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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Homosexuality and Christianity
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Re-reading what I wrote yesterday, I would just like to clarify that it was not either of us who were blackmailed. It was a colleague of Rosie's.
Just so you know. Rosie is, in fact, the only out lesbian on her staff, even though there are several more known to her. And she defies stereotypes, being tiny, elegant and into jewellery.
And yes, Adeodatus, that is is a good addition to the curriculum.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sean
Shipmate
# 51
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Secondly, about teaching stuff in schools. Here's what I'd like included in the syllabus - "Hey kids, some of the people you'll meet in life will be gay. You might like to consider not kicking the sh*t out of them."
How were you planning to assess it? Have someone mince into the classroom and anyone who kicks the shit out of them fails?
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"So far as the theories of mathematics are about reality, they are not certain; so far as they are certain, they are not about reality" - Einstein
Posts: 1085 | From: A very long way away | Registered: May 2001
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
You have respect for Fred Phelps? And you tolerate him?
Not me. Not my Bishop, either. One of our proudest moments was Bishop Peter Coffin standing literally arm-in-arm with Svend Robinson, a prominent gay MP and activist, at an anti-Phelps rally.
(Phelps wimped out on visiting Canada, having not only failed to gain assurances of support, but having been informed by the Ottawa Police of the anti-hate laws here.)
Background - Phelps called Canada the "sperm bank of Satan". With enemies like these, we may be doing something right! (or maybe left.)
[ 21. June 2005, 02:11: Message edited by: Henry Troup ]
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Calindreams
Shipmate
# 9147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sean:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Secondly, about teaching stuff in schools. Here's what I'd like included in the syllabus - "Hey kids, some of the people you'll meet in life will be gay. You might like to consider not kicking the sh*t out of them."
How were you planning to assess it? Have someone mince into the classroom and anyone who kicks the shit out of them fails?
Sean - was this a joke? I would have thought you agreed with anti-bullying education. The thing is, a school child doesn't need to 'mince' to get found out as gay. In fact they don't even have to be gay to bullied for being gay.
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Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore
Posts: 665 | From: Birmingham, England | Registered: Mar 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Phelps called Canada the "sperm bank of Satan". With enemies like these, we may be doing something right!
After an endorsemnet like that I'm almost tempted to emigrate!
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
If it were practical I'd move, just to change the location on my posts. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Another cartoonist on The Gay Agenda (let it load!)
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I want to answer phones in Canada!! - "Hello, Satan's sperm bank. How can I help?"
It reminds me of Julian Clary's quip about James Anderton. Remember James Anderton? - the homophobic Chief Constable of Manchester who claimed Jesus had told him to say that people with AIDS were "swimming around in a cesspool of their own making."
Well, Clary (a very camp gay comedian for those who don't know him) once said, "I have a very close relationship with James Anderton. I call him Jimmy, he calls me Spawn of Satan."
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Thank you for that Laura! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Through my confused, gradually awakening state I hear Radio 4 report that the Co-op bank has just asked Christian Voice to take its account elsewhere. CV's negative attitude towards homosexuality clashes with the Bank's inclusive ethos.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I've even found a link to the BBC story. Trying to think about this rationally (always difficult early in the morning) I am guessing that the Bank has taken this decision for financial reasons. In which case do they feel that public opinion has shifted so much that it would be financially damaging to be linked with a group holding deep anti-gay views? If public opinion really has moved that much then maybe Jersualem is being built in England's green and pleasant land! (IMHO, of course.)
And, anticipating future posters, I don't see this as persecution or an attack on freedom of speech. Presumably a Bank, like any other business, has a right to withdraw its services from a customer at any time. And there are plenty of other Banks out there, so the customer is only slightly inconvenienced.
[ 24. June 2005, 06:50: Message edited by: The Wanderer ]
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Fish Fish
Shipmate
# 5448
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
And, anticipating future posters, I don't see this as persecution or an attack on freedom of speech. Presumably a Bank, like any other business, has a right to withdraw its services from a customer at any time. And there are plenty of other Banks out there, so the customer is only slightly inconvenienced.
But imagine the merry hell if the bank stopped the accounts of the Gay and Lesbian Christian Movement...
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Thought about changing my name - but it would be a shame to lose all the credibility and good will I have on the Ship...
Posts: 672 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Yes, I would see that as retrograde step and be unhappy about it. However my unhapiness would stem from what such a move said about the direction socity was moving in, rather than the Bank's actions per se.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fish Fish:
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
And, anticipating future posters, I don't see this as persecution or an attack on freedom of speech. Presumably a Bank, like any other business, has a right to withdraw its services from a customer at any time. And there are plenty of other Banks out there, so the customer is only slightly inconvenienced.
But imagine the merry hell if the bank stopped the accounts of the Gay and Lesbian Christian Movement...
Well, I disagree with the banks decision but it was entitled to take it.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
quote:
Phelps called Canada the "sperm bank of Satan". With enemies like these, we may be doing something right!
After an endorsemnet like that I'm almost tempted to emigrate!
One more Canadian province adopted same-sex marriage by court ruling yesterday. Canada East says
quote:
... brought New Brunswick in line with all other provinces except Prince Edward Island and Alberta and the Northwest Territories by recognizing everyone's right to legally marry.
The bill making a uniform national standard is now extending the sitting of the parliament, although it seems to be mostly of symbolic significance.
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
Who is Phelps? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Somebody asked me earlier in the thread if I respected their view, but I don't know who they are and I don't know what view they hold. Would appreciate some feedback on Phelps. Thanx.
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Littlelady:
Who is Phelps? Somebody asked me earlier in the thread if I respected their view, but I don't know who they are and I don't know what view they hold. Would appreciate some feedback on Phelps. Thanx.
He's the guy behind http://www.godhatesfags.com. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Here's more information, but I don't recommend reading this right after a meal:
Wikipedia article on Fred Phelps.
An infamous and execrable man. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
And he's proof positive that not all views are to be tolerated and respected.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
JJ - thanks for the links on Phelps. Before I say anything more, I'm analytical by nature so I tend to see all angles to each issue. So when I say that I found Phelps' position fascinating, that's not me saying I like or agree with his view. Far from it. It's gross and bigoted in the extreme. Nasty, nasty stuff.
But I know that while the lexicology might be different, I don't have to turn the clock very far back in English history (or any other European country's history) to hear very similar sentiments expressed - it sounds like Calvanism taken to its logical, most fundamentalist extreme. Dangerous and obnoxious stuff but I suppose unlike Ruth I respect his right to hold that view, though not to incite hatred and violence as a result (which clearly he is doing).
Although I'm English, I tend to stand with the American view on freedom of speech - mainly because I find the creeping control of the UK insidious. I know that puts me at odds with many people in the UK, but that's never put me off before. I'd rather know where the foul views are and who holds them, than smother them so they fester under a veneer of so-called 'respect' and 'tolerance' (that wasn't a comment about anyone's contribution on these boards, btw - it was just a general statement).
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Littlelady:
Dangerous and obnoxious stuff but I suppose unlike Ruth I respect his right to hold that view,
No, I never said this, and I would very much like to know how on earth you arrived at this idea. I respect his right to hold whatever view he likes. But I do not respect the view itself, I find it to be completely intolerable, and I have zero respect for a man who pickets people's funerals.
Quite frankly, I don't care how recently Phelps' views and others like it were socially acceptable.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
No, I never said this, and I would very much like to know how on earth you arrived at this idea.
Only because you indicated in your previous post that it shouldn't be tolerated. This implies silencing the view. Do you think then that Phelps' view should be silenced (presumably by law) or tolerated (as he is at the moment)?
btw - I have no respect for someone who pickets funerals either. I think picketing funerals is pretty sick.
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
You've made several unwarranted assumptions about what I meant. Should Phelps be silenced by the law? Absolutely not. First Amendment rights--nuff said. But I think he should be shouted down in every public forum.
As for whether he's tolerated here, that depends on what we mean by "tolerate." Dictionary.com has these definitions:
1. To allow without prohibiting or opposing; permit.
I'd say he shouldn't be prohibited from speaking, but he should be opposed.
2. To recognize and respect (the rights, beliefs, or practices of others).
I recognize his rights, beliefs, and practices, but I don't respect them.
3. To put up with; endure.
We have to endure his loathsome speech, but we don't have to do it silently.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
God Hates Shrimp - a parody site.
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Surely Margaret Cho is gay...
(And thus we know all the people who have accounts at gay.com)
Such a long time since I checked this thread. It makes no diff now, but it was the idea that the ppl opposed to educational material in skools had power greatly in excess of their numbers that disturbed me. (And that they could cause resources and info to be denied to those that needed them).
I have put saysay's quote in my quotesfile. It's very good.
quote:
Back when I was a high school journalist (11-12 years ago), the gay and straight student alliance was called the drama club.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Littlelady
Shipmate
# 9616
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
You've made several unwarranted assumptions about what I meant. Should Phelps be silenced by the law? Absolutely not.
I don't think I made any assumptions. I obviously wrongly interpreted your original reference to tolerance (for info - I interpret tolerance as meaning 1 and/or 3 in your list; never 2) In my previous post I simply asked for clarification - thanks for giving it. I now appreciate where you are coming from.
quote:
First Amendment rights--nuff said. But I think he should be shouted down in every public forum.
I couldn't agree more.
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'When ideas fail, words come in very handy' ~ Goethe
Posts: 3737 | From: home of the best Rugby League team in the universe | Registered: Jun 2005
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
Surely Margaret Cho is gay...
Actually that's part of her standup routine -- she does an impression of her mother leaving answering machine messages asking her if she's gay. ("Are you gay? ... pick up the phone! ... It's okay, you can tell Mommy! You have such a cool mommy!" etc.)
More on Cho, including whether or not she's gay. She has been married to a man since 2003, and somehow I don't think he's her "beard"...
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
"I was like, am I gay? Am I straight? And I realized, I'm just slutty. Where's my parade?"
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
[ETA: above from Chastmastr's article]
[ 01. July 2005, 17:01: Message edited by: The Coot ]
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Re: what Fish Fish posted above as to the scenario if a bank refused the accts of the G&L Xtian Society. There's something not quite consistent in this comparison with the Trade Bank refusing the evo Xtian group.
What reason could a bank give for refusing the G&L Xtian Society for instance?
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
What reason could a bank give for refusing the G&L Xtian Society for instance?
How about them being part of the Vast Liberal Conspiracy™ to undermine Traditional Christian Values™? That would be the obvious tack.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Well, yes. But does that work in a job interview situation? Don't fink it would work in a 'provision of services' situation either...
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
It's better when you see her say it in standup. I LOVE ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif) Margaret Cho. Most of her humour is unquotable here ("Hi, my name is Gwen...") but she's well worth watching. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Some of Cho's stand-up shows are available on DVD. I thought "I'm the One that I Want" was hilarious from beginning to end, but "Notorious CHO" had a few real dead spots, IMO. I haven't seen "Revolution."
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
How can you derail a 50 page long dead horse?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
How can you derail a 50 page long dead horse?
By taking a tight curve too fast.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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RainbowKate
Shipmate
# 9331
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Posted
Just another word on Phelps- I support anyone's right to free speach- which is getting harder and harder to do with George Bush in office. Any criticism of the government is now labeled "anti-american".
I've come in contact with Phelps' hate group on two occassions. One when he picketed Episcopal Churches in the west and the gay/lesbian alliance at the local university came to counter protest and to shield church goers from them.
The other was in Roanoke, VA when he decided (I'm not sure it was actually him or just his cronies actually) to protest at the funeral of a gay man who was killed in a shooting at a gay bar. Phelps' group were very supportive of the man who went into this bar and shot several people- purely because they were gay. The shooter's name was Richard Gay and he was apparently tired of people in a bar up the street teasing him about his name. So to prove he wasn't gay he went and shot the gays.
What I find frightening about Phelps is that he adds fuel to these people's fires. He incites violence and encourages it. All in the name of Jesus...it's evil.
Posts: 1227 | From: Left at the loophole | Registered: Apr 2005
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
How did I miss the "Satan's Sperm Bank" comment?!?! Time to change the location in my profile, I think!
Go Canada!
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Lesser Weevil
Apprentice
# 10070
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Posted
Just a quick thought about David and Jonathan: Given his randy, "gotta have her now" response to Bathsheba and his intentional return to Abigail after he heard she was available, it seems that David had a hetero side. Would that have bearing on that question of his relationship with Jonathan?
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In case of dissension, never dare to judge till you've heard the other side.
Euripides, Heraclidae, circa 428 B.C.
Posts: 40 | From: Chicago | Registered: Aug 2005
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Hi Lesser Weevil, and welcome.
I've never been convinced of David's having a sexual passion for Jonathan. However, a "love surpassing..." in a society which treats women as mere possessions suggests something more than just mateship or deep friendship. But I don't know what that might be.
He was definitely a randy, murderous bloke, no two ways about it - maybe swinging both ways. And of course, it his marriage to Bathsheba that ultimately leads to Jesus, which gives us even more to chew on.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Hello, The Lesser Weevil, and welcome aboard.
Thank you for your interesting contribution.
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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iGeek.*
Resident alien
# 3207
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Posted
Regardless as to whether David & Jonathan ever got it on (I'm personally not convinced they did - though Jon taking his kit off and presenting to Dave seems suspiciously dom/sub), I'm amused that two often cited paragon examples of love in the Bible take place between two persons of the same sex, namely David & Jonathon and Ruth & Naomi.
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.sig on holiday
Posts: 702 | From: Hot-on-us, TX | Registered: Aug 2002
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The Lesser Weevil
Apprentice
# 10070
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Posted
Arabella,
I'm not a combat veteran myself, but I’ve been told that combat troops often find that the most intense relationships they ever have are those with the other men in their squad. Maybe the bond between David and Jonathan was forged in battle with the Philistines.
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In case of dissension, never dare to judge till you've heard the other side.
Euripides, Heraclidae, circa 428 B.C.
Posts: 40 | From: Chicago | Registered: Aug 2005
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
The Sacred Band of Thebes in classical times, according to Plutarch (via Wikipedia) consisted of 150 pairs of (male) lovers.
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
The Sacred Band of Thebes in classical times, according to Plutarch (via Wikipedia) consisted of 150 pairs of (male) lovers.
Which is why it was said that after they had been wiped out at the battle of Chaeronea, Philip of Macedon had the bodies counted and when all 300 were found is supposed to have said "Let no man say that these were not men!"
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Lesser Weevil
Apprentice
# 10070
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Posted
Henry,
Yes, sexual relationships were an important part of military structure and unit cohesion in the Greek armies. There is a well-supported article on Wikipedia entitled “Homosexuality_in_the_militaries_of_ancient_Greece” that covers the topic if you are interested.
That practice suggests some interesting questions about the relationship between sexual activity and sexual orientation. I have not seen any research on the numbers of Greek soldiers who either were married during their military service or married afterward. However, in many of the Greek city-states, military service was a universal requirement for citizens. At the same time, the population of these city states was fairly stable during the city-state era. Therefore, it seems reasonable to assert that a large portion of Greek men had both homosexual and heterosexual relationships. If that is true, what can we say about these soldiers’ sexual orientation? Is orientation malleable under a societal demand such as community defense?
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In case of dissension, never dare to judge till you've heard the other side.
Euripides, Heraclidae, circa 428 B.C.
Posts: 40 | From: Chicago | Registered: Aug 2005
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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Lesser Weevil:
Yes, sexual relationships were an important part of military structure and unit cohesion in the Greek armies.
Clearly somebody in the U.S. military command has not read his history....
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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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