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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: White Smoke! Discuss the new pope...
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I believe some of his successors compared Borgia to St Peter.
Here is a parade of bad popes.
They rank Borgia as the worst, but I'm not sure that seems justified based on the information given in the paragraphs.
[ 14. March 2013, 12:06: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I believe some of his successors compared Borgia to St Peter.
Here is a parade of bad popes.
They rank Borgia as the worst, but I'm not sure that seems justified based on the information given in the paragraphs.
I'm kind of chuffed to see the top 5 includes the 2 responsible for digging up the body of Pope Formosus. Yep, twice.
They say everyone has one novel in them. Mine involves the goings on in that period, because when I first read about them I was utterly transfixed.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I have long thought that their lack of docility was essentially a rather Protestant failure to develop a Catholic habit of mind of thinking with the Church.
Howzabout you make the ecumenical gesture of not using "Protestant" as a dirty word for Catholics you don't like? ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
Question: What is all this talk of curial reform? What is wrong with the curia and what should be done about it? Or, is all this talk just talk?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
From what i've read so far I think Francis will transform the Church and make it far more relevant and applicable to the real world.
Benedict, despite being a pious and much beloved intellectual heavyweight, IMO wasted his papacy on trivia. Deeply immersed with theological and liturgical minutiae, while entirely failing to look up and engage with the serious issues of the world outside. He spent his years instead wrestling with issues that only people already deep in the faith care about. Important concerns maybe, but I think he got lost in them, to the detriment of the Church as a whole.
Benedict 'preached to the choir' and no one else. I think Francis will try to preach to the world.
Whether the world will listen or not is another question.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
They say everyone has one novel in them. Mine involves the goings on in that period, because when I first read about them I was utterly transfixed.
They also say that for most it is best if their novel stays in them.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Humility is hardly the opposite of dignity. I've worked with/for some reasonably high-powered people in the past, and if you ask me the ones who came out looking more dignified were the ones who treated me like a proper human being rather than relegating me to an afterthought just because I didn't have an impressive position like they did.
As usual, you miss my point. But I guess this is partly my fault here, since I was being vague on purpose. FWIW, I was thinking of gestures like this one (the picture). Now, on one hand it is a sign of humility to kneel publicly before a Protestant minister (and Fr Raniero Cantalamessa, a well-known RC charismatic) to receive a blessing. Or at least I choose to interpret this as a sign of humility, rather than say as direct support for Protestantism or spiritual egalitarianism. On the other hand, I think it is injurious to the dignity of his office as RC archbishop, in particular to do so publicly. This is not about "talking down" to people, this is about letting your actions in office represent that office properly. And while I do not agree with the rad-trad hatred, I do not believe that he should have done that.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Thank you, Ad Orientem and IngoB. I will have to read more. My understanding of Vatican II was that it intended to make liturgy more accessible to all Catholics.
True. And in some sense it surely succeeded. In other senses, not so much. By the way, with reference to your handle here: I used to be into Zen Buddhism, and a pretty "strict" version at that (led by a monk who used to train the novices at Eiheiji temple). I was very lucky to have the "old style" mass readily available when I became interested in Christianity and later Catholicism. Even when done badly, it still is compatible with contemplation (Buddhist "meditation" roughly is comparable with what Christians call "contemplation"), but if it is done well it is very encouraging for contemplation. If you have anything to do with seriously practising Buddhism, then I can basically guarantee that you will enjoy the "old style" mass. It really is a different beast to the "new style" mass.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
To that, Robert Armin, how much of the church body actually do understand Latin? Especially at a level of serious comprehension. And given the rate of travel amongst the general population of Catholics* in the world, how important is that?
The done thing was (and is) to have a bi-lingual missal. But other than for the readings, I think the relevance is less than you would think. On one hand, you quickly learn by heart the necessary parts, in particular the key phrases and your responses. On the other hand, the whole approach is much more about "doing" (or indeed "not doing") than "understanding". If you are from a Buddhist background, then I may not have to explain at length why this can be a good thing. In Zen I used to chant the Heart Sutra. In Japanese. Of course it was good to study it in a version I could understand (at least by language). But it would be simplistic to say that it would have been much better if I had chanted it in English. It would also be simplistic to say that there would not have been any advantage to chanting it in English. It just isn't that simple.
[ 14. March 2013, 13:54: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Hawk: Didn't Benedict admit what you are saying? I seem to recall that he has the idea of a smaller church with more committed faithful. In other words, before we can evangelize the world, we must evangelize ourselves. Francis may put this differently, but I doubt he'd disagree entirely with Benedict.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
That's probably true. But the Borgia Pope - in his own context - was not, in some respects, a bad Papal ruler compared to some of his predecessors. Still not a name to be proud of, but there were much worse examples of personal and papal excess than Borgia. The post-rennaissance bunch has largely been a shining light of propriety, in comparison! But all this is relative. It's unlikely Pope Alexander (VI) was seen as being particularly unusual in his pontificate, or his personal life, at the time.
Here's a somewhat more detailed description of why Alexander VI was "a very very, very very, very, very bad pope", even by the standards of his time. The short version:
quote:
I applauded her concision at the time, but when she had moved on my friends immediately turned on me and (with the full pressure of a common language demanding thoroughness) asked, “Why was he so bad? I mean, this is the high Renaissance right before the Reformation – weren’t all the popes incredibly corrupt and terrible? You’ve been telling us stories about catamites and elephants and brothels all day; what made Alexander VI so exceptional?”
It is a fair question. The papal throne was indeed at its most politicized at this point, a prize tossed back and forth among various powerful Italian families and the odd foreign king, and Italy remains littered with the opulent palaces built with funds embezzled by families who scored themselves a pope. My best short answer is this:
1. They were Spaniards, and the Italians hated that, so all possible tensions were hyper-inflamed.
2. Instead of the usual graft and simony, they tried to permanently carve out a personal Borgia duchy in the middle of Italy, and when that was going well, they tried to turn the papacy into a hereditary monarchy.
3. They very nearly succeeded.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Tubifex Maximus
Shipmate
# 4874
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I believe some of his successors compared Borgia to St Peter.
Here is a parade of bad popes.
They rank Borgia as the worst, but I'm not sure that seems justified based on the information given in the paragraphs.
Indeed! They've missed out Julius II; my favourite bad pope. Surely he and Alexander VI have to be wrestling for the top title?
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Sit down, Oh sit down, sit down next to me.
Posts: 400 | From: Manchester | Registered: Aug 2003
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858
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Posted
Yesterday evening, I told my 6-year old that we have a new Pope. He said, somewhat downcast, "But I liked the old one!"
But then I suppose a Pope that you've actually seen in the flesh is always going to be quite special.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
They say everyone has one novel in them. Mine involves the goings on in that period, because when I first read about them I was utterly transfixed.
They also say that for most it is best if their novel stays in them.
I wasn't aiming to suggest otherwise...
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubifex Maximus:
Indeed! They've missed out Julius II; my favourite bad pope. Surely he and Alexander VI have to be wrestling for the top title?
Here's the same author I cited in my last post dealing with Giuliano della Rovere, a.k.a. Pope Julius II. The write-up deals mostly with the downfall of Borgia power and its influence on the philosophy of Machiavelli, but the packet version of Julius II goes something like this:
quote:
Julius II brought peace to Italy and saved thousands of lives. Then he started a new war. This is Giuliano della Rovere, referred to in his own lifetime and after as the Warrior Pope, and as “Il Papa Terribile”. This is an infinitely ambitious man made tired and bitter by thirty years of waiting, ten of them wrestling with terrible Borgia enemies. This is a pope who likes to ride in armor. His is not an ambition which ends with wealth and power. He is “Julius” and will remind the world that the pope is Emperor, successor to the Caesars. . . . He also brings more humanism to the Vatican, stocks its libraries, has his beloved Michelangelo (a complicated dynamic if ever there was one) decorate the new Sistine Chapel with neoclassical art and figures of pagan sibyls mixed among the Hebrew prophets to reinforce the fact that the ancient philosophies revived by the humanists are part of his Christianity as much as anything. But the humanism he brings is all in service of power: empire, law, Rome, Constantine, reminders of the sovereignty of Rome and Italy and the higher sovereignty of Julius. He is a pope for whom means seems to mean nothing, and ends everything. And he is incredibly effective, and remakes the papacy as no one had imagined it could be remade.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I think you're saying something important, and I don't understand it at all.
Please explain.
Moo
I'm sorry, Moo. I should not have used a jargon word - "dicasteries" - without explaining it.
"Dicastery" is the generic term for a Vatican Department. These departments come with various names - Congregations, Tribunals, Councils, Commissions etc. This explains what I failed to do.
F1 (does Bernie Ecclestone own that expression) served on the Congregations for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, for Clergy (Priests and Deacons) and for Institutes of Religious Life and Societies of Apostolic Life (Members of Religious Orders). He knows how these departments function by virtue of his membership of their governing bodies and his experience of them as a diocesan bishop.
My point then - important or not - is that he is not an outsider who won't know what the problems are (or often who the problems are) or how the place works, but rather he's one who is familiar with the problems and their working but not tainted by having been an insider with personal commitments, loyalties, debts.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Croeses, you're quite right.
Borgia was only less bad compared to some others. Maybe I should've said that more clearly. However, I said he wasn't 'unusual' for his time. Which clearly he wasn't! Popes with children being moved into high places, powerful mistresses, warlike aspirations, capacity for settling personal vendettas, phenomenal abuse of church wealth etc etc - par for the course, I'd say. People may have been appalled, but few of them surely would've been surprized, and of the 'surprized' fewer still could've been cardinals or vatican-dwellers.
However, I probably have overestimated his better points and the usefulness of his papacy. I was trying to be fair to the guy!
Naturally, he was heavily criticized at the time as you quite rightly point out. Not only because of his atrocities, but because he so inconveniently stood in the way of those who wanted to be where he was. The Spanish v. Italian thing was a huge factor in Borgia's unpopularity. Nothing like a bit of xenophobia to keep the knives sharp!
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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bad man
Apprentice
# 17449
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
They say everyone has one novel in them. Mine involves the goings on in that period, because when I first read about them I was utterly transfixed.
They also say that for most it is best if their novel stays in them.
Lord Harries, former Bishop of Oxford, wrote in a book review in the Guardian:
quote:
“It is said that everyone has two books in them: a good book and a bad one. The good book is the story of their life and the bad one is an account of what they believe.”
Posts: 49 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Nov 2012
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Croeses, you're quite right.
I love hearing that!
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Borgia was only less bad compared to some others. Maybe I should've said that more clearly. However, I said he wasn't 'unusual' for his time. Which clearly he wasn't! Popes with children being moved into high places, powerful mistresses, warlike aspirations, capacity for settling personal vendettas, phenomenal abuse of church wealth etc etc - par for the course, I'd say. People may have been appalled, but few of them surely would've been surprized, and of the 'surprized' fewer still could've been cardinals or vatican-dwellers.
I think you're underestimating the Borgias. Their activities went well beyond the usual graft and simony of the day.
quote:
What Alexander and Cesare made now was different. Alexander gave a big hunk of the papal states to Cesare, as a permanent gift. The cities within the Papal States were governed by papal “Vicars,” i.e. nobility granted rule over sub-territories within the papal lands much as Dukes and Counts are granted sub-territories in a kingdom by a king or emperor. These vicars were in theory appointed by the pope and could be replaced by him, though in practice the position was by custom passed along noble lines from father to son. To depose them all and give their lands to his son as the new vicar was thus technically legal but practically unthinkable, and an as great a shock to the political scene as if a king of France had suddenly deposed half his top nobles. It also implied Alexander’s intention to leave these territories in Borgia hands permanently. Next Cesare raised armies and started, on small pretexts, attacking neighboring city-states and territories, ejecting the current rulers and adding them to his private Borgia kingdom. (“What’re ya gonna do about it? My dad’s the pope!”) A new blotch appeared on the European map. Let me repeat: a new blotch appeared on the European map, a kingdom out of nowhere, carved out in the heart of Italy, a kingdom which no longer belonged to the pope, or any Italian house, but to the Borgias. Whether Cesare became pope next or not, he would be Duke — perhaps soon King — of an ever-growing chunk of the world. No pope had done this. No pope had done anything close to this.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Thank you, IngoB, that does put it into a clearer light.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Croeses, I'm quite happy to eat my words about Borgia!
The most recent biography I've read on him was (I think) Hibbert's, which I'm sure wouldn't've pussy-footed around the man's faults. But it did spend a lot of time in the battles and regions and politics of the era which might've softened my view of him as a person in his own right; in that it's always harder to spot the viper with the longest tooth when you're living in a snake pit!
(I also can never get the image of Adolfo Celi out of my head when I think 'Borgia' either - which can't help...!)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
TradWorld is in fits. We're all doomed. I think they're right to be worried even if it is a bit ironic seeing as they're committed papalists.
Yes, saying mass in Latin facing east is so much more important than an emphasis on pastoral ministry to the poor.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Actually, apologies to IngoB. This is a bit of a tangent. Sorry for that. I'll give over now.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
Yes, saying mass in Latin facing east is so much more important than an emphasis on pastoral ministry to the poor.
They are equally important, and shockingly were done together for a thousand years. One does not preclude the other (unless, of course, one is trying to demonize traditionalists).
This little girl has it right.
[ 14. March 2013, 15:39: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
An interesting, transitional choice.
One commentator I heard yesterday suggested that for good or ill, the cardinals don't seem to think a long papacy is necessarily good for the church. Certainly JPII's early years were more vibrant than his later years. I can remember that well, and I'm 55 and not Catholic!
So if the Cardinals--who are almost all older than I am--are indeed somewhat suspicious of the prospect of a 20+ year long papacy, these shorter-term popes may become the norm--may indeed be the norm--instead of being considered transitional.
Of course, it wouldn't be the first time some commentator was pulling his remarks out of his ass to fill air time.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Someone at the New York Times seems horrified that the new pope is a Catholic.
Yes--I suppose that I should expect this, but if I facepalmed every time I saw a comment to the effect of "He's so conservative--he doesn't support women's ordination, abortions, or same-sex marriage!" then my forehead would be one massive, throbbing bruise.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Thank you, Ad Orientem and IngoB. I will have to read more. My understanding of Vatican II was that it intended to make liturgy more accessible to all Catholics.
To that, Robert Armin, how much of the church body actually do understand Latin? Especially at a level of serious comprehension. And given the rate of travel amongst the general population of Catholics* in the world, how important is that?
*Assuming that to be consistent with the general world population.
The point about the Latin Mass, as I was taught growing up, was that you could go anywhere and understand it, follow it, feel at home. I had a missal with the Latin on one side and the English on the other. After hearing the Latin week after week, and being able to refer simultaneously to the English, of course I learned, what all the Latin prayers meant. I didn't mean I could get to grips with Cicero! But I could follow, and participate in, the Mass. Of course the scripture readings and the sermon were in English, and if I'd gone to Japan they'd have been in Japanese--but I'd have been at home with the liturgy itself.
So I absolutely understand the point of view of people who lament the passing of the Latin Mass. At the same time, I myself think it's important that the liturgy be in one's own language; I think one's participation is probably more intimate and heartfelt then.
I'm no longer a Catholic so I'm pronouncing as an observer, but think those who prefer the Latin Mass should still be allowed to have it, and without difficulty. But that the vernacular should be the norm.
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Pondering.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I keep seeing the stuff about the new pope's views on homosexuality, abortion and female priests on my Facebook friends' posts. I posted "In other news, the pope is Catholic" in response to the first one I saw, then gave up. A 76-year-old priest adheres to the teachings of his church -- what a shock!
That Francis I is a strong advocate for the poor is very encouraging.
[ 14. March 2013, 16:02: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
It can't be reduced to an argument between Latin versus vernacular. It's about what the prayers actually say and continuity. Most traditionalists would rather have the old liturgy in the vernacular than the new in Latin. Unfortunately there is no provision to use the vernacular in the old liturgy and this needs to be addressed. By not addressing this the traditionalists have shot themselves in the foot somewhat. I'm no longer RC so I guess it's a little irrelevant but I understand the discomfort of the traditionalists regarding the new pope.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
It can't be reduced to an argument between Latin versus vernacular. It's about what the prayers actually say and continuity. Most traditionalists would rather have the old liturgy in the vernacular than the new in Latin. Unfortunately there is no provision to use the vernacular in the old liturgy and this needs to be addressed. By not addressing this the traditionalists have shot themselves in the foot somewhat. I'm no longer RC so I guess it's a little irrelevant but I understand the discomfort of the traditionalists regarding the new pope.
I've been to precisely one "old liturgy". It was in a chapel of the London Oratory. It was in Latin, but that was really irrelevant as most of the priest's words were said in an inaudible mutter. It was a dispassionate affair, over within twenty minutes. The priest presided like someone fulfilling a tedious duty - joyless, and with an expression on his face (the few times we saw it) as if he had just found a decaying gerbil in the chalice. But at some point, the gerbil must have been disposed of, because the priest received Communion. Alone.
Throughout, three black-mantilla'd ladies clicked their rosaries like Norns in a bad production of Götterdämmerung.
Please - I don't need any more reasons not to be a Catholic.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Ah! Low mass. Don't even get me started on that as I would consider it an abuse. As for some parts being inaudible that is the norm in both the Roman and Byzantine rites, for instance, but usually the choir sings during those points but then in a low mass there is no choir or anything else for that matter. In the East low mass is unheard of.
[ 14. March 2013, 16:38: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've been to precisely one "old liturgy". It was in a chapel of the London Oratory. It was in Latin, but that was really irrelevant as most of the priest's words were said in an inaudible mutter. It was a dispassionate affair, over within twenty minutes. The priest presided like someone fulfilling a tedious duty. . . . Throughout, three black-mantilla'd ladies clicked their rosaries like Norns in a bad production of Götterdämmerung.
This has been my experience at Extraordinary Form celebrations also.
Like Cara, who posted above, I was brought up in the days before Vatican II to follow the Latin mass in my Latin-English missal. I was studying Latin in school and so I had some understanding of the text, but what I didn't understand I could still follow in the translation. Mind you, Sunday mass would have its share of mantilla'd little old ladies clicking their Rosaries, but I paid no attention to them.
I am no longer Catholic either, but I would really like to see a celebration of the old liturgy, in Latin, by a priest who understood what he was saying and said it out loud, with conviction -- not in an inaudible mutter as part of a tedious duty.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I have long thought that their lack of docility was essentially a rather Protestant failure to develop a Catholic habit of mind of thinking with the Church.
Howzabout you make the ecumenical gesture of not using "Protestant" as a dirty word for Catholics you don't like?
I thought that Trisagion's comment was absolutely on the mark. Schism is habit-forming. I've seen it TEC as well, when some of the brittlest Anglo-Catholics make alternative oversight for themselves almost an ultimatum. This would make sense, I grant, if the diocesan were a woman, so that they doubt that she were a bishop at all. But otherwise, WTF? There's nothing Catholic, and everything Protestant in the worst way, about rejecting, merely on subjective personal preference, the ministry of those assigned to care for you by the collegial decisions of the body to which you belong.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Can a Pope who had two Italian parents really be considered non-European?
That is about as Argentinian as it gets, unless one of his parents was Spanish. I used to run around with a native-born Argentinian mining lawyer (even their mining lawyers are a lot of fun to drink with, by the way,) named Diego Paravicini. Only about 10% of Argentinians are Mestizo, and less than 2% are of full-blooded indigenous descent.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I thought that Trisagion's comment was absolutely on the mark. Schism is habit-forming. I've seen it TEC as well, when some of the brittlest Anglo-Catholics make alternative oversight for themselves almost an ultimatum. This would make sense, I grant, if the diocesan were a woman, so that they doubt that she were a bishop at all. But otherwise, WTF? There's nothing Catholic, and everything Protestant in the worst way, about rejecting, merely on subjective personal preference, the ministry of those assigned to care for you by the collegial decisions of the body to which you belong.
Prioritizing one's personal preferences may be a common vice for Protestants, but none of the Reformers framed the Reformation or their theologies in such a manner, and indubitably would have been disgusted by such an attitude.
The fact is, self-righteousness is a vice for both Catholics and Protestants, and it's a very poor attitude indeed to blame all your sect's issues on those outside of your sect. Those traddies are not Protestants and don't have Protestant ideas. They are Catholics with ill-conceived ideas.
[ 14. March 2013, 16:48: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
Two points on the 'Tridentine' Mass:
First, low mass is not an abuse, but it is most certainly not the norm for the Extraordinary Form. As a general matter, it is only to be celebrated where a Missa Solemnis or Missa Cantata is not possible. Of course, if low mass were to be treated as the norm or the default (as, in practice, it sometimes is) that would be an abuse.
Secondly, to Amanda's comment about inaudible muttering, we should note that the missal does direct that the canon of the mass is to be said silently. The only person who really is supposed to hear it is the priest himself. Now, I too prefer the canon to be said aloud, such that it would be just barely audible to the congregation. But the fact that it is said quietly does not reflect on the priest, except that he is following the rubrics.
As to whether it was a tedious duty, well, I've seen priests both Anglican and Catholic recite mass in English in what can only be called a spirit of tedious duty. It is wrong no matter what language it is in.
[ 14. March 2013, 16:49: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Ah! Low mass. Don't even get me started on that as I would consider it an abuse. As for some parts being inaudible that is the norm in both the Roman and Byzantine rites, for instance, but usually the choir sings during those points but then in a low mass there is no choir or anything else for that matter. In the East low mass is unheard of.
Unfortunately, to celebrate a High Mass you need a deacon and subdeacon, and I haven't seen many of them dropping out of the sky recently. If the old liturgy were restored as the norm, most parishes would go for years on Low Masses - or, at best, Low Mass with a couple of Norn-type hymns.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:
Yes, saying mass in Latin facing east is so much more important than an emphasis on pastoral ministry to the poor.
They are equally important, and shockingly were done together for a thousand years. One does not preclude the other (unless, of course, one is trying to demonize traditionalists).
<Start of Ecclesiantical tangent, made only to respond to the above>
No, the 2 above specifically-mentioned things are NOT equally important. Celebrating the liturgy facing east and in Latin is totally not necessary. On the other hand, celebrating the liturgy with a properly reverent attitude is.
But ,there is not one single way to accomplish this. I am old enough to remember the old Latin mass as a child, and, while still a youth, the Novus Ordo came into effect. While I was very happy that the liturgy was now in English and in a simpler, clearer structure, IngoB makes a very good point about the meditative value of the old form of the Mass for many. I thought it was a bad idea to utterly do away with the old form. Likewise I very much liked TEC's 1979 liturgy but didn't think that the "28 liturgy should have totally stopped.
Thus, I certainly am not demonizing those who prefer the older forms, and I would ask for the courtesy that we who have found spiritual nourishment in the more contemporary forms not be demonized either. I hope Francis doesn't stop the Extraordinary Form. But i'd also be happy if he got rid of the dreadful new English translations of the Novus Ordo and brought back the ones replaced.
</End of Ecclesiantical tangent, made only to respond to the above>
Back to non-liturgical aspects:
This very historic development amazes me a bit, and so far I am really cheered by this new Pope, starting with his wonderful choice of a papal name, and that he comes from Latin America, his use of public transportation, and especially his ministry to, and speaking up for, the majority of people who are poor. Giving the organization out of which he has been chosen i wouldn't expect him to have views on things like gay marriage, abortion, etc., other than the ones he has -- that would be a most unrealistic expectation.
Re his role during the time of Argentina's Dirty War, it seems to me (and I can't find it now) that Amnest International said he wasn't guilty of certain things of which he was accused.
I have a good feeling about the man. It seems to me that he has the potential to do a lot of good for Christianity in general and indeed humanity in general, and my prayers are very much with him. He must be feeling a bit overwhelmed right now I would think. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
[ 14. March 2013, 17:04: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Unfortunately, to celebrate a High Mass you need a deacon and subdeacon.
And a master of ceremonies who really knows his stuff, to say nothing of thurifer, boat boy and acolytes who know what they're there for and won't just stand around giggling.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
It can't be reduced to an argument between Latin versus vernacular. It's about what the prayers actually say and continuity. Most traditionalists would rather have the old liturgy in the vernacular than the new in Latin. Unfortunately there is no provision to use the vernacular in the old liturgy and this needs to be addressed. By not addressing this the traditionalists have shot themselves in the foot somewhat. I'm no longer RC so I guess it's a little irrelevant but I understand the discomfort of the traditionalists regarding the new pope.
I've been to precisely one "old liturgy". It was in a chapel of the London Oratory. It was in Latin, but that was really irrelevant as most of the priest's words were said in an inaudible mutter. It was a dispassionate affair, over within twenty minutes. The priest presided like someone fulfilling a tedious duty - joyless, and with an expression on his face (the few times we saw it) as if he had just found a decaying gerbil in the chalice. But at some point, the gerbil must have been disposed of, because the priest received Communion. Alone.
Throughout, three black-mantilla'd ladies clicked their rosaries like Norns in a bad production of Götterdämmerung.
Please - I don't need any more reasons not to be a Catholic.
Inaudible, rushed Low Masses without communicating was the experience of the vast majority of Irish Catholics. The only Latin Mass Society of Ireland people I ever met were not very pleasant people, two of whom had a very serious go at a priest friend of mine for having the "wrong" sort of chalice.
The funny thing is that I personally have a lot of regard for the EF liturgy and am interested in learning Church Latin, it's just I haven't met anyone else that I could possibly get on with who attends it. That set of posts on Rorate Caeli after +++Francis' election didn't surprise me one bit.
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:
Yes, saying mass in Latin facing east is so much more important than an emphasis on pastoral ministry to the poor.
They are equally important,
You can't possibly be serious.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
Pardon the double post, but i meant to add this: No disrespect to Benedict -- as myself a somewhat bookish person who likes cats, i rather liked him personally -- but the idea of having the previous pope hanging around the Vatican made me wonder a bit how much independence the new pope might really have. Thus it is interesting that Francis, in referring to Benedict, used the term "Bishop emeritus" rather than "Pope emeritus" (the term supposedly preferred by Benedict)
In any event, this is a very historic moment.
[ 14. March 2013, 17:18: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
What I think I meant to say is that liturgics and pastoral ministry to the poor are equally important for a priest. I should have made that clearer.
And I am serious about that.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Can a Pope who had two Italian parents really be considered non-European?
That is about as Argentinian as it gets, unless one of his parents was Spanish.
So I believe. I was interested to hear of the long historical links between Argentina and Italy. I think the new Pope's father was a miner. (Just seen a photo on a news-feed of Francis holding up an Argentina football shirt - so no split loyalties in that direction!)
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Can a Pope who had two Italian parents really be considered non-European?
That is about as Argentinian as it gets, unless one of his parents was Spanish. I used to run around with a native-born Argentinian mining lawyer (even their mining lawyers are a lot of fun to drink with, by the way,) named Diego Paravicini. Only about 10% of Argentinians are Mestizo, and less than 2% are of full-blooded indigenous descent.
And in Argentina, ethnically the most European of Latin American nations, persons of Italian descent outnumber persons of Spanish descent.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I have just heard (on BBC Radio 4's PM programme) that Pope francis has only one lung - but apparently that is since childhood, so he's obviously done all right since.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I was reading the BBC website and came across this:
quote:
For the Church establishment, it will be a novelty to have a Jesuit in charge - members are supposed to avoid ecclesiastical honours and serve the Pope himself.
It led me to wonder if Francis regards himself as in some sense providing a service to the Pope Emeritus, (allowing him to retreat).
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
If Father Ted wasn't consecrated as Bishop, I'm not interested. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
An interesting, transitional choice.
One commentator I heard yesterday suggested that for good or ill, the cardinals don't seem to think a long papacy is necessarily good for the church. Certainly JPII's early years were more vibrant than his later years. I can remember that well, and I'm 55 and not Catholic!
So if the Cardinals--who are almost all older than I am--are indeed somewhat suspicious of the prospect of a 20+ year long papacy, these shorter-term popes may become the norm--may indeed be the norm--instead of being considered transitional.
Of course, it wouldn't be the first time some commentator was pulling his remarks out of his ass to fill air time.
Is it safer to have a person living out their 8th decade of life than someone with time and inclination to change things? Mid to late 70s is old, and the most like things to be changing is the remaining years of life are related to failing bodily functions.
Isn't it that the signal with a old guy pope voted in by a group of old guy cardinals is that they distinctly do not want change. Transitional really means 'no change wanted' methinks.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Slightly more balanced source.
(Crosspost snap)
So .. he looked after his own, while the country went to hell in a handbasket. That seems to be more the actions of a politician than that of a moral exemplar.
Every person I have ever met or read who lived through a situation like that has said judging how people made decisions is very difficult, even for those who were there at the time. War, be it external or one waged by the state on its citizens, is messy.
Yes, judgements of morality of the actions of people during those times can be made. But to do so properly requires a bit more then what we have been getting in those articles.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I am no longer Catholic either, but I would really like to see a celebration of the old liturgy, in Latin, by a priest who understood what he was saying and said it out loud, with conviction -- not in an inaudible mutter as part of a tedious duty.
I'm sure that there were "masses done badly" in the extraordinary form when it still was the only form. I'm even quite willing to believe that back then most masses were done badly. For one can say the same thing about the new form now, if one has high standards.
However, there are only two ways of messing up the extraordinary (old) form: you fail in execution (you make the wrong moves), or you fail to give this soul (robot mode). Whereas in the ordinary (new) form, you can mess it up in a myriad ways, and people do. The term "liturgical abuse" really came into its own with the ordinary (new) form. The reason is that the extraordinary (old) form is like a Japanese tea ceremony. Everything is strictly regulated, often in crazy detail. If you "abuse" that, you are not really doing it at all. Whereas the ordinary (new) form has a lot more flexibility and less precision to it, and furthermore is perceived to have even more flexibility and even less precision than is actually the case. So you can "push the envelope" because a deviation from the rule is not immediately apparent.
Furthermore, the "robot mode" failure of the extraordinary (old) form, while clearly not inspiring at least shuts the hell up. If nothing else, one can pray for twenty minutes in silence (the occasional mumble from the front excepted), have the Eucharist, and go home. The worst case scenario of the ordinary (new) form makes it essentially impossible to pray, with a steady assault on all senses in the most horribly trite manner. Now, there are people who look for other things when going to mass. And probably one could argue that they get their fix of say "community spirit" even when attending a bad ordinary (new) mass. But for me, the failure mode of the extraordinary (old) form just works a lot better.
A final thing then: I think this is a good time for enjoying the extraordinary (old) form. Because a good many of the groups that keep it up now are trying to get this really right in any sense of the word. Basically, they are trying to liturgically outdo the ordinary (new) form, that's part of their self-understanding. It is now mostly resources and lack of people that limits what can be done, not good will and effort. Generally speaking, look out for the FSSP or the ICKSP, and you should find some well done liturgies.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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