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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Thanks, guys!
I'm used to crossing oneself at the end of the Gloria Patri, because when the Spirit is mentioned, it's now a reference to the Holy Trinity. At least that's what I've always been told - nothing to do with the first lines coming from the Gospels. I'm also used to bowing at "receive our prayer" and of course at the Name of Jesus; I've also seen bowing at "we worship you" - and now that you mention it, I've seen bowing at the beginning.
I think you're talking about the Gloria in Excelsis, rather than the Gloria Patri ("Glory to God in the highest"/"Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit").
Traditional practice is to bow at the Gloria Patri ("Glory to the Father") and to stand at the Sicut Erat ("as it was in the beginning") at the end of canticles and psalms. The Gloria Patri is generally used at offices, rather than at the Eucharist.
In the Gloria in Excelsis (generally used at the Eucharist), traditional (and now somewhat old-fashioned) practice would indeed have you crossing yourself at the trinitarian invocation at the end, along with a bow at the name of Jesus and "receive our prayer". I have seen bowing at "we worship you", but I think it's probably an incorrect assumption that we should mirror the bow during the creed ("who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified").
I don't think I've seen people bowing at the beginning of the Gloria in Excelsis.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Why is the deacon sometimes blessed by the...um, celebrant before s/he goes to proclaim the Gospel? Doesn't her or his ordination give him/her everything s/he needs to proclaim the Gospel? No other participant in the service gets the celebrant's blessing before doing their thing. The only reason I can think of is the importance of the Gospel proclamation in the liturgy - and the only other participants in the service doing something so important are Communion administrators, who will have just received the Sacrament - blessing enough.
You could just as easily ask why we receive a blessing at the end of Mass when we've all received the gifts of the Holy Ghost through Confirmation. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Traditionally, in a Solemn High Mass, the subdeacon is blessed after reading/singing the Epistle; the deacon is blessed before reading/singing the Gospel. Why the diaconal blessing has hung on through changes of rites, while the subdiaconal one has withered away, I'm not sure. I imagine it's a function of the Gospel being the core of the faith. The words which are said over the deacon by the celebrant are : "The LORD be in thy heart and upon thy lips, that thou mayest worthily and fitly proclaim His Gospel: in the Name of the FATHER, and of the SON and + of the HOLY GHOST."
Note the similarity to a similar form of words used in Confession...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
I don't know if this makes any difference, but I happened by the church in Huntsville today, and I noticed that on the sign board the principle Sunday morning service is billed as "Holy Communion". I seem to have seen around here that HC = low to MOTR, Eucharist = MOTR to high, and Mass = AC.
I may have to just break down and go check them out this week.
In Alabama it's likely that it will be MOTR or slightly lower. In conversation I will use "Holy Communion," "Eucharist," and "Mass" interchangeably--but when I celebrate the ceremonial is Missa Cantata according to Ritual Notes (or as much as my parish will tolerate).
Please do report back if you go; I've never been to St Charles, nor met Fr Victory, and would be curious to know what the place is like!
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The two Anglican parishes in Huntsville are St Charles (APCK), which was MOTR-High the last I heard, and supplements the 1928 BCP from the Missal. The other is Christ Episcopal Church (UECNA), which is MOTR-Low, though the supply priest there might be trying to move things higher (again!)
PD
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
The two Anglican parishes in Huntsville are St Charles (APCK), which was MOTR-High the last I heard, and supplements the 1928 BCP from the Missal. The other is Christ Episcopal Church (UECNA), which is MOTR-Low, though the supply priest there might be trying to move things higher (again!)
PD
It was St. Charles to which I was referring, although I'd like to visit both churches. But I begin my own appointment on Father's Day, so time is limited.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Thanks, guys!
I'm used to crossing oneself at the end of the Gloria Patri, because when the Spirit is mentioned, it's now a reference to the Holy Trinity. At least that's what I've always been told - nothing to do with the first lines coming from the Gospels. I'm also used to bowing at "receive our prayer" and of course at the Name of Jesus; I've also seen bowing at "we worship you" - and now that you mention it, I've seen bowing at the beginning.
I think you're talking about the Gloria in Excelsis, rather than the Gloria Patri ("Glory to God in the highest"/"Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit").
Traditional practice is to bow at the Gloria Patri ("Glory to the Father") and to stand at the Sicut Erat ("as it was in the beginning") at the end of canticles and psalms. The Gloria Patri is generally used at offices, rather than at the Eucharist.
In the Gloria in Excelsis (generally used at the Eucharist), traditional (and now somewhat old-fashioned) practice would indeed have you crossing yourself at the trinitarian invocation at the end, along with a bow at the name of Jesus and "receive our prayer". I have seen bowing at "we worship you", but I think it's probably an incorrect assumption that we should mirror the bow during the creed ("who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified").
Not an incorrect assumption at all. It's straight from the Tridentine rubrics : inclinatio (bow of the head, not a bow from the waist) at "Adoramus te" and at "Gratias agimus tibi".
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Complete tangent, Fr Weber, but apropos your sig: don't you agree that Fr Chantry-Pigg should be the patron saint of Ecclesiantics?
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I think you're talking about the Gloria in Excelsis, rather than the Gloria Patri ("Glory to God in the highest"/"Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit").
Yes, of course; I had a minor brain fart. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Traditional practice is to bow at the Gloria Patri ("Glory to the Father") and to stand at the Sicut Erat ("as it was in the beginning") at the end of canticles and psalms.
(Please excuse the lack of ascription, I get so confused with the coding on multiple quotes on quotes!)
Standing at 'Sicut erat' in the older practice was nothing to do with the Gloria Patri per se. This was about standing for the Chapter (brief reading) that followed the psalms in Lauds and Vespers.
One was, of course, standing in any case for a Gospel canticle, so there would be no change of posture after the bow during 'Glory (be) to the Father..Holy Spirit'.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
1. Do you cross yourself at the beginning of the Gloria in Excelsis? I've seen it done (and it fits the rule of crossing yourself at canticles etc. drawn from Gospel text, such as the Benedictus, Magnificat, and Nunc Dimittis),
The other canticles are gospel texts, and we cross ourselves at the start as we (or at any rate some of us) do at the start of a gospel reading. The Gloria is not a gospel text.
I've never crossed myself at the end, as I learnt my ritual gestures from Vatican 2.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
Standing at 'Sicut erat' in the older practice was nothing to do with the Gloria Patri per se. This was about standing for the Chapter (brief reading) that followed the psalms in Lauds and Vespers.
Sorry, imprecise wording. I meant to say "unbowing" at the Sicut Erat.
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Not an incorrect assumption at all. It's straight from the Tridentine rubrics : inclinatio (bow of the head, not a bow from the waist) at "Adoramus te" and at "Gratias agimus tibi".
Thanks for the correction. I'll clearly have to adopt the practice :-p
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
The Tridentine rubrics (used in EF today) call for bowing at:
the Deo in Gloria in Excelsis Deo
adoramus te
gratias agimus tibi
Iesu Christe (twice)
suscipe deprectaionem nostram
The crosings comes at the end.
These are all mentioned in Ritual Notes, as well.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Complete tangent, Fr Weber, but apropos your sig: don't you agree that Fr Chantry-Pigg should be the patron saint of Ecclesiantics?
Absolutely!
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I'm looking to buy a hassock. I'll be spending a lot of time next year in a chapel where the regulars (all college students) like to kneel on the wooden floor, which severely limits by ability to concentrate on what's going on. Can anyone recommend a good place to buy one? Watra's doesn't have them.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I'm looking to buy a hassock. I'll be spending a lot of time next year in a chapel where the regulars (all college students) like to kneel on the wooden floor, which severely limits by ability to concentrate on what's going on. Can anyone recommend a good place to buy one? Watra's doesn't have them.
Embroider one yourself, why not?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I've taken old couch pillows and recovered them, or made a simple slip cover for them. They're usually stuffed firmer than a bed pillow, so they're about perfect for kneeling when there are no kneelers. I bet you could find one in a thrift store, or perhaps a deep discount retail store. Or even your granny, or someone else's granny.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
A prayer stool takes a lot of the weight from the knees onto the purpose-designed body part. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
A prayer stool takes a lot of the weight from the knees onto the purpose-designed body part.
and is much more comfortable than a hassock IMHO. Especially if there is no bench or prie-dieu against which to lean.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
A prayer stool takes a lot of the weight from the knees onto the purpose-designed body part.
They place too much strain on the ankles, resulting in considerable pain after a few minutes.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I have never seen the point of prayer stools. You might as well just sit down properly and get rid of that intolerable and distracting pain in the ankles. Or am I built differently to other folks?
PD
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
No. You aren't. You're exactly right. They're designed in such a way that the feet have to be stretched out. After a couple of minutes with force placed on them in that angle, they do hurt.
It's a ridiculous invention. Much better would be something like those kneeling office chairs. They keep the knees and bottom in the same relative position to each other as the kneeling stool but because they place the knees at least a foot off the floor, the ankles aren't subjected to the same sort of pressure.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Maybe it depends on the size of your feet. Large ones would tend to push your ankles uncomfortably high. IYSWIM.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Maybe it depends on the size of your feet. Large ones would tend to push your ankles uncomfortably high. IYSWIM.
The height of the ankles itself isn't uncomfortable. Normal kneeling without a kneeling stool allows for this and there is no discomfort, (unless people have bad knees, but that's a different matter). The problem, at least with the kneeling stools that I have encountered, is that the seat is just too low to allow the feet to stand upright (with the toes to the floor and heel in the air, if you follow). So in order to fit your feet under the bum-rest, you have to stretch them out ballerina style. Holding that position with weight on the feet for anything more than a short length of time is painful.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Just what I said. You must have big feet! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Just what I said. You must have big feet!
I'll have you know that my feet are quite proportionate to my height. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
So are everybody's. It depends what proportion.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
So are everybody's. It depends what proportion.
There seems to be the start of innuendo.
I tried prayer stools - we used to have an evening meditation when everyone used them.
I was less uncomfortable by being the odd man out than by the pain of using the stools.
(Size 11 feet. Height 6'5 - all in proportion)
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I wouldn't be without my prayer stool. How do they put weight on the ankles? They raise your bum just high enough to clear them. (I've never thought about it, but I suppose I lay my feet sideways.)
Far more comfortable than full lotus.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I wouldn't be without my prayer stool. How do they put weight on the ankles?
The bum-rest only supports some of the body weight. The knees and ankles take the rest. Granted, with the prayer stool, there is much less weight on the ankles than without, but there is still enough so that, when forced to stretch them out like this and this, it causes pain after a while.
quote:
They raise your bum just high enough to clear them.
As the pictures I just grabbed from googling show, for at least some people, they don't. In kneeling without a stool, I would never have my feet at that angle because it's easier to kneel upright.
quote:
(I've never thought about it, but I suppose I lay my feet sideways.)
I think I'd have the same problem doing that. You're clearly fitter and more flexible than I am.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've used my stool a few times since posting. Actually I leave my ankles in the air and my feet face forward (if you see what I mean) on the floor. But it's for private prayer and that's what I find helpful. Others may not.
(I always take it on Maundy Thursday to use for the vigil.)
PS. It supports all the weight of my upper body.
[ 13. May 2012, 19:41: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I've used my stool a few times since posting. Actually I leave my ankles in the air and my feet face forward (if you see what I mean) on the floor.
Oh my, I completely forgot about this thread's most recent focus, and took that post entirely out of context!
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Actually I leave my ankles in the air and my feet face forward (if you see what I mean) on the floor.
I'm finding that difficult to picture or to test.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Actually I leave my ankles in the air and my feet face forward (if you see what I mean) on the floor.
I'm finding that difficult to picture or to test.
Imagine the noamrl positioon of the feet when kneeling upright, (that is, not sitting on the calves). The toes touch the floor and the feet are roughly perpendicular to the floor, with the ankles in the air and the top of the feet facing forward rather than towards the floor.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
noamrl positioon of the feet
Is this an Orthodox term with which I am unfamiliar? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
Was it noamrl in 19th Century Russia?
No! Is "ecumenical" position.
Is outrage!
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Actually I leave my ankles in the air and my feet face forward (if you see what I mean) on the floor.
I'm finding that difficult to picture or to test.
Feet flat on the floor with the soles of the feet facing upwards (and the front of the feet - the face as I called it - on the floor).
I'm even more confused by feet perpendicular to the floor. Surely they're parallel?
It reminds me of a Thom Gunn poem.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've just clicked as to what Michael means: toes on floor, sole sloping upwards and instep stretched.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I must have funny feet then. Because I find Michael's position more natural, and comfortable, than VenBede's.
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I suppose if I were to kneel with a back and thighs straight up from the knees, I suppose I would lift the ankles, as per the Astley position. (In church the knees are raised by a kneeler.)
But using my prayer stool, my feet are flat on the floor. Maybe it's years of practice.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
noamrl positioon of the feet
Is this an Orthodox term with which I am unfamiliar?
I love my Methodist friends but you really need to get up to speed with the Ecumenical Councils.
Canon XIX 1/2 of the half dozen or so holy fathers gathered at the Holy and Oecumenical Synod of Birkenhead:
quote:
Forasmuch as the description of positions of the feet during the supplication of the Almighty has in sundry places been subject to the passing times and seasons, it seems good to us, for the avoidance of confusion and that all things may be in all places the same, that during these fifty days of Pentecost, the placing of the feet while standing upon the knees shall henceforth be referred to as the "noamrl positioon". If any, having adopted any other phrase or description up until this first day of May in the year of our Lord two thousand and twelve, repent of his mistake, let him retain his position and come to communion as one of the brethren. If any reach such a state of mindlessness as to adopt such phrase after this first day of May and dare to call it canonical, if he be among the clergy, he shall be deposed, but if he be a layman, let him be anathema.
(Much more edifying than, 'Sorry: it was a typo', don't you think?)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Is it customary to have the congregation stand for a reading from the Gospel at Morning or Evening Prayer? What about at Eucharistic services with really long pericopes? (Palm Sunday comes to mind.)
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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ElaineC
Shipmate
# 12244
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Posted
Until our new Vicar arrived I had never stood for the Gospel in Morning or Evening Prayer(in 50ish years of churchgoing). We now stand for the Gospel in all services both the formal and informal.
Palm Sunday was the exception.
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Music is the only language in which you cannot say a mean or sarcastic thing. John Erskine
Posts: 464 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
Is it customary to have the congregation stand for a reading from the Gospel at Morning or Evening Prayer? What about at Eucharistic services with really long pericopes? (Palm Sunday comes to mind.)
[1] No, but I know a church which does. [2] Standing is supposed to be the rule, but many churches are sensible about this. Either allow those who wish to sit, or suggest all sit throughout, or stand simply for the final passage (crucifixion).
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Mama Thomas
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# 10170
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Posted
I don't think it is proper to stand for a lesson from the New Testament that happens to be from one of the Gospels at Morning or Evening Prayer.
I've seen, to my horror, an Evening Prayer service where the officiants trotted out a fully vested deacon to read the lesson from Gospel as if we were at a Mass. Very disconcerting.
Using the Eucharisitic lectionary for the office seems to confuse many officiants. Sometimes they'll even use the Order of the Eucharist, Old Testament, Psalm, Epistle, Gospel even at a celebration of the Office. I suppose this comes from being unfamilar with the Office, which in the BCP is Psalm, OT Lesson, Canticle, New Testament Lesson, Canticle, or CW, Psalm, Canticle, Lesson, Lesson, responsory, Gospel Canticle (which should be said standing. I was taken aback once when the priest told the congo to remain seated for the Magnificat).
Some churches have hybrids of a service that's half office, half Mass, but in those I've usually seen people stay seated for the New Testament Lesson, even if it is from one of the first four books of it.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
Is it customary to have the congregation stand for a reading from the Gospel at Morning or Evening Prayer? What about at Eucharistic services with really long pericopes? (Palm Sunday comes to mind.)
In my experience it's customary to be seated for readings in the Office.
Since the Passion is a Eucharistic Gospel reading, it would be appropriate to stand (with a short pause for kneeling after the death of our Lord is narrated). Anyone who is going to have difficulties standing can stay seated, of course.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I have never seen the point of prayer stools. You might as well just sit down properly and get rid of that intolerable and distracting pain in the ankles. Or am I built differently to other folks?
I'm with you on this. Best seating for me would be a sturdy chair. I'd love one of the white-oak chairs the guests sit on in Saint Meinrad Archabbey's church in Indiana: very solid (no creaking, no movement), and somehow well shaped to provide a comfortable sit even though it's a hard material. Good book-racks on the side, too.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
I've never known prayer stools used for corporate worship, where I don't think they'd work very well (except for Taize style stuff). I find them the best thing for me for private prayer.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Transferred from the closed Prayers of Intercession thread:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
At High Mass for Ascension Day at St Gabriel's Pimlico this evening the prayers of intercession were omitted.
I don't think I've ever been to mass/eucharist/holy communion at any anglican church whether high, MOTR or low and found the intercessions omitted. Is this usual practice? If so, when?
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Did the Eucharistic Prayer contain some intercessory material? If so, it would not be unheard of to omit the intercession on a weekday, but in my experience, it is pretty uncommon. The danger with the Eucharistic Prayers which have some intercessory material in them is that you end up doing the same thing twice.
PD
quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
Common Worship omits the Intercessions on various occasions - or rather substitutes some other material such as the Thanksgiving for Baptism on the Feast of the Baptism (page 170)
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Common Worship is inconsistent in that some eucharistic prayers include (very brief) intercessions; others don't. I understand that it is common at RC weekday masses to omit the prayers of the people because intercession is always included in the EP. 1662 and similar rites always demanded the 'prayer for the whole state of Christ's Church', but in 1549 (and in the Scottish liturgy, I think) this was part of a long, long prayer equivalent to the Canon of the Mass.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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