of medieval Italian duchies, all doing their own thing. Contrary to fletcher christian's jest, they need a tighter rein.

Here is Mgr Tighe again, talking about the dicastery of which he is Secretary and how it seeks to serve the worldwide Church.

But I suspect you mean the CDF, whose job it is to promote the doctrine of the Church and to challenge those who promote contrary doctrines. I'm afraid, they're simply doing their job .....

Alas, my expectations are quite realistic, what inspired my comment was that one of the things you do hear in Ireland a lot is "perhaps under a new Pope, x can happen". In a round about way I am saying that it won't. There is no Cardinal Martini this time. Celibacy and Contraception will remain as stumbling blocks unless a miracle happens.

I do of course retain a thoroughgoing belief in miracles and the Holy Wisdom may well flow in unexpected ways.. unless we get a Pius XIII.

As a post script, I might have an idea who your other Irishman is. If it is the same gentleman, I wholly concur with your judgement and sincerely hope he has the Vatican job equivalent of distributing the staples.

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CL
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quote:
There is no Cardinal Martini this time.
And thank God for that. Though there was no serious prospect of him being elected last time anyway. Ratzinger won every ballot convincingly and Martini only managed 9 votes in the first ballot.

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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria

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Zach82
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I admit the possibility that my perceptions of Benedict's ecumenism might be colored by what some of his supporters tend to think of ecumenism.
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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Well, I would be the first to put my hands up and admit that I was wrong in anything that I say or do - but my personal view, and stress that it is my personal view, is that I do not believe that the sense of the faithful has been adequately received on some issues.

It is an entirely under-appreciated witness of modern Western Catholicism that we have clarified perfectly the difference between "Catholic laity" and "Catholic faithful". Not only are they not coterminous, they can resist utterly any attempt to bring them into proximity. Any remaining naivety on this score has by now for sure been beaten out of the episcopate. The unresolved question is what to do about that. Though the cynic in me wonders how much of the worry about losing sheep really is a worry about losing worldly goods and power... Matt 10:9-10 turns out to be a necessary condition for Matt 10:14.

quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
I do of course retain a thoroughgoing belief in miracles and the Holy Wisdom may well flow in unexpected ways.. unless we get a Pius XIII.

It is an interesting matter, this power of the name that the pope chooses. Indeed, many a traditionalist prays fervently for another Pius. Perhaps a Gregory XVII would be more appropriate...

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Ronald Binge
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It is an interesting matter, this power of the name that the pope chooses. Indeed, many a traditionalist prays fervently for another Pius. Perhaps a Gregory XVII would be more appropriate...

Even that could go two ways: either in fond memory of Gregory XVI, the Pope who opposed the introduction of gas lighting and railways to the Papal States, or the Gregory XVII of Morris West's The Clowns of God.

As for what to do about those not fully obedient to the Magisterium may I suggest this:


The Spanish Inquisition and The Comfy Chair

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Some might prefer a John XXIV.
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CL
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Some might prefer a John XXIV.

Probably those with a totally false impression (wilfully or not) of John XXIII.
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Ronald Binge
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quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Some might prefer a John XXIV.

Probably those with a totally false impression (wilfully or not) of John XXIII.
Pacem in Terris suggests otherwise. At least solid documents can't be revised out of their meaning.

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Older, bearded (but no wiser)

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Some might prefer a John XXIV.

Probably those with a totally false impression (wilfully or not) of John XXIII.
Indeed. Those of the Vatican II sort forget that Pope JOhn was the author of "Veterum Sapientiae" and was quite "conservative" on many matters. How the Liturgy was debased in the application after the Council would have horrified him for instance
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New Yorker
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How does the Pope chose his name? I've always been under the impression that he's asked soon after election - very soon - and he makes a choice. So I wonder if every cardinal going into the conclave thinks about what name they'd choose. I don't really see that at all. So the new pope just has to think quickly?
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Gwai
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I wouldn't know, but I'd presume those that are most likely to be chosen think or pray about it beforehand. I think you'd have to be more than human to not think about being chosen when you are in a place where it's a real possibility, particularly if you think you would do the work well.

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Some might prefer a John XXIV.

Probably those with a totally false impression (wilfully or not) of John XXIII.
Indeed. Those of the Vatican II sort forget that Pope JOhn was the author of "Veterum Sapientiae" and was quite "conservative" on many matters. How the Liturgy was debased in the application after the Council would have horrified him for instance
I don't think you can assert with any degree of honest confidence that John XXIII would have been horrified by early post-V2 liturgy. Actually, we can't know how John XXIII would have reacted/responded to developments and exigencies after his death. The world moves on, and the Church is part of that world, even if only in a reactionary way (at worst). The world of 1972 was not the same as the world of 1962, and of course this is even truer for the world over the ensuing decades. You have to look instead, I think, at the temperament, personality, and "spirit" of the individual to suss out how they might have responded to ongoing developments that in point of fact only unfolded after their deaths.

I would almost equally have suggested wishing at least to see a Paul VII, but knew that would involve having to justify that with the legacy of Humanae Vitae. Again, I think you can only look at that encyclical as a function of the context of its time, including the forces then operating within the Vatican. In the case of both John XXIII and Paul VI being potential models for their successor decades on, it should be remembered that we can only suggest how analogous traits in a pontiff so many years later might hypothetically play out, especially given the more conservative legacies of JPII and Benedict.

This all leaves out the question of wishing for a JPIII modelled on the person of JPI -- simply because it's difficult to competently speculate on how that papacy would have unfolded over a lengthier duration than was to be the case. He did seem promising...

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
So I wonder if every cardinal going into the conclave thinks about what name they'd choose. I don't really see that at all. So the new pope just has to think quickly?

It usually takes several elections to find a new pope. Often it takes several days. Generally the future pope would have ample warning through that process, even time to sleep on it. That said, I wonder if there's a sort of unofficial but widely agreed upon understanding of the symbolism of the names. Or whether each candidate relies on his own reading of papal history...

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Anglican_Brat
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I never believed that John XXIII was this great liberal messianic figure who would make the RCC a more high liturgical version of TEC, (which I must admit, some doe-eyed liberal Catholics seem to imply).

The Blessed John XXIII, I suspect, would be more open to collegiality and dissent. I suspect he would be quite conservative on some matters, but he would not silence Hans Kung, and even though he might find Matthew Fox a bit "unique", I suspect Fox would still be in the RCC fold.

[ 16. February 2013, 23:55: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:


The Blessed John XXIII, I suspect, would be more open to collegiality and dissent. I suspect he would be quite conservative on some matters, but he would not silence Hans Kung, and even though he might find Matthew Fox a bit "unique", I suspect Fox would still be in the RCC fold.

I don't know about that. It was during his pontificate that the Holy Office "monitum " was issued against Teilhard de Chardin
It was easier treatment then under Pius XII. And Chardin was mild compared to the likes of Kung and Fox

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Ronald Binge
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quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Some might prefer a John XXIV.

Probably those with a totally false impression (wilfully or not) of John XXIII.
Indeed. Those of the Vatican II sort forget that Pope JOhn was the author of "Veterum Sapientiae" and was quite "conservative" on many matters. How the Liturgy was debased in the application after the Council would have horrified him for instance
I love going back to actual texts rather than interpretations of them. Here's the text in English of Veterum Sapientia: Veterum Sapientia in English

It rightly endorses Latin as the common language of the RCC and makes good and cogent arguments for that - but for communications to and from the centre, and there is no insistence that it must be used as the language of day to day worship. It also encourages the study of (liturgical) Greek and the Syriac languages. It is an Apostolic Constitution of common sense and not a manifesto for liturgical conservatives.

Just to reinforce the point, here is the crucial paragraph.

quote:
Since "every Church must assemble round the Roman Church,"8 and since the Supreme Pontiffs have "true episcopal power, ordinary and immediate, over each and every Church and each and every Pastor, as well as over the faithful"9 of every rite and language, it seems particularly desirable that the instrument of mutual communication be uniform and universal, especially between the Apostolic See and the Churches which use the same Latin rite.

When, therefore, the Roman Pontiffs wish to instruct the Catholic world, or when the Congregations of the Roman Curia handle matters or draw up decrees which concern the whole body of the faithful, they invariably make use of Latin, for this is a maternal voice acceptable to countless nations.



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Older, bearded (but no wiser)

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Ronald Binge
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quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:


The Blessed John XXIII, I suspect, would be more open to collegiality and dissent. I suspect he would be quite conservative on some matters, but he would not silence Hans Kung, and even though he might find Matthew Fox a bit "unique", I suspect Fox would still be in the RCC fold.

I don't know about that. It was during his pontificate that the Holy Office "monitum " was issued against Teilhard de Chardin
It was easier treatment then under Pius XII. And Chardin was mild compared to the likes of Kung and Fox

Ottaviani was the Cardinal in charge of the Holy Office/Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and also the lead conservative in the Curia. It was Ottaviani who lead the charge against de Chardin. See here:
Cardinal Ottaviani

This analysis in the National Catholic Reporter, I believe accurately sums up where Fr Ratzinger stood at the time of the Council and cogently points out that he has been consistent in his position since Vatican II - but that his and the previous pontificate have been those of the conservative wing of the reformers. He is no Siri or Ottaviani. Thankfully. Insight into the reforming party at Vatican II

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Older, bearded (but no wiser)

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Forthview
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For me the really wonderful thing about John XXIII was that he was a person who had spent many ,many years away from the Vatican,away from Catholic Italy also.He was for a long time in the secular,though by tradition Muslim, Turkey
where clergy were not allowed to wear religious habits.this was followed by more years in France,eldest daughter of the Church perhaps,but a country which had ,like Turkey, complete separation between the religious and the secular sphere.This long experience of life outside of traditional Catholicism made him in many ways more open to the world that his hieratic predecessor who was in my lifetime my first experience of the papacy,the 'pastor angelicus' of the prophecies of Malachy,Pius XII.
John XXIII smiled,and when you see photographs or film of his public appearances usually either the pope and more importantly those he was meeting were smiling and happy to see him. In this way he simply made the world a better place to be.Those who look back to the brief pontificate of JP I usually focus on his smile.
I hope that above all the new pope will be a 'papa sorridente',a smiling pope,who will be able to transmit to others that happiness which comes of serving Christ .

The gentle smile of Benedict XVI has been noticed over the last period of time. His words today at his penultimate Sunday Angelus were very moving. Do we choose 'io o Dio' ? myself (in first place,of course) or God ?
It must be God who has first place.

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Earwig

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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
One of the finest men there, imo, is an Irishman, Mgr Paul Tighe.

I met Mgr Paul Tighe a couple of years ago, and I was so impressed by him. He and his department seemed utterly focussed on serving the Church.

quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I think the Curia is in need of a massive restructuring and some joined-up thinking between the various dicasteries. As it is, I think they are like a collection of medieval Italian duchies, all doing their own thing.

That was my impression from visiting the Vatican - the operation was just massive. I'm CofE and was coming with pre-conceptions (and prejudices?) that everything would be tightly controlled from the top. I did not think that once I'd been there.
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Doublethink.
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It is possible to successfully run an organisation like that - there is some interesting research on how Bletchley Park worked during the WWII. Heard about it on radio 4, but I can't find a link.

Anyway the gist was that Bletchley was the anti-thesis of how organisations are conventionally supposed to be managed - 100s worked there and didn't know what each other were doing. But the organisation was very successful

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Golden Key
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The Reuters news network has an interesting article: Pope Will Have Security,Immunity By Remaining In The Vatican.

I'd been wondering if that was a factor. (And if we can't avoid the Dead Horse of abuse by clergy, we can start a DH thread. But I think there's room for discussing how/whether the legal logistics are affecting his decision to stay in the Vatican.)

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
The Reuters news network has an interesting article: Pope Will Have Security,Immunity By Remaining In The Vatican.

I'd been wondering if that was a factor. (And if we can't avoid the Dead Horse of abuse by clergy, we can start a DH thread. But I think there's room for discussing how/whether the legal logistics are affecting his decision to stay in the Vatican.)

From the same article -


quote:
Another consideration was that if the pope did move permanently to another country, living in seclusion in a monastery in his native Germany, for example, the location might become a place of pilgrimage.
... and tourism of course. 1000s visit the Vatican for this purpose.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Golden Key
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Yes, that, too. It surprised me when I read the article, because I hadn't thought of that. And I suppose some folks might decide that HE is still the true pope, which could trigger another schismatic mess.
[Paranoid]

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And if we can't avoid the Dead Horse of abuse by clergy, we can start a DH thread.

Some folks have argued that it should be a DH, but currently it isn't. Best not to tangent this thread, however, if any of you do want to discuss this some more.

Barnabas62
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passer

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Fascinating.
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Anglican_Brat
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Matthew Fox shares his opinion

I detect a tone of bitterness...

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SeraphimSarov
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I see Fox gets a plug in for his book after getting off his high horse

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Boogie

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From the article -

quote:
According to La Repubblica, the dossier comprising "two volumes of almost 300 pages – bound in red" had been consigned to a safe in the papal apartments and would be delivered to the pope's successor upon his election.
Poisoned chalice? Maybe his reasons for resigning - age frailty etc - were also a carefully considered reaction of 'I can't deal with this'?

My first thought (which I pushed back as uncharitable ) when I heard of his resignation was 'there is scandal here'.

[Frown] I feel for ordinary Catholics who don't need their foundations shaking.

[ 22. February 2013, 05:49: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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IngoB

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
[Frown] I feel for ordinary Catholics who don't need their foundations shaking.

Ordinary Catholics would feel that the foundations of their faith are shaken by the existence of a homosexual network among prelates?

Maybe somewhere deep in Africa, but they are unlikely to get the news anyhow. In the West, this will rather demonstrate that saying the word "obviously" can indicate many different things...

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fletcher christian

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When did the Pope call Thich Nhat Hahn the anti-Christ?

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Evangeline
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
[Frown] I feel for ordinary Catholics who don't need their foundations shaking.

Ordinary Catholics would feel that the foundations of their faith are shaken by the existence of a homosexual network among prelates?

Maybe somewhere deep in Africa, but they are unlikely to get the news anyhow. In the West, this will rather demonstrate that saying the word "obviously" can indicate many different things...

What I find unbelievable is that the existence of a homosexual network amongst Priests would lead to the Pope resigning. If there is a scandal it's got to be bigger than that or is the organisation so morally bankrupt that men having sex with other consenting adults and then being blackmailed brings down a papacy but multiple cases of rape and mistreatment of children around the world is hushed up and the perpetrators are protected over decades and shielded from civil justice.
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CL
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Everyone loves a conspiracy theory. [Snore]
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Evensong
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A normally reasonable and rational acquaintance of mine posted an awful article from some stupid website that was highly inflammatory claiming the Pope resigned because of crimes against humanity and was seeking immunity under Italian law.

Such charges included:

" documented crimes of child torture, trafficking and genocide linked to Pope Benedict and Vatican officials"

"In Canada alone, the Roman Catholic Church and its Vatican agents have been found guilty of responsibility for genocide and the deaths of at least 50,000 aboriginal child children in the Jesuit-initiated Indian residential school system, that operated until 1996.

In Ireland, more than 10,000 women suffered and were exploited in the Catholic-run Magdalene Laundries, where many of them died. Similar church-run institutions all over the world have caused enormous mortality, disease and ruination for millions of children. And yet the church has never been held accountable or prosecuted for these deaths and the theft of enormous wealth from entire nations."

I don't want to link to the website because it's already said it's thrilled to have received 300,000 hits and it totally doesn't deserve anymore.

It implies the Catholic church is intentionally engaging in criminal acts.

Jaysus effing Christ.....the stupidity of some people knows no bounds.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

In Ireland, more than 10,000 women suffered and were exploited in the Catholic-run Magdalene Laundries, where many of them died.

That's actually true of course, Though you would expect that insitutions that held thousands of inmates and operated for over two centuries would have had quite a few deaths just at random.

I don't see what the soon-to-be-not-Pope has to do with it though. They were set up long before he was born, the abuses that the Irish State is accused of colluding in were committed while he was a university professor in Germany, and they were already under investigation and being closed down before he got to be Pope.

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Crśsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
A normally reasonable and rational acquaintance of mine posted an awful article from some stupid website that was highly inflammatory claiming the Pope resigned because of crimes against humanity and was seeking immunity under Italian law.

Which ignores the rather obvious point that as the head of state of Vatican City the Pope would have more legal immunity if he didn't resign.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It implies the Catholic church is intentionally engaging in criminal acts.

Well, I'm pretty sure you don't run what amounts to a slave labor network like the Magdalene Laundries for over a century purely by accident, but as ken points out the only connection the current Pope has with them is institutionally. The few heads of state that have been brought to trial for the misdeeds of their government (e.g. Slobodan Milošević) have only been regarded as responsible for things that happened during their rule, not every past misdeed of the state they represent.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I feel for ordinary Catholics who don't need their foundations shaking.

Ordinary Catholics would feel that the foundations of their faith are shaken by the existence of a homosexual network among prelates?

Fair point - I will put my unwarranted empathy away.

[Smile]

[ 22. February 2013, 15:47: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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sebby
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
So I wonder if every cardinal going into the conclave thinks about what name they'd choose. I don't really see that at all. So the new pope just has to think quickly?

It usually takes several elections to find a new pope. Often it takes several days. Generally the future pope would have ample warning through that process, even time to sleep on it. That said, I wonder if there's a sort of unofficial but widely agreed upon understanding of the symbolism of the names. Or whether each candidate relies on his own reading of papal history...
My money is on Gregory.

To use 'Benedict' would be too obvious a link with what had gone immediately before, and provide a little confusion as the former pontiff is still alive; 'John Paul III' might be seen as too presumptuous and wanting to be another 'super-pope' as it were; 'Paul VII' might awaken an image of a Hamlet-like figure (to use John XXIII's phrase about Montini); 'John XXIV' too obviously a reforming agenda, and many in the College would recall that all Johns have short pontificates; 'Pius XIII' would send out too clear a possible restorationist theme, and give rise to shrieks from the unthinking about 'Hitler's pope' and all that twaddle; Leo a possibility as Leo XIII was gentle, intelligent and mildly reformist.

Which of more modern name uses leaves...Gregory. And a distinguished past with 'Gregory the Great'.

This might be an interesting choice for members of the English Church - however you may wish to interpeet that.

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Pancho
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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
This might be an interesting choice for members of the English Church - however you may wish to interpeet that.

Yes. It reminds everyone of the Italian Mission to the Angles.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Fair point - I will put my unwarranted empathy away.

[Smile]

The sympathy is appreciated but remember it has been just over 10 years since news of the scandals broke in the U.S. Most peoples' faith was not shaken by that or by subsequent rumors.

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we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Brother Oscar
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
When did the Pope call Thich Nhat Hahn the anti-Christ?

In another essay Fox writes that 'the Vatican' declared Nhat Hahn the antichrist. Being a fan of Nhat Hahn, I was surprised and wanted to follow this up. However, the only source for this online is Matthew Fox and he fails to substantiate the accusation.

Ironically Google will point you to sites accusing John Paul II and Benedict XVI of being the antichrist for engaging in inter-religious dialogue with among others Buddhists.

Nhat Hahn's book Living Buddha, Living Christ reports cordial and enlightening exchanges with lay Catholics and clerics, including the odd cardinal - none of whom appear to regard him as the antichrist.

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Thurible
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HH Pope Benedict XVI is to be known as... HH Pope Benedict XVI

I think his successor should go for Innocent.

Thurible

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Doublethink.
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Why can't he have a new name - what about Luke, Mark or someone suitable penitent like Dismas.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Thurible
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Well, I quite the idea of Onesimus too, if only to enjoy people stumbling over it.

Thurible

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Jon in the Nati
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I'd like to see Adrian. Adrian VII. It is a good strong name, and recognizable to modern ears. But it is also old enough that it doesn't come with a ton of baggage.

Julius IV wouldn't be bad either. I'm also partial to Felix, but there would be issues with numbering because two of the five popes with that name are now considered antipopes; awkward.

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fletcher christian

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Cardinal O'Brien seems to have sensed a weakness in the force allowing him an opportunity to talk about women clergy again!

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Staretz Silouan

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Matthew Fox shares his opinion

I detect a tone of bitterness...

Fox invented the Rave Mass. That alone should prevent sensible people from taking anything he says seriously.

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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
My money is on Gregory.

I beat you on that one, see above.

(On the off-topic question of the Magdalene laundries, the commentary by Brendan O'Neil was interesting.)

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:


(On the off-topic question of the Magdalene laundries, the commentary by Brendan O'Neil was interesting.)

Thanks for that. Interesting.

Anti-Catholicism seems to be getting almost as bad as Islamophobia.

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