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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fuck the Amerixan injustice system
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Yeah, as I have only posted about three times with great space in between post, that went by me as well.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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Talking of space, it feels a bit chilly and quiet here.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Talking of space, it feels a bit chilly and quiet here.

People are busy yelling about other things now.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18144 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Threads wax and wane like the moon, only with less effect on menstruation.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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I’m late a bit late to this train wreck of a thread. FWIW I agree with a lot of what Twilight was saying and I think a lot of the posters responding to her were misreading what she wrote and (possibly deliberately, possibly unintentionally) misrepresenting what she was trying to say. I notice that a lot of the people responding to her don’t live in the US, so it’s possible that we’re simply reacting to different cultural contexts.

Soror Magna, OTOH, is a typical SJW. She possesses a blind faith in an ideology that rivals any Christian fundamentalist’s insistence that their arbitrary belief system is the only true one, and her faith is just as impervious to evidence and argumentation. She excuses her nastiness (and make no mistake, she has an incredibly nasty streak, even if the denizens laughed at me the last time I tried to point it out) on the basis of the fact that she’s supposedly protecting the vulnerable and stopping people from saying or doing things they ought not to be saying or doing in the first place.

It may very well be her experience, but I have no idea what the fuck she’s talking about when she says things like “When is someone going to tell MEN to just stop raping?” In my world, people have been doing that my entire life. Just like people have been telling people not to murder and steal and whatnot my entire life. With some people the message just doesn’t take, hence the need for risk reduction strategies. Seriously, male shipmates, I can understand if nobody taught you anything about rape because the subject was too awkward or your parents expected you to wait until marriage to have sex and didn’t give a lot of advice about negotiating the world of drunken hookups with strangers, but how many of you weren’t taught that rape is wrong? This attack on such an obvious strawman is a waste of energy and diverts time, energy, and funding away from finding solutions to things that are actually problems.

And, apparently unlike Soror Magna, I’m not constantly bombarded by advice on how to avoid getting raped. I think I could probably count the number of times I’ve received advice on that subject on one hand; I’m far more likely to receive advice on how to avoid other forms of assault and other crimes (such as theft). As someone who as experienced sexual assault (rape - although that word has lost all meaning at this point), I’d far rather talk to someone like Twilight than deal with Soror Magna’s patronizing attitude and resignation to the fact that women are simply going to be helpless victims until the men decide to do something. It’s all up to somebody else.

Do people seriously think that tea video is brilliant? Are you planning on showing it to middle schoolers? Because if you showed that to any college student I know, it’s would just annoy them. And possibly fuel some kind of ‘no means yes and yes means anal’ protest march. Because most men know that rape is wrong and find the current efforts at education (at least at the college + level) patronizing and infuriating.

You know,when Slutwalk first started up and I had the audacity to question whether or not the police officer had actually said what he was accused of saying, I got death threat and a bunch of comments along the lines of ‘you should be raped, then maybe you’d understand’ from the SJWs. Which has not done a lot to persuade me that people like Soror Magna have the moral high ground, especially given the lack of reading comprehension.

Twilight, I was going to PM you, but apparently I can’t. I hate to see you go, even if I do understand it. (The ship continues its march towards being a liberal echo chamber where no one need confront an idea they disagree with...)

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I notice that a lot of the people responding to her don’t live in the US, so it’s possible that we’re simply reacting to different cultural contexts.

fwiw, I have lived in the US all my life.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11129 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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I almost pointed out that you were the exception but decided against it.

But it's hell, so I suppose I should expect nitpicking.

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2941 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I almost pointed out that you were the exception but decided against it.

But it's hell, so I suppose I should expect nitpicking.

fwiw.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11129 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I notice that a lot of the people responding to her don’t live in the US, so it’s possible that we’re simply reacting to different cultural contexts.

fwiw I live in the US.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63201 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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1) "a lot" is not the same thing as "all". That's why I didn't say "all"

2) You and Twilight got into it over the fact that she accidentally used your name in a post, but can you point me to where you respond to any of the points she was attempting to make?

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2941 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:

Soror Magna, OTOH, is a typical SJW.

You know that using SJW as an insult was devised by people who would see you, as a woman, have no rights? Those who would see people of colour as second-class citizens? It is fucked up that something which is good is used as a way to end conversation without actually addressing anything.
I'm not defending SM's mental heath insults, BTW.

quote:

“When is someone going to tell MEN to just stop raping?” In my world, people have been doing that my entire life. Just like people have been telling people not to murder and steal and whatnot my entire life. With some people the message just doesn’t take, hence the need for risk reduction strategies. Seriously, male shipmates, I can understand if nobody taught you anything about rape because the subject was too awkward or your parents expected you to wait until marriage to have sex and didn’t give a lot of advice about negotiating the world of drunken hookups with strangers, but how many of you weren’t taught that rape is wrong? This attack on such an obvious strawman is a waste of energy and diverts time, energy, and funding away from finding solutions to things that are actually problems.

What the serious fuck? You are wrong. The case which caused this thread is a perfect example of how much education and enforcement still needs to be done.

Did you actually read very much of this thread? No one has said being careful is a bad thing or unnecessary.
quote:

Twilight, I was going to PM you, but apparently I can’t. I hate to see you go,

I do not wish to see her leave either. I often disagree with her, but I think her heart is in the right place and she generally listens. That is a valuable trait, especially when consensus is not reached.
quote:

(The ship continues its march towards being a liberal echo chamber where no one need confront an idea they disagree with...)

Though I would agree that the Ship lists to port, this is rubbish.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I notice that a lot of the people responding to her don’t live in the US, so it’s possible that we’re simply reacting to different cultural contexts.

fwiw, I have lived in the US all my life.
And Kelly Alves, mousethief, Golden Key, RuthW, Mertseger, Ariston... Rook lives in America and is from America Jr. no prophet can see the U.S. from his backyard.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17089 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You know that using SJW as an insult was devised by people who would see you, as a woman, have no rights? Those who would see people of colour as second-class citizens?

Bullshit.

quote:
It is fucked up that something which is good is used as a way to end conversation without actually addressing anything.
[Confused] What does that sentence even mean?

quote:
What the serious fuck? You are wrong.
No, I'm not wrong. So 13% of men admit they would rape a woman. That says nothing about whether or not they were taught that it's wrong. What percentage of people are taught that stealing or murder or adultery or whatever else is wrong but would do it anyway?

As for the 31% - I don't have time right now to look up the articles that debunk that survey, but IIRC the results are extremely exaggerated (I think they included things like using minor verbal coercion as using force - not to mention the fact that the question itself makes no sense as it asks if people would do something if no one knew about it - the question might make sense if it asked 'if no one besides the victim knew about it' but as it stands it's just another one of those nonsensical highly manipulative surveys they're always inflicting on us).

quote:
The case which caused this thread is a perfect example of how much education and enforcement still needs to be done.
How so? Do you really think education alone would convince any of the people involved that their behavior was wrong?

quote:
Did you actually read very much of this thread? No one has said being careful is a bad thing or unnecessary.
Yes, I read the whole thread. More than once because a lot of people's reactions simply made no sense to me.

Maybe no one has said that being careful is a bad thing or unnecessary. But apparently we're not allowed to give any advice to others about how to be careful because we just need to teach men to stop raping. Because no one's ever tried that before.

I used to work at colleges. Some of the advice I used to give went as follows:

1) You never have to be alone with anyone. Ever. There's nothing that says you do. And you don't need a particularly good reason to refuse to be alone with someone. If someone makes you uncomfortable, even if you can't pinpoint the exact reason, you're perfectly within your rights to refuse to be alone with them. Sometimes when someone makes you uncomfortable it's because they're violating minor boundaries. Someone who violates minor boundaries isn't necessarily going to violate major ones, but it's more likely.

2) Binge drinking is stupid. Getting falling down, throwing up, blackout drunk is just stupid and unhealthy and may put you in danger.

3) Getting drunk and hooking up with someone you barely know is stupid. If you've had more than a couple of drinks and you meet someone yo like, GET THEIR NUMBER. Don't go home with them.

4) Y'all need to watch out for each other. If you have a friend of either sex who looks like they're about to go off with someone - even if it looks like they both want to - but you know your friend is stupid drunk, try to talk them out of it; try to convince them to get the person's number but to go home and sleep in their own bed.

Even prefaced with a statement about how rape is a terrible thing and if it happens it isn't your fault, blah, blah, blah, the office of sexual assault prevention made me stop telling students that as it was victim-blaming towards any student who didn't follow that advice and was sexually assaulted.

Because all we need to do is to tell men to stop raping.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2941 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Threads wax and wane like the moon, only with less effect on menstruation.

Though it seems counter-intuitive to wane following such an inadequate explanation for nasty personalized comments about mental health that have resulted in someone walking away from the ship.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
1) "a lot" is not the same thing as "all". That's why I didn't say "all"

2) You and Twilight got into it over the fact that she accidentally used your name in a post, but can you point me to where you respond to any of the points she was attempting to make?

Am I required to respond to every point made by every poster in every thread I participate in? Since when?

And if, as you claim, you have read all this thread, you will know that it is not just that she accidentally used my name, but the ugly things she said, that I got upset. This appears to have passed you by. Probably because you think the same ugly things she does.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63201 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You know that using SJW as an insult was devised by people who would see you, as a woman, have no rights? Those who would see people of colour as second-class citizens?

Bullshit.
Really? Then give me examples of people who use it and still support women's equality, minority equality, efforts to lift people out of poverty, etc.
quote:

quote:
It is fucked up that something which is good is used as a way to end conversation without actually addressing anything.
[Confused] What does that sentence even mean?
It means fighting for social justice is a good thing. And that people who use the label SJW do so to avoid dealing with the issues raised. Like politically correct it is used pejoratively to allow the user to continue unjustifiable behaviour.

Education isn't merely telling people something is wrong. It is helping them understand why. And this is where many places are failing still. To speak of proper behaviour in a lecture hall or in a rule book means nothing when cases such as this one show them the consequences are relatively minor.

As far as the study, show me a link that is not from a "men's rights" site, and we'll talk.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Threads wax and wane like the moon, only with less effect on menstruation.

Though it seems counter-intuitive to wane following such an inadequate explanation for nasty personalized comments about mental health that have resulted in someone walking away from the ship.
Yes. One is tempted to draw unpleasant conclusions from this.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17089 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Am I required to respond to every point made by every poster in every thread I participate in?

Obviously not. But if you're going to use yourself as an example of an American who has responded to Twilight's points (in order to refute my claim that a lot of people responding to her were not) it would help if you had actually responded to one of her points.

quote:
And if, as you claim, you have read all this thread, you will know that it is not just that she accidentally used my name, but the ugly things she said, that I got upset. This appears to have passed you by.
It was obvious to me that she was talking about a hypothetical. I think it was a huge mistake to use any Shipmate's name in the hypothetical, but I'm not sure what's so ugly about what she said. The fact is that administrators at a lot of colleges and universities are flat-out forbidden from mentioning any connection between alcohol and rape. This is stupid and has consequences. I read that as being her point - I certainly didn't see any intent to accuse any particular shipmate of bad parenting.

quote:
Probably because you think the same ugly things she does.
[Roll Eyes]

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2941 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Am I required to respond to every point made by every poster in every thread I participate in?

Obviously not. But if you're going to use yourself as an example of an American who has responded to Twilight's points (in order to refute my claim that a lot of people responding to her were not) it would help if you had actually responded to one of her points.
You didn't say responding to her POINTS you said responding to HER. Nice try.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63201 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Maybe no one has said that being careful is a bad thing or unnecessary. But apparently we're not allowed to give any advice to others about how to be careful because we just need to teach men to stop raping. Because no one's ever tried that before.

Well, I'm not American and that seems to be your criterion for permission to comment on this thread. Apparently if we're not American we can't understand things sufficiently.

But, I'm also one of those you seem to think have been saying we shouldn't be giving advice about being careful. Just for the record, I've no objection at all to giving sensible advice. My questioning of Twilight was on two fronts.

One was that she seemed to be saying we need to give advice to young women, but that there was no corresponding advice to young men. Yes, not getting so drunk you are unable to make sensible decisions is good advice - for men as well as women. As well as being discriminatory, saying young women shouldn't enjoy themselves but men could, it also doesn't address the problem fully - eg: that alcohol fueled young men are more likely to overstep boundaries than sober young men.

My second concern, that others made more clearly, was that once you start issuing guidance on behaviour then those who fail to follow that advice get labelled as "asking for it". Victim blaming is not helpful, indeed quite the opposite. Young women going to a party should be able to wear what they want, they should be able to drink what they want, they should be able to walk home at the end of the night without anyone saying that they're asking to be assaulted.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32184 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Young women going to a party should be able to wear what they want, they should be able to drink what they want, they should be able to walk home at the end of the night without anyone saying that they're asking to be assaulted.

This is a question of balance for me. You have a conditional on the end of that sentence - "without anyone saying...".

There are moments on this thread though where the implication is that anyone advising a woman not to wear, drink and walk where they want is victim blaming. And there are contexts where that is true.

For instance if the first response to hearing about a rape case where the offender gets off with a light sentence is to remind women not to drink excessively, then that is very likely victim blaming rather than sensible advice.

If in the context of a more balanced response that focuses first on proper sentencing, enabling reporting and catching offenders then turns to balanced prevention advice then I think anyone picking out the comments that could be read as victim blaming is being unreasonable.

Having said that even if someone is straying into victim blaming I don't think that is license to say the most hurtful thing one can possibly find to say about their personal circumstances.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijion:
There are moments on this thread though where the implication is that anyone advising a woman not to wear, drink and walk where they want is victim blaming. And there are contexts where that is true.

Clothing isn't in the same category as behaviour. Drinking excessively or venturing into unsafe places are behaviours that can put one at risk for all sort of danger, and can be addressed as giving sensible advice. Advising women on what to wear to avoid rape is victim blaming everytime.

[ 17. June 2016, 10:35: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17089 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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Why is it in a different category? It is a behavioural choice just like alcohol and staggering home drunk are.

I suggest the different reaction is because commenting on clothing choices is far more often associated with "dressed like a slut, deserved it" and is more likely to carry judgemental overtones.

Nevertheless I travel to many areas of the world where women who dress in various European styles are very likely to be harassed in the street. Is advising them of that likelihood really victim blaming every time?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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One difference is that advice about clothing almost always applies only to a section of the population, mostly young women. Advice about not getting drunk, not walking through particular areas of town at night and similar are applicable to most people.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32184 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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Although where that advice on drinking is given in the context of avoiding date-rape with spiked drinks, for instance, it is generally intended for women. I agree theoretically it could be given to men as well, but that generally isn't the practice and most people know that when they read the advice.

I suppose "provocative dressing" could theoretically refer to wearing an Arsenal T-shirt in Millwall-land, but in practice when people talk about "provocative dressing" they usually mean non-burkha-wearing women.

(This is a common point to the dog-whistle purgatory thread here as well here).

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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It occurs to me there is one other difference - the clothes we wear are part of our identity. Being told to avoid wearing certain things in order to avoid being raped is therefore asking that we curtail our self-expression in the face of a criminal threat.

Watching one's drink carefully for being spiked is not really attacking anyone's identity.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I would also suspect that women from communities where wearing a burkha, hijab, or other full-body covering is culturally mandated would take issue with the idea that it protects them from rape.

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Forward the New Republic

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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You mean that the protection isn't complete and therefore rape continues?

If so I'm sure that is true, but nevertheless it simply is a fact that in some settings the further one's dress sense departs from the burkha the more likely harassment is. I'm completely supportive of brave women who claim their right to not wear a burkha, but I think visitors ought to be aware of the likely opposition they will face if they do that.

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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No, what you wear/do/go/drive clearly has been shown over history to have nothing to do with whether you are raped or not. (Nuns in their habits have been raped.) All a man's problems with his sex drive and abuse thereof reside solely, always, and forever until the end of time, with him and him alone. Being raped, accosted, groped, or catcalled is never the fault of the victim and always the fault of the perp, and it is important to never give an inch on this ever again.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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I've observed in very recent history that there are some areas of the Middle-East where catcalls and harassment is directed especially frequently towards women not wearing burkhas.

I think that can be observed without excusing the harassers and catcallers. Would "not giving an inch" mean that we don't pass that information on to anyone? Or that when we pass it on we make sure the context shows we don't mention this by way of excusing the guilty parties?

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Although where that advice on drinking is given in the context of avoiding date-rape with spiked drinks, for instance, it is generally intended for women. I agree theoretically it could be given to men as well, but that generally isn't the practice and most people know that when they read the advice.

I agree that the spiking of drinks is a risk, and being careful on that issue is something mostly related to women. But, that's not the same as "don't drink too much". No one is saying that women shouldn't drink, even too excess, just that they need to keep an eye on their drinks.

The advice about drinking too much covers a wide range of potential problems, that mostly apply to both men and women. Risks of falling over and injuring yourself (also, wandering into traffic, falling in a river ...) are by far the biggest. Then, risks of being easy prey to a thief, or simply dropping and losing your phone/cash/plastic. Risks of losing control and doing something stupid (eg: getting into a fight), but also added to that the risks of sleeping with someone you wouldn't have slept with if sober - and I suggest there's a good chance of both parties waking up next to whoever and regretting the actions of the night before. And, it's probably that a lot of rape happens because men have had too much to drink and lost control, and something stupid turns into criminal assault.

Plenty of very good reasons not too drink too much without needing to single out women saying they shouldn't drink too much (and, by implication, that it's not as bad if men overdo it).

quote:
I suppose "provocative dressing" could theoretically refer to wearing an Arsenal T-shirt in Millwall-land, but in practice when people talk about "provocative dressing" they usually mean non-burkha-wearing women.
Which is why I said "almost always". The example I was thinking of was I once saw a young man in a tee-shirt, the front of which had a variation on the "Ghostbusters" logo, with the ghost replaced by a liverbird and the caption "Scousebusters", and MUFC on the back. Seen in a park in Liverpool. Which comes under "inadvisable" in my book.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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So, if you scroll back in the thread, saysay, you will note Alan is probably the one person who did make quite a meticulous effort to respond to Twilight's points. For his efforts, he was treated to a description of his very, VERY young daughter performing a strip tease/ pole dance.

Yes, the comments Soror Magnum made afterward were inexcusable, but I personally went so visceral after the pole dancing thing I couldn't even see it. I hope Twilght comes back, but it 's easy for me to see why people hit defcon 1.

I guess one of the reasons being oddly singled out and confronted about my, er, three post contribution to a dog pile sticks in my craw is that in order to paint me as a dogpile lovin' bully is that you have to erase a good four or five years of my posting history to make that dog hunt. For years, I was that flake who would waltz to a Hell thread and Rodney King everyone. It kind of got beat out of me. I was called an appeaser, a troll- lover, a gullible crybaby, I was lectured on the sacred culling power of Hell and the social efficiency of the holy dogpile,I was told I didn't get Hell, didn't get the Ship, wanted the Ship to be sterile and sanitary, should go hide in beliefnet if I wanted safe, and ( my personal favorite, as it was clearly hand crafted to inflict the most pain) that I was flying in the face of everything Erin held dear. Once I even got a junior host smack for stating I thought the punishment in progress was well exceeding the crime and I personally was gonna peace out.

Hell, I remember Mousethief chiding me off board for being " that annoying person who has to play devil's advocate" or something. ( I disagreed with him, IOW.)

Not once do I remember anyone pausing to remark, "Hey, Kelly, I totally disagree with you, but it could'nt have been easy to speak up knowing the majority of the people you admire and respect are gonna treat you like a chew toy." No, it usually devolved to some conclusion that I didn't belong here.

I think time has really rendered that particular line of argument ridiculous, but ( as the soliloquy above demonstrates) My experiences have made me rather sensitive to Fluxuations in dogpile rhetoric.

And for the record, I definitely think Twlight belongs here, just as much as any of our annoying, arrogant asses, and hope she changes her mind.

[ 17. June 2016, 15:17: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Rape. Apparently they do it differently in America.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I guess one of the reasons being oddly singled out and confronted about my, er, three post contribution to a dog pile ...

Does this mean me?

If so, I said "WTF?" to your "Thank you" response to Soror Magnum because I think it's extremely unfair that she was so quickly forgiven and Twilight was not. I wasn't "confronting" you about three posts, just that one. The dogpile remark was addressed to everyone piling on.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Yeah, I realise me thinking someone directly quoting me and directly asking a question might be, y' know, direct is just nuts.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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I didn't say you were nuts. I clarified my post.

If you want to feel picked on, go right ahead. I don't give a flying fuck about your feelings at this point. After years of being picked on in ways that far exceeded anything aimed at you on these boards, Twilight finally left. You're still here, and an Admin to boot. So I'm not really going to concern myself with your thin skin.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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The point is not my skin, the point is the flip flops. For a very, very long time, people who challenged the dogpiile ethos were treated like they were challenging the Ship entire. Wasn't just me, I just remember examples from my own experience better than others.

Maybe I just think at some point those of us who did try to speak up deserve some sort of," maybe rather than being a bunch of hysterical whiners, some of you all might have had a point about the dogplie thing."

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yes, the comments Soror Magnum made afterward were inexcusable, but I personally went so visceral after the pole dancing thing I couldn't even see it.

I missed one of the most important elements as well. I had disagreed with Twilight, but was nowhere near visceral but I just missed it anyway. This community generally does a reasonable job of policing itself but this particular omission seems weird.

People are shouting about other things, the thread waxes and wanes, someone made a deliberately nasty comment about a family member's mental illness but so what, we'll all move on and have fun elsewhere.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
For a very, very long time, people who challenged the dogpiile ethos were treated like they were challenging the Ship entire. Wasn't just me, I just remember examples from my own experience better than others.

Maybe I just think at some point those of us who did try to speak up deserve some sort of," maybe rather than being a bunch of hysterical whiners, some of you all might have had a point about the dogplie thing."

But I'm not against dogpiling. I just think Soror Magnum deserved it at least as much as Twilight did, maybe more.
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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I think she deserved being reamed a new one for that crack, so why did you not do that?

I'm just gonna say it, I think you latched on to my post because you find me less intimidating than she, or some of the other dogpilers. That is entirely my fault. I fully intend to be much more intimidating in future.

As for dogpiling, I'm not really against it either. For one thing it makes great reading. What I have always hated was that whole "If you challenge the dogpile [ by saying someone was being unfair, by protesting specific invective, by calling the dogpilers a bunch of vindictive bastards] You Don't Get Hell" bullshit that flourished for a while. Some people who actually had big brass balls were told that they were weak and soft and un- unrestful-- as if challenging a wagon circle isn't unrestful-- and that has always bothered the SJW in me. Especially since I suspect we lost some good ones while that was going on.

And now that I've hissed about it, it probably won't bother me any more. Glad I finally said it, though.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think she deserved being reamed a new one for that crack, so why did you not do that?

I'm just gonna say it, I think you latched on to my post because you find me less intimidating than she, or some of the other dogpilers. That is entirely my fault. I fully intend to be much more intimidating in future.

Oh please. I latched on to your post because you thanked Soror Magnum.

Good luck with the intimidating thing.

quote:
As for dogpiling, I'm not really against it either. For one thing it makes great reading. What I have always hated was that whole "If you challenge the dogpile [ by saying someone was being unfair, by protesting specific invective, by calling the dogpilers a bunch of vindictive bastards] You Don't Get Hell" bullshit that flourished for a while. Some people who actually had big brass balls were told that they were weak and soft and un- unrestful-- as if challenging a wagon circle isn't unrestful-- and that has always bothered the SJW in me. Especially since I suspect we lost some good ones while that was going on.

And now that I've hissed about it, it probably won't bother me any more. Glad I finally said it, though.

I'm glad you got that off your chest. How many years has it been?
Posts: 24428 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Marty, if you're out there, I'm totally identifying with what you've said about tangenting into philosophy, because while I am not really invested in starting a dogpile on SM at the moment, I see my comment about reaming her a new one as a great start for one.Maybe what starts a dogpile in the first place is us simply explaining and reexplaining and rereexplaining stuff we are no longer particularly upset about, while still describing the upsetness.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think she deserved being reamed a new one for that crack, so why did you not do that?

I'm just gonna say it, I think you latched on to my post because you find me less intimidating than she, or some of the other dogpilers. That is entirely my fault. I fully intend to be much more intimidating in future.

Oh please. I latched on to your post because you thanked Soror Magnum.

Good luck with the intimidating thing.

quote:
As for dogpiling, I'm not really against it either. For one thing it makes great reading. What I have always hated was that whole "If you challenge the dogpile [ by saying someone was being unfair, by protesting specific invective, by calling the dogpilers a bunch of vindictive bastards] You Don't Get Hell" bullshit that flourished for a while. Some people who actually had big brass balls were told that they were weak and soft and un- unrestful-- as if challenging a wagon circle isn't unrestful-- and that has always bothered the SJW in me. Especially since I suspect we lost some good ones while that was going on.

And now that I've hissed about it, it probably won't bother me any more. Glad I finally said it, though.

I'm glad you got that off your chest. How many years has it been?

Wait, you said you definitely, positively were not singling me out, and that me thinking so was nucking futz. Now you are saying you were.

What was particularly upsetting about me thanking SM for detaching that brilliant, insightful video by a genius comedian from whatever mind fuck she had going on at the time? As weird it might strike you, my post at that point was more about protecting Maria Bamford's good name than it was about SM at all.

Since you didn't reply to my direct "WTF did you read?" Query, then denied you were talking to me at all, then after a half a page FINALLY admitted something I said tripped your wire, I now wonder why you just didn't answer my question in the first place? Would have saved a lot of time.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No, what you wear/do/go/drive clearly has been shown over history to have nothing to do with whether you are raped or not. (Nuns in their habits have been raped.) All a man's problems with his sex drive and abuse thereof reside solely, always, and forever until the end of time, with him and him alone. Being raped, accosted, groped, or catcalled is never the fault of the victim and always the fault of the perp, and it is important to never give an inch on this ever again.

You've got two things muddled here. This--"Being raped, accosted, groped, or catcalled is never the fault of the victim and always the fault of the perp," is obviously true. Like Duh. Nothing the victim did or could do would justify the least evil action of the perp. (I'm taking a break at work and had better not paint the gloriously over-the-top scenario that entered my head as an example of "still not asking for it.")

But your other sentence "what you wear/do/go/drive clearly has been shown over history to have nothing to do with whether you are raped or not" no, this is not in fact true. PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU'ALL FLAME ME.

Certain clothing/actions/places are more likely to mark a human being (of either sex) out as a potential victim. Being drunk, frequenting certain neighborhoods, walking in an uncertain, I-might-be-lost way... this are red flags to muggers, rapists, etc.

We rightly teach our children (of both sexes) to avoid them IF POSSIBLE (which it isn't always-- (I walk this way because I have connective tissue problems; I live in this neighborhood and must walk in it; I am on medication (or have had a drink spiked) and appear drunk as a result.

There are also those who consider these precautions and say to themselves, "I refuse to change any of my choices just because some evil perp might get me--I insist on my personal freedoms." That is a valid choice as well and incurs no guilt or blame, even if everything goes badly wrong five minutes later.

It's true that taking precautions is a game of minimizing and not eliminating risk. Those who refuse to take any precautions whatsoever are making a valid choice and deserve no blame. Those others who do take precautions are also making a valid choice and deserve no blame. Those who teach such precautions to their children, students, etc. are merely trying to protect them, and as long as they themselves refuse to victim-blame under any circumstances, they deserve no blame either.

The only one who does deserve blame is the perp. And I'm sorry (this to the thread at large), but I don't think it's mostly a matter of ignorance to be remedied by education. Those who rape know they are doing wrong, regardless of whether they call it by that name or not. They simply refuse to change their evil choices. What is needed is not more information provided to them, but effective motivation. What form that motivation might take is very difficult to imagine.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Kelly: Your "thank you" post was my jumping-off point. If I had it to do over, I'd put in a paragraph break before the remark about the dogpile to make that more clear. I didn't deny I was talking to you at all. I said the dogpile bit was addressed more generally. I haven't said you're nutz or futz.

I don't like that SM's meanness is portrayed as a temporary mind fuck and quickly forgiven, when it has driven off a long-time shipmate. I think the treatment Twilight received deserves more care here than Maria Bamford's good name.

I didn't respond to your "WTF did you read?" query because I had other stuff to do and just didn't get to it. When I got back to this thread, it had moved on.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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You know LC, that sort of holds, except when it doesn't. And it leads to the thinking about what you can do to not put yourself at risk. Such that it you do take all of the suggested precautions and safety steps and still get attacked and raped, you then have to think of what additional thing you might have done. This is a difficult thinking trap.

Better is the thinking that there are are some special evil people who are rapists, and that this is no where near the number who are not. They are a minority. To large a minority, but a minority. And that these evil people need to be fully blamed, as we all agree, and that if we can do anything to influence even a few of these people to not do this evil, we should: We have to challenge anything that supports the evil. The behaviour of those attacked, what they wear and what they do etc is not part of that support of the evil. And we mustn't ever conflate that with the evil.

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\_(ツ)_/

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
You know LC, that sort of holds, except when it doesn't. And it leads to the thinking about what you can do to not put yourself at risk. Such that it you do take all of the suggested precautions and safety steps and still get attacked and raped, you then have to think of what additional thing you might have done. This is a difficult thinking trap.

I think you're leaving out the part where she said the point is to minimize risk while recognizing that you won't eliminate it. I do think about not putting myself at risk, and I'm going to keep right on doing that.

quote:
Better is the thinking that there are are some special evil people who are rapists, and that this is no where near the number who are not. They are a minority. To large a minority, but a minority. And that these evil people need to be fully blamed, as we all agree, and that if we can do anything to influence even a few of these people to not do this evil, we should: We have to challenge anything that supports the evil. The behaviour of those attacked, what they wear and what they do etc is not part of that support of the evil. And we mustn't ever conflate that with the evil.
I don't think she is conflating the two. If you recognize that there are evil people out there, you're not taking responsibility for their behavior if you decide to take precautions against being subject to their behavior.
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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Part of the issue is the macho culture, the desire to be seen to be a "real man". Which lends itself to a real obvious comeback (that should work with the jocks at least):

"What, the only way you could get some is to force yourself on someone?". Even better if they pick on someone drunk, or use drugs to spike drinks. "You couldn't even physically overpower someone, and had to get them unconscious first?" Yeah, those are real butch, macho men there ...

Kick 'em in the ego. Might not hurt like getting kicked in the nuts, but being known as the jock who could only get "20 minutes of action" by forcing himself on someone lasts a lifetime.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32184 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I don't think she is conflating the two. If you recognize that there are evil people out there, you're not taking responsibility for their behavior if you decide to take precautions against being subject to their behavior.

You are probably correct; it's probably my perspective, not your's or her's. --From the perspective of knowing people who have been attacked and understanding how they struggle to sort out what they might have done to have avoided being attacked. It's a nasty thought process, and weirdly seems to involve almost trying to find something they were in control of in an attack so they can prevent a future risk.

I have thought the parallel is apt to the question post cyclist-car collision: "was the cyclist wearing a helmet?", or car-pedestrian: "were they texting/wearing ear phones (or otherwise distracted)?". When the real issue is that drivers need to stop hitting people with their cars.

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\_(ツ)_/

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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You can't take the thinking processes of a recently-attacked victim of rape and use those as the foundation for a logical claim. Of course a rape victim is going to seek something, anything, in his/her control that could have/should have/would have prevented the attack. That isn't logic, that's human emotion. Cancer patients do the same. My sister has spent way too much time agonizing about what she might have done to "cause" her cancer, and yet she is Miss Totally-Healthy-Poster-Child and her cancer is a rare one specifically known for being as unlikely as getting hit by a meteor.

There is simply nothing she could have done to prevent it. In the case of rape victims, there is simply nothing they SHOULD have done to prevent it (100% of the time) and generally nothing they COULD have done, either. A rapist's gonna rape, and virtually all of them are extremely capable of finding victims they can overpower in places that ought to have been safe.

So why do victims think this way? Because of a well-known human quirk whereby we strongly prefer to think we are in control of what happens to us, even when the universe has just made it painfully obvious that we aren't. Most of us would rather do anything, even blame ourselves for an evil committed against us, than admit that we had no control over the situation then, would have no control over the situation if it happened again in the future, and therefore we are not safe.

This is also what lies behind a lot of victim-blaming. If we (general we) blame the victim for doing or not doing something, we implicitly reassure ourselves that we will never undergo the same horrific experience, since we would never (fill in the blank with ridiculous supposedly-blamable action).

It takes a hell of a lot of maturity to admit that we are not actually in control of our own safety, and never can be. Most people never reach that point, even when they haven't just been put through a horrifying experience.

And so we blame ourselves and others, and search for control...

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

The only one who does deserve blame is the perp. And I'm sorry (this to the thread at large), but I don't think it's mostly a matter of ignorance to be remedied by education. Those who rape know they are doing wrong, regardless of whether they call it by that name or not. They simply refuse to change their evil choices. What is needed is not more information provided to them, but effective motivation. What form that motivation might take is very difficult to imagine.

Not all rape is the same. Date rape, spousal rape, those can be reduced. Changing the culture to where those are not considered OK is possible. Education isn't a formal curriculum only, example and culture teach also. We like to pretend that people are evil or good, it is easier. And whilst those people do exist, most of us live in the grey. Most "good" people are good out of circumstance, at least in part. Good by what society accepts. And that can be adjusted.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17089 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged



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