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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: UK General Election June 8th 2017
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Yes, the problem was unsustainable lending - but in the US. This wouldn't have been a problem if banks hadn't invested in the securities createdon the basis of that lending. I note that the article points the finger not only at American banks but European ones as well.
I'm not pretending to be a economist, but my understanding of the problems with Northern Rock were to a large degree due to bad mortage lending in the UK. But I'm sure the subprime mortgages in the USA were a significant part of the problem too.
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arse
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not pretending to be a economist, but my understanding of the problems with Northern Rock were to a large degree due to bad mortage lending in the UK.
Northern Rock had a business model where they borrowed on the overnight markets (at low rates) to lend for 30 years (and then securitised those mortgages and sold them on). Short term inter-bank loans dried up, and everyone tried to get out of mortgage securities at once (people sold other securities to cover the losses in their US portfolios). The combination of both these things killed their business model (which was criminally over optimistic to start with).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Actually I think the problems with the banks were largely due to unsustainable mortgage lending, which was itself caused by prudent economic management by Brown (so the true risks of lending to self-employed people who signed off their own books wasn't considered) and a massively overheating housing market.
Here's what the Economist has to say about it.
Here's what an actual economist* thinks...
History will be very kind to Brown and Darling. Their response to the crisis was brave and precisely what the country and world needed.
More to the point, Osborne's record is just dreadful (see here for details). And the Tories have made clear that they will follow the same insane** policies in a situation made worse by Brexit.
Even if I didn't agree with Corbyn*** on policy (most of his policies I agree with and the idea that he is hard-left is just stupid, especially when we are being governed by a hard-right party at the moment. Overton window anyone?), the incompetence and immorality of the current Conservative government makes voting for Labour (or another party than can win where you live) the obvious choice.
AFZ
*Most 'economists' interviewed on TV and radio are not academics who study the subject they are spokespeople for the City
**The description of the Conservative Party's economic policy as 'insane' was by that well-known leftie Martin Wolf (Economics Editor of the FT)
***I have been disappointed by his leadership and lack of ability to cut through but if you look at the policies themselves they are hugely popular. (recent research showed that newspapers only report Labour policies accurately 19% of the time, 0% for the Mail and Express
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Besides, there's another test. Exactly what have the Tories done since then to reduce the chances of another crisis? They quietly shelved an FCA inquiry and largely ignored the findings of the commission on banking regulation.
Off the top of my head: implementation of the Basel III Accords, ring-fencing (to be completed by January 2019), and forcing mortgage lenders to take lifestyle factors into account.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Even if I didn't agree with Corbyn*** on policy
...
recent research showed that newspapers only report Labour policies accurately 19% of the time
Of course, Labour policy and what Corbyn says when speaking to the media can often be two completely different things...
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Off the top of my head: implementation of the Basel III Accords, ring-fencing (to be completed by January 2019), and forcing mortgage lenders to take lifestyle factors into account.
Something called Basel III was going to be implemented anyway - the only bun-fight was over what was going to be inside it (the capital ratios mandated by Basel III are marginally under that of Lehman before it's collapse). The 'lifestyle-factors' tinkers at the very margins - most of the unwise lending would have happened regardless. Ring fencing doesn't deal with opacity or leverage which were the two big problems during the financial crisis, it gives an illusion of safety at best.
[ 30. April 2017, 18:16: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Not sure (genuinely) about ring-fencing. ISTM that in a well-functioning market the regulator should not be in a better position than the bank or its auditors to judge risks to the bank's own balance sheet, and the reason this did not happen in the past is that the lack of ring-fencing, and the silly bonus structures, gave the banks and their employees perverse incentives not to care. IOW, ring-fencing is supposed to force the banks to put their own houses in order regarding exotic products and silly degrees of leverage.
Anyway, I have every confidence that Mr Brown or Mr Miliband would have done the same or better than the Tories with regard to bank regulation. I have much less confidence in Mr Corbyn, because I don't trust him to understand the issues involved*, and nor do I trust (for reasons already stated) his capacity to work with people who do understand the issues.
* As an example of Mr Corbyn's ignorance on economic matters: just after the Brexit vote it was widely reported that the fall in the value of the pound had caused the economy to slump from the fifth to the sixth largest economy in the world. That is in fact Not How It Works and the WEF still has the UK at fifth, but that did not prevent Mr Corbyn repeating in his big speech that Britain was the sixth largest.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
but that did not prevent Mr Corbyn repeating in his big speech that Britain was the sixth largest.
Or the former tory trade minister (in the BBC article you mention).
The BBC article also pretty much says that is how it works, but that the readings are not taken yet. That's like saying Leicester haven't dropped any places because the seasons not finished. Or perhaps Tennis rankings would be a better analogy.
The IMF predict us (still/back) ahead of France for 2017 anyhow, with them having 0.2 growth in Dollars, and us having 13% loss in dollars from 2015 but I'm not sure how they do that.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Not sure (genuinely) about ring-fencing. ISTM that in a well-functioning market the regulator should not be in a better position than the bank or its auditors to judge risks to the bank's own balance sheet, and the reason this did not happen in the past is that the lack of ring-fencing, and the silly bonus structures, gave the banks and their employees perverse incentives not to care.
I'm not sure ring fencing things into 'bad' and 'good' components really helps - risk can still build up, and of course last time the immediate cause of the crisis was the failure of two banks which were effectively ring fenced (Bear and Lehmans).
By default everything dodgy will be thrown into the 'bad bank' side, and while the travails of retail customers was given as the reason last time for rescuing the banks, in the case of another systemic collapse all bets are off anyway.
Which is why the only thing helps is more transparency etc.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
Meanwhile, Diane Abbott reveals a mastery of numbers almost as strong as Donald Trump's.
(20 years ago, we had a Labour government elected with a massive landslide. Now we have people like Ms Abbott at the very top of the party. Well done, Jeremy!)
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
(20 years ago, we had a Labour government elected with a massive landslide. Now we have people like Ms Abbott at the very top of the party. Well done, Jeremy!)
Meanwhile, Boris Johnson, Amber Rudd, Liam Fox, David Davis, and Jeremy 'rhyming slang' Hunt all get a free pass.
I'd rather have Kier Starmer sitting across from Junker than a combination of Johnson and Davis. I mean, ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
Meanwhile, Diane Abbott reveals a mastery of numbers almost as strong as Donald Trump's.
I'd rather someone who couldn't remember the numbers at an interview whose underlying policy actually worked than vice versa.
That said, Abbott's an experienced politician. She should have made sure she could reel out the right numbers backwards.
Meanwhile May, having distracted herself from the EU negotiations by calling an unnecessary election, is picking an unnecessary fight with Juncker.
[ 02. May 2017, 21:04: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I'd rather someone who couldn't remember the numbers at an interview whose underlying policy actually worked than vice versa.
That said, Abbott's an experienced politician. She should have made sure she could reel out the right numbers backwards.
Is it true she'd got the numbers right at a few interviews immediately before. I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse.
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
I despise Diane Abbott and her leader's brand of socialism. But she did nothing wrong in fluffing a few numbers. She'd given seven interviews that morning and may have been brain fatigued. Her mistake is an irrelevant storm in a teacup.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I despise Diane Abbott and her leader's brand of socialism. But she did nothing wrong in fluffing a few numbers.
Rule #1: Don't make shit up. She may well have forgotten the numbers, and also forgotten to bring any notes with her in case she did forget the numbers. In which case, say that you concluded that the numbers were very affordable, apologize for not having the figures to hand, promise to follow up with the correct figures after the interview, and then do so.
She made those numbers up. She lied.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think you will find that is rule #2
Rule #1 is Don't tell lies. Like "We could give 350M a week to the NHS".
Storm in a teacup. A distraction from the fact that Mrs May is avoiding all discussion because she would fluff more than a few numbers.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
She made those numbers up. She lied.
I don't think she did actually. I think what happened was that she experienced some stress earlier in the interview when the interviewer stopped her mid sentence (when he pointed out - pedantically - that the policy was to increase the number of both policemen and women) and this was enough to knock her off.
I don't think there is evidence that she was making up numbers, it seems to me that the most likely scenario is that these are all numbers that are associated with the project but that in the moment she couldn't quite grasp the right one to answer the question.
Yes, it shows a lack of experience. Yes, in retrospect I'm sure she's thinking that she should have done a whole lot better in getting the correct message out.
But to say that she's lying.. well, that's a bit extreme.
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arse
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Meanwhile, Roger Mullin (previously an SNP MP as of yesterday) has written to the electoral commission regarding £5m of donations to the Conservative Party from HSBC, funnelled through a failing company owned by the party treasurer.
Hopefully this has legs, and the mainstream media will pick it up. I know Robert Peston (ITV) has seen it, because he retweeted it last night, and people have been furiously tagging the BBC on it.
(Letter here)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Labour should be going hard on 7 years' austerity, a crumbling NHS, cuts to education, cuts to most things, but I fear that it's too late. Brexit seems to have mesmerized people, and Mrs U-turn is managing to hide away in various secret village halls. I'm not sure how depressing it is. Quite a lot.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I'm strangely hopeful of a surprise in this election. Maybe many more young people will vote this time?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I despise Diane Abbott and her leader's brand of socialism.
What's there to despise? It's mostly about making sure people aren't shafted so much.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I despise Diane Abbott and her leader's brand of socialism.
What's there to despise? It's mostly about making sure people aren't shafted so much.
Plenty of people are content to see the poor and the disabled shafted, as long as they keep their 4x4s and their holiday in Tuscany, or whatever their equivalent is. Keep taxes low, and squeeze the poor - it's a winner.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I'm strangely hopeful of a surprise in this election. Maybe many more young people will vote this time?
I'm not sure about young people, but there is some evidence in recent polling that the Don't Knows are breaking for Labour rather than LibDem.
In a way, the Tories are disadvantaged by starting the campaign with such huge leads - it was highly unlikely that they would increase them, and therefore the momentum is with Labour. (The Momentum is, too...) There must be a substantial group of voters who don't think much of Corbyn, but don't want a Tory super-landslide either. As long as Labour are 10-20 points behind, they can vote Labour without worrying about handing Corbyn the keys to No.10. If Labour start to make serious headway in the polls, these voters may act like negative feedback and pull them down again.
Having said that, I'm still not convinced that the pollsters have driven the "shy Tory" problem out of their data, so the Tory lead may be even higher. I think the only likely surprise at this election will be a Tory majority of "only" 100 or so. The SNP lock on Scotland, the concentration of Labour's core vote and tactical voting should prevent them from beating Blair.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
The SNP lock on Scotland
Which I'm not convinced will hold this time around. For a start, with 56 seats and 50% vote share in 2015 there's almost now way to go up. And, they're going to be hit by the "not another referendum now" factor - though whether they will go Tory (who are also suffering from the "not another election" factor) or Lab and LibDem who knows? The Tories in Scotland are riding a wave at the moment, with a succesful election in 2016 - on the other hand they are working from a low point, and I don't think Mrs May turning up to a hut in the woods creates an impression that Scotland is all that important. There is a concerted campaign to oust our Tory MP this time round, hopefully that will succeed and there won't be any other Tories sneaking in elsewhere. The LibDem seat in the northern isles is very weak (the scandal of the 2015 campaign is still very fresh), but they may recover lost seats elsewhere. And, Labour could pull back a bit of lost ground.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
The Tories may gain an odd seat in Scotland, but if the SNP lose any it'll most likely be to Labour. The Tories may gain 10-12 in Wales, but they may lose 10-12 to the lib Dems in England. Therefore it's all down to how many they can take off Labour in London and the Midlands.
The lack of a Lib Dem resurgence might indicate there will be a substantial tactical vote for Labour, which will limit this.
The only argument is over how Labour will lose; at the moment my feeling is "badly" rather than "catastrophically", but even that might be hopelessly optimistic.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I was thinking badly. To quote Slipknot, all hope is gone.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But to say that she's lying.. well, that's a bit extreme.
Perhaps - but then, I do tend to be a bit extreme about accuracy, because it matters. You can imagine I'm having rather a hard time with the current US administration.
You can't have a sensible discussion with random idiots wandering around poisoning the data.
And if she can't quite grasp the right number, and can't grasp that a cost of £300,000 - or even £80m - isn't enough to pay for 10,000 police officers phased in over four years, then she has no business being in charge of anything.
And "lack of experience"? Mrs. Abbott is 63. She's been an MP for the last 30 years, and was a candidate for Labour leader in 2010. How much experience do you think she needs?
(Recruiting 1/4 each year means you pay for 25,000 cop-years over 4 years. Her higher figure means she'd be paying each cop £3,200 pa: she's still a factor of 10 or more low. If she intended the £80m to be an average annual cost in the turn-on phase, she's still only paying each cop £12,800 pa (and this needs to be the total cost with overheads, taxes, overtime etc., not the cop's basic salary. It's still low by a factor of probably 3 or 4.)
(£350 million a week is also a lie. It's two different kinds of lies: the mythical figures lie that I'm concerned about here (the numbers are wrong - the net direct cost of the UK being in the EU is closer to a third of that) and also a political lie (suggesting that this extra money would be spent on the NHS)).
[ 03. May 2017, 15:10: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Look, I'm not thick, I can obviously appreciate that some of the numbers she mentioned were not answers to the question.
But saying that she's lying goes beyond her being so flustered that she can't focus on the numbers on her bit of paper and into the whole realms of fakery. She wasn't trying to fake anything, she just had a meltdown.
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arse
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, a mistake isn't a lie.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I don't see anything in the incident on which to question her honesty. Nothing suggests she deliberately set out to deceive, there was no assertion that it was the right number, no sticking to her guns when questioned over it etc.
One could, if one liked, question her competence, in particular her competence at dealing with questions from the media.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Clever by May to attack the EU. The Brexit faithful will rally behind this, snotty little wogs, who do they think they are? Bugger the country, as long as the Tories win.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I despise Diane Abbott and her leader's brand of socialism.
What's there to despise? It's mostly about making sure people aren't shafted so much.
The small but telling problem with the Corbyn/ McDonnell/ Abbot approach is that it tends not to win elections. You can't do a huge amount to stop people being shafted if you end up with the sort of representation in Parliament that puts you somewhere between Michael Foot and George Lansbury.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I'm strangely hopeful of a surprise in this election. Maybe many more young people will vote this time?
Many young people did not vote in the Referendum for one reason or another. They may be motivated to come out and try and reverse what the oldies have done to their future.
The E.U Commission are doing their bit by coming out with the 'Woe unto you Blighty' and threats of a 100 billion divorce bill.
The Circus goes on. A surprise result would be nice, not looking likely at present with the only real contender in seeming disarray and rock bottom moral
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The E.U Commission are doing their bit by coming out with the 'Woe unto you Blighty' and threats of a 100 billion divorce bill.
I think you mean the Financial Times, and unless I've not been watching, the two institutions are separate.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Er yes, probably. Most of my misinformation comes from a radio in the workshop with hourly bulletins. I often think how large swaths of voters are influenced by this little dripfeed in the ear hole on a daily basis.
'Moral' was supposed to read 'morale'. Far be it to for me to suggest that anyone running in politics has rock bottom morals.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's an interesting example of how these things work. The FT first did the calculation of 60 billion euros, and reputable journalists (mostly) published stories on this with the added phrase, 'as calculated by FT'. However, the tabloids, always eager for anti-EU stuff, tended to write, 'EU hikes bill to 100 billion, vote Tory'. No, I made that last bit up.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
The Institute for Fiscal Studies reckons that Tax Rises and Spending Cuts of another £15 Billion are needed for the UK to stop borrowing any more money by the year 2022. The Taxes introduced over the last 5 years now makes the Tax to GDP Ratio one of the highest in the Country's History. The Country is still deep in the Mire. (Basically Gordon Brown's fault but Mr Cameron did say at the time he would match Gordon's spending pledges £ for £ so he's part of the problem as well.) With major Firms relocating to Dublin to avoid paying UK Tax, Governments have got to keep them sweet by cutting their taxes.
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I'd be interested to see a citation for that claim, Garden Hermit, as this:
https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-kingdom.pdf
seems to suggest that tax to GDP ratio is pretty low compared to recent history and well below the OECD average.
Blaming Brown for the mess is frankly nonsense, as had the tories not smothered the recovery we'd be well on the way to a decreasing debt to GDP ratio by now.
[ 03. May 2017, 18:44: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But saying that she's lying goes beyond her being so flustered that she can't focus on the numbers on her bit of paper and into the whole realms of fakery. She wasn't trying to fake anything, she just had a meltdown.
She got flustered and couldn't find the right numbers. OK. Obviously it's a bad thing for an experienced politician to get flustered by a radio interview, but it's not a culpable error.
But then she started spouting stupid numbers. She asserted as truth things that she did not know to be truth. That's lying. Any statement other than "I'm sorry, I can't find the exact figures right now, but the consequences were..." is a lie.
A lie caused by stupidity is less immoral than a lie caused by maliciousness, but it has the same effect.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
She got flustered and couldn't find the right numbers. OK. Obviously it's a bad thing for an experienced politician to get flustered by a radio interview, but it's not a culpable error.
Some politicians can put an end to tourism and get away with it.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'd rather have Kier Starmer sitting across from Junker than a combination of Johnson and Davis.
I'm not sure I'd disagree with that, actually. Keir Starmer is one of the very few heavyweight front-line politicians that Labour have.
quote:
Meanwhile, Boris Johnson, Amber Rudd, Liam Fox, David Davis, and Jeremy 'rhyming slang' Hunt all get a free pass
That's the thing. I completely get that Abbott, Corbyn, McDonnell and the rest have a genuine passion for helping the disadvantaged in our society. But by positioning Labour some distance from the centre of British political opinion, and heavily seasoning with incompetence, they make the party unelectable.
This gives the Tories a free pass to do what they like. The end result is that the very people they want to help end up being hurt.
If “we forget why it’s worth having a Labour government, we end up not having one”. (David Milliband)
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
But by positioning Labour some distance from the centre of British political opinion, and heavily seasoning with incompetence, they make the party unelectable.
I'm struggling to see that Labour have moved. I know the press, and LibDems and the Tories, are all telling me that's the case, very loudly and very often, but the actual policies they're promoting? Not so much.
I mean, if you want some genuinely radical left-wing policies that'd be guaranteed to scare the horses, I can probably come up with some. But Labour are still firmly in the European Social Democrat camp, and not at all far from the centre.
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Forward the New Republic
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm struggling to see that Labour have moved. I know the press, and LibDems and the Tories, are all telling me that's the case, very loudly and very often, but the actual policies they're promoting? Not so much.
I'd agree. It's not just the usual suspects though; it's also the Labour leadership who are trying to put clear blue water between themselves and Blair. Even if they're not that far from Blair.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm struggling to see that Labour have moved. I know the press, and LibDems and the Tories, are all telling me that's the case, very loudly and very often, but the actual policies they're promoting? Not so much.
I'd agree. It's not just the usual suspects though; it's also the Labour leadership who are trying to put clear blue water between themselves and Blair. Even if they're not that far from Blair.
The optics are a long, long way from Blair.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
She got flustered and couldn't find the right numbers. OK. Obviously it's a bad thing for an experienced politician to get flustered by a radio interview, but it's not a culpable error.
Some politicians can put an end to tourism and get away with it.
Exactly. One mistake is laughed off, the other is scrutinised beyond belief.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Any statement other than "I'm sorry, I can't find the exact figures right now, but the consequences were..." is a lie.
A lie caused by stupidity is less immoral than a lie caused by maliciousness, but it has the same effect.
Leave it, can't you? She's a black woman who messed up publicly. No harm was done and the numbers were almost instantly corrected.
That's a long long way from actual lies put on buses which drove around the country and may have influenced a significant number of voters during the referendum.
But y'know, if you want to continue looking like a racist misogynist, keep spouting this line about it being lies and then watch as the Tory-UKIP machine set about dismantling the western liberal state in association with Trump and President Le Penn.
You are welcome.
[ 04. May 2017, 07:10: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
And, just on the subject of statements about money, Diane Abbott makes a mistake about money for the police and it's top news whereas someone like Boris had a relatively free ride in a bus displaying a blatant lie about money for the NHS.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The optics are a long, long way from Blair.
Sorry, I'm obviously missing something here. You're going to have to explain this to me.
John McDonnell, the man who'd like to be Chancellor, standing beneath a hammer and sickle flag.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The optics are a long, long way from Blair.
Sorry, I'm obviously missing something here. You're going to have to explain this to me.
John McDonnell, the man who'd like to be Chancellor, standing beneath a hammer and sickle flag.
Oh, you mean John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, speaking at a public meeting which other members of the public also get to attend.
How unlike our own Mrs May, whose every move is choreographed and all her backdrops tightly controlled by her crack team of SPADs. Heaven forfend she should ever be allowed out into the wild to show us just how strong and stable she is.
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Forward the New Republic
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