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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fuck the Amerixan injustice system
Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The judge also received a boatload of pleading letters from friends, family and influential persons.

I am not sure what those letters were. Were they character references handed up in open court, having first been shown to the prosecutor? That is a standard procedure in any sentencing hearing.

As to sentence, that varies here from state to state. NSW sentences seem to be heavier than those in Tasmania for example for what seem comparable offences. Nothing wrong with that as we are then talking of different communities. What matters more is consistency within a jurisdiction. I do not know what he was charged with nor the maximum sentence there for that offence. Were he to have been charged here, the maximum for sexual assault is presently 14 years. (There is no longer a crime of rape by that name- the definition of sexual assault covers it and a whole range of other activity.)

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I am not sure what those letters were. Were they character references handed up in open court, having first been shown to the prosecutor? That is a standard procedure in any sentencing hearing.

Help me with these character references. Say I have two rapists of similar ages, and the circumstances surrounding the rapes are similar.

One rapist is a high school dropout with a couple of shoplifting convictions and a generally insecure life. The other rapist is a college sports star, gets good grades at a decent college, and has a life history full of helping little old ladies across roads and raising money for charity.

Should their punishments be different? It seems to me that the answer is no, because none of this character evidence has anything to do with sexual misbehaviour. I have no reason to believe that the low-grade criminal is any more likely to attack other women than the choirboy.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I wonder if it is also because he is not only white, with friends, but pretty.

And people can't believe he would find it so difficult to get a girl to sleep with that he had to rape her.

Just to clarify: the "people"-- i.e. jury-- found him guilty. So there was no problem with people in general believing that he committed rape (the evidence seems pretty conclusive). It was the judge who seems to have trouble grasping the concept-- hence the recall petition circling the web. Those pushing the petition are suggesting it's because Brock has similar background to the judge-- white, male, star athlete at a prestigious college. We can't really know for sure, but it definitely is out of line with the norm-- and that's a problem. The only explanation the judge seemed willing to offer was along the lines of "he has such a promising future".

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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We Americans are benefiting from this helpful video provided by our friends cross-pond.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think three to four seems about right, too.

Due to the whims of the media, this case has received so much more attention than so many, similar and worse, crimes. The perpetrator will be on the receiving end of the sort of hatred usually reserved for pedophiles and no one will soon forget.

Please help me understand. A man who forces himself onto an unconscious woman should not be publicised or called out because there are worse crimes we should be talking about..?
quote:


I didn't say he shouldn't be talked about, but that he has been to a much greater degree than usual. That adds a little something to the overall punishment he is experiencing.

[quote]FFS. I don't suppose anyone really gives a shit how long he is in prison, the real pain that the victim expresses is that everyone - the guy, his father even the fucking judge in the trial - seems to be conspiring to downplay the fact that he's interfered with an unconscious person because, y'know, he's just a jock.


You seem to forget that he was judged guilty of the crime, will be on a registered sex offender list for the rest of his life, and will do time in jail. The amount of time may not matter to you, but I know that first offenders sometimes only end up serving a few years for murder. I think what he did was wrong but not as wrong as murder.

quote:
If he goes to prison for 3 years and comes out with the same attitude - thinking that society has done him something wrong and that he should be able to turn his life around with a book deal and a nice city job - then nothing has changed, has it?

Do you apply that logic to all criminals. No matter what the crime you think they should get life in prison unless they can prove some sort of sweeping change? Criminals are required to serve their sentence, not change the world or manage to turn back time and undo what they have done. Why shouldn't he be allowed to try to turn his life around? That's part of the work of repentance.


quote:
He committed a crime. He assaulted a defenseless woman, so he should be given a sentence that is on the scale for similar crimes. What I don't think is that he should be held responsible for his father's idiotic, inflammatory letter, or on the other hand be punished more harshly due to the particularly eloquent letter of his victim and the talent of the professional newscaster who read it to the world.
quote:
I'm sorry, that doesn't even seem to vaguely relate to the truth. At present he has a punishment which is the absolute minimum that he could be given - and the judge said specifically (IIRC) that was partly due to the representation by the father.
So what doesn't "relate to the truth?" I said what I thought the sentence should be and what I would consider or not take into account if I were the judge. Of course what I would do is not the same as what the actual judge did. I think he was way off base. Too light a sentence for starters and I don't think the kid's athletic ability should matter one iota. I've already said I thought the father's letter was idiotic. In short, I don't think you read my post very well before arguing with it.

P.S. I also think your habit of starting sentences with the false "Help me understand" and "I'm sorry," is obnoxious. You don't want to understand and you're not sorry so don't say it.

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
We Americans are benefiting from this helpful video provided by our friends cross-pond.

Brilliant!
[Overused]

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
He also shouldn't receive a sentence that is a fraction of what other young men who differ only in their skin color have rec'd for the exact same crime.


Exact same crime? Honestly, I never heard of this exact crime before. Man finds unconscious woman and lies on her and fingers her. No penis penetration, no weapons, no hitting. I'm not saying it's better or worse than the typical, 'stranger forces woman at gun/knife point rape,' but surely it's different and you can't actually point to scores of examples of young black men doing the "exact same thing" and getting a harsher punishment can you?

The only similar thing I can think of is the Bill Cosby rapes and he deliberately lured women to his apartment, purposely drugged them to make them unconscious, and he did it to many, many women over the years. And so far hasn't been punished at all.

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Soror Magna
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The statute says MINIMUM 2 years. That means the "mildest" of assaults should get 2 years. Even if one takes the view that Entitled White Boy deserves a break for being a clever swimbot, or because he was homesick and drunk, he still should have gotten AT LEAST 2 years. Instead, he got 6 months. Judge Asshole Pricksky was known for handing out severe sentences, and yet this particular sentence was way out of line with his own standards. And the judge went to Stanford too.

If they're going to play their college boy games in the court of law, then they deserve to have the court of public opinion chew both of them up and shit them out, along with creepazoid "20 minutes of action" Dad. This is old-white-boy privilege at its most blatant and vicious. What the fuck does Bill Cosby have to do with it?

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Yeah. Let's send his junk to jail for 6 years. He can stay with it or leave without it after 6 months as he so chooses.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

Due to the whims of the media, this case has received so much more attention than so many, similar and worse, crimes.

I do not think it is a whim. It is because he received a less-than-minimum sentence and it appears he did so because he is a rich, white boy And the judge is an alumnus of the very same uni the little shit attends.

He raped, not assaulted, raped* a woman.
He showed no remorse except for what it might do to his Olympic hopes.
Why do you feel he should receive a light sentence?


*Yes, I know that technically California law calls it sexual assault, but it is rape.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

You seem to forget that he was judged guilty of the crime, will be on a registered sex offender list for the rest of his life, and will do time in jail.

I don't know any details but at least some registered sex offenders can petition the court to have that lifetime designation removed after ten years.

In these days of the web it won't be easy hide that past after the record is wiped, but officially removing the designation frees the person from legal restraints on where to live and what jobs to take.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I am not sure what those letters were. Were they character references handed up in open court, having first been shown to the prosecutor? That is a standard procedure in any sentencing hearing.

Help me with these character references. Say I have two rapists of similar ages, and the circumstances surrounding the rapes are similar.

One rapist is a high school dropout with a couple of shoplifting convictions and a generally insecure life. The other rapist is a college sports star, gets good grades at a decent college, and has a life history full of helping little old ladies across roads and raising money for charity.

Should their punishments be different? It seems to me that the answer is no, because none of this character evidence has anything to do with sexual misbehaviour. I have no reason to believe that the low-grade criminal is any more likely to attack other women than the choirboy.

There is a range of considerations which a judge should take into account in fixing a sentence (I am talking of here, other jurisdictions will vary). 3 of these are general deterrence, personal deterrence and rehabilitation. General deterrence deals with letting the general public know that if you commit a crime such as this, you can expect a sentence such as this. Personal deterrence looks more closely at the prisoner's own record - if there is a history of offending, less lenience will be given in the sentence for the matter now before the court.

Rehabilitation involves the judge estimating what the effect of the sentence will be on the prisoner. I don't know about California, but in NSW those imprisoned for sex offences are offered courses in gaol to help them realise the criminality of their behaviour and reduce the chance of future offending. Attendance is not directly compulsory but failure probably will affect release on parole when that becomes possible. A person with good character references will probably be adjudged more likely to respond positively to these programmes and that will affect the sentence. Further, a prisoner who will have strong family or community support on release will probably be given a lighter sentence also.

This sentence seems very light to me. In NSW, I would have thought an overall sentence of 4 years, with 3 years before being considered for parole (not expressed correctly but you get the message). I can think of some circumstances where the 6 months given would be appropriate; at the same time, there will be many cases where a much heavier sentence is called for.

Soros Magna I've done a quick search for rape penalties in California, but can't find any 2 year minimum. A range of other sentences, but no minimum. Can you give a reference please? If the judge has committed that sort of error, is there not the possibility of a prosecution appeal?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:


I didn't say he shouldn't be talked about, but that he has been to a much greater degree than usual. That adds a little something to the overall punishment he is experiencing.

No, sorry. Talking about a crime and the issues surrounding a crime is not a part of the punishment. Indeed, given there is supposed to be a free and fair system of criminal justice, the public are entitled to talk about any crime they want to talk about and infer any wider issues from it.

Because otherwise you have a police state where someone else decides which are and are not important crimes.

quote:

You seem to forget that he was judged guilty of the crime, will be on a registered sex offender list for the rest of his life, and will do time in jail. The amount of time may not matter to you, but I know that first offenders sometimes only end up serving a few years for murder. I think what he did was wrong but not as wrong as murder.

I'm not talking about murder, I'm talking about forced sexual interference.

We've heard that these crimes get punishments of between 2 and 35 years, and as you've said you think it is worth 2 years, then I was curious why you seem to have determined that this is the least-worst situation imaginable - even though you've later said that it is a crime you've never heard of before.

I was wondering how you'd arrived at that estimation, which appears to downplay the severity of the crime and doesn't seem to match the evidence - which is that someone took advantage sexually of someone else whilst they were unconscious.

In my mind, I was trying to think of the range of possible crimes that could be included in this range. I was thinking that likely at the bottom end would be two people of the same age below the age of consent who were caught playing around. At the top end is someone horrible crime we don't even want to type.

So you appear to be saying that because this crime isn't the worst anyone can imagine, it should be at the very bottom of the range, comparable with two teens who have been caught messing about sexually with each other. And that didn't seem to make much sense - unless you're a total dick who thinks that white jocks shouldn't get heavily slapped by the law when they're caught violating unconscious women.

quote:
Do you apply that logic to all criminals. No matter what the crime you think they should get life in prison unless they can prove some sort of sweeping change? Criminals are required to serve their sentence, not change the world or manage to turn back time and undo what they have done. Why shouldn't he be allowed to try to turn his life around? That's part of the work of repentance.
Personally I don't have a mechanistic understanding of justice. Prison to me isn't something we just use so that people can point at it and say to themselves "well, that guy went to prison, so that's all fine and dandy." To me, the important thing isn't punishment, it isn't even repentance, it is restoration to the community. That's true justice.

See, that's the stages that this guy needs to go through. First he needs to admit to himself that yes, this is a real crime, yes he did it and yes he needs to take responsibility for it. No excuses.

Second he needs to make amends. In our society that involves a loss of liberty and privilege. Ideally he also needs to make amends to the victim in some way, although this might not be possible.

Third he needs to ask for forgiveness and work on the changes in his own life to ensure it never happens again.

Fourth, providing all these steps have been honestly and full implemented, he needs to be properly restored to society.

That's not what is happening here. The guy, his father and the legal team seem to be trying to downplay the seriousness of what happened - because he is young, is a sportsman and has his whole life ahead of him - and somehow arguing that admittance of guilt, amendment of life and asking for forgiveness is not necessary.

I'd also say that the attitude of the judge is not helping because justice also needs to be seen to have been done. I don't personally much care how long he spends in prison, but clearly the judge is saying something about the seriousness of the crime with the sentence he has given.


quote:
So what doesn't "relate to the truth?" I said what I thought the sentence should be and what I would consider or not take into account if I were the judge. Of course what I would do is not the same as what the actual judge did. I think he was way off base. Too light a sentence for starters and I don't think the kid's athletic ability should matter one iota. I've already said I thought the father's letter was idiotic. In short, I don't think you read my post very well before arguing with it.
I don't see that you've answered even slightly why in a range of sentences from 2 to 35 years you think this deserves 2 years. And you're making all kinds of excuses which suggest that you don't really think it is very serious.

quote:
P.S. I also think your habit of starting sentences with the false "Help me understand" and "I'm sorry," is obnoxious. You don't want to understand and you're not sorry so don't say it.
I frankly couldn't give a shit what you think.

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arse

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
We Americans are benefiting from this helpful video provided by our friends cross-pond.

This is awesome! And it even covers possibilities like wanting tea last week, but not *now*. I say this should be shown in grade school. Kids are sexually active much earlier, hitting puberty much earlier, and vulnerable to both other kids and adults. This would give them an idea of boundaries, IMHO, and possibly prevent many incidents.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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The one thing it misses out on is "If they say 'I want coffee', don't get them tea".

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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quetzalcoatl
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Don't British judges add to or subtract from a sentence for pleading guilty, showing remorse, and so on? I think they do. A guy the other day was gloating on social media that he got a suspended sentence, and the judge whipped him back in court, and gave him two years.

I read that this guy neither pled guilty nor expressed remorse, but I haven't really checked it in fine detail.

6 months is a fucking joke. Raping while white and affluent, I suppose.

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no path

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Golden Key
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Oh, and TV news had some pics of the guy, evidently showing him using drugs before he went to college--so the claim that he was a clean-cut kid who never used drugs and got lost at college is evidently false, per the news.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:


I didn't say he shouldn't be talked about, but that he has been to a much greater degree than usual. That adds a little something to the overall punishment he is experiencing.

No, sorry. Talking about a crime and the issues surrounding a crime is not a part of the punishment. Indeed, given there is supposed to be a free and fair system of criminal justice, the public are entitled to talk about any crime they want to talk about and infer any wider issues from it.

Once again you're misreading me. I don't think the public should be restrained from talking about a crime. I do think that if it has happened and the perpetrator has received an unusual amount of notoriety -- the sort that will follow him the rest of his life -- then that might be considered a punishment. Not in any legal sense but in the reality of living his life.


quote:

You seem to forget that he was judged guilty of the crime, will be on a registered sex offender list for the rest of his life, and will do time in jail. The amount of time may not matter to you, but I know that first offenders sometimes only end up serving a few years for murder. I think what he did was wrong but not as wrong as murder.

I'm not talking about murder, I'm talking about forced sexual interference.

We've heard that these crimes get punishments of between 2 and 35 years, and as you've said you think it is worth 2 years, then I was curious why you seem to have determined that this is the least-worst situation imaginable - even though you've later said that it is a crime you've never heard of before.[/qb][/quote]

Once again you're misquoting me. I said 3 to 4 years seemed about right. Why do you think "unusual," and "excessively vile" are the same things? I happen to think that finger penetration is less invasive than being raped with a penis. This is an unusual case because most rape cases involve the latter.

quote:
I was wondering how you'd arrived at that estimation, which appears to downplay the severity of the crime and doesn't seem to match the evidence - which is that someone took advantage sexually of someone else whilst they were unconscious.


Well since I didn't arrive at 2 years, but 3-4 I probably shouldn't have addressed this "point," but you and others insist that I'm "down playing " what he did which I have not. In fact I read about this two days before it came here and was fuming about it all day. My husband and I spent the day thinking of horrible things you can do in 20 minutes. Then I calmed down and realized it isn't the boy's fault that his father is an asshole and he should be sentenced in comparison with similar crimes. That's when I decided that if I was the judge I would go with the shorter end of rape sentences, because there was no pre-meditation, no chance of getting her pregnant, no guns, knives or fists, no home invasion. If that's "down playing" then so be it. I would rather err on the side of leniency than be part of a rabid lynch mob based on the words of a perpetrator's relative.

quote:
In my mind, I was trying to think of the range of possible crimes that could be included in this range. I was thinking that likely at the bottom end would be two people of the same age below the age of consent who were caught playing around. At the top end is someone horrible crime we don't even want to type.

Do you think those two would be charged with rape in an adult court? I don't think they're on the spectrum at all.

quote:
So you appear to be saying that because this crime isn't the worst anyone can imagine, it should be at the very bottom of the range, comparable with two teens who have been caught messing about sexually with each other. And that didn't seem to make much sense - unless you're a total dick who thinks that white jocks shouldn't get heavily slapped by the law when they're caught violating unconscious women.

I hate most sports and don't think they should have anything at all to do with criminal sentencing, but while I don't think this man should have been given any leniency for being a college athlete, neither do I think he should be excessively punished for it as you and the Duke Lacrosse team's angry mob seem to think.

There's such a thing as white privilege and also such a thing as people who hate rich whites so much they are just as guilty of prejudice as the worst KKK member.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Somebody somewhere posted all the letters the judge received begging for mercy for the rapist. Now of course I can't find the link, but here is an article summarizing their content.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Originally posted by Twilight
quote:
There's such a thing as white privilege and also such a thing as people who hate rich whites so much they are just as guilty of prejudice as the worst KKK member.
But are the consequences of each the same? How many rich, white people go to prison simply because they are rich, white people?
How many rich, white people are refused housing and work and so on, because they are rich, white people?
This is what the extra outrage is about.
The little shit got a lesser sentence because he is a rich, white male.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Retired prosecuter in that article:

quote:
A retired federal prosecutor and friend of the Turner family, Margaret M. Quinn, asked the judge to consider the long-term damage inflicted by Turner’s conviction: limited job opportunities and the requirement to register as a sex offender.

“As I know you are aware, the collateral consequences of a conviction are staggering,” Quinn wrote, saying they go beyond his expulsion from Stanford.

She asked the judge to consider allowing Turner to counsel young men and “warning them about the devastating consequences of a single decision.” She suggested Turner could serve as a mentor.

“There is no doubt Brock made a mistake that night – he made a mistake in drinking excessively to the point where he could not fully appreciate that his female acquaintance was so intoxicated,” Quinn wrote. “I know Brock did not go to that party intending to hurt, or entice, or overpower anyone. That is not his nature. It has never been.”

See, that's the mistake you're making Ms Quinn. He does have it in his nature, because he sexually assaulted an unconscious woman.

Seriously, who walks home pissed of a night, sees an unconscious women slumped behind a dumpster and thinks that this would be a good time and place to have a spot of nookie? Someone who didn't stop until a couple of foreign students pulled him off her.

Not someone who "doesn't have it in his nature" to "overpower someone".

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arse

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But are the consequences of each the same? How many rich, white people go to prison simply because they are rich, white people?
How many rich, white people are refused housing and work and so on, because they are rich, white people?
This is what the extra outrage is about.
The little shit got a lesser sentence because he is a rich, white male.

Actually I don't think this is really about white privilege. It is about privilege, period.

If you go looking, there are an uncomfortable number of cases where frat boys at top US universities are found guilty of sexually assaulting, sometimes raping, unconscious women.

In one case the judge handed down a 6 month sentence and said he was utterly outraged that the recommendation was that he give a 10 week sentence.

It isn't just white boys, some of the cases are about privileged black frat boys.

Very clearly, if you are in a position where you have articulate parents and letters of recommendation from fucking former federal prosecutors who happen to be family friends, then the justice system looks at you considerably more favourably than if you are a poor and/or black guy from a poor neighbourhood who is caught doing the same thing.

I don't doubt that exactly the same thing would happen in the UK.

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arse

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
He also shouldn't receive a sentence that is a fraction of what other young men who differ only in their skin color have rec'd for the exact same crime.


Exact same crime? Honestly, I never heard of this exact crime before. Man finds unconscious woman and lies on her and fingers her. No penis penetration, no weapons, no hitting. I'm not saying it's better or worse than the typical, 'stranger forces woman at gun/knife point rape,' but surely it's different and you can't actually point to scores of examples of young black men doing the "exact same thing" and getting a harsher punishment can you?

The only similar thing I can think of is the Bill Cosby rapes and he deliberately lured women to his apartment, purposely drugged them to make them unconscious, and he did it to many, many women over the years. And so far hasn't been punished at all.

This case seems quite similar, with the exception of the race of the defendant. The black rapist got a mandatory 15-25 years.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
We Americans are benefiting from this helpful video provided by our friends cross-pond.

This is awesome! And it even covers possibilities like wanting tea last week, but not *now*.
I also liked (relevant to this case) that it indicated that the appropriate response to finding someone unconscious is not to "force them to drink tea" but to make sure they are safe. Seriously, no matter how much you've had to drink, what sort of human being doesn't start with that???

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Seriously, no matter how much you've had to drink, what sort of human being doesn't start with that???

The kind of human from a family who has so much privilege and friends in high places that they've bred a young man who never has to take responsibility for his actions so has nothing to hold him back from his most primaeval of urges.

[ 09. June 2016, 14:05: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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Nothing other than too much alcohol so he couldn't get it up.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Seriously, no matter how much you've had to drink, what sort of human being doesn't start with that???

The kind of human from a family who has so much privilege and friends in high places that they've bred a young man who never has to take responsibility for his actions so has nothing to hold him back from his most primaeval of urges.
How much responsibility for his actions do you think we're teaching our sons from poor families? I haven't noticed the superior morality and law abiding traits of these young men. How anxious are the men from the poverty class to marry the women who get pregnant with their child? For that matter, I haven't noticed too many young women of any class with a big sense of responsibility or a great awareness that actions have consequences.

How easy to blame this incident on white privilege. Then we don't have to look at ourselves and how we have failed to teach our children so many very important things.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Seriously, no matter how much you've had to drink, what sort of human being doesn't start with that???

The kind of human from a family who has so much privilege and friends in high places that they've bred a young man who never has to take responsibility for his actions so has nothing to hold him back from his most primaeval of urges.
How much responsibility for his actions do you think we're teaching our sons from poor families? I haven't noticed the superior morality and law abiding traits of these young men. How anxious are the men from the poverty class to marry the women who get pregnant with their child? For that matter, I haven't noticed too many young women of any class with a big sense of responsibility or a great awareness that actions have consequences.

How easy to blame this incident on white privilege. Then we don't have to look at ourselves and how we have failed to teach our children so many very important things.

Yes, perhaps "male privilege" is what we should be talking about here, remembering that just as white people will talk about "white privilege" knowing they didn't choose it, but do need to acknowledge it and account for it, so too, men didn't choose male privilege, but do need to acknowledge it and account for it.

But... there is a strong & historical pattern among African American parents to teach their sons at an early age very very strict behavioral rules about how to engage society (particularly the police) in a still very racially charged society. (Poignantly discussed in this "letter to the white parents of my black son's friends").

Because they know that young black men do get unfairly targeted/sentenced, they are extra concerned about their behavior. The horrible side of this, of course, is the realization of how racist our society is, how easy it is for young black men to be unfairly accused and even convicted. At it's best it would teach young black men that their actions have consequences. At it's worst it teaches them that the world it out to get them, and their actions don't matter because the police/society/judicial system will go after them no matter what, so why not fight back against an unjust system.

But the flip side that people are protesting here is the message to young white men like this one-- a similar message that your actions don't matter, only in this case because the society is unjustly stacked in your favor, and influential friends and family will be able to get you off (unfortunate choice of words... ). And that message, too, has real consequences.

Both are horrible outcomes. Both are detrimental to our society. But allowing the one (white privilege/no accountability) does not help the other (learned helplessness/rebellion). Rather, we need to work toward eliminating both thru a more just judicial system that assures that our actions-- even our impulsive alcohol-fueled 20 min. actions-- have real consequences.

[ 09. June 2016, 15:37: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
How much responsibility for his actions do you think we're teaching our sons from poor families? I haven't noticed the superior morality and law abiding traits of these young men. How anxious are the men from the poverty class to marry the women who get pregnant with their child? For that matter, I haven't noticed too many young women of any class with a big sense of responsibility or a great awareness that actions have consequences.

How easy to blame this incident on white privilege. Then we don't have to look at ourselves and how we have failed to teach our children so many very important things.

It was privilege which got him in the situation in the first place.
It was privilege which led his father to address the judge in that way.
It was privilege that meant he had so many people giving character references.
It is privilege that means he thinks he can "educate" others about the dangers of overdrinking
And ultimately it is privilege which means he'll never have to account for his actions.

Meanwhile the lack of privilege elsewhere means that black men languish in prison for the sake of stealing a book.

Yeah, it terribly fucking easy to blame this incident on white privilege. Because white privilege was to blame for it.

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arse

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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A helpful link from a Canadian campaign: "Don't be that guy".
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Penny S
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# 14768

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I see that his grandparents are concerned that
quote:
“Brock is the only person being held accountable for the actions of other irresponsible adults.”
I assume this is victim blaming. Otherwise, what?
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Actually I don't think this is really about white privilege. It is about privilege, period.

I disagree. For one statistics show that black men receive significantly higher sentences than white men for the same crimes. Yes, you can find exceptions, but they are just that.
Privilege is a factor as well, rich and connected can be mitigating factors. But an increase in melanin leads to an increase in sentence.
Would this judge have sentence a black athlete from the same school more harshly? I do not know. But the odds are he would.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Beenster
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# 242

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I see that his grandparents are concerned that
quote:
“Brock is the only person being held accountable for the actions of other irresponsible adults.”
I assume this is victim blaming. Otherwise, what?
Perhaps blaming the parents for not teaching their son respect and responsiblity, to be a caring young man and not supporting him in the road of being accountable and living with the consequence of his actions. His parents failed him and continue to do so.
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Penny S
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Blaming their own daughter then - which seems unlikely.
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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
Perhaps blaming the parents for not teaching their son respect and responsiblity, to be a caring young man and not supporting him in the road of being accountable and living with the consequence of his actions. His parents failed him and continue to do so.

I have no idea what the grandmother was getting at, but I really agree with what you've just said. I doubt if this young man was feeling that he had special rights because he was white, rich or male. One person reported that he told him before the party that he was determined to "hook up with someone." In his messed up mind was the idea that "hooking up" was what frat parties were all about and he wasn't going to miss out.

He got very drunk and had not achieved his goal of hooking up. He saw the passed out girl and did something horrible, not because of wealth or color but because nowhere in his conscience was a voice saying how wrong this was, that it was against all codes of decent behavior. If it was there it wasn't as loud as his base desires. This lack of conscience, this lack of a strong sense of right and wrong and where the line is drawn is a failing of parents, schools and churches.

I happen to be reading, "The Secret Scripture," right now and I saw this quote yesterday:
quote:
Those that feed them do not love them,
those that clothe them do not fear for them.



This means something else in the book, but it made me think of these two young people. The boy's parents no doubt provided him with everything money could buy, but didn't love him enough to teach him right from wrong. The girls parents no doubt provided her with all the pretty clothes that money could buy, but failed to keep her safe. We need to fear for our young girls so much more than we actually do. While bending over backward not to victim shame we fail to warn them about things like going to large parties with a bunch of strangers and getting drunk. None of that makes him less guilty and it doesn't make her guilty at all, but the fact remains -- she got raped. She was not kept safe. No one feared for her and they should have.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I doubt if this young man was feeling that he had special rights because he was white, rich or male.

Of course not. No one does. That's the part about "privilege" that often is missed-- the defining element of privilege is that you don't think you're getting special treatment-- you think everyone is getting the same deal you are. That's what privilege means. Privilege does NOT mean that you think you're better or more deserving than blacks/ women/ immigrants/ poor and it's right that you get certain advantages, it's that your limited experience blinds you to the hidden advantages you benefit from. That's not your fault-- we all have blindspots because of our limited perspective-- but it is something we should strive to be aware of and to overcome.


quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
He got very drunk and had not achieved his goal of hooking up. He saw the passed out girl and did something horrible, not because of wealth or color but because nowhere in his conscience was a voice saying how wrong this was, that it was against all codes of decent behavior. If it was there it wasn't as loud as his base desires. This lack of conscience, this lack of a strong sense of right and wrong and where the line is drawn is a failing of parents, schools and churches.

I think we all agree with this-- although it bears repeating. The fault lies in a moral deficiency in Brock that has nothing to do with his color or his wealth. It may or may not have something to do with his parental upbringing-- we don't know. But it is a moral failing.

But that's not what the outrage is about. He had a huge moral failing-- which was correctly identified by the DA who brought and appropriate charge and the jury who returned a just verdict-- guilty.

The outrage is about the actions of the judge in assigning a sentence that is very much out of proportion with the crime and the norms for this crime. Here is where there is a strong stench of privilege-- in part because of the judge's own statements about how he doesn't want to ruin such a promising future. ALL young people-- rich, poor, black, white, athlete or nerd-- they ALL have a promising future. We can't know what's in the judge's heart, but it certainly looks like white (or athletic) privilege that would cause him to think this one young man's future needed greater preservation than that of his victims or of other young men with similar crimes.


quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The boy's parents no doubt provided him with everything money could buy, but didn't love him enough to teach him right from wrong. The girls parents no doubt provided her with all the pretty clothes that money could buy, but failed to keep her safe. We need to fear for our young girls so much more than we actually do. While bending over backward not to victim shame we fail to warn them about things like going to large parties with a bunch of strangers and getting drunk. None of that makes him less guilty and it doesn't make her guilty at all, but the fact remains -- she got raped. She was not kept safe. No one feared for her and they should have.

No. Hell no. Her parents didn't mess up by not keeping her safe-- because no woman is safe in a world where a young man can rape an unconscious woman and get away with a slap on the wrist. If anyone messed up it's us as a society for failing to keep her and all women safe.

Sure, she made a poor choice in getting drunk. That doesn't mean her parents didn't warn her about getting drunk-- they probably did. I don't know what % of college-age young people get drunk occasionally, but I'm willing to bet it's north of 75%. And I'm willing to bet the majority of their parents warned them not to. It happens. Because this is the age when young people do stupid things. In fact, all people make mistakes and do stupid things sometimes. A good portion of them get drunk when they're waaay past college age. That's why we as a society have some guardrails-- both literal and figurative-- to minimize the negative consequences when we make a mistake or a stupid choice. Because we all will.

To suggest that her parents are deficient here is just as victim-bashing as saying she is at fault. I suspect they have been as marked by this experience as she was. Again, to correct the letter of Brock's high school friend: rape does not happen because women get drunk-- or wear revealing clothes-- or walk down a dark street. Rape happens because there are rapists. End stop.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Huia
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# 3473

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Thank you for your thoughtful post Cliffdweller.

It's easier for me to be aware of the sports privilege that happens in our courts, particularly regarding the All Blacks (the NZ national rugby team) because I have little interest in the game, while recognising white privilege has been (and probably still is) more challenging because I have to face ways that I personally am privileged.

The New Zealand national myth of an egalitarian society dies hard.

Huia

[ 09. June 2016, 23:21: Message edited by: Huia ]

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:


Rape happens because there are rapists. End stop.

No. Rape happens because there are rapists and the rapists find victims. No man ever committed rape alone.

By insisting that it's wrong to try to keep our daughters from going to frat parties and getting blind drunk -- because you think that would be victim blaming -- you're saying you're ready to sacrifice those girls on the altar of feminist rhetoric.

Prevention is not victim blaming. There's nothing wrong with locking your doors. It's ridiculous to think that saying, "Lock your door," is the same as saying "If you don't lock your door then it's your fault if you get raped."

All across America's college campuses young women are probably repeating speeches like you just made. That doesn't change anything. What they should be doing is refusing to go to frat parties where drunkenness is rampant and sex is going on in every room. It wouldn't take long for things to change. Men don't like parties with no women.

For thousands of years, right up until I was in college, parties for young single people were chaperoned. Now we just throw the young women to the wolves and get outraged and angry when something like this happens. Wouldn't it be better if they didn't get raped in the first place? Don't they deserve a little protection from us, or would that be victim blaming?

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
What they should be doing is refusing to go to frat parties where drunkenness is rampant and sex is going on in every room. . . . For thousands of years . . . parties for young single people were chaperoned. Now we just throw the young women to the wolves and get outraged and angry when something like this happens.

Thank you for finding the courage to say what needed to be said.

--------------------
"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:


Rape happens because there are rapists. End stop.

No. Rape happens because there are rapists and the rapists find victims. No man ever committed rape alone.

By insisting that it's wrong to try to keep our daughters from going to frat parties and getting blind drunk -- because you think that would be victim blaming -- you're saying you're ready to sacrifice those girls on the altar of feminist rhetoric.

Prevention is not victim blaming.

That's a strawman. No one is suggesting prevention is wrong. No one is suggesting that parents, colleges, etc. shouldn't attempt to teach their girls how to avoid rape. And most do. No one-- even the most feminist icon-- would argue with that.

What I objected to was your after-the-fact blaming of the victim's parents-- just a step removed from victim-bashing. You assume because she made a stupid mistake her parents never warned her properly about the dangers of drinking. I suggested you have no idea if that is, in fact, the case. Again, the vast majority of college students drink, occasionally to intoxication, and I'm guessing the majority of their parents have warned them against the dangers. Pretty much every college in American includes this sort of training/education as part of the orientation process.

But again, this is the age when people make stupid mistakes. Actually, every age is, but young adulthood-- when you're first out of the house and under your parents' direct supervision-- is when we make the most. And it's always been that way. It was that way a thousand years ago when you and I went to college it was that way a thousand years earlier when our parents went off to college or work or whatever. It's a developmental life stage.

I went to a conservative Christian college more than 50 years ago with all sorts of rules-- no boys in the girls dorms, no drinking, no dancing, all sorts of rules. We were warned by parents and faculty and advisors. And yet... students drank, sometimes to intoxication. It happens.

No one here is suggesting we don't warn our daughters about all the above. We can, we should, we must. But... they will still make mistakes. They will make stupid choices. And there will be consequences when they do-- that's how we learn. But rape should not be one of those consequences.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Net Spinster
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# 16058

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
What they should be doing is refusing to go to frat parties where drunkenness is rampant and sex is going on in every room. . . . For thousands of years . . . parties for young single people were chaperoned. Now we just throw the young women to the wolves and get outraged and angry when something like this happens.

Thank you for finding the courage to say what needed to be said.
Actually for thousands of years young single women had little choice in who they would marry (and were fair game if their city was conquered). Yes getting drunk is foolish since there are plenty of non-human dangers (the daughter of a former co-worker of mine fell off a cliff while drunk and suffered permanent brain damage). However it doesn't lessen the guilt of the rapist or thief who takes advantage of the opportunity. Thieves don't get a lesser penalty because their victim was drunk; they don't even get a lesser penalty if they claim the victim promised them the money after they are caught red handed taking bills from the unconscious victim's wallet.

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spinner of webs

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.

etc.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
What they should be doing is refusing to go to frat parties where drunkenness is rampant and sex is going on in every room. . . . For thousands of years . . . parties for young single people were chaperoned. Now we just throw the young women to the wolves and get outraged and angry when something like this happens.

Thank you for finding the courage to say what needed to be said.
Replace women with gay men and the beatings and worse they have received whilst drunk or walking alone at night and tell me those who say they should have been more careful are courageous.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Replace women with gay men and the beatings and worse they have received whilst drunk or walking alone at night and tell me those who say they should have been more careful are courageous.

brava brava brava. [Overused]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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"Brock Turner case fallout: Prospective jurors refuse to serve under judge" (San Jose Mercury-News).

And I also noticed that Vice-President Biden wrote an open letter to the young woman who was raped. I think he published it at Buzzfeed, but there are other articles about it. (Open letter, because her identity is being protected, so he can't write directly.) IIRC, he basically said she's brave, her letter is good, and he's sorry she had to write it.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Prevention is not victim blaming. There's nothing wrong with locking your doors. It's ridiculous to think that saying, "Lock your door," is the same as saying "If you don't lock your door then it's your fault if you get raped."

Context matters. When a house is broken into and someone's priceless family heirloom has been stolen and they have been threatened violently inside their home, we see reporting and sentencing by judges that focuses on the damage done to the victims. We don't see articles opining about the carelessness of the victims in terms of the standard of the door lock, we don't get parents of the criminals saying "it was only 20mins of threatening a family in their own home" and we don't find that commenting on the need for security in the home is a brave and courageous statement that needs to be said.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:


Rape happens because there are rapists. End stop.

No. Rape happens because there are rapists and the rapists find victims. No man ever committed rape alone.

By insisting that it's wrong to try to keep our daughters from going to frat parties and getting blind drunk -- because you think that would be victim blaming -- you're saying you're ready to sacrifice those girls on the altar of feminist rhetoric.

I also believe there is much too much acceptance of the stupid frat overdrinking behaviour. And over intoxication generally in society.

All sensible parents talk to their daughters about risky behaviours, casual sex and intoxication.

But the thing is here that there is a dramatic difference between someone getting blind drunk and someone raping someone else.

Getting blind drunk and falling behind a dumpster on the way home is stupid behaviour. Utterly and totally stupid. The risks of accident and damage to the person are considerable.

But raping someone who is intoxicated to the point that they're unconscious is some level beyond that. A pissed up frat is a danger to themselves, but that is no excuse for someone else taking advantage of them sexually.

That's like saying truck lorry driver is not fully responsible for deliberately driving over the head of the person lying in the street because the latter is blind drunk.

A focus on the inebriation of the victim is an attempt to take the focus off the fact that some bastard deliberately drove over her head.

quote:
Prevention is not victim blaming. There's nothing wrong with locking your doors. It's ridiculous to think that saying, "Lock your door," is the same as saying "If you don't lock your door then it's your fault if you get raped."
No, clearly there is a lot to be said about young people and alcohol consumption. But that is not effectively done in the context of a helpless woman victim being raped.

Because in that context, it clearly is victim blaming. It suggests that if the woman hadn't been drunk, she wouldn't have been raped. And that in some sense she was "asking for it".

quote:
All across America's college campuses young women are probably repeating speeches like you just made. That doesn't change anything. What they should be doing is refusing to go to frat parties where drunkenness is rampant and sex is going on in every room. It wouldn't take long for things to change. Men don't like parties with no women.
I can't disagree with that.

quote:
For thousands of years, right up until I was in college, parties for young single people were chaperoned. Now we just throw the young women to the wolves and get outraged and angry when something like this happens. Wouldn't it be better if they didn't get raped in the first place? Don't they deserve a little protection from us, or would that be victim blaming?
I can totally disagree with that. Who chaperones the chaperones?

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arse

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Penny S
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# 14768

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That link led me on to the full letter from Turner Snr, and to Turner's own letter, in which he is the victim of the violent attack by the Swedish gentlemen.
The victim, presumably, had to listen to that stuff during the trial.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
That link led me on to the full letter from Turner Snr, and to Turner's own letter, in which he is the victi of the violent attack by the Swedish gentlemen.
The victim, presumably, had to listen to that stuff during the trial.

According to the Guardian, he still refuses to acknowledge he did anything wrong.

And that there is what is so messed up about this whole thing.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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link to the full statement.

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arse

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