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Source: (consider it) Thread: UK General Election June 8th 2017
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The optics are a long, long way from Blair.

Sorry, I'm obviously missing something here. You're going to have to explain this to me.
John McDonnell, the man who'd like to be Chancellor, standing beneath a hammer and sickle flag.
And? So what?

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Jane R
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# 331

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You can do wonders with Photoshop these days.
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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The optics are a long, long way from Blair.

Sorry, I'm obviously missing something here. You're going to have to explain this to me.
John McDonnell, the man who'd like to be Chancellor, standing beneath a hammer and sickle flag.
And? So what?
Well, personally, I'd say that if one wants to present oneself as a potential senior cabinet minister who can reach out to and win the support of moderate voters, then going to an event where people parade symbols associated with tyranny, represssion and mass murder is a bit of a bad idea. But each to their own, I guess.
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Well, personally, I'd say that if one wants to present oneself as a potential senior cabinet minister who can reach out to and win the support of moderate voters, then going to an event where people parade symbols associated with tyranny, represssion and mass murder is a bit of a bad idea. But each to their own, I guess.

Riiight. Because every politician always is able to vet other people who turn up to public events. Oh wait.

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arse

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Well, personally, I'd say that if one wants to present oneself as a potential senior cabinet minister who can reach out to and win the support of moderate voters, then going to an event where people parade symbols associated with tyranny, represssion and mass murder is a bit of a bad idea. But each to their own, I guess.

Riiight. Because every politician always is able to vet other people who turn up to public events. Oh wait.
This isn't the first time that Corbyn or McDonnell have turned up to events where people have paraded extremist banners.
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Jane R
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mr cheesy:
quote:
Because every politician always is able to vet other people who turn up to public events. Oh wait.
Maybe not, but you can certainly control them once they're there.
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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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And, it isn't as though senior members of the Conservative Party haven't associated themselves with tyrannical, repressive and genocidal governments either.

But, I suppose we can be thankful that the Labour manifesto isn't copied from the Communist Party, unlike large parts of the Conservative manifesto lifted from the BNP.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
mr cheesy:
quote:
Because every politician always is able to vet other people who turn up to public events. Oh wait.
Maybe not, but you can certainly control them once they're there.
Are you saying locking journalists in a room was a good thing?

Ye gods.

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arse

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, I suppose we can be thankful that the Labour manifesto isn't copied from the Communist Party, unlike large parts of the Conservative manifesto lifted from the BNP.

They're going to renationalise the railways?!
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Jane R
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mr cheesy:
quote:
Are you saying locking journalists in a room was a good thing?

No, the exact opposite. Perhaps I should have added an emoticon to make my meaning clearer.

I think it's scary too. [Help]

[ 04. May 2017, 10:54: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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stonespring
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Well, personally, I'd say that if one wants to present oneself as a potential senior cabinet minister who can reach out to and win the support of moderate voters, then going to an event where people parade symbols associated with tyranny, represssion and mass murder is a bit of a bad idea. But each to their own, I guess.

Do you know the date of the photo?
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
This isn't the first time that Corbyn or McDonnell have turned up to events where people have paraded extremist banners.

Where does inviting a leader of a death squad to tea rank on your list of priorities?
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
mr cheesy:
quote:
Because every politician always is able to vet other people who turn up to public events. Oh wait.
Maybe not, but you can certainly control them once they're there.
That is not a good look.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Well, personally, I'd say that if one wants to present oneself as a potential senior cabinet minister who can reach out to and win the support of moderate voters, then going to an event where people parade symbols associated with tyranny, represssion and mass murder is a bit of a bad idea. But each to their own, I guess.

Do you know the date of the photo?
1 May 2017
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
You can do wonders with Photoshop these days.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-4xuGuXsAAAmZF.jpg

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
She's a black woman who messed up publicly.

...

But y'know, if you want to continue looking like a racist misogynist, keep spouting this line about it being lies

This is quite possibly the most ridiculous attempt to play the sex and race cards I have ever seen. LC has not even so much as hinted at the suggestion that either her sex or her race is relevant to the story, nor is there any reason to suppose that LC would treat differently any other politician who gave such a train wreck of an interview featuring such obviously incorrect claims.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
LC has not even so much as hinted at the suggestion that either her sex or her race is relevant to the story

Yes, I thought it was a reach, but then I thought LC's claim that she lied was also a reach (especially as she gave the correct information earlier in the week). It seemed to be a classic case of interviewee freeze, which doesn't remove media bias of course.
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
This is quite possibly the most ridiculous attempt to play the sex and race cards I have ever seen. LC has not even so much as hinted at the suggestion that either her sex or her race is relevant to the story, nor is there any reason to suppose that LC would treat differently any other politician who gave such a train wreck of an interview featuring such obviously incorrect claims.

Bullshit. If it was May who fluffed a tv interview or Boris who made some claims which had to be corrected, it'd blow over very quickly.

It isn't a "card", it's the truth. Black woman makes a mistake and everyone piles on. White Eton-educated man is permanently making mistakes, then somehow that's just part of his personality.

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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There is also another factor in play. Politicians to the right of centre have a much easier ride through the media than those to the left. And, at the moment anyone strongly associated with Jeremy Corbyn will have to adhere to very high standards or become an example in the media of the shambles that a Corbyn led government would be. Which, of course, ignores the shambles that government under both Cameron and May has been.

Which doesn't mean that gender and race aren't part of the mix.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

It isn't a "card", it's the truth. Black woman makes a mistake and everyone piles on. White Eton-educated man is permanently making mistakes, then somehow that's just part of his personality.

Or is May purely cynical, or did she really believe the 'haz cat can't be deported' story.
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It isn't a "card", it's the truth. Black woman makes a mistake and everyone piles on.

I'm not convinced. From years of watching the BBC "This Week", on which she was a regular commentator, I've long held the view that Abbott is - shall we say? - not the most able of politicians, and that the media wish to bring that out. Is it sexist or racist? I don't think so. Is it personal? Yes, it probably is.

[ 05. May 2017, 07:50: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Ricardus
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Diane Abbott does seem to be one of those people, like Gypsies and Travellers, whom it is considered socially acceptable to pick on. I'm thinking of incidents like Mr Davis' 'Specsavers' comments.

I don't think it's as simple as racism because she's hardly the only black MP. My suspicion is that when she first entered Parliament in the 80s, she was the epitome of the Women's Lib Greenham Common Free Mandela End Discrimination stereotype that it was socially acceptable to mock, and even though the things she campaigned for are now largely mainstream, the 'socially acceptable to mock' label has stuck to her.

Having said all that, I don't believe LC is racist and the fact that she gets unduly picked on doesn't mean she shouldn't be called out when she genuinely does something daft, as in the interview.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Helen-Eva
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Diane Abbott does come across as a bit self-righteous which can be annoying, and contribute to why people want to take her down a peg or two.

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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Bullshit. If it was May who fluffed a tv interview or Boris who made some claims which had to be corrected, it'd blow over very quickly.

Does anyone doubt that if Jeremy Corbyn had given the same interview as Diane Abbot he would have received the same media response, or even even a more scathing and widely published one? I certainly don't.

You can say the media is biased against Abbot because she's a Labour MP if you want, and I won't deny it. But saying it's due to sex or race won't cut it.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Does anyone doubt that if Jeremy Corbyn had given the same interview as Diane Abbot he would have received the same media response, or even even a more scathing and widely published one? I certainly don't.

You can say the media is biased against Abbot because she's a Labour MP if you want, and I won't deny it. But saying it's due to sex or race won't cut it.

Think whatever you like. Meanwhile keep turning the wheel that says this minor event is somehow showing something about the Labour party.

I despair of this country. People are literally voting in a party who is going to take things away from the masses.

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arse

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Sioni Sais
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I suppose they must count for something but in the local elections, for which turnout is a bit less than half that in a general election, the Tories have made big gains, partly at the expense of Labour but they appear to have wiped out UKIP, which has so far retained exactly none of the seats it previously held (0/64 and counting).

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I suppose they must count for something but in the local elections, for which turnout is a bit less than half that in a general election, the Tories have made big gains, partly at the expense of Labour but they appear to have wiped out UKIP, which has so far retained exactly none of the seats it previously held (0/64 and counting).

The opposition generally fares better in local elections, held shortly before a General Election, than it does in the General Election. So if that pattern holds true Mrs May will have the sort of majority that makes Mrs Thatcher and Mr Blair look like footling amateurs.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Martin60
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Anglican't, keep up the good work, you are giving value for money better than the Spectator and Private Eye combined.

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Love wins

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I despair of this country. People are literally voting in a party who is going to take things away from the masses.

Yes but you seem to be oblivious to what is needed to restore proper democratic balance to British politics. The first thing is that Labour needs to ditch the dick at the top and all his foul entourage. Especially the likes of McDonnell. Next it needs to vote in an electable leader. Not another bell end like Owen Smith, but someone like Chuka Umunna, Sir Keir Starmer or Yvette Cooper. The new leader needs to expel Momentum like Neil Kninnock did with Militant Tendency in the 1980's. Labour may be the largest political party in Western Europe with 600,000 members, but while it can get the endorsement of the Communist Party, it can't of the British electorate at large.

I believe that the British people are naturally socialist, centrist and conservative, small letters intended. A centre left party would be the natural party of government. Labour won three elections, and only when Gordon Brown was unfairly blamed for an international financial crisis did they lose power. And not to the Tories, but to a hung parliament in which Cameron and Clegg forged their unholy alliance. Canvassers up and down the country are getting the same message, which I agree with. We will never vote Labour under its present leadership.

I think the Labour Party should change the way it elects its leaders. When David and Ed Miliband squared off against each other, David among the parliamentary and constituency parties. Red Ed won with the leftie Union vote. That should be done away with. It was the changes Ed himself made that have sent Labour and the country into the tailspin it's now in. Labour should have learned the lessons of the 1980's and not repeated the same mistakes. The lesson is simple. If the party is run by a regime acceptable to the Communist Party, it's unlikely to be acceptable to British voters.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Yes but

There is no yes but. You're either a thieving Tory, a deluded part of the 75% who will benefit nothing at all from a Tory government or some other kind of lame-arsed idiot who is into voting against his own interests.

Which is it?

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arse

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by mr.cheesy:
There is no yes but. You're either a thieving Tory, a deluded part of the 75% who will benefit nothing at all from a Tory government or some other kind of lame-arsed idiot who is into voting against his own interests.

Nothing is worth risking putting Corbyn in Downing Street.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Nothing is worth risking putting Corbyn in Downing Street.

Yeah, that's the spirit! This kind of reasoning will elect Le Pen

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arse

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yeah, that's the spirit! This kind of reasoning will elect Le Pen

We don'y have a Le Pen here. Neither do we have a Macron, who is a centre left politician of the type Labour should be putting up.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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mr cheesy
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If you don't think the Tories are turning into UKIP and on a journey to Le Pen then you're even more deluded than I thought.

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arse

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If you don't think the Tories are turning into UKIP and on a journey to Le Pen then you're even more deluded than I thought.

The Tories are turning into Republicans. UKIP is still further down the same road.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Rocinante
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The Tories absorbed the right-leaning Lib Dem voters in 2015, and now they've managed to absorb the UKIP voters as well. This coalition is inherently very unstable; sometime during the next five years May will have to say or do something to piss off one or both of these groups.

Also, after five more years of "fuck the poor" policies, many people will realise that they really are better off under a moderate Labour government than a right-wing Tory one - this lesson has to be re-learned every 20 years or so. Whether Labour will be there for them when they come to this realisation is another matter.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Nothing is worth risking putting Corbyn in Downing Street.

At this point Corbyn isn't going to win anyway, and there is a large amount of value in not giving May too much of a majority.

The argument that if she has a large majority she can face down the hard-Brexiters doesn't really wash [she's going to use a large mandate as an excuse to ignore people, really?].

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:

Also, after five more years of "fuck the poor" policies, many people will realise that they really are better off under a moderate Labour government than a right-wing Tory one - this lesson has to be re-learned every 20 years or so. Whether Labour will be there for them when they come to this realisation is another matter.

You have the whole thing in a nutshell.

Depressing.

I'm one of the 'idle and relatively well off' but I find the world's rush to the right wing thoroughly depressing. Does no-one care anymore?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
The Tories absorbed the right-leaning Lib Dem voters in 2015, and now they've managed to absorb the UKIP voters as well. This coalition is inherently very unstable; sometime during the next five years May will have to say or do something to piss off one or both of these groups.

Also, after five more years of "fuck the poor" policies, many people will realise that they really are better off under a moderate Labour government than a right-wing Tory one - this lesson has to be re-learned every 20 years or so. Whether Labour will be there for them when they come to this realisation is another matter.

Good analysis. May has undoubtedly hit the sweet spot this time, bringing together former Lib Dem voters and UKIP voters, and Labour voters. I suppose Brexit has been part of this, and again, May has been clever getting the election in, before any Brexit shit-hits-the-fan.

I feel sorry for the poor and the disabled, and also the sick. Also angry at Labour, who have malfunctioned badly. But then most parties do after a long period in power, sort of nervous breakdown.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Anglican't, keep up the good work, you are giving value for money better than the Spectator and Private Eye combined.

Thank you (I think...?)
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Rocinante
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# 18541

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The trouble on the left started brewing during the Blair years; many working-class Labour voters wanted most of all to get back to the days of "proper jobs" in proper, manufacturing industry. Blair and Brown bought them off with tax credits and extra money for schools & hospitals, but in practice promoted a low-skill, low-wage service economy that acted as a magnet for immigration. The result is that unscrupulous right-wing politicians have been able to get these peoples' votes by promising hard Brexit and immigration controls, as if the immigrants were the cause of low wages rather than vice-versa.

It's all nonsense, of course; we can't stop immigration or our economy and public services will collapse, but that's a problem for the next election. It will do just fine as a strategy for this one.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yeah, that's the spirit! This kind of reasoning will elect Le Pen

We don'y have a Le Pen here. Neither do we have a Macron, who is a centre left politician of the type Labour should be putting up.
Yes, the Left should only be allowed a leader that the Right have approved.

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Forward the New Republic

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
The trouble on the left started brewing during the Blair years; many working-class Labour voters wanted most of all to get back to the days of "proper jobs" in proper, manufacturing industry. Blair and Brown bought them off with tax credits and extra money for schools & hospitals, but in practice promoted a low-skill, low-wage service economy that acted as a magnet for immigration. The result is that unscrupulous right-wing politicians have been able to get these peoples' votes by promising hard Brexit and immigration controls, as if the immigrants were the cause of low wages rather than vice-versa.

It's all nonsense, of course; we can't stop immigration or our economy and public services will collapse, but that's a problem for the next election. It will do just fine as a strategy for this one.

Or you could argue that Blair and Brown went down the path of neo-liberalism, and this led to stuff like PFI and privatization. Of course, part of Labour reacted to this, calling it Tory-lite.

I don't really know the next step. Do we get another right-wing Labour leader who is devoted to neo-liberalism? This is the Macron position, I think, and probably it will enrage more people eventually.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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lilBuddha
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The world has never actually worked in the way it does in the Ye Olde Days fantasies. Even if it had, it couldn't now. The problem is that people think it did, so politicians gain a lot of traction pretending they want to go back.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The world has never actually worked in the way it does in the Ye Olde Days fantasies. Even if it had, it couldn't now. The problem is that people think it did, so politicians gain a lot of traction pretending they want to go back.

It seems very strong in England, but I suppose also in the US. The irony is that conservative politics (as in Tory and Labour), don't actually conserve at all; they tend to smash everything up. But then there is the fantasy that you can escape via protectionism. This often leads to trade war and real war.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Nothing is worth risking putting Corbyn in Downing Street.

Rather Corbyn than May. I haven't seen a scrap of evidence that May is more competent than Corbyn. This is the woman who appointed Boris '350 million for the NHS' Johnson to Foreign Secretary.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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lilBuddha
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You think May is incompetent? Are you speaking of Theresa "We didn't actually want Brexit because we knew it would be bad, but now that we have it let's double down and make it worse" May, Theresa "We've the lesser amount of power in these negotiations, so let's piss of those who do because this will make it better" May?
You think she is incompetent?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Yes, the Left should only be allowed a leader that the Right have approved.

No quite, but surely they should put up a candidate who has some hope of getting elected!

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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quetzalcoatl
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Surely, Mrs May's appeal is partly because of her mediocrity and dimness. The English don't want dazzling intellects, or moral leaders.

If you happen to be very bright, as Wilson was, you have to conceal it, and hide behind a mask of middle-class sobriety. But May fits the bill, vicar's daughter, endless bumbling, sound bites straight off the match box, U-turns by the gallon. We looked in the mirror and saw our image.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9668 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Jay-Emm
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Anyone had a look at the distribution (big picture, failed to win Ukip votes and failed to get turnout out).

I'm getting the impression there's delusion* and culpability on both wings on the labour party (not to mention that the Tories are good at exploiting the country for it's benefit-e.g. the double election at public expense to successfully dull turnout, but that's their job).

*note the papers haven't exactly been supporting the center right these last 7 years (except against the left/center). I don't think that will be the magic bullet they think. And the message of last years coup timing was actively damaging (and talks of purging, don't help).
While the left of course, can't do it alone.

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