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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: To Hell with your evil theology
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Reminds me of this picture
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yes, very much like it! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
Not to mention the women such as Hildegard of Bingen, who managed to overcome her sex and society and be proclaimed a Doctor of the Church.
Really?
quote:
And left behind a lot of amazing music and medical knowledge to boot.
Amazing indeed.
Some of it so amazing that it successfully spoiled her chances of ever being declared Doctor of the Church, while at the same time making her a pillar of New-Age-ism and the mother of a bewilderingly successful brand of quackery.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
There is another aspect to all of this, which I have experienced both directly in my own family and also more indirectly, and that is the apparent inability of at least some celibate priests to perceive the gravoty of the crime of child sex abuse. I would suspect that this inability stems largely from the fact that they are not parents themselves and, unless this is adequately addressed, whatever is (mis)pronounced from the Vatican ain't gonna change the situation on the ground much.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
As to Mary Magdalene being "Apostle to the Apostles"...
Gorgeous icon! And she actually looks like she might be from the Middle East rather than Sweden.
Of course the best is Donatello's version. She not only not Swedish, she's not even "hot."
I'll take one more try at this and then give up: Someone published a book of the Pope's writings about the apostles for children and, in order to explain what an "apostle" is describes them as "friends of Jesus." It is not a book about the friends of Jesus that reduces that group to the Apostles.
People seem to be following this line of reasoning:
- All the apostles are men.
- The Pope says that the apostles are "friends of Jesus."
- Therefore the Pope thinks that only men are friends of Jesus.
This involves a clear logical fallacy, since the category "friends of Jesus" is clearly not exhausted by the category "apostles.".
Of course we're talking about subjective impact here, not syllogistic logic, and given the reactions to this particular question among people on this thread (whom I generally consider to be, with only a few exceptions, of pretty high intelligence), I guess I will have to concede that this does in fact fall into the category of "things the Vatican has screwed up."
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
There is another aspect to all of this, which I have experienced both directly in my own family and also more indirectly, and that is the apparent inability of at least some celibate priests to perceive the gravoty of the crime of child sex abuse. I would suspect that this inability stems largely from the fact that they are not parents themselves and, unless this is adequately addressed, whatever is (mis)pronounced from the Vatican ain't gonna change the situation on the ground much.
I'm not a parent either, but I like to think I have a good perception of the gravity of child abuse. To say that only parents can have such a perception is simply wrong.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Hmmm...to say that "some non-parents don't seem to appreciate the gravity of paedophilia"<>"all non-parents fail to appreacite the gravity of paedophilia".
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
That's not what you said though. You said that they might not get it because they're not parents.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Yes I did. That doesn't mean that I think all non-parents don't get it.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
Not to mention the women such as Hildegard of Bingen, who managed to overcome her sex and society and be proclaimed a Doctor of the Church.
Really?
quote:
And left behind a lot of amazing music and medical knowledge to boot.
Amazing indeed.
Some of it so amazing that it successfully spoiled her chances of ever being declared Doctor of the Church, while at the same time making her a pillar of New-Age-ism and the mother of a bewilderingly successful brand of quackery.
Hildegard of Bingen got to Blessed but never made it to saint in four attempts (canonisation being a rather imperfect process in the 12th century.) She would have been a remarkable person in any age for her great unrestful Christianity, her forthright criticism of the faults of the Church, the breadth of her learning, her wisdom, her visions...and her music. She went on her final preaching tour at the age of 75. She was lucky to have been tithed to the Church and thus spared the usual fate of marriage and child bearing to some minor German nobleman.
There are three female Doctors of the Church all declared as such in the 20th Century - St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Siena; great writers, reformers, theologians and mystics both and St Therese of Lisieux.
Three towering figures and one rather sentimental even mawkish one, (which does not say much for the taste and discernment of Pope John Paul II, who named her as Doctor of the Church.)
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
Of course an actual victim of sexual abuse by a priest may understand it even more personally and painfully than either a parent or non-parent (a silly distinction as Marvin has pointed out.)
One of those victims, Geoffrey Robinson, went on to be a Bishop in the Catholic Church in Australia and recently spoke forcefully and critically on the Church's failure to deal with the sexual abuse scandal,as I pointed out earlier.
[ 02. August 2010, 14:41: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
There is another aspect to all of this, which I have experienced both directly in my own family and also more indirectly, and that is the apparent inability of at least some celibate priests to perceive the gravoty of the crime of child sex abuse. I would suspect that this inability stems largely from the fact that they are not parents themselves and, unless this is adequately addressed, whatever is (mis)pronounced from the Vatican ain't gonna change the situation on the ground much.
I'm not a parent either, but I like to think I have a good perception of the gravity of child abuse. To say that only parents can have such a perception is simply wrong.
You are quite right.
And of course there are also parents who don't have that perception.
However, Matt's observation is one I share.
I suppose the process of a person with tendencies to abuse changing into an actual abuser, is dependent on many factors.
I wouldn't be too hasty too dismiss not being a parent as one of the factors lowering the threshold between longings for sexual acts with children and the acting out of those longings.
Personally I think RC moral theology / ethics are easily abused to make certain horrible practices seem less horrible than others, thereby justifying them in the eyes of the abuser.
In the -far too- many years I've spent on RC-forums I've seen people (even conservative RC-priests) argue hierarchies of sexual sins where child abuse ranks pretty low, thereby making it an option preferable to e.g. sexual intercourse with consenting adults or masturbation. Granted, this was when the RCC as a whole was still in denial about the problem, or at least about the then still unimaginable extent of the problem.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
There are three female Doctors of the Church all declared as such in the 20th Century - St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Siena; great writers, reformers, theologians and mystics both and St Therese of Lisieux.
Three towering figures and one rather sentimental even mawkish one, (which does not say much for the taste and discernment of Pope John Paul II, who named her as Doctor of the Church.)
You may have lost count there.
Anyway, I agree that JP2 should have left Thérèse alone. She was doing quite well without his approval.
As for his taste and discernment, he was the pope that blessified Mel Gibson's favorite church-historian and mystic.
Least said, soonest mended.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
Of course the best is Donatello's version. She not only not Swedish, she's not even "hot."
Can't agree. She looks like a victim, not a conquering saint. Indeed she looks like somebody dumped a bucket of seaweed on her head. It's a hideous image.
Although the egg is supposed to be red (in that other one).
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
There are three female Doctors of the Church all declared as such in the 20th Century - St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Siena; great writers, reformers, theologians and mystics both and St Therese of Lisieux.
Three towering figures and one rather sentimental even mawkish one, (which does not say much for the taste and discernment of Pope John Paul II, who named her as Doctor of the Church.)
You may have lost count there.
Count it up with me. That would be Hildegard, Teresa and Catherine. 1,2,3.
If you are trying to score points, at least try to get your facts right. That was too easy.
[ 03. August 2010, 03:45: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
Three towering figures and one rather sentimental even mawkish one, (which does not say much for the taste and discernment of Pope John Paul II, who named her as Doctor of the Church.)
You may have lost count there.
Count it up with me. That would be Hildegard, Teresa and Catherine. 1,2,3.
If you are trying to score points, at least try to get your facts right. That was too easy.
(italics mine)
Add it up with me. 3 + 1 = 4
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
There are three female Doctors of the Church all declared as such in the 20th Century - St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Siena; great writers, reformers, theologians and mystics both and St Therese of Lisieux.
Three towering figures and one rather sentimental even mawkish one, (which does not say much for the taste and discernment of Pope John Paul II, who named her as Doctor of the Church.)
You may have lost count there.
Count it up with me. That would be Hildegard, Teresa and Catherine. 1,2,3.
If you are trying to score points, at least try to get your facts right. That was too easy.
Trying to score points? In Hell, home turf of the Silly Bullies? I wouldn't dare to.
Even if making Thérèse a Doctor of the Church was a mistake by a tasteless undiscerning pope, and even if Hildegard were ever to be declared Doctor of the Church by a similar pope, you would still have 2 towering figures, 1 (arguably) rather sentimental even mawkish one, and 1 patron saint of New Age and Quacks.
Given the sheer volume of the oeuvre of Hildegard there are bound to be gems of wisdom, deep faith and true insight to be found there. But taken as a whole it consists of embarrassingly indiscriminate collections of real and pseudo knowledge, and lots of superstitions sometimes bordering on witchcraft.
As a composer Hildegard indeed ranks among the great, but that would hardly be a reason to make her Doctor of the Church, would it?
But I should stop this because, apart from sheer entertainment value, if the perceived relevance of Hildegard isn't a DH, it should be.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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GoodCatholicLad
Shipmate
# 9231
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
Of course the best is Donatello's version. She not only not Swedish, she's not even "hot."
Can't agree. She looks like a victim, not a conquering saint. Indeed she looks like somebody dumped a bucket of seaweed on her head. It's a hideous image.
Although the egg is supposed to be red (in that other one).
I was thinking the same thing, I thought she looked like a wax figure that started to melt.
Posts: 1234 | From: San Francisco California | Registered: Mar 2005
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
If we're talking about canonized women, does Thekla count as a saint?
Her story is one of the stranger tales that didn't make the canon, and Tertullian didn't approve, but if there's any kernel of truth in it at all, she was an early example of female Christian leadership.
I've also wondered because being the odd hybrid protestant that I am, I keep an icon of her on my desk that was painted by a pastor-friend.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
If we're talking about canonized women, does Thekla count as a saint?
Yes.
Commemorated in the RCC september 23.
In Orthodox churches on september 24.
[ 03. August 2010, 17:46: Message edited by: opaWim ]
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Even if making Thérèse a Doctor of the Church was a mistake by a tasteless undiscerning pope...
I don't know much about St. Therese of Lisieux, but why was it (possibly) a mistake to make her a Doctor of the Church?
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
If we're talking about canonized women, does Thekla count as a saint?
Yes.
Commemorated in the RCC september 23.
In Orthodox churches on september 24.
She is titled Holy First-Martyr and Equal-to-the-Apostles in my handy-dandy Horologion.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
If we're talking about canonized women, does Thekla count as a saint?
Yes.
Commemorated in the RCC september 23.
In Orthodox churches on september 24.
She is titled Holy First-Martyr and Equal-to-the-Apostles in my handy-dandy Horologion.
Thanks. I didn't realize she was so highly regarded. I'm honored to have such an august likeness sitting on my desk.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Even if making Thérèse a Doctor of the Church was a mistake by a tasteless undiscerning pope...
I don't know much about St. Therese of Lisieux, but why was it (possibly) a mistake to make her a Doctor of the Church?
You'd better ask Duo Seraphim.
Personally I quite like Thérèse for a number of reasons, but apparently that casts doubt on my taste and discernment.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Even if making Thérèse a Doctor of the Church was a mistake by a tasteless undiscerning pope...
I don't know much about St. Therese of Lisieux, but why was it (possibly) a mistake to make her a Doctor of the Church?
You'd better ask Duo Seraphim.
Personally I quite like Thérèse for a number of reasons, but apparently that casts doubt on my taste and discernment.
There's a doormattish, depressive sentimentality to her writings that sets my teeth on edge. Rather like your passive aggressive posturing does.
To compare St. Therese of Lisieux in theological thought to St Catherine of Sienna and particularly to her fellow Carmelite St Teresa of Avila is risible and arguably cheapens the currency.
Similarly a great deal of what we now regard as non-scientific Aristelian guff was written in the Middle Ages by educated people and indeed by serious thinkers. But then you also make the mistake of equating Hildegard with her misguided New Age followers. Actually you have misread me. I never suggested that Hildegard should be made a Doctor of the Church - you did. I prefer the testimony of the leading church and political figures of her time who consulted her for her wisdom and listened to her preaching.
If Therese is supposed to be the model for female roles in the Church, then I'll take Hildegard of Bingen any day. Or Blessed Mary McKillop. Or any number of tough minded nuns.
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
...then I'll take Hildegard of Bingen any day. Or Blessed Mary McKillop. Or any number of tough minded nuns.
Or Mary Stigmata (AKA: The Penquin)
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
model for female roles in the Church
How topical ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Australians all let us ring Joyce
For she is young and free
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