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Thread: The "boycott, divestment, sanction" movement against Israel - is it wrong?
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Allan Cresswell:
Without recourse to a novel and minority interpretation of Christian Scriptures, why do Jews have such a right? What argument would compel secular governments to accept that the Jews have the right to a homeland - a right those same secular (post-war) governments consistently deny to other religious and ethnic group? [/QB]
The answer of course is that nothing would compel them. However something did in 1948. What was that something that 'compelled' the UN to do something that they have vainly tried to condemn ever since?
Perhaps you could tell me also what Ezekiel meant in ch 36:4 when he said:
"For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land"..the majority opinion if you will.
[ 26. October 2016, 09:42: Message edited by: Jamat ]
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Don't you dare try to use emotional blackmail to shut up your opponents.
Emotional blackmail be fucked.
As I pointed out very early in this thread (because I know from experience the kneejerk way in which all Christian supporters of Israel get smeared as dispensational premillenial Zionists) Israel does not enjoy divine sanction to do what it likes, and some of its actions are of legitimate concern to both outsiders and its own citizens.
What IS intolerable is criticism which comes from those who are thoughtlessly jumping on a fashionable bandwagon, and who ignore Israel's millennia-old connection with the land, the Jews' imperative need for a defensible homeland after the Holocaust, the ongoing threats which it faces from anti-Semitic elements within and without, and its outstanding (while far from perfect) human rights record when compared to other countries of the ME.
The problem of Israel's exceptionalism lies not with Israel's friends, but with its critics, who apply criteria to it which they do not apply to other countries.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Martin 60: invincibly ignorant interpretation
Better than having NO interpretation at all. Perhaps you could tell me what you think Joel 3 suggests or Zechariah chs 9-12?
Don't worry about Malachi 6:8 We would both agree on that.
Seriously, Martin, calling people ignorant just cos you disagree is just bad manners. I'd be happy to have a coffee some time if you ever visit NZ.
Love to.
Again that interpretation of my calling YOU, not your interpretation, invincibly ignorant, is as invincibly ignorant as your making ancient Jewish apocalyptic yearning fit the modern world.
I take the Hostly warning to heart as it came after a post of mine in which I said 'There is no sense on your side' in response to your 'For one fleeting moment I thought we might have a sensible conversation.', playing on sense and sensibility.
As for my interpretation of ancient Jewish Exilic apocalyptic 'prophetic' genre literature, it is entirely explained by that historical context.
What else could they possibly refer to and be inspired by?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
God is saying here that if you @#** with Israel, he will do the same with you.
If they enjoy such divine protection, why would the Israelis have to lie about the Liberty incident?
And centuries of persecution and the Holocaust. What, did God have a senior moment for a couple of millennia?
FFS! What DO you think I am saying? Certainly not that God endorses everything about current Israel; Certainly, that their preservation is a miracle,ie there is a divine purpose in their preservation and reestablishment as a nation on the original real estate.
What about current Israel suspends the laws of physics?
And where does your wooden God sanction profanity?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Don't you dare try to use emotional blackmail to shut up your opponents.
Emotional blackmail be fucked.
As I pointed out very early in this thread (because I know from experience the kneejerk way in which all Christian supporters of Israel get smeared as dispensational premillenial Zionists) Israel does not enjoy divine sanction to do what it likes, and some of its actions are of legitimate concern to both outsiders and its own citizens.
What IS intolerable is criticism which comes from those who are thoughtlessly jumping on a fashionable bandwagon, and who ignore Israel's millennia-old connection with the land, the Jews' imperative need for a defensible homeland after the Holocaust, the ongoing threats which it faces from anti-Semitic elements within and without, and its outstanding (while far from perfect) human rights record when compared to other countries of the ME.
The problem of Israel's exceptionalism lies not with Israel's friends, but with its critics, who apply criteria to it which they do not apply to other countries.
Bullshit. I criticise Israel because of the fucking awful things it makes Palestinian citizens endure. Like so many people who trumpet their support for Israel, you say that it's not above criticism but them level insinuations of anti-Semitism of anyone who actually dares to do so.
I have nothing more to say to someone who does something that shitty, not outside Hell anyway.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Allan Cresswell:
Without recourse to a novel and minority interpretation of Christian Scriptures, why do Jews have such a right? What argument would compel secular governments to accept that the Jews have the right to a homeland - a right those same secular (post-war) governments consistently deny to other religious and ethnic group?
The answer of course is that nothing would compel them. However something did in 1948. What was that something that 'compelled' the UN to do something that they have vainly tried to condemn ever since?
The holocaust. Plainly and simply the horror of the treatment of millions of innocent people. I guess working people to death, cremating people alive, torturing children, making lamps of their flesh was God's glorious plan to get Israel "back" to the Jews.
[ 26. October 2016, 12:09: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Allan Cresswell:
Without recourse to a novel and minority interpretation of Christian Scriptures, why do Jews have such a right? What argument would compel secular governments to accept that the Jews have the right to a homeland - a right those same secular (post-war) governments consistently deny to other religious and ethnic group?
The answer of course is that nothing would compel them.
Why not?
quote:
However something did in 1948.
The Holocaust, oil, British, American, French, Russian imperialism (Russia must have had plans to turn Israel in to a communist dictatorship using Jewish socialists and communists, is it did for Iran with Iranian ones which it successfully generically carried out in seven European countries).
quote:
What was that something that 'compelled' the UN to do something that they have vainly tried to condemn ever since?
The Holocaust, oil, British, American, French, Russian imperialism (Russia must have had plans to turn Israel in to a communist dictatorship using Jewish socialists and communists, is it did for Iran with Iranian ones which it successfully generically carried out in seven European countries alone).
quote:
Perhaps you could tell me also what Ezekiel meant in ch 36:4 when he said:
"For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land"..the majority opinion if you will. [/QB]
What's that 2,600 year old Exilic 'prophecy' that was fulfilled within a century got to do with the Holocaust, oil, British, American, French, Russian imperialism (Russia must have had plans to turn Israel in to a communist dictatorship using Jewish socialists and communists, is it did for Iran with Iranian ones which it successfully generically carried out in seven European countries)?
And I bet you that you believe in the 13th tribe. That God wouldn't let the real Jews suffer like that. Khazar scum wouldn't matter. Like Muslims believe He wouldn't let a prophet like Jesus suffer.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
What IS intolerable is criticism which comes from those who are thoughtlessly jumping on a fashionable bandwagon,
I'm sure all those posters are now thoroughly rebuked and corrected.
quote:
and who ignore Israel's millennia-old connection with the land,
Well, this is definitely a criterion nobody applies to any other country.
Very few populations in the world today are in the same location they were millennia ago. That's not normally a factor in deciding territorial rights. Plenty of Americans seem to continue to describe themselves as Irish-American, Italian-American etc generations after leaving those countries, but no-one suggests that those people consequently have territorial claims over Dublin or Rome. As a (mostly) Englishman I guess my millennia-old roots are in Germany and Denmark, but if Ms May goes full-on hard Brexit I don't think I get to claim residency rights in Germany and Denmark regardless.
quote:
the Jews' imperative need for a defensible homeland after the Holocaust, the ongoing threats which it faces from anti-Semitic elements within and without,
I think we are now on the fifth time of asking.
quote:
and its outstanding (while far from perfect) human rights record when compared to other countries of the ME.
'Having a better human rights record than Saudi Arabia' isn't exactly setting the bar very high.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
At some point, the facts of possession and who can assert ownership are enough to claim territory. Hence the confiscation of most of North America from the indigenous inhabitants, sometimes with compensation, sometimes without. The 16th to 19th century practices in this regard were thought of as a Good Thing, since, not so much. The last war in my vicinity was in 1885. The Métis and Cree people didn't stand a chance against the British Gatling guns. Probably less justifiable than the Israel situation, because the Brits were interested in conquest and control of lands without any ancestral claims. Although we have ongoing land claims, and rights to hunt wildlife and use resources issues, no one seriously thinks we're all going to leave. Particularly after being born here.
When does the situation of dispossession become an acceptable thing? And revanchism a no go? The UN said that Israel gets some lands, and they took over some more. Under what set of facts would they be induced to give the additional lands back? I'm thinking there are probably relatively few. This idea was current decades ago, but political experience appears to have resulted in Israel not believing that land for peace would ever work, and they decided to keep what they took. Will they keep expanding? Is it 21st century Manifest Destiny?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Rather than try to compare or justify on dubious grounds, let us keep it simple.
Why the fuck should Israel be allowed to perpetrate human rights abuses?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Why does any country?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Why does any country?
Nope. But at least two people on this thread seem to be saying Israel should.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
In the land of rainbows and clouds of cotton candy, everyone thinks everyone else is just great, they don't destroy other countries, they tolerate others' cultures, languages and religions. Israel is the same as all the rest. Not different.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think we are now on the fifth time of asking.
Awesome counting, Ricardus!
How about trying for double figures?
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
you say that it's not above criticism but them level insinuations of anti-Semitism of anyone who actually dares to do so.
Dares?
Criticising Israel is the popular and easy option.
Not only have I never said that all criticism of Israel is prompted by anti-Semitism, but I have explicitly said that there is justified criticism of Israel.
At the same time, while statements such as, "I'm not anti-Semitic, just anti-Zionist" can be true, they tend to set off the same warning bells as, "Of course, I'm not a racist, but.....", and with good reason.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think we are now on the fifth time of asking.
Awesome counting, Ricardus!
How about trying for double figures?
How about trying to answer the question in the link?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Israel is the same as all the rest. Not different.
Better than some, worse than others. But not deserving of any special exemption. And this thread is about Israel, not those other countries.
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
At the same time, while statements such as, "I'm not anti-Semitic, just anti-Zionist" can be true, they tend to set off the same warning bells as, "Of course, I'm not a racist, but.....", and with good reason.
Why? They are not the same thing at all. It is an convenient charge for Israel apologists to make so they do not need to defend wrongs, but it is not always "with good reason". And there are positions other than pro and anti Zionist. There is the position that most people on this tread appear to take that Israel existing is a settled question even though some question the method of its creation.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
At the same time, while statements such as, "I'm not anti-Semitic, just anti-Zionist" can be true, they tend to set off the same warning bells as, "Of course, I'm not a racist, but.....", and with good reason.
Whereas "I'm not against criticising Israel, but..." sets off rather the same warning bells with regard to anti-Palestinian racism. Said racism, incidentally, was the reason the great powers of the late 40s thought they could give divvy up Palestine how they chose and give huge chunks of it to white colonists: they didn't give two short shits about the native population. Same pattern as colonial exploitation everywhere. Remember that this was the era of the White Australia policy, residential schools in Canada and the US, the last gasps of Empire in the UK. The UN at this time was dominated by the Americas and Western Europe, having evolved from the victorious allies of WW2.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
But Jews had a right to a safe and secure homeland
For the fourth time: if Israel is so safe and secure, why the need to take extreme measures against the Palestinians?
It's not the Palestinians that measures are taken against. They were pawns , kept in camps for political purposes. In the 1950s Syria was appealing for labour. They would have been given free land. They were not allowed to go. It is the Islamic agenda that is using what happened in 1948 viz the flight of 600K Arabs at the behest of their own authorities to avoid the coming Jihad. In fact more than that number of Jewish refugees (about 850K)fled Arab countries to Israel at the same time. These were expelled mostly penniless from Muslim countries. The UN has never passed a resolution condemning that.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
It's not the Palestinians that measures are taken against.
I'm sorry, that's so far from being true that you're now on some different planet.
quote:
They were pawns , kept in camps for political purposes. In the 1950s Syria was appealing for labour. They would have been given free land. They were not allowed to go. It is the Islamic agenda that is using what happened in 1948 viz the flight of 600K Arabs at the behest of their own authorities to avoid the coming Jihad. In fact more than that number of Jewish refugees (about 850K)fled Arab countries to Israel at the same time. These were expelled mostly penniless from Muslim countries. The UN has never passed a resolution condemning that.
Palestinian refugees are political footballs in Lebanon and Syria - and to some extent in Jordan - but that's got almost nothing to do with the way that the Israeli military policies treat Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.
To say that grave violations of human rights are not occurring in the West Bank and Gaza as a direct result of Israeli government policy is a lie.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
But Jews had a right to a safe and secure homeland
For the fourth time: if Israel is so safe and secure, why the need to take extreme measures against the Palestinians?
It's not the Palestinians that measures are taken against. They were pawns , kept in camps for political purposes. In the 1950s Syria was appealing for labour. They would have been given free land. They were not allowed to go. It is the Islamic agenda that is using what happened in 1948 viz the flight of 600K Arabs at the behest of their own authorities to avoid the coming Jihad. In fact more than that number of Jewish refugees (about 850K)fled Arab countries to Israel at the same time. These were expelled mostly penniless from Muslim countries. The UN has never passed a resolution condemning that.
And your justification for using the dysphemism 'FFS' derived from 'FGS' is?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Irrelevant?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
It's not the Palestinians that measures are taken against.
Are you saying that the wall, military checkpoints, drone patrols, the Gaza blockade, and occasional bombing runs don't happen?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Irrelevant?
The same unreason and utter failure to acknowledge it, as in Jamat's interpretation of my calling his interpretation invincibly ignorant as calling him, ad hominem, invincibly ignorant, will prevail. I submit.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Well, maybe, but it seems to me that time and pixels would be better spent trying to pin people down over their response to the matter in hand, not the (un)reasoning behind their use of expletives.
Trying to make a connection between the two is getting close to ad hominem again if you ask me (unofficially).
[ 27. October 2016, 09:28: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Storm Warning
I've been keeping a pretty close eye on this thread and wish to make two clarifications.
1. We distinguish between "that is a bullshit argument" (allowable under C3) and "you are a bullshitter for making it" (not allowable).
2. We also distinguish between energetic ongoing disagreements and personality conflicts (C4). If there is personality conflict in play, take it to Hell, stop playing it out in a Purgatory thread.
If you don't like our distinctions, take the rulings to the Styx.
With that out of the way, please calm down. Some of you are very close to being named, under either C3 or C4 or both. And avoid either implicit criticism of a ruling - or junior hosting - as well. Either will also get you named.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
[ 27. October 2016, 09:47: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
It's not the Palestinians that measures are taken against.
Are you saying that the wall, military checkpoints, drone patrols, the Gaza blockade, and occasional bombing runs don't happen?
No but whatever military actions are taken are not directed vs Palestinians but terrorism.
Martin 60. Yes, you are correct.
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
That gets a pass as a cross-post, Jamat. Just.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
It's not the Palestinians that measures are taken against.
I'm sorry, that's so far from being true that you're now on some different planet.
quote:
They were pawns , kept in camps for political purposes. In the 1950s Syria was appealing for labour. They would have been given free land. They were not allowed to go. It is the Islamic agenda that is using what happened in 1948 viz the flight of 600K Arabs at the behest of their own authorities to avoid the coming Jihad. In fact more than that number of Jewish refugees (about 850K)fled Arab countries to Israel at the same time. These were expelled mostly penniless from Muslim countries. The UN has never passed a resolution condemning that.
Palestinian refugees are political footballs in Lebanon and Syria - and to some extent in Jordan - but that's got almost nothing to do with the way that the Israeli military policies treat Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.
To say that grave violations of human rights are not occurring in the West Bank and Gaza as a direct result of Israeli government policy is a lie.
Maybe the Israelis should just let the rockets fall freely among their citizens including the many Arabs who are Israeli citizens. That would be a plan..might even solve the problem. Maybe they should let the suicide bombers through to blow up buses..an even better plan.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
That gets a pass as a cross-post, Jamat. Just.
Sorry, was trying to say shouldn't have said it. FFS that is.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Maybe the Israelis should just let the rockets fall freely among their citizens including the many Arabs who are Israeli citizens. That would be a plan..might even solve the problem. Maybe they should let the suicide bombers through to blow up buses..an even better plan.
Clearly not.
But, acknowledging that acts of violence are a response to injustices would be a start. Suicide attacks require people for whom the prospect of blowing themselves up is preferable to the life they live. And, of course, having acknowledged that proceed to take steps to reduce the injustices that fuel violent attacks.
Increasing the injustice and oppression of the Palestinian people is counter productive, and just pushes more and more people into violence. What doesn't help is building new Jewish settlements on land belonging to other people, preventing innocent people from moving around their own land, putting up check points that make it impossible for people to get to a hospital when they need to, or to work or school, or for the products of their labour to get to a market to sell.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Maybe the Israelis should just let the rockets fall freely among their citizens including the many Arabs who are Israeli citizens. That would be a plan..might even solve the problem. Maybe they should let the suicide bombers through to blow up buses..an even better plan.
Nobody is denying that rockets are falling, though.
In contrast you're suggesting that the daily injustices that Palestinians put up with - including, for example, the confiscation of their land for "security purposes" which suddenly and miraculously becomes a settlement, the restriction of access to water, the dumping of raw sewage from an illegal settlement onto a neighbouring village field, the arbitrary hours of waiting at checkpoints for no apparent reason, the "administrative detention" of thousands of people for years in jail on no charge - doesn't happen. That's plainly a lie.
These things are well documented. And even ex commanders of the Israel Defence Force (of all people) are saying that they are counter-productive.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The UN must compensate the Palestinians.
If it won't, and it won't, Christianity must and should in the first place of course.
Rome must be ignored and subverted.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jamat.
I'm most impressed at your unqualified repentance. You don't have to apologize to me my friend. On the contrary I have to apologize to you as I didn't think you would respond.
The next step in the rehabilitation of your reasoning would be for you to accept that my calling your interpretation invincibly ignorant is not ad hominem within the rules of Purgatory.
That would blow me away.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
It's not the Palestinians that measures are taken against.
Are you saying that the wall, military checkpoints, drone patrols, the Gaza blockade, and occasional bombing runs don't happen?
No but whatever military actions are taken are not directed vs Palestinians but terrorism.
Martin 60. Yes, you are correct.
But their effects are felt across all Palestinians. If you want to argue that Israel is such a dangerous place that no other measures are possible to guarantee its citizens' safety then go ahead, but in doing so you will be tearing to shreds Kaplan Corday's claim that Israel is necessary or exceptional as a safe haven for Jews.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There is the position that most people on this tread appear to take that Israel existing is a settled question even though some question the method of its creation.
I think the argument over the method of Israel's creation is still 'live', insofar as AIUI the territorial claims on which Israel will not budge for the sake of peace are East Jerusalem and some of the illegal settlements. If one accepts the rationale behind Israel's creation - that is, the reoccupation of the ancestral Jewish homeland - then it is justifiable that these places should be Israeli. (AIUI the West Bank has historically *more* of a claim to being the Jewish homeland than much of the coastal section.) If one merely accepts the status quo then there is no real merit to Israel's claims.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think the argument over the method of Israel's creation is still 'live', insofar as AIUI the territorial claims on which Israel will not budge for the sake of peace are East Jerusalem and some of the illegal settlements. If one accepts the rationale behind Israel's creation - that is, the reoccupation of the ancestral Jewish homeland - then it is justifiable that these places should be Israeli. (AIUI the West Bank has historically *more* of a claim to being the Jewish homeland than much of the coastal section.) If one merely accepts the status quo then there is no real merit to Israel's claims.
Meh, I don't know - some recent comments from the top of Israel's military-political class suggests that there is some space for discussion about the settlements.
I think what is really the sticking point is (1) the Palestinian Right of Return, which Israel fears would lead to a large number of returnees upsetting the Jewish majority inside Israel and/or causing overcrowding in the Palestinian areas (leading to further instability) and (2) the status of Temple Mount.
On these the Israeli irresistible force has met the Palestinian immovable object. Palestinians refuse to accept a state without Jerusalem as the capital, many refuse to accept that the Temple had anything to do with Temple Mount etc.
As these are red lines, my reading is that up to now the Israeli position has been to throw up their hands and say "well, forget it then, you don't get to take part of Jerusalem", and any talk of Temple Mount is out of the question.
Which I think it basically why there will never be peace between the Palestinians and Israelis. There is no reason for the Israelis to discuss anything - as that would mean they had to give up stuff, land and control; there is nothing to talk about regarding Temple Mount (I think both religions/sides basically see the long term destruction of the other on that blasted bed of old stones) and there is no way that the refugees can be accommodated.
The settlements are actually strategically an advantage to Israel as it breaks up the Palestinian urban areas into Bandustans, which makes the control of millions of people so much easier as well as preventing organisation of a viable military force.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Israel is the same as all the rest. Not different.
Better than some, worse than others. But not deserving of any special exemption. And this thread is about Israel, not those other countries.
You make the point. Israel is surrounded by hostile countries.
And the difference is the extermination of Jewish people in an unprecedented industrial fashion, the culmination of Christian hatred against them. They need a life raft state lest there be a repeat. I suppose we could argue that the Palestinians are paying for 2 millennia of violence against Jews.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Jamat.
I'm most impressed at your unqualified repentance. You don't have to apologize to me my friend. On the contrary I have to apologize to you as I didn't think you would respond.
The next step in the rehabilitation of your reasoning would be for you to accept that my calling your interpretation invincibly ignorant is not ad hominem within the rules of Purgatory.
That would blow me away.
quote:
Posted by Barnabas62 before the above post:
Storm Warning
I've been keeping a pretty close eye on this thread and wish to make two clarifications.
1. We distinguish between "that is a bullshit argument" (allowable under C3) and "you are a bullshitter for making it" (not allowable).
2. We also distinguish between energetic ongoing disagreements and personality conflicts (C4). If there is personality conflict in play, take it to Hell, stop playing it out in a Purgatory thread.
If you don't like our distinctions, take the rulings to the Styx.
With that out of the way, please calm down. Some of you are very close to being named, under either C3 or C4 or both. And avoid either implicit criticism of a ruling - or junior hosting - as well. Either will also get you named.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Host Hat On
Martin60
Your post is a clear violation of my Storm Warning post and as such constitutes a Commandment 6 offence. I'm reporting you to Admin.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Host Hat Off
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Might I direct attention to the Styx?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
You make the point. Israel is surrounded by hostile countries.
And yet we are talking about the abuse they do within the borders they claim.
quote:
I suppose we could argue that the Palestinians are paying for 2 millennia of violence against Jews.
So, the Palestinians were not there, but they still inflicted this violence? The people who did the most damage to Jews live thousands of miles from the contested areas. The overwhelming majority of people occupying Israel came from other places with a 2 millennia gap of persecution by anyone anywhere close to the region.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
As I read it, that was no prophet's point - Europeans and Americans felt guilty about their treatment of the Jews, but decided that the cost of absolution would be borne by the Palestinians.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Yes, that is correct Ricardus, it is what I meant. With additional baggage of historical ideas about a Jewish homeland, and what that means religiously, prophetically and probably a few other ways. I tend to discount these other ways in my thinking now. And see the dire situation of Jewish people as compelling.
The Palestinians are often 2 dimensional characters in the analysis I'm exposed to. But then so are our local indigenous peoples, people from Latin America, much of Africa and Asia. Which implies racism is in there somewhere, pretty much always.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
anti-Palestinian racism.
Jews and Palestinians are not Tweedledum and Tweedledee.
Palestinians have never been the targets of genuine racism which manifested itself quite recently in a very serious project to exterminate them, and they are not faced now with terrorist groups and nations (one of which is acquiring nuclear capabilities) who sympathise with that attempted genocide.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
you're suggesting that the daily injustices that Palestinians put up with - including, for example, the confiscation of their land for "security purposes" which suddenly and miraculously becomes a settlement, the restriction of access to water, the dumping of raw sewage from an illegal settlement onto a neighbouring village field, the arbitrary hours of waiting at checkpoints for no apparent reason, the "administrative detention" of thousands of people for years in jail on no charge - doesn't happen. That's plainly a lie.
These things are well documented. And even ex commanders of the Israel Defence Force (of all people) are saying that they are counter-productive.
Reference for this would be interesting please.
Also not what I am saying at all. I am saying protective measures are necessary because of incidents such as
This one:
Another Major Terror Plot Exposed INN News Oct 20th
It has been cleared for publication that a terror ring that had been planning a mass terror attack at an event hall in southern Israel has been arrested. The ring had also been planning to capture and murder a soldier so as to use his body as a bargaining chip. A resident of Khan Yunis in Gaza, who was arrested last month for trying to pass into Israel, revealed upon investigation that he stood at the head of an Islamic Jihad-affiliated organization in the Gaza Strip that had planned to carry out a number of attacks. In addition, it was revealed that the man had been drafted by a senior operative of Islamic Jihad living in Gaza, who instructed him to set up a terror infrastructure for carrying out attacks. He did not hesitate, and drafted three more. One of them, a Gaza resident who had been residing in Israel illegally, was employed at the event hall for which the terror attack was planned. It was also revealed in the investigation that, for the purposes of preparing the attack, the terror group leader and employee of the hall undertook an initial check of the scene of the planned attack, according to which they were able to consolidate and ensure that a maximum number of people were murdered in the attack. In tandem they planned an attack whereby a soldier would be captured and murdered - and his body used as a bargaining chip. To this end, he received thousands of shekels to rent an Israeli apartment - to where the soldier would be lured and murdered - to bury his body in the area and to transfer his belongings to Gaza - for the purposes of bargaining with Israel
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think we are now on the fifth time of asking.
Awesome counting, Ricardus!
How about trying for double figures?
How about trying to answer the question in the link?
If you think I am going to collude in a discussion which trivialises the Holocaust by suggesting that Jews should not have subsequently sought a safe haven because anti-Semitic elements would attack it, you're dreaming.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
anti-Palestinian racism.
Jews and Palestinians are not Tweedledum and Tweedledee.
Palestinians have never been the targets of genuine racism which manifested itself quite recently in a very serious project to exterminate them, and they are not faced now with terrorist groups and nations (one of which is acquiring nuclear capabilities) who sympathise with that attempted genocide.
No, the nation the Palestinians are faced with that has sympathies with attempted genocide and has repeatedly practiced ethnic cleansing already has nuclear capabilities. Genocide isn't just the killing of people, it's the attempt to erase their cultural existence and history too (as Jamat has been attempting in this thread). The IDF is as much a terrorist group as Hamas and ultimately responsible for more death and destruction.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
If you think I am going to collude in a discussion which trivialises the Holocaust by suggesting that Jews should not have subsequently sought a safe haven because anti-Semitic elements would attack it, you're dreaming.
I think you just did ...
Stripped of accusations of bad faith, your argument, AIUI, is that no matter how bad the Palestinians make things, they are still not going to repeat the Shoah, whereas Europeans and Americans could if we wanted to, and therefore Jews are on balance safer in Israel.
I don't think this really follows because if we are allowed to imagine a hypothetical scenario in which Nazis return to power in the West, we can also imagine a hypothetical scenario in which the Arab world launches a devastating and successful total war against Israel. ISTM there is no possible world in which creating a new set of enemies for Israel by dispossessing the Palestinians makes Jews any safer.
[ 28. October 2016, 05:53: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
]If you think I am going to collude in a discussion which trivialises the Holocaust by suggesting that Jews should not have subsequently sought a safe haven because anti-Semitic elements would attack it, you're dreaming.
No one in this thread has trivialised the holocaust. Throwing up the holocaust whenever Israel's actions are criticised is difficult to classify as anything but a smokescreen.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No one in this thread has trivialised the holocaust. Throwing up the holocaust whenever Israel's actions are criticised is difficult to classify as anything but a smokescreen.
I think "smokescreen" is probably a poor choice of terminology in this context.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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