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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Random Liturgical Questions (answers on a postcard, please)
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
It seems to be common in Europe; I've never known them skipped in the US.
['page-turn': I'm referring to RCs skipping the intercessions at daily Mass]
[ 18. May 2012, 13:00: Message edited by: Hart ]
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Adrian1
Shipmate
# 3994
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Posted
Yes the 1549 Canon consisted of Prayer for the Church + Consecration + Prayer of Oblation. It's a very good arrangement, although it makes for a rather long prayer. At plain celebrations on weekdays I sometimes omit the Prayer for the Church and all that follows up to the Sursum Corda, but then go one to use Consecration + Prayer of Oblation as a single uninterrupted prayer. The Prayer of Thanksgiving is then used invariably on those occasions as the post communion, its normal alternative having already been said.
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
Posts: 1986 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Transferred from the closed Prayers of Intercession thread:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
At High Mass for Ascension Day at St Gabriel's Pimlico this evening the prayers of intercession were omitted.
I don't think I've ever been to mass/eucharist/holy communion at any anglican church whether high, MOTR or low and found the intercessions omitted. Is this usual practice? If so, when?
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Did the Eucharistic Prayer contain some intercessory material? If so, it would not be unheard of to omit the intercession on a weekday, but in my experience, it is pretty uncommon. The danger with the Eucharistic Prayers which have some intercessory material in them is that you end up doing the same thing twice.
PD
quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
Common Worship omits the Intercessions on various occasions - or rather substitutes some other material such as the Thanksgiving for Baptism on the Feast of the Baptism (page 170)
I happened to go to church on Ascension Day and discovered with feelings of relief and delight that the prayers of intercession were omitted (but not the creed or the gloria). I have to admit that it is the part of the service that fills me with boredom and makes me reach for my phone to check texts and Facebook.
At the offertory a basket containing the written prayers dropped into it during the week was placed on the altar in lieu. A very sensible development, I thought.
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sebhyatt
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Well, it was anglocatholic rather than RC, but it did really surprise me not to have intercessions. The eucharistic prayer had no sections that I would have described as being particularly intercessory in the sense that they could have replaced the prayers of the people.
Maybe it was just an omission when the order of service booklet was prepared?! Unfortunately us dreadful members of the choir dashed straight off to the pub before I could ask the Vicar about it.
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SFG
Apprentice
# 17081
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Posted
In today's Tablet there is a letter which includes the words 'if he looks at the calendar for the ordinariate'
Has anyone seen the calendar mentioned?
Is it online?
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SFG:
Is it online?
Have you looked for it online before asking here?
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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SFG
Apprentice
# 17081
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Posted
Yes I have tried, I did not succeed. All I found lists of events.
That is why I asked this as a random quick question , I thought it may interest other people too.
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SFG
Apprentice
# 17081
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Posted
Thank you Clavus and stranger.
The calendar seems a very good one and not too focused on the UK.
I see the Ordo mentions Ordinary Sundays but the Calendar calls them after Trinity.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
So hang on, this lot were in the C of E and using the (very sensible) title of the Roman Rite.
Now they've become Roman Catholics, they are reverting to the usage of the Book of Common Prayer and Common Worship.
If they called them Sundays after Pentecost, they could be in line with both the Tridentine Rite and the dear old ASB.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
So hang on, this lot were in the C of E and using the (very sensible) title of the Roman Rite.
Now they've become Roman Catholics, they are reverting to the usage of the Book of Common Prayer and Common Worship.
Evelyn Waugh's Advice Applies.
[ 21. May 2012, 12:47: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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SFG
Apprentice
# 17081
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Posted
Please tell me! What is his advice ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
The office lessons given in the ordinariate Ordo seem quite long. Certainly longer than the Divine Office.
Does the Ordinariate use the Divine Office or BCP?
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
From memory, in the first volume of Waugh's Sword of Honour trilogy, the narrator at Oxford is warned by his boring cousin to avoid the Anglo Catholic as "they are all sodomites with unpleasant accents".
As an Anglo Catholic gay man I may have a lack of any sense of humour here.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Brideshead Revisited, actually, though the quote is correct as is the setting.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
You're quite right, gallit, Brideshead it is. I find bits of Brideshead wonderful despite a suspicion of pretentiousness, and Waugh may be sending up the boring cousin as much as anything.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Can anyone assist in identifying a religious order? At a local parish church last week, during Mass, a religious was in attendance. He looked like a Franciscan (beard and sandals) but he work a black or navy blue cassock with a red cincture. Anyone know what order that is?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Sometimes I see people in unfamilar habits in church. Once I asked someone what order he was in and he said in an English accent that he belonged to no order, but God told him to wear the habit. Very similar to the time a red-headed man kitted out like a Hasidic Jew who after Mass told me he had been a once been Carmelite in Mexico City.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SFG:
Does the Ordinariate use the Divine Office or BCP?
We may use either the Divine Office or an approved office based on BCP. The latter is currently only available in PDF form - the
book is due at the end of June.
Posts: 608 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Can you use the Anglican Breviary? It is really good and deserves SOME use.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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jerrytheorganist
Shipmate
# 4720
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Posted
Hi all, I have a quick question.
In a United Methodist installation service we present a stole to new pastor as a "yoke" to the church . blah blah blah,, and so forth take care of the people .. sheep shepherd stuff . . .
OK
So, what is the name of the service where we take the stole off and say you are no longer the pastor . . blah blah go on, get out of here. . . ??
[ 29. May 2012, 01:51: Message edited by: jerrytheorganist ]
Posts: 94 | From: Plainville, Kansas, United States | Registered: Jul 2003
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Sometimes I see people in unfamilar habits in church. Once I asked someone what order he was in and he said in an English accent that he belonged to no order, but God told him to wear the habit. Very similar to the time a red-headed man kitted out like a Hasidic Jew who after Mass told me he had been a once been Carmelite in Mexico City.
That sounds like one of those occasions when one can feel a really large vodka and tonic coming on...
PD
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jerrytheorganist:
Hi all, I have a quick question.
In a United Methodist installation service we present a stole to new pastor as a "yoke" to the church . blah blah blah,, and so forth take care of the people .. sheep shepherd stuff . . .
OK
So, what is the name of the service where we take the stole off and say you are no longer the pastor . . blah blah go on, get out of here. . . ??
I can't speak for Methodism, or indeed for all of Lutheranism, but I can say that the general attitude in Lutheranism is that the stole is a yoke to the Church--capital C--and not to the individual congregation thereof. It is a sign that the person has been ordained to the ministry, and this is not something that ends when one ceases to serve at the congregation to which the pastor is called.
This from the UMC seems to explain a bit about it.
If you are referring to the removal of an ordained cleric from the roster of your denomination, I suppose a common term used is "defrocking," but typically a special service is not held to remove the garments of the ordained ministry.
If you are simply referring to a service at a local church wherein a pastor takes leave of your local church in order to go and serve at another church, then there are many different possible terms: Farewell & Godspeed and Service of Leave-Taking are two that I have encountered. I've never seen a pastor give back a stole at these, though. I suppose if the church had given him/her a symbolic stole of the congregation to use, that it might make sense, but it really doesn't convey the idea of stole=ordained that the General Board of Discipleship from the UMC seems to support at the link above.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
jerrytheorganist
I am sensing you are having difficulty with your current pastor. Is it just you? Or does it include the majority of your congregation? If it involves the congregation, I suggest your leadership consult with your local bishop. Bishops can fairly easily move a minister to another place. If it involves something more serious (like being grossly incompetent or teaching gross heresy or living in gross sin) the bishop will work through the process with your congregation.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jerrytheorganist:
Hi all, I have a quick question.
In a United Methodist installation service we present a stole to new pastor as a "yoke" to the church . blah blah blah,, and so forth take care of the people .. sheep shepherd stuff . . .
OK
So, what is the name of the service where we take the stole off and say you are no longer the pastor . . blah blah go on, get out of here. . . ??
Induction > Deduction or subtraction?
Installation > Uninstallation?
Yours sounds a bit like an expulsion, though it could also be a deliverance ..... (might be mutual for pastor and people...?) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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jerrytheorganist
Shipmate
# 4720
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Posted
The two services are found somewhere in the book of worship but I don't have one of those handy,,,
The installation service is just that, when the pastor is installed in a pastoral relationship with the church which is symbolized by the placing of a stole on the pastor by the head of the SPRC committee.
The (still don't remember the name ) service is a way to say farewell, goodbye, you are released from your pastoral duties to this congregation and then the same person who put the stole on takes it back off, bye bye see you later.
The go away service is usually the last service the pastor preaches and then they get installed at their new church.
So,,, anyone else have a clue what the go away service is?
[ 30. May 2012, 16:48: Message edited by: jerrytheorganist ]
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Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
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Posted
At our church on Tuesday 5 June we are showing the Thanksgiving Service from St Paul's on a big screen, then a Gospel reading, the Peace, Offertory Hymn and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
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Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
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Posted
Sorry - that was for the Jubilee thread!
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Do any of the Lutheran denominations in the USA still have a Eucharistic Prayer that consists of just the Verba?
Do they preserve the old
Preface and Sanctus
Lord's Prayer
Verba
Pax
way of doing things?
Ta!
PD
[ 31. May 2012, 23:24: Message edited by: PD ]
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
I don't know, but if I have to guess, it'll be the LCMS. At least as an option in their book.
Their mission church in Brazil (IELB) follows this exact pattern.
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
I'm on Facebook too!
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Do any of the Lutheran denominations in the USA still have a Eucharistic Prayer that consists of just the Verba?
Do they preserve the old
Preface and Sanctus
Lord's Prayer
Verba
Pax
way of doing things?
Some traditional Lutheran churches in the LC-MS and Wisconsin Synod (maybe some other denoms) still use The Lutheran Hymnal, which has the order you give.
One of the options in the current ELCA book, Evangelican Lutheran Worship, is Preface/Sanctus, Verba, Lord's Prayer.
The Wisconsin Synod hymnal, Christian Worship, has in The Common Service the order Preface/Sanctus, Verba, Pax, Agnus Dei; the Lord's Prayer has already been said at the end of the Prayer of the Church, just before the Sursum Corda.
Setting 3 of the Divine Service in the current LCMS hymnal, Lutheran Service Book, has the order as you have listed it. Other settings add a Prayer of Thanksgiving before the Verba.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Cheers!
I was just wondering whether the traditional form had been completely displaced or whether it is just the pastors around here. I recently passed a comment in a new members class that 1662, like the traditional Lutheran liturgy, placed all the emphasis on the Verba. An ex-Lutheran who was there looked at me as though I had arrived from Mars on the last wagon train, and then proceeded to argue!
PD
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Cheers!
I was just wondering whether the traditional form had been completely displaced or whether it is just the pastors around here. I recently passed a comment in a new members class that 1662, like the traditional Lutheran liturgy, placed all the emphasis on the Verba. An ex-Lutheran who was there looked at me as though I had arrived from Mars on the last wagon train, and then proceeded to argue!
PD
I was very glad to have a chance to put my excessive collection of hymnals to good use. Wish I could have checked the Evangelical Lutheran Synod's hymnal, but I appear to have given it away or sold it. I have no doubt that they used the bare order you listed.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
One of the things I sometimes get into is the similarities between the 1552 Order of Communion in England and Luther's two Orders of 1523 (Latin) and 1526 (German) which both seem to have influenced the 1552 revision. I wish I could get hold of a copy of Bucer's Strassburg (Liturgical) Agenda which I suspect may have had an influence too. Then of course there is Abp. Hermann of Koln's Ordnung of 1546, which gets a lot of 'play time' in certain histories of the BCP. It is another one of those historical things I like to wrap my head around when my parish and my diocese are not bugging me too much.
PD
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jerrytheorganist:
Hi all, I have a quick question.
In a United Methodist installation service we present a stole to new pastor as a "yoke" to the church . blah blah blah,, and so forth take care of the people .. sheep shepherd stuff . . .
OK
So, what is the name of the service where we take the stole off and say you are no longer the pastor . . blah blah go on, get out of here. . . ??
I'm not exactly sure what context you're wanting to use this in, so I may be way off the mark.
For one thing, a local congregation cannot vote to fire the preacher. For another, the ceremony in the BOW is intended for changing pastors, where one is on his/her way out and the new one is on his/her way in. In that case, it's not a confrontation, but simply an acknowledgement of pastoral change.
If you're having problems with your pastor, the first step is the Pastor-Parish Relations Committee. Another good first step is to talk to the pastor directly. If neither of those works, one can then move on to the district superintendent. Around here, all of the DSs will ask if you've talked to the pastor and PPRC, and if you answer no, they'll refer you back to them -- and that is how it should be.
If you can convince the DS that something is amiss, there is a process by which a pastoral change is effected. Sometimes this means that the pastor will stay put until the next regular change in appointments, although mid-year moves are becoming less uncommon in many annual conferences. If it is something dire, such as misappropriation of money, sexual impropriety, etc., it may be immediate. But that is at the discretion of the Bishop, in conversation with the cabinet (all of the DSs, along with a few other Conference staff members).
If the DS decides it's just a personality conflict, you're stuck. The intent will be for the pastor and congregation to work through the problem, rather than running away from it.
In all of it, much responsibility lies on the PPRC. They're the go-betweens, the ones who try to medate between pastor and congregation. It's a tough, thankless job.
(Sorry for the length of this post... It was a rather large postcard.)
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Posted by sebby on a thread now closed:
quote:
Did any shipmates attend or hear about a service on Oak Apple Day (28th May) to celebrate the return of His late Majesty King Charles II and the restoration of the monarchy and the English church in 1660? This was only removed from the BCP with its special readings and propers as recently as 1859.
If so, what was it like?
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
My information says Oak Apple Day was on the 29th, not the 28th, of May. Some of the customs, though go back to pre Christian nature rites. Will have to ask my pastor--he seems to be an expert on English cults.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Apologies - 29th
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Posted by sebby on a thread now closed:
quote:
Did any shipmates attend or hear about a service on Oak Apple Day (28th May) to celebrate the return of His late Majesty King Charles II and the restoration of the monarchy and the English church in 1660? This was only removed from the BCP with its special readings and propers as recently as 1859.
If so, what was it like?
This web page has links to a lot of old prayer books. Any from before 1859 should include it. It usually comes after the psalter and ordinals, between the service for 30th January and the Accession Day service for whoever was king or queen at the time of publication (Victoria was 20th June). If you find yourself in metrical psalms, you've gone too far.
I've never heard of anywhere still using the service. It is just possible it may be celebrated at Great Wishford as part of the Grovely ceremonies. I can't think of any other context where it might still take place. There have been too many other historical events since.
After all, we still commemorate the 11th November, and I think we should, but doubtless a time will come when people no longer see why we should use that date to remember our war dead. There yet remains a residual sense, just about, of Trafalgar Day, but it has faded. There must have been a time when people remembered 18th June as the end of the war against Napoleon.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Enoch beat me to it. It is there in my George I prayer book for 29 May, giving thanks for God's "unspeakable mercies".
I would certainly give thanks for the restoration of the episcopacy and sacramental liturgy (or do I mean liturgically celebrated sacraments?)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Enoch beat me to it. It is there in my George I prayer book for 29 May, giving thanks for God's "unspeakable mercies".
I would certainly give thanks for the restoration of the episcopacy and sacramental liturgy (or do I mean liturgically celebrated sacraments?)
The original impetus was very much more the Restoration of Charles II after the hiatus of what it calls "the Great Rebellion". The restoration of episcopacy and the BCP would have been seen as no more than a consequential benefit.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Fr Raphael
Apprentice
# 17131
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Posted
incense question/s, help please!
How do you make incense less smokey and more smelly (in the best cense of course)
Is it to do with the heat of the coal, and the type of incense?
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've often wondered. If the charcoal isn't hot, there won't be much smell, but there will be smoky fumes when the incense burns out. If you pile on the incense, the charcoal goes out, and you get no smoke.
There's a sermon in there somewhere.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
My bishop insists on high scent:smoke output when he is serving, and requires one or maybe two grains of incense at the most, placed beside rather than on the charcoal. While I generally agree about excessive amounts of incense, I find that placing the incense directly onto the charcoal doesn't make too much of a difference, and at least stops the grains from bouncing around inside the censer.
The above, of course, assumes use of the larger grains of incense and one or two brickets of charcoal. If the tiny-grained variety is used, the necessary adjustment will need to be made. Overfilling the censer with upwards of three pieces of charcoal can also be problematic.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Fr Raphael
Apprentice
# 17131
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Posted
Thanks. Answers often bring more questions with me - sorry!
Michael, The incense I have in mind is like 'Basilica' it is small grains.
I see the spoons for boats are often smaller than tea spoons. Is that deliberate? Is three teaspoons simply too much?
And finally, for now at least, what is a good not smokey but nicely scented incense available in UK?
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Raphael:
I see the spoons for boats are often smaller than tea spoons. Is that deliberate? Is three teaspoons simply too much?
Almost certainly, in my opinion. If you have a larger church, I would suggest two pieces of charcoal at most with just enough incense to cover the recess in the middle of each one. Again, this is based on an assumption: that you use the 2.5 cm diameter brickets, which seem most common. If you use a smaller or larger size, again, you'll need to make adjustments. I prefer the 3.5 cm ones as they last longer, but the enormous ones are too big to light properly without some sort of large flame source, which I suspect most parishes don't have. The very tiny ones seem to be prone to absorbing moisture, then they explode when you try to light them. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
quote:
And finally, for now at least, what is a good not smokey but nicely scented incense available in UK?
Just about anything from the Brookwood Monastery.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
And a link.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Fr Raphael
Apprentice
# 17131
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Posted
Thanks Michael, but I think their fragrances may be more at home in an Orthodox church than a western one.
Correct me though if I am wrong.
They also seem a bit pricey. But I realise that maybe less is used so they may turn out more economical.
Do Hayes and Finch or someone do a good less smokey fine smelling blend?
Posts: 40 | Registered: May 2012
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
The very tiny ones seem to be prone to absorbing moisture, then they explode when you try to light them.
Indeed they do. I had this very problem at an Epiphany procession about three years ago. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
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