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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Bareback Mountain
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
Well seeing who started this thread, and chose the title for it, I hardly think you have a leg to stand on! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
Actually, I DO have a leg to stand on.
Homophobia is not just the preserve of supposedly straight people.
It's about internalised societal assumptions.
Calling a film which seeks to address serious issues "bareback mountain", especially in this day and age following the eighties nightmare of AIDS (yes, I remember it only too well), is homophobic.
It is immaterial whether or not the OP is considered to be beyond reproach
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
I didn't mean to imply he was beyond reproach (sorry Sine! ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) ), simply that it seems to me his reputation on the Ship consists almost entirely of:-
1) having exceedingly good manners
2) the fact that he is homosexual
Bearing these in mind, I hardly thought that you could accuse him of homophobia, in any usual sense of the word.
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
Read what I wrote more carefully.
It is immaterial whether the OP is considered to be beyond reproach, whether because of reputation or sexuality.
Mocking the name of the film in a homophobic way is not on. I don't give a hoot whether Sine is gay or not; calling the film "Bareback mountain" is childish and offensive.
Barebacking is having unprotected anal sex.
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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The Expatriate Theolinguist
Shipmate
# 6064
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Posted
How very kind of you to take offense on behalf of the many gay people on the Ship. Let's see how many gay Shipmates will agree with you...
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***waits for days***
Nope, seems like they don't mind. Offense is in the ear of the listener. That's why comedians get away with so much.
Good to see you back on the Ship, mrmister! Have you seen the film?
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Je suis une petite pomme de terre.
Formerly mr_ricarno, many moons ago.
Posts: 731 | From: Upstate New York | Registered: May 2004
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
Yes, it was very good.
Reinforced my view as a deconstructed gay that white picket fences and homosexuality don't mix, though.
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
Barebacking is having unprotected anal sex.
And is such a practice the sole preserve of the homosexual?
I think not.
And in any case, the term 'bareback' refers to any sexual act carried out without a condom and by straight or gay protaganists alike.
BTW, I watched Bareback Mountain on Friday and, apart from the first 40 minutes (which I spent enjoying the scenery and wondering if Heath Ledger had had his lips sewn together at some Wyoming fat camp), I didn't really rate it much. There were too many obvious pointers at what was going to happen. Some parts of it reminded of those Second World War films where a young RAF man will say 'It's my last OP tonight, Skipper, and then I'm off to marry the best girl in the world!'. And we all know what's going to happen.
Cosmo
[ 05. February 2006, 14:57: Message edited by: Cosmo ]
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
Don't be so PC, I never claimed it was.
I personally find the use of the term "bareback mountain" offensive. Just as women might find sexist humour offensive.
Whether or not the OP is gay, and whether or not straight people bareback, are utterly irrelevant.
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
I personally find the use of the term "bareback mountain" offensive.
And we should give a shit why?
Cosmo
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Ags
Knocked up
# 204
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Posted
mrmister, my gay male friends at work refer to the movie as Bareback Mountain. It's a pun, a play on words. Live with it.
Glad you enjoyed the film, but what on earth is a 'deconstructed gay?'
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I think that we are most ourselves at our best, because that is what God intended us to be. The us we really like, the us that others love to be with. Moth
Posts: 2707 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
If you do not give a shit about others, then why should others give a shit about you?
So why does it matter about a gay film?
Why does it matter about civil rights and the ability to be who you are without oppression from either other people or from internalised assumptions?
After all, you're the only one that matters in your universe, aren't you?
Am I causing you offense? So what
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
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mrmister
Shipmate
# 10850
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Posted
I do not accept that just because of same-sex attraction I have to accept a caricatured and obnoxious mindset commonplace in the mainstream.
I do not accept that just because the film concerns gay people, that it simultaneously is laughable.
It would not be laughable were it a moving love story between man and woman.
It would not be laughable were it a moving tragedy between man and woman.
So why, just because it concerns two men, should it be OK to laugh at it?
Oh, and just because some men at work choose to laugh along with it, that makes it OK doesn't it
Don't even.
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Just because you believe something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
Check out this link about Carl Sagan's Dragon: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
Posts: 417 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
If you do not give a shit about others, then why should others give a shit about you?
I'm a Church of England parson so they don't.
Cosmo
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
Can I just point out that dubbing the film "bareback mountain" is offensive and homophobic.
Of course you can.
Just so long as you are prepared to be told exactly how fuckwitted it is to point this out on this thread.
HTH, H&E Esq.
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrmister:
It would not be laughable were it a moving love story between man and woman.
It would not be laughable were it a moving tragedy between man and woman.
You sound pretty easy to please. Good to see you back, why not cool the hot-headedness a bit though.
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Evo1
Shipmate
# 10249
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Posted
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Just think how horrid I would be if I didn't have a Personal Relationship with Jesus
Posts: 1058 | From: Hull, England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
It's okay mrmister - you're not the only one offended by the thread title. But there it is.
I'm just trying to keep a sense of humor about it, which is hard to do as, like so many, I have a certain reverence for this beautiful work of art.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Ags
Knocked up
# 204
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Posted
My sincere apologies to anyone I offended by being amused at the thread title. I, too, consider Brokeback Mountain to be a very beautiful work of art and would be most happy if we could get back to discussing the film itself.
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I think that we are most ourselves at our best, because that is what God intended us to be. The us we really like, the us that others love to be with. Moth
Posts: 2707 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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fionn
Shipmate
# 8534
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Posted
I don't understand the hoopla surrounding The Kiss. In one of the episodes of 'Stargate: Atlantis', David Hewlett plants a much shorter but more passionate kiss on the lips of Paul McGillion. The kiss in 'Brokeback Mountain' looked more like a fumbling wrestling match.
My primary response to the movie was a sudden desire to go dancing and to plan a trip to Wyoming during the week of summer.
There was no tittering or snickering in the theater at any time.
Posts: 179 | From: horsecountry | Registered: Sep 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Where I live there was no hoopla surrounding a kiss, but there was some surrounding the fuck.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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fionn
Shipmate
# 8534
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Posted
This morning my pastor mentioned it as a movie to be spurned. I sent him an e-mail suggesting that the movie with some slight editting would be useful in the home missionary effort.
Ennis and Jack both had a huge gaping hole in their lives and a 'dash of Jesus' would have done them wonders. To see someone (even cinematically) with such a longing for love touched me deeply. Especially knowing that Jesus could possibly fill that gaping longing and allowed them to eventually come to grips with their situation. Ennis might have found the strength to admit his love and agree to live with Jack. Jack might have been able to keep his pants zipped except around Ennis.
Posts: 179 | From: horsecountry | Registered: Sep 2004
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Ennis and Jack both had a huge gaping hole in their lives and a 'dash of Jesus' would have done them wonders.
To someone who has suffered a lot at the hands of the Church, fionn, that sounds more than a little hollow. There have been times when a 'dash of Jesus' have cost some of us friends, lovers, and very nearly our lives.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
I don't think fionn was talking about a "dash" of Jesus so much as finding some hope in Jesus Christ. Something that is denied many gay people when they are driven away from the church. There are many ways in which the film could be instructive to churchfolk.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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CDLauffer
Apprentice
# 10983
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Posted
Just wondering...why would anyone wish to see a movie that praises adultery?
CDL
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Listen to "Light from the East" at www.byzantinecatholic.com radio
Posts: 10 | From: Joliet, Ill | Registered: Feb 2006
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
You could ask the folks at hollywoodjesusif you like.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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CDLauffer
Apprentice
# 10983
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Posted
I didn't see any comment on adultery. Could you direct me to one that does?
CDL
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Listen to "Light from the East" at www.byzantinecatholic.com radio
Posts: 10 | From: Joliet, Ill | Registered: Feb 2006
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
Praises adultery!!!???
The whole thing is a tragedy and not a simple catechism lesson in black and white.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Caz...
Shipmate
# 3026
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Just wondering...why would anyone wish to see a movie that praises adultery?
CDL
Have you seen it? It does absolutely nothing of the sort. It shows the devastation and pain that denial causes, no matter how justified the reasons for that denial might have been...
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"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard
Posts: 1888 | From: here to there | Registered: Jul 2002
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Caz...
Shipmate
# 3026
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Just wondering...why would anyone wish to see a movie that praises adultery?
Sorry for double post but I'm still thinking about this. Even if it DID "praise" adultery (whatever that means) why would that mean I shouldn't see it? Should I only see films where nothing ever happens that I disagree with or find negative? Should I therefore never watch a film where a person is killed, where people cause one another suffering, where someone overeats or tells a lie?
What a bland, bland world that would be.
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"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard
Posts: 1888 | From: here to there | Registered: Jul 2002
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RainbowKate
Shipmate
# 9331
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Posted
It certainly doesn't praise adultery; if anything it does the very opposite. It shows the pain and devestation wrought upon families when people try to pretend to be something they are not.
Posts: 1227 | From: Left at the loophole | Registered: Apr 2005
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
I don't think fionn was talking about a "dash" of Jesus so much as finding some hope in Jesus Christ. Something that is denied many gay people when they are driven away from the church. There are many ways in which the film could be instructive to churchfolk.
Indeed there are. Sorry, fionn, if I misinterpreted - I'm having an oversensitive day.
I'll also join in the chorus of those who are saying this film doesn't "priase" adultery. Since seeing it, I've been thinking a lot about what a classical-style tragedy it really is. So, citing my favourite classical tragedy again, I'd say this film praises adultery about as much as King Oedipus praises incest!
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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CDLauffer
Apprentice
# 10983
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RainbowKate:
It certainly doesn't praise adultery; if anything it does the very opposite. It shows the pain and devestation wrought upon families when people try to pretend to be something they are not.
Were the men married and did they have children? If the answer is yes and they followed their passions which resulted in the splitting of loyalties they committed adultery. I really don't care what people think about the blandness of my choices. My goal is holiness. If that isn't your choice that's your business. It's pretty clear to anyone that the point of the movie is to show that vows are secondary to passions. That is certainly not my choice for a way to live. If it's yours be proud of it. Don't pretend it's something other than it is.
I will not ever watch the movie. I don't believe adultery is a good thing.
CDL
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Listen to "Light from the East" at www.byzantinecatholic.com radio
Posts: 10 | From: Joliet, Ill | Registered: Feb 2006
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CDLauffer
Apprentice
# 10983
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RainbowKate:
It certainly doesn't praise adultery; if anything it does the very opposite. It shows the pain and devestation wrought upon families when people try to pretend to be something they are not.
What these men were is called married. They had taken a vow that that is their vocation. That is what they were. Every other relationship is secondary. It really doesn't matter how else you might justify their behavior. It is still adultery.
CDL
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Listen to "Light from the East" at www.byzantinecatholic.com radio
Posts: 10 | From: Joliet, Ill | Registered: Feb 2006
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
Clearly you haven't seen the film, so why even comment on it? I'm very offended by violence in filmmaking especially these days. But some films have themes beyond the violence. How about greed? I can't imagine only seeing films with orthodox Anglo-Catholic themes . It would make my life considerably poorer, I think.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
It is still adultery.
CDL
I think there is a misunderstanding here. Nobody has denied that for a married man to have a sexual relationship outside marriage, whether with a man or woman, is adultery. You are being challenged to say how the film *praises* adultery. Since you haven't seen the film, I suppose you can't say.
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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Manda
Shipmate
# 6028
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Posted
CDL.
Just cos a film shows something happening, eg adultery, it doesn't mean it's praising it.
And this may sound presumptious, but how can you tell what you think of the film, or analyse the spin it puts on their actions without seeing it?
I think in a way its similar to Munich, both were moving and powerful films that make you feel sad about the state of humanity and the way we treat each other.
[ 06. February 2006, 17:24: Message edited by: Manda ]
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'Hypnotically fabulous AND twinkly' - The Lad Himself
Posts: 1137 | From: Back in little old Wiltshire | Registered: May 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
What these men were is called married. They had taken a vow that that is their vocation. That is what they were. Every other relationship is secondary. It really doesn't matter how else you might justify their behavior. It is still adultery.
No one's saying they weren't committing adultery. But just because adultery is depicted doesn't mean it's praised. As Rainbow Kate said, this film shows the pain and devastation that results when people are not allowed to be themselves. Had the two main characters been allowed to be themselves, they wouldn't have gotten married, at least not to women.
ETA: cross-post, obviously!
[ 06. February 2006, 17:26: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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CDLauffer
Apprentice
# 10983
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
It is still adultery.
CDL
I think there is a misunderstanding here. Nobody has denied that for a married man to have a sexual relationship outside marriage, whether with a man or woman, is adultery. You are being challenged to say how the film *praises* adultery. Since you haven't seen the film, I suppose you can't say.
The attempt to be "who you really are" as a defense of adultery is a defense of adultery. No one has to see the movie to read the synopsis and the defense of the theme that has been posted here. Who these men really were were married.
CDL
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Listen to "Light from the East" at www.byzantinecatholic.com radio
Posts: 10 | From: Joliet, Ill | Registered: Feb 2006
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Manda
Shipmate
# 6028
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Posted
Part of the point CDL is that if they had been allowed to be who they were they wouldn't have got married in the first place. If they'd been allowed by the society to be together, this would have avoided much of the heartache and suffering that ensues on all sides.
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'Hypnotically fabulous AND twinkly' - The Lad Himself
Posts: 1137 | From: Back in little old Wiltshire | Registered: May 2004
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CDLauffer
Apprentice
# 10983
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manda:
Part of the point CDL is that if they had been allowed to be who they were they wouldn't have got married in the first place. If they'd been allowed by the society to be together, this would have avoided much of the heartache and suffering that ensues on all sides.
My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else. The only limitation has been they can't, or shouldn't, call it marriage. It's a lie. But then I suppose in the Alice in Wonderland world in which Western Society finds itself insulting Christians is a way of life. So people call whatever they want to whatever they wish. There is no avoidance of heartache when the best definition of ourselves is following ones lusts. But if that's the best a person can do no one is really stopping them.
CDL
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Listen to "Light from the East" at www.byzantinecatholic.com radio
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phoenix_811
Shipmate
# 4662
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
Were the men married and did they have children? If the answer is yes and they followed their passions which resulted in the splitting of loyalties they committed adultery. I really don't care what people think about the blandness of my choices. My goal is holiness.
First, according to this definition, they did not committ adultery. They followed their passions, but the following did not result in the splitting of loyalties. As is very clear in the written story, especially, the splitting of loyalties was prior to the following of passions.
I too have a goal of holiness. I think I would define that quite differently than you seem to be, however. Holiness is not an ethical category. Righteousness is an ethical category.
quote:
The attempt to be "who you really are" as a defense of adultery is a defense of adultery. No one has to see the movie to read the synopsis and the defense of the theme that has been posted here. Who these men really were were married.
CDL
No one is using the the attempt to be "who you really are" as a defense of adultery. No one is excusing them for committing adultery. Certainly, who Jack and Ennis really are caused them to sin (not homosexuality an sich but in committing adultery). Just as certainly, the adultery, at least as expounded biblically (committing adultery in the heart is the same as committing adultery physically), happened before any physical act took place between the two men.
What needs to be kept in mind is that the identity of the two men conflicted with their state of social being. This does not excuse what they did. But it should prompt forgiveness.
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"Preach the gospel to the whole world, and if necessary, use words." -St. Francis of Assisi
Posts: 487 | From: the state of confusion | Registered: Jun 2003
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
So all those anti-sodomy laws never had any effect?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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CDLauffer
Apprentice
# 10983
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else.
So all those anti-sodomy laws never had any effect?
Are you suggesting that there are never consequences for our actions or that there can be a society that can eliminate them? That is laughable. If a person wishes to do whatever they wish they are free to do it. Nothing can stop them.
CDL
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Listen to "Light from the East" at www.byzantinecatholic.com radio
Posts: 10 | From: Joliet, Ill | Registered: Feb 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
My point is that society has never barred anyone from being together with anyone else.
So all those anti-sodomy laws never had any effect?
Are you suggesting that there are never consequences for our actions or that there can be a society that can eliminate them? That is laughable. If a person wishes to do whatever they wish they are free to do it. Nothing can stop them.
CDL
How on earth did you get a suggestion of there being no consequences for our actions out of what I said. Of course there are consequences.
But the notion that gay people have always been free to do whatever they wanted is laughable. And stupid.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
CDLaufer, you're new here - and welcome.
Since you haven't seen this film, maybe your thoughts on homosexuality, sex outside marriage, gay marriage and blurred boundaries, etc, should be on other threads. You'll find quite a few of them on "Dead Horses".
Brokeback Mountain is a film about love, not lust. And you need to be careful before you assume that people's ability to love, as opposed to lust, depends on their sexual orientation.
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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Manda
Shipmate
# 6028
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Posted
Well it would be a spoiler to point out the particular consequences that ensues from them being gay, but they are certainly serious CDL, and can hardly be described as society allowing them to be themselves.
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'Hypnotically fabulous AND twinkly' - The Lad Himself
Posts: 1137 | From: Back in little old Wiltshire | Registered: May 2004
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CDLauffer
Apprentice
# 10983
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manda:
Well it would be a spoiler to point out the particular consequences that ensues from them being gay, but they are certainly serious CDL, and can hardly be described as society allowing them to be themselves.
Manda,
I think we agree, though I'm not sure.
Ruth,
I thought there were consequences for ad hominems such as you have thrown at me the last few posts.
Re: Consequences. If one chooses to not abide by natural law and the Church teaching one will have the consequences of such behavior. Until recently there were also societal consequences. So what? There are always consequences to actions. Again, it is not possible not to have consequences for actions. The film portrays two men who decide to abandon their families to whom they had made committments. Little else matters.
CDL
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Listen to "Light from the East" at www.byzantinecatholic.com radio
Posts: 10 | From: Joliet, Ill | Registered: Feb 2006
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RainbowKate
Shipmate
# 9331
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CDLauffer:
quote:
Originally posted by RainbowKate:
It certainly doesn't praise adultery; if anything it does the very opposite. It shows the pain and devestation wrought upon families when people try to pretend to be something they are not.
Were the men married and did they have children? If the answer is yes and they followed their passions which resulted in the splitting of loyalties they committed adultery. I really don't care what people think about the blandness of my choices. My goal is holiness. If that isn't your choice that's your business. It's pretty clear to anyone that the point of the movie is to show that vows are secondary to passions. That is certainly not my choice for a way to live. If it's yours be proud of it. Don't pretend it's something other than it is.
I will not ever watch the movie. I don't believe adultery is a good thing.
CDL
I never said adultery was a good thing; I certainly don't believe that it is. It always leads to heartbreak and brokeness. Were Ennis and Jack wrong in cheating on their wives? Yes, of course they were.
The point the film makes is that if society were different they would have remained a couple at the end of that first summer before either had become married. Jack wants them to lead a life together; Ennis has seen first hand what happens to men who "set up ranch together". It is, if anything, a film on what happens when we don't live our lives honestly. It in no way glorifies adultery. It shows the pain and anguish their wives endure, and the pain the men feel in their own dishonesty. That's why its such a beautiful film; it's about the frailty of humanity and where our mistakes get us.
If society were different there is no question that the two would not have married women, but remained together.
If you've actually lived with the consequences of being gay you're all too aware that this movie takes place in the same state where Matthew Shepherd, a young gay college student, was brutaly murdered only a few years ago. When you feel (as Ennis did) that your choice is being honest or being dead it's not so easy a choice.
Of course, you'd actually have to have seen the film to know any of this. Which you clearly have no interest in doing. So why are you here? I respect your right not to see, respect that the rest of us see the world in more than two colors.
Posts: 1227 | From: Left at the loophole | Registered: Apr 2005
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