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Source: (consider it) Thread: I don't want to go to your wedding
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In the Orthodox church I am told that only priests are allowed to go into the sanctuary behind the altar rail. I assume this means they do their own vacuuming, plumbing repair, etc.

No one is allowed in the altar who does not have a purpose for being there. Since women are not clergy they don't have that reason to be there. Some of the more girl-cooties-fearing Orthodox don't even let them clean. You can be sure that a women's monastery, the nuns will be cleaning in the altar.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Actually, the comparison of Forward in Faith to patriarchy isn’t right.

They follow the vast majority of Christians in seeing women’s gifts and callings as distinctive.

They’re not against women’s ministry but against women’s presbyteral ministry – priests are servants – F in F don’t want to reduced women to the status of servants.

That's not what those of us looking in see - and that's not what women in those circles tell me they experience. It's all a boys club with clear misogynist tendencies and expressions
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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
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Regarding my own graduations from Universities unnamed, I would not have bothered with the fuss and feathers of the ceremony, Canada Post being good enough for me. But when Mother heard of my plans, or lack of them, for my BA, she burst into tears, me having successfully dodged graduation ceremonies at high school, and I had to go through with it, despite having a stinking cold.

I was wiser at my Master's graduation, and resignedly invited her along, but instead of having her cooing over the whole thing at a restaurant dinner, I insisted on a private dinner at the house I lived in, figuring that Mother would be distracted by two toddlers and a baby obviously to be (my friend was in the 7th month of her third pregnancy - they went on to have SEVEN children). That went well [Ultra confused]

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Even more so than I was before

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by leo
They follow the vast majority of Christians in seeing women’s gifts and callings as distinctive.

It irritates hell out of me when men assume they know what my gifts and callings are because I am a woman. It is true that there are differences between men as a group and women as a group, but there is a huge amount of overlap.

Very few women have the physical strength to be piano-movers, but if a woman has the strength and wants to do it, there is no reason why she shouldn't.

When I was in college, some of the male students told me I had the mind of a man. They thought they were paying me a compliment, but they were actually telling me I was a freak. I don't have the mind of a man; I have the mind of an intelligent woman.

Moo

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by leo
They follow the vast majority of Christians in seeing women’s gifts and callings as distinctive.

It irritates hell out of me when men assume they know what my gifts and callings are because I am a woman. It is true that there are differences between men as a group and women as a group, but there is a huge amount of overlap.

Very few women have the physical strength to be piano-movers, but if a woman has the strength and wants to do it, there is no reason why she shouldn't.

When I was in college, some of the male students told me I had the mind of a man. They thought they were paying me a compliment, but they were actually telling me I was a freak. I don't have the mind of a man; I have the mind of an intelligent woman.

Moo

That's when you need that female piano mover to smack the smug off his face

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I hate weddings - patriarrchy - so don 't go to any.

Hahahahaha

Yes, the man and woman decide to get married, he gives her a $5000 ring, she gives him a big kiss. She decides they're going to have a huge wedding with a rented hall, a catered dinner, a band and a $8000 dress; and her father is going to pay for it. She and her mother plan every last detail and make every decision with any ideas from the groom quickly laughed to the ground.

The big day comes and somewhere in between her grand entrance and the embarrassing vows she's written for the two of them, the pastor might be permitted to say the line, "Who gives this woman in marriage?" to the father. It's about as literal in meaning as her white dress. That's the sum total of your awful patriarchy.

You two are so right together...! It would make a great movie, you know, the ones where they seethe with hatred for each other, right up until the point they realise they're in love...

Seriously, though: While I'm plenty prepared to believe that weddings can perpetrate patriarchy, and may, sometimes, approximate Twilight's caricature, I have not, in my whole life, attended a wedding that is anything like what she describes. It's obviously a fairly traumatic and scarring experience. If it helps at all to restore your faith in humanity, Twilight, I had an $800* ring, a $600 dress, no band, 100 people to a buffet dinner, made all decisions (apart from dress) in concert with fiancee, with $1000 dollars provided by each set of parents and the rest coming from our own pockets. We were graduate students at the time, so the pockets weren't very deep. (I know, anecdata...)

I wore a white dress, which I had a 'literal' right to do, according to your styling. Though I'd have worn blue if I felt like it - or purple, or whatever. The whole virginity thing isn't important to me now, but it was at the time. And you'd better freaking believe no-one asked my father if he was giving me away! I had lived 600 miles away from 'home' for five years by that point - I was well and truly off his hands. Nor did anyone ceremonially unveil me, seeing as I'm not a painting, or a slab of granite, or a piece of merchandise (yeah, I see the patriarchy in that bit).

*That's NZD we're talking about - edging ever closer to parity with yours but at about 50 USC at the time I married.

The kind I described is the kind my husband's eight sisters had and the kind my cousin and her daughters had, but then they're all millionaires.

I, on the other hand eloped the first time and had a church wedding the second time, where I wore a blue dress that cost $19.99 and had 30 guests to a sit down dinner paid for by me with my minimum wage salary.

I'm also the only woman I know who has been married twice and never had an engagement ring of any kind -- and not because I said I didn't want one.

My point to Leo (and you) being that I've experienced all kinds of weddings and still don't see the horrid example of patriarchy in them. In fact what I see is just the opposite. A woman-thing done her way in the majority of cases, whether it be opulent or simple.

[ 30. September 2017, 16:52: Message edited by: Twilight ]

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
It irritates hell out of me when men assume they know what my gifts and callings are because I am a woman. ...

Ahh-men, and thank you, Moo.

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I'm not dead yet.

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Brenda Clough
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A vast swathe of humanity would benefit from meeting my daughter. She's a US Army major. After she's done with you, you will know what a woman can do. And if you didn't vote against Obamacare, you might even have the medical attention you'll need.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Actually, the comparison of Forward in Faith to patriarchy isn’t right.

They follow the vast majority of Christians in seeing women’s gifts and callings as distinctive.

They’re not against women’s ministry but against women’s presbyteral ministry – priests are servants – F in F don’t want to reduced women to the status of servants.

That's not what those of us looking in see - and that's not what women in those circles tell me they experience. It's all a boys club with clear misogynist tendencies and expressions
I recently chatted with a local A-C vicar. He is very much in favour of women's ministry. He was a curate when the first ordination of women took place in this Diocese and his vicar actually banned him from attending! Fortunately he stuck up two fingers at said vicar (metaphorically I think) and went anyway.

[ 30. September 2017, 17:06: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by leo
They follow the vast majority of Christians in seeing women’s gifts and callings as distinctive.

It irritates hell out of me when men assume they know what my gifts and callings are because I am a woman. It is true that there are differences between men as a group and women as a group, but there is a huge amount of overlap.

Very few women have the physical strength to be piano-movers, but if a woman has the strength and wants to do it, there is no reason why she shouldn't.

When I was in college, some of the male students told me I had the mind of a man. They thought they were paying me a compliment, but they were actually telling me I was a freak. I don't have the mind of a man; I have the mind of an intelligent woman.

Moo

I said' the vast majority of Xians' - over half of those are women.

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RooK

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
They follow the vast majority of Christians in seeing women’s gifts and callings as distinctive.
I said' the vast majority of Xians' - over half of those are women.
Are you trying to argue that women can't be sexist? Or are you just too massively idiotic to realize that the statement is fundamental sexist, and that anybody who believes it is themselves sexist by definition?
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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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Women's and men's roles are shaped by society. This impacts the way women's and men's vocations are seen and understood. I get highly worried that with some the ordination of women is seen as fixing all the injustices in the current situation. It then becomes an excuse for not looking at the ways their own behaviour limits and restricts the roles others may take within the church.

Jengie

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by leo
I said' the vast majority of Xians' - over half of those are women.

Are you saying that the vast majority of Christian women believe that there is no overlap between the gifts and callings of women and the gifts and callings of men? AFAIK I don't know any Christian women who believe this.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by leo
I said' the vast majority of Xians' - over half of those are women.

Are you saying that the vast majority of Christian women believe that there is no overlap between the gifts and callings of women and the gifts and callings of men? AFAIK I don't know any Christian women who believe this.

Moo

The vast majority of Xians are RC and Orthodox.

These churches teach that women cannot be ordained.

Over 50% s these churche’ members are women.

So, yes. There are women who oppose the OOW

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The vast majority of Xians are RC and Orthodox.

These churches teach that women cannot be ordained.

Over 50% s these churche’ members are women.

So, yes. There are women who oppose the OOW

Correlation is not causation.

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Forward the New Republic

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Over 50% s these churche’ members are women.

I estimate 50% of married people are women.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The vast majority of Xians are RC and Orthodox.
These churches teach that women cannot be ordained.
Over 50% s these churche’ members are women.
So, yes. There are women who oppose the OOW

You take it for granted that all RC and Orthodox women agree with their church in this matter.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There are women who oppose the OOW

...and every last one of them is sexist. Just like you, you giant logic-resistant bubo.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The vast majority of Xians are RC and Orthodox.

These churches teach that women cannot be ordained.

Over 50% s these churche’ members are women.

So, yes. There are women who oppose the OOW

I know plenty of RC women who agree with their church's line that priests must be male. None of them would say anything at all like this earlier quote from you:

quote:
priests are servants – F in F don’t want to reduced women to the status of servants.
but would instead talk about the priest standing in persona Christi and about how maleness was part of that.
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Cod
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# 2643

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
There was a full bottle of Johnny Walker Red on each table at the start of the night. My wife and I left at the first available opportunity (our signature style) ...

There was a bottle of Johnny Walker Red on each table and you guys bailed?!? [Disappointed]
My piss has a nicer colour and probably a better flavour.

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Go ahead, do a taste test.
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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
# 2349

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW to Cod:
Go ahead, do a taste test.

On the rocks, or straight up?
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Wow. This thread really went off (as in a party going off) didn't it.

I've tried to resist posting this, but I have terrible impulse control. Whenever I see this thread pop up as "I don't want to go ..." I am driven to sing the Elvis Costello song 'I don't want to go to Chelsea.'

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Human

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Oh, my dear God. I think exactly the same thing every time I see the title.

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mousethief (paraphrase)
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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I always think of the song that begins, "Please Mr.Custer, I don't wanna go."
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There are women who oppose the OOW

...and every last one of them is sexist. Just like you, you giant logic-resistant bubo.
How am I sexist just because I explain somone else's view?

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The vast majority of Xians are RC and Orthodox.

These churches teach that women cannot be ordained.

Over 50% s these churche’ members are women.

So, yes. There are women who oppose the OOW

I know plenty of RC women who agree with their church's line that priests must be male. None of them would say anything at all like this earlier quote from you:

quote:
priests are servants – F in F don’t want to reduced women to the status of servants.
but would instead talk about the priest standing in persona Christi and about how maleness was part of that.

Nor should they - F in F is Anglican, RCs aren't.

--------------------
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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It's probably best not to try to explain someone else's view, especially with this particular Dead Horse!

A couple of relatively young women at Our Place are opposed to OOW (on theological grounds, AIUI). I respect their views, though I cannot understand them or share them, and I believe they respect mine in return. That said, we carry on together with being The Church in our parish.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Getting back to the subject of weddings, I see that the collapse of Monarch Airlines in the UK has affected one couple planning to get married in Gran Canaria, according to BBC News:

quote:
Alan Jee was due to get married in Gran Canaria on Saturday and arrived at Gatwick airport with 30 members of his family.

"I have spent £12,000 on my wedding and now I can't even go and get married," he said. "I am gutted, absolutely gutted, and my missus is in tears, an emotional wreck."

A shame, yes, of course - but the Marriage is more important than the Wedding, no? Hopefully, they'll survive the ordeal, perhaps going through a less-expensive ceremony here, and then live happily ever after.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Getting back to the subject of weddings

I approve and endorse this message.

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Forward the New Republic

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Destination weddings are full of the most awful peril. It is tons easier and cheaper, always, to get married in the church near your home. The notion of going to St. Lucia, or Napa (where my sister had hers) is madness.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Bishops Finger
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Yes, the daughter of one of my former crewmates went to some Foreign Part to get married, at enormous expense of £££.

My crewmate came back with tales of a beach too windy for the ceremony to be held thereupon, raw sewage coming out of the hotel taps, faulty paperwork that wasn't accepted in the UK as proof of marriage, etc. etc.

I'm happy to report, however, that the happy couple rose to the occasion, and are still together (with about 6 kidz now, I believe)!

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Destination weddings are full of the most awful peril.

I'd argue that it's a wedding that is orders of magnitude more perilous than any destination.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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So now I'm thinking of a new trend of Extreme Weddings.

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Forward the New Republic

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So now I'm thinking of a new trend of Extreme Weddings.

New?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Most of those aren't extreme, they're themed. Extreme is zip-wiring over an active volcano.

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Forward the New Republic

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The vast majority of Xians are RC and Orthodox.

These churches teach that women cannot be ordained.

Over 50% s these churche’ members are women.

So, yes. There are women who oppose the OOW

I know plenty of RC women who agree with their church's line that priests must be male. None of them would say anything at all like this earlier quote from you:

quote:
priests are servants – F in F don’t want to reduced women to the status of servants.
but would instead talk about the priest standing in persona Christi and about how maleness was part of that.

The official Roman Catholic line speaks of priest as servant.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Perhaps you missed my subtle direction earlier. Weddings, please, and their related enormities. Pretty certain the role of priests belongs on a different board.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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I assisted backstage at a colossal wedding at our church, some years ago. Five bridesmaids, plus the bride, gathered in one of the rooms to dress. Alas, they had each brought a bottle. Six different horrible liqueurs, creme de menthe, Bailey's Irish cream, and so on. They passed these around and around and then tossed the empties into the wastepaper basket. Just imagining the witch's brew in their tummies makes me queasy. I was able to get them lined up to reel down the aisle, but the Lord alone knows what the reception was like. After that (the sight of the wastepaper basket was enough!) we got a no-liquor policy on the church campus.

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Hopefully they saved the [Projectile] for the reception (or the wedding-night bed.... [Snigger] ).

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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They didn't do it on the sanctuary carpet, which is all I cared about. We have wall-to-wall around the altar area, to hide the panel in the floor that covers the immersion baptism pool.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Most of those aren't extreme, they're themed. Extreme is zip-wiring over an active volcano.

Back in the '60/'70s, IIRC, when marriage practices in the US were loosening up, there was a couple who had a sky-diving wedding--as in, their clergy jumped with them, and the vows were done in mid-air. I presume their witnesses were also there.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Now that's what I'm talking about.

Next stop, Pamplona.

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Forward the New Republic

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Vis-a-vis brides or grooms who are intoxicated: in the UK being drunk during the ceremony can be grounds for annulment with the reasoning that excess alcohol can bring the whole issue of true/informed consent into question.

In layman's terms: if you absolutely MUST have a drink before your wedding, are you sure the wedding is the right thing for you?

30 years ago the vicar of the parish where I worked refused to marry a couple because the groom was clearly smashed and incoherent.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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I wish this couple had gone for Pamplona. It would have added some atmosphere.

I went. It was cold. Also watching endless montages of someone else’s family photos is not my idea of thrilling entertainment (at least four videos – they’ve now all melded into one dreary fuzz – of a good ten minutes each). The only bit that broke through the monotony with a helping of distinct annoyance was in the series “my girlfriends” where bizarrely none of the people shown were actually close enough friends to be in the room on her wedding day. And then up pops a photo of Bridezilla and assorted other guests of the female persuasion at MY wedding. She’s offended all her own friends so my friends were called on to sub. The photo went by rather quickly so I’m not 100% sure, but I think there was at least one person on there she’s no longer speaking to. I was Cross™.

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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But was the dinner good?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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At my church the clergy have a rule: the marriage license has to be there. This rule was promulgated after some awful incident that was before my time, thank God, so I don't know the details. No license, no ceremony.
And thus at a wedding a few years ago, when the groom reported that he had left the license on the kitchen table, the rector stuck in his toes and refused to budge, even in the face of a churchful of guests and the entire bridal party. However, the reception was going to be in the undercroft. So the solution was simple -- everyone went downstairs and ate and drank and partied, having a wonderful time. The groom had to get into his car and drive back through traffic to fetch the license. He returned with the proper document, the happy congregation piled back upstairs into the pews, and the reception concluded with the actual ceremony. Everyone happy except, possibly, the groom, but one must hope that he had compensations.

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
At my church the clergy have a rule: the marriage license has to be there. This rule was promulgated after some awful incident that was before my time, thank God, so I don't know the details. No license, no ceremony.

I've always made sure we have it at least by the time of the wedding rehearsal, if not sooner.
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
But was the dinner good?

IJ

So-so. The starter was average; main course actually rather pleasant; cheese and dessert not bad but nothing special and I don’t really like pièce montée (French choux pastry dessert traditionally served at weddings – very common but I am far from alone in finding it too sweet and rich for the end of a large meal).

The wine was not bad either but I am am present under doctor’s orders and thus couldn’t survive the interminable slide show by drinking myself into a stupor. [Roll Eyes]

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Actually, living in France, and not being allowed to drink wine, sounds like a form of Purgatory, so you have my deepest sympathy.

[Frown]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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