Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Homosexuality and Christianity
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Gay Christians argue it, Wanderer. They also had sex with animals in some pagan worship. The idea that straights cannot have gay sex put forward by gay activists, is untrue. Prisons, seafarers (in the past), young men at weddings in India (C4 programme about gender bending) without thinking it 'gay'.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
The Wanderer --
What underlies the biblical prohibitions on homosexual behaviour -- indeed, the reason they condemn homosexual activity, not orientation -- is precisely as ChristinaMarie has said: the denial that there is such a thing as homosecual orientation and that all homosecual activity is being carried out by heterosexuals who have been perverted. This has been the base belief in Western civilization for millennia -- you can hardly be surprised that it is still around and still being used to justify attitudes towards gay people.
The alternate belief -- that there is such a thing as same sex attraction, and that gays are not perverted/persuaded straights -- is new as of a couple of decades ago. I believe it's based on junimpeachable science, but there are lots of people and some scientists who deny it, or who don't accept that it means the biblical condemnations don't apply.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
John, I take your point. My question remains however - if things were that simple surely homosexuality would have disappeared centuries ago, due to all the heterosexual influence around?
Christina, forgive me but I found your post very hard to follow. How does sex with animals fit into this discussion? And I'm not sure you can claim: "Gay Christians argue it" as though all homosexual christians speak with one voice. Even aboard Ship there is plenty of evidence to suggest diveristy here.
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
I think ChristinaMarie is making the point that in fact straights can indulge perfectly happily in gay sex -- just as in ancient times they sometimes indulged in bestiality -- without becoming "gay". Historically it is certainly the case that, at least for people in the middle of the spectrum from GAY to STRAIGHT, culture and upbringing led some straights to same-sex behaviour. And as she said, straight men in prison and on ships (and no doubt in other places) certainly engage/d in gay sex. All those jokes about Australians and sheep started there.
Reactions to paedophilia frequently have as one component the idea that the (by definition straight) children will be influenced into liking gay sex. (And yes, I am aware that most paedophilia is not same sex, and I am not suggesting that gay men are any more likely than straight men to be paedophiles.) I've never seen any evidence that's true -- but it is believed to be true by many.
As for homosexuality dying out, if... -- if it's learned behaviour, someone basically straight may teach your basically straight son, and so on. That way it won't die out. Gay (behaving) people were seen as having been perverted (turned away) from their normal orientation, and as seeking then to pervert others so that it carried on.
And that's the context in which homosexuality is seen as not just abnormal statistically (ie, not the behaviour of the majority) but abnormal in other ways.
Help?
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
quote: Christina, forgive me but I found your post very hard to follow. How does sex with animals fit into this discussion? And I'm not sure you can claim: "Gay Christians argue it" as though all homosexual christians speak with one voice. Even aboard Ship there is plenty of evidence to suggest diveristy here.
What John said, regarding animals.
As a transsexual woman in a same-sex relationship, I know what the Gay Christian argument is regarding the Bible verses. You can check out Gay Christian websites. You can read posts here in Dead Horses which argue the same.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie: As a transsexual woman in a same-sex relationship, I know what the Gay Christian argument is regarding the Bible verses. You can check out Gay Christian websites. You can read posts here in Dead Horses which argue the same. tina
I must agree here, no matter what the specific gay Christian argument you refer to, no matter how wide-ranging it may be held by various gay Christians, it is and cannot be the only gay Christian argument or approach to Bible verses. Gay Christian approaches to Scripture are going to vary as widely as any other Christian approaches to Scripture, or for that matter approaches to anything else. We don't have one codified belief system to which all gays, all Christians, or all gay Christians absolutely adhere.
David
-------------------- My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Please then point me to a Gay Christian argument which does not say that the same-sex activities condemned in the Bible, are about pagan cultic rituals. Please show me where it is argued that it is a condemnation of all same-sex activity, including loving same-sex relationships.
Sure, there will be Gay Christians who don't give a toss about the Bible passages, because they don't believe it to be the Word of God, but I am referring to arguments by Gay Christians who do believe the Bible to be the Word of God.
Organisations that teach what I have stated include the Metropolitan Community Church (if they're not representative of Gay Christians, I don't know who is!) Soulforce and the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement in the UK.
At least 90% of Gay Christian literature I have seen argue this, and I've read much. If you have a 10% who say something different, then fine, but it is ridiculous to argue against my point using the generalisation defence, when so many do, and you know darn well they do.
I know that you are an exception because you believe that oral sex and any sex including the manipulation of the penis is wrong, but you have believed, and still do as far as I'm aware, that fisting is perfectly okay. If that is not a minority position among Gay and Lesbian Christians, I don't know what is.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
ChristineMarie, by now I am totally confused as to what's going on. I am sure that fault is mine, but I am very confused. When you said: quote: It is you, Coot, who are against free speech. You wish to punish the majority, for not accepting the wishes of the minority.
I thought you were lambasting Coot for wanting the freedom to express a pro-gay position.
When you said: quote: Gay Christians argue it, Wanderer. They also had sex with animals in some pagan worship.
I thought that "They" referred to gay christians, and that you were claiming that homosexuals were automatically into bestiality as well.
Now you've indentified yourself as "a transsexual woman in a same-sex relationship" and have explicity argued that "that the same-sex activities condemned in the Bible are about pagan cultic rituals" so my earlier assumptions seem to be wrong. But I would be very grateful if you would clarify your position because I am very, very confused by this point.
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
1. The tone of Coot's post was one of 'how can anyone in their right mind oppose gay rights in schools'? Typical Liberal position of opposing free speech and thought by imposing social penalties on people (the majority) followed by penalties such as losing one's job followed by prison. Disagree with the Government and you end up in prison. It has the same result as Communism in the Soviet Union, where dissenters were imprisoned, sent to psych wards or gulags or killed because they dissented, not because of crime.
2. The people who had sex with animals were pagan worshippers, Leviticus 17-19.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
PS The same people who want gay sex taught about in schools (when only 2/3% of the population are gay or lesbian) are the same types who have opposed corporal punishment in schools, thereby making it very difficult for teachers to deal with bullying.
If a teacher deals with bullying by picking on the ringleaders and intimidating them in the same way they are doing to the bullied child, they will end up being charged with assault.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie: 1. The tone of Coot's post was one of 'how can anyone in their right mind oppose gay rights in schools'? Typical Liberal position of opposing free speech and thought by imposing social penalties on people (the majority) followed by penalties such as losing one's job followed by prison.
How on earth did you read that into it? Completely off the wall, unrelated to what;s actually been said.
If I said to you that you are talking like a typical so-called libertarian who pretends to believe in freedom but actually wants to enslave the majority to their bosses, you would be annoyed. But that's what you sound like here.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
I'm opposed to children being taught gay propaganda.
This is what Coot stated:
quote: How does it happen?! What's going on guys? (US Shipmates) You're the land where freedom and free speech is King - how are these people getting away with it!? Surely out of nearly 300 million people, the people with the views that want to stop supportive organisations or the dissemination of educational material regarding homosexuality in schools are a minority? Less than the total number of gay people in the US I shouldn't wonder!
Why do they have such a loud (and effective) voice?!
I am often puzzled by why you guys are so enamoured of your Constitution, but when I read stuff like this, I realise it is the only thing that keeps nutters from trampling all over the rights of people who don't share their views.
Now all you need is for Mr Bush to change it so they can legally trample all over the rights of ppl who don't share their views.
He calls people like myself, 'nutters' so what I wrote is accurate.
Should you Ken, write what you wrote about me, I would check to see if you are right, I've just done so, this time I believe you to be wrong.
We can all misread things, sure, so I do check.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Sorry Christina, I'm still confused. What do you mean by "gay propaganda"? And why, as someone who is self confessedly actively gay, are you opposed to it?
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
quote: However, many scientists share the view that sexual orientation is shaped for most people at an early age through complex interactions of biological, psychological and social factors.
This is from the Soulforce website.
http://www.soulforce.org/main/psychological.shtml
We do not know what causes people to be gay, I happen to agree with the quote from Soulforce.
Therefore, there is a risk that children who would grow up to be married and have kids, could be affected by teaching that homosexuality is normal, etc.
We should not take such risks with children.
The latest scientific evidence I have read regarding the processes that sex our brains, and give us a sense of gender identity and sexual orientation, show that the process is not complete until the age of around 22.
We know that thoughts can affect the brain, so to promote homosexuality to schoolchildren, is wrong, IMO.
Bullying should be dealt with, but not by teaching children that being gay is normal. I have actually witnessed a bit being teased about being gay, and he said he wasn't gay.
Furthermore, if the gay activists keep pushing minority views on the majority, especially on their children, we can expect an almighty backlash.
The work of the activists will end up pushing people to violence. As Tatchell said regarding a man who was arrested for calling a Police horse 'gay' when things go as far as that, it promotes hatred towards us.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Christina: I'm not particularly even talking about my own position, which isn't quite the one you describe these days. A minority position is still a position. And there are also gay Christians who don't do anything of the things you list, and are still gay Christians. But I'm disagreeing with your approach of talking as if there is only one gay Christian Position. We don't have some kind of Head Homosexual who issues formal proclamations on doctrine. There are gay Christians who are sola scriptura, gay Christians who are tradition-focused, gay Christians who don't consider the Bible inspired, and a host of others; gay Christians who do believe in sex, and ones who don't, however they define it. (Matters are complicated in the US because many people who would describe themselves as "gay Christians" (but who abstain from sex) don't call themselves that -- "gay" is taken to be "propaganda" by some of these people; it seems different in the UK, from what I have read, however.)
Isn't "typical Liberal position of opposing free speech and thought" Hellish rather than Dead-Horsish?
I share Wanderer's bafflement. Indeed, if you yourself are a gay Christian who considers the point of view you're discussing to be "propaganda," then isn't the very existence of your own position a refutation of the idea that there's only one gay Christian position worth mentioning?
David
-------------------- My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Thank you David - it's a relief to know I'm not alone in my confusion.
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Wanderer: Thank you David - it's a relief to know I'm not alone in my confusion.
Well, I try to do what I'm best at; being confused is perhaps a weak goal, but it's my goal.
-------------------- My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
(And I've just passed my 4000th post without noticing. I do hope I said something significant. Hope springs eternal.......)
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
quote: I share Wanderer's bafflement. Indeed, if you yourself are a gay Christian who considers the point of view you're discussing to be "propaganda," then isn't the very existence of your own position a refutation of the idea that there's only one gay Christian position worth mentioning? [Confused]
I am not describing the Christian Gay explanation of the Bible, to be propaganda. I believe that to be true.
I am opposed to teaching children about homosexuality, and the propaganda that says it is normal. It is not normal.
I am concerned about children. What adults do is up to them.
I am actually a bisexual transsexual Christian woman in a same-sex relationship. I'm queerer than you.
Thanks for the update that you've changed your position.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
quote: Isn't "typical Liberal position of opposing free speech and thought" Hellish rather than Dead-Horsish?
You know what to do if you think so, I stand by what I gave stated.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote: I am opposed to teaching children about homosexuality, and the propaganda that says it is normal. It is not normal.
"Normal" is one of those slippery words that I find so difficult. By saying "homosexuality is not normal" you might be saying that it is a dangerous abberation that disrupts the created order. Or you might mean it is not what most people get up to.
By now I'm assuming you mean the latter; your earlier posts would have led me to the former. That's why I'm confused.
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie: quote: Isn't "typical Liberal position of opposing free speech and thought" Hellish rather than Dead-Horsish?
You know what to do if you think so, I stand by what I gave stated.
Why, yes, I do know what to do, and I did it -- point out that this is Dead Horses, not Hell. None of the liberal people I know, gay or straight, "oppose free speech and thought," and I don't think they're (we're) atypical. I suppose we could start a thread in Purgatory about whether or not this is "typical" liberal (or conservative, or Whig, perhaps) behavior, but I don't have a desperate longing to.
PS: And, like Wanderer, I'm still confused on the point he raises. [ 15. June 2005, 20:53: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
-------------------- My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
If everyone was homosexual, the human race would not exist.
Homosexuality is the result of things going wrong. It is relatively normal for the homosexual to be attracted to the same sex, but that is not normal human behaviour, it is the result of things going wrong. It cannot be cured, as far as I know, and homosexual people should not be persecuted.
Homosexual people should not push their agenda on the children of the majority, either.
Let's have respect for parents and not call them nutters because they don't want homosexuality being promoted as normal, in schools.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Calling people 'nutters' because they disagree with you is a tactic which is opposed to free speech and thought.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie: Homosexuality is the result of things going wrong. It is relatively normal for the homosexual to be attracted to the same sex, but that is not normal human behaviour, it is the result of things going wrong. It cannot be cured, as far as I know, and homosexual people should not be persecuted.
Christina -- are you saying that this is the standard "gay Christian position" you were referring to earlier, or only the part about the interpretation of Scripture? Because honestly it's not one I've heard before, from either "pro" or "anti" folks.
quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie: Calling people 'nutters' because they disagree with you is a tactic which is opposed to free speech and thought.
I thought Coot was calling them "nutters," not because they have different religious beliefs, but because they are (in Coot's (and my) opinion)
quote: trampling all over the rights of people who don't share their views
which in the US is against the principle of free speech and freedom of religion. The US is not a theocracy.
David
-------------------- My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
David,
If you think that only Conservative Christians are against the promotion of homosexuality in schools, I think you are kidding yourself. (deluding yourself)
There are many people who have no problem with people being gay, but they don't want the gay and lesbian lifestyle taught in a positive way in schools, to their children. Can you not understand that?
I have a son. Do you think I want him subjected to a positive view of homosexuality at school? No, I do not. It is inappropriate.
You want the wishes of a tiny group, perhaps 3% of the population to be forced upon 97% of the population. That is not free speech. Why not respect the wishes of parents? Why call them nutters? It just shows how much respect you have for people if you answer their objections with name-calling instead of rational arguments.
If teenagers want to gather together as friends in a gay/straight alliance type way, they can do it in their own time and place. They can go for walks together, etc. I do not believe schools are the place for them.
The Conservative Christians will have lots of support from parents, whatever their religious beliefs.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie: You want the wishes of a tiny group, perhaps 3% of the population to be forced upon 97% of the population. That is not free speech. Why not respect the wishes of parents? Why call them nutters? It just shows how much respect you have for people if you answer their objections with name-calling instead of rational arguments.
Source for this statistic? Are you only including gay people in favor of so-called "gay propaganda"? I'm asking because I'm straight and very much in favor of gay-straight clubs in high schools.
Teenagers shouldn't have free speech? (Separate, non-dead horse topic, probably.)
quote: Homosexual people should not push their agenda on the children of the majority, either.
You mean things like wanting respect and freedom and fair treatment? How dare they!
What makes you say homosexuality is not normal? Do you mean that simply that it's not the norm? Because that's true--but lots of things are outside the norm without being wrong. I'm outside the norm as I've never married, but there's nothing wrong with being single. Seeing as homosexuality seems to occur naturally in a number of species, including homo sapiens, it seems pretty normal to me, if we're using "normal" in the sense of "natural," one of its colloquial uses.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie: There are many people who have no problem with people being gay, but they don't want the gay and lesbian lifestyle taught in a positive way in schools, to their children. Can you not understand that?
I have a son. Do you think I want him subjected to a positive view of homosexuality at school? No, I do not. It is inappropriate.
Ah, so you're saying that I, as a public school teacher, may not display photos of my girlfried on my desk because I am also a woman?
I'm not allowed to mention any trips we go on together? Any movies we go to together? When kids ask if I'm married, I can't say, "My partner and I have made lifetime committments to each other"?
(This is, of course, supposing that sometime after I finish my master's degree I have time to find a girlfriend...)
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
What I am saying is this: If people object to their children being taught about homosexuality then respect it. Don't assume they are nutters. Don't assume they hate gay people.
Should a Schoolteacher be telling the children she teaches about her lesbian lover? No, IMO. Why would you feel the need to?
Free speech is also about the majority being able to voice their opinions and concerns without being labelled as nutters or haters. Democracy is about what the majority want.
Gay people have made lots of progress in gaining acceptance, force the teaching of homosexuality in schools, force the making of laws against parents objecting (which will come) and we will suffer a huge backlash. It is one thing to be accepted, it is quite another to expect straight people to allow homosexuals to set the agends for their children in school.
Sow the wind, you will reap the whirlwind. Unfortunately, those of us who do not wish to interfere with the rights of straight people, particularly parents, will suffer too.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
Statistics
quote: Until recently, the popular press assumed a homosexuality rate of 10 percent. But in both Europe and the United States, more than a dozen national surveys in the early 1990s explored sexual orientation, using methods that protected the respondent's anonymity. Their results agree in suggesting that a more accurate figure is about 3 or 4 percent of men and 1 to 2 percent of women (Laumann & others, 1994; Smith, 1996).
Less than 1 percent of the respondents reported being actively bisexual, but a larger number of adults reported having had an isolated homosexual experience. And most people said they had had an occasional homosexual fantasy.
http://www.soulforce.org/main/evidence.shtml
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
First, your statistic about how many people are gay is irrelevant. As I pointed out, I'm straight, and I want kids to be taught to respect the rights of homosexuals. I want them to see positive representations of gay people. I want them to know that it's okay to be gay; after all, some of them are going to turn out to be gay, and the rest of them will all sooner or later know someone who is gay. (Hands up, all straight people on this thread who are with me on this.) Support for things like gay marriage in some places (Massachusetts, for example) far exceeds the number of gay people.
quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie: Free speech is also about the majority being able to voice their opinions and concerns without being labelled as nutters or haters. Democracy is about what the majority want.
Free speech is about everyone being able to voice their opinion, and if my opinion is that someone is a nutter, you're stuck with that in a society with free speech.
Democracy is not just about what the majority want, at least where I live. It's also about making sure there is no tyranny of the majority. The oppression of minority groups is hardly an argument in favor of democracy.
quote: It is one thing to be accepted, it is quite another to expect straight people to allow homosexuals to set the agends for their children in school.
You're assuming that heterosexual and homosexual people want vastly different things, but in my experience that is not true. As far as I can tell, the vast majority of homosexual people want to live their lives in peace and freedom in pretty much the same ways that heterosexual people do. They want to have good jobs, send their children to good schools, live in decent places, and enjoy their free time.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
quote: (Hands up, all straight people on this thread who are with me on this.)
That is certainly totally irrelevant! This is a very unique forum for Christians. Most Christian forums have people with very different views about homosexuality than this one.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
quote: You're assuming that heterosexual and homosexual people want vastly different things, but in my experience that is not true. As far as I can tell, the vast majority of homosexual people want to live their lives in peace and freedom in pretty much the same ways that heterosexual people do. They want to have good jobs, send their children to good schools, live in decent places, and enjoy their free time.
Yes, most straight parents don't want gays to be persecuted in anyway, but they don't want gay stuff taught to their kids either. Mutual respect is what they want. They don't want minority opinions promoted as the only decent opinions, which is what Political Correctness is all about. Liberal Fascist is not an oxymoron because the Liberal who believes in imposing PC values on society is not truly Liberal, they are tyrants who work towards a society where people can be sacked for saying the wrong things, and even imprisoned for saying the wrong things. Like Marxism, PCism punishes dissenters. First it is by making dissenters social outcasts, then they lose their jobs, now laws are being made to put people in jail.
The good news is that people are becoming aware of this now. The Internet is being used to spread information that is censored by PC Media. More and more people are waking up to what is going on.
If it gets to the point where those protesting parents are criminalised, labelled as haters, there will be one almighty backlash against the gay community.
Let gay teenagers get together outside schools with their straight friends, if they want. They can meet in school anyway, just without the gay/straight club meeting label.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie: What I am saying is this: If people object to their children being taught about homosexuality then respect it. ...
Or evolution? or sex education ? or sanitation? or arithmetic? Is there a line to draw here somewhere? Is there anything that the school should teach, regardless of parental preference?
In a similar conversation, an acquantance said he had no problem with gays in the workplace, as long as they didn't flaunt it, for example by wearing a ribbon!
I checked - he wasn't wearing a wedding ring, so I didn't get him on double standards. But I did push back.
-------------------- "Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
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Posted
quote: Or evolution? or sex education ? or sanitation? or arithmetic? Is there a line to draw here somewhere? Is there anything that the school should teach, regardless of parental preference?
As Soulforce say, the causes of homosexuality may be a combination of factors. Teaching homosexuality to children in schools, may lead some children to think they are gay and end up in a gay lifestyle and their parents being deprived of grandchildren.
That is the risk they are taking. It is not about gay and lesbian rights, it is about the rights of children not to be taught about lifestyles that are detrimental to people and society. Society needs children to be born in order to survive, and birth rates are low as it is.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
Should a Schoolteacher be telling the children she teaches about her lesbian lover? No, IMO. Why would you feel the need to?
Free speech is also about the majority being able to voice their opinions and concerns without being labelled as nutters or haters. Democracy is about what the majority want.
Gay people have made lots of progress in gaining acceptance, force the teaching of homosexuality in schools, force the making of laws against parents objecting (which will come) and we will suffer a huge backlash. It is one thing to be accepted, it is quite another to expect straight people to allow homosexuals to set the agends for their children in school.
Christina
Christina, if I may, you seem to be buying into the idea that there is some gay conspiracy seeking to pervert all our poor young people -- who would all be straight unless those wicked perverted abnormal gays got their hands on them. Evidence please. The fact that some gay and many straight people want the ordinary civil rights of all people respected hardly qualifies. I don't know what you are reacting to when you accuse gays of promoting homosexuality in the schools -- because that's what your words mean -- round here that stand is occupied only by right-wing loonies -- nutters, that is.
Should a Schoolteacher be telling the children she teaches about her lesbian lover? you ask. Sure, why not, All the straight teachers talk about their spouses. What's the difference? Of course, I'm writing from a country in 95% of which same sex couples can marry -- the whole thing -- so no doubt my opinion is corrupted already by those gay people.
John [ 16. June 2005, 02:58: Message edited by: John Holding ]
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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ChristinaMarie
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quote: Christina, if I may, you seem to be buying into the idea that there is some gay conspiracy seeking to pervert all our poor young people -- who would all be straight unless those wicked perverted abnormal gays got their hands on them. Evidence please.
I have posted the evidence from the Soulforce website. It is thought that there are multiple factors which account for someone being gay. Therefore, children should not be taught about it in school because we do not know how it affects them. Children are not to be experimented on. They are not guinea pigs.
I do not believe that there is a gay conspiracy to change straight children into gay children.
I do believe that gay activists put gay rights over and above the welfare of children in this matter.
I have no objections to a State or County where the majority of parents want homosexuality taught. I do believe that parents in those places should have the right to have their children removed from any classes where it was taught though.
All children should be taught not to bully anyone for whatever reason.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
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quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie: Teaching homosexuality to children in schools, may lead some children to think they are gay and end up in a gay lifestyle and their parents being deprived of grandchildren.
I'm always amazed at how attractive vice must be that it can be so easily caught. So a boy might inadvertantly think he was gay, erroneously spend twenty years enjoying sodomy and fellatio, mistakenly enter into a long-term relationship with another man, all because his teacher mentioned her lesbian lover?
My God, it's more contagious than Ebola.
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ChristinaMarie
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quote: Of course, I'm writing from a country in 95% of which same sex couples can marry -- the whole thing -- so no doubt my opinion is corrupted already by those gay people.
Yes, my long term girlfriend is Canadian and we can get married if we want to, but I don't believe in it. I do believe in Civil Partnerships though, and we may do that.
I have learned that Canada has become the Capital of Political Correctness, and I now view your Country in a different light altogether. It is one of the last places I would choose to live now.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChristinaMarie
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quote: I'm always amazed at how attractive vice must be that it can be so easily caught. So a boy might inadvertantly think he was gay, erroneously spend twenty years enjoying sodomy and fellatio, mistakenly enter into a long-term relationship with another man, all because his teacher mentioned her lesbian lover?
If you were thinking straight Sine (which I know is hard for you) I guess you may have mentioned girls being influenced by lesbian teachers.
It is quite normal for straight girls to have crushes on female teachers, Sine. That is well known. So, yes, they may get confused.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sean
Shipmate
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
Should a Schoolteacher be telling the children she teaches about her lesbian lover? No, IMO. Why would you feel the need to?
How could she avoid doing so? Good teachers don't dictate every question and comment that happens in a classroom, and if you live in a small country town it is impossible to keep your "private life" entirely out of sight from your students.
quote: I have no objections to a State or County where the majority of parents want homosexuality taught.
How do you teach homosexuality? No don't answer that. I assume you mean teach about homosexuality.
So, if one of Spiffy's students asks her about her partner, you expect her to ask a list of students to leave the room before she responds?
quote: All children should be taught not to bully anyone for whatever reason.
Of course - has anyone argued otherwise.
However, if the system, by its failure to argue otherwise, implies to the kids that certain people are inferior in some way, harassment of that group is inevitable.
-------------------- "So far as the theories of mathematics are about reality, they are not certain; so far as they are certain, they are not about reality" - Einstein
Posts: 1085 | From: A very long way away | Registered: May 2001
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whitebait
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quote: ChristinaMarie said: Teaching homosexuality to children in schools, may lead some children to think they are gay and end up in a gay lifestyle and their parents being deprived of grandchildren.
Conversely. Not teaching children in schools about homosexuality, may lead some gay children to think they are straight and end up in a straight lifestyle and their spouses being deprived of the heterosexual partners they expected.
I thought sex education was about giving children facts, and encouraging them to think responsibly about the decisions they take, and the consequences of those decisions.
I see giving honest, balanced and proportionate levels of information about homosexuality as education, not promotion. It may be a delicate balance to strike, but that is better than censoring all talk of homosexuality as if it didn't exist.
Being a teenager in the seventies, sex education classes never discussed homosexuality. Its coverage never progressed beyond disparaging asides from a few homophobic teachers and playground taunting of effeminate boys. The church too, avoided any serious engagement with the issue, wishing it away. In retrospect, that approach has been very unhelpful, and I'd like to think that we have moved on from there. [ 16. June 2005, 11:40: Message edited by: whitebait ]
-------------------- small fry on a journey
Posts: 151 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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ChastMastr
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Everyone has responded for me, Christina, apart from the following:
quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie: ...it is about the rights of children not to be taught about lifestyles that are detrimental to people and society.
But you yourself have said:
quote: I am actually a bisexual transsexual Christian woman in a same-sex relationship.
So you see relationships like your own as "detrimental to people and society"? If so, then why are you in one? If not, how is your situation different?
David
-------------------- My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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Paige
Shipmate
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Ruth---just wanted to stand up with you and be counted.
quote: Originally posted by whitebait: Conversely. Not teaching children in schools about homosexuality, may lead some gay children to think they are straight and end up in a straight lifestyle and their spouses being deprived of the heterosexual partners they expected.
That unsuspecting spouse would be me. Funny how not talking about homosexuality with my former husband didn't keep him on the "straight" and narrow.
Cristina---gay teenagers have a very high rate of suicide. They kill themselves because they never hear anyone tell them that they are not bad or abnormal.
Should we sacrifice them, just so that conservative straights (or people like yourself) will be more comfortable?
-------------------- Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
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Thank you Paige. That is a chilling, and timely, reflection to make.
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Paige
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Cristina--I think there's another aspect to all this that you are overlooking.
The religious wingnuts in my country are actively working to rescind the few rights---and certainly the tolerance---that have been granted to gays and lesbians.
They are not only trying to protect children from knowing about homosexuality---they are trying to roll back the clock to the days when gays were persecuted, legally, without recourse to any protections.
Some of the folks who are leading the charge here have advocated the public stoning of homosexuals. They hate you and everyone like you. They are few in number, but they have access to power far in excess of their numbers. They will destroy you if you try to be a good little girl and go along to get along.
By accomodating them, you embolden them. By saying "They've given us something, so let's don't look greedy by asking to be treated as normal human beings and citizens," you give them the power to take away what little you have.
You are wrong. And you endanger every gay and lesbian in the world by your attitudes.
I will fight you, and anyone who espouses what you espouse, until my last breath. I am teaching my children to fight you too. Accomodation to evil will not bring about good.
-------------------- Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote: Originally posted by ChristinaMarie: Calling people 'nutters' because they disagree with you is a tactic which is opposed to free speech and thought.
No it isn't! Its just a turn of phrase. Not a very nasty or forceful one either.
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Papio
Ship's baboon
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Anyone who thinks that a person's sexual identity is even the slightest bit influenced by what some school teachers says, or does not say, is so stupid that they don't have a right to an opinion on this, or any other, subject.
-------------------- Infinite Penguins. My "Readit, Swapit" page My "LibraryThing" page
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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Nope, even stupid people have a right to their opinions. They even have a right to air them. Pity, but there you go. The price of living in a free society is not too high to pay.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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