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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Yet more crappy choruses, wonky worship-songs and horrible hymns
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Re. "Consumer Christianity": while I think that Christians ought to rise above the idea of necessarily "going to the church they like" in favour of "joining the church where they can do most good", that does not apply to the "seeker" who will naturally be attracted by some churches and repelled by others. In my view, there is merit in trying to look at our forms of worship in the way that outsiders see them, rather than in terms of how we value them. (Of course, that isn't to say that all "seekers" are looking for the same thing, by any means).
As an aside, I used to chuckle at the concept of "Back to Church" Sunday. Some people will return to church, find it little changed, and rejoin. Others will have the opposite reaction, saying, "That reminds me of why I left in the first place!" (The opposite scenario is also true).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I hate the very concept of "Back to Church Sunday". It's so "Mamma has noticed that you've not been going to church, you naughty little sausage, so Nanny's been instructed to make sure you're all there next Sunday!"
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
BTW, do charismatic evangelicals sing worship songs at funerals, or do they revert to tradition at such times?
It's not as binary as that IME - it depends on circumstances but it's mostly both/and not either/or.
Depends what you want the songs to say
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
As an aside, I used to chuckle at the concept of "Back to Church" Sunday. Some people will return to church, find it little changed, and rejoin. Others will have the opposite reaction, saying, "That reminds me of why I left in the first place!" (The opposite scenario is also true).
I've never been involved. We try to make every week accessible to everyone in our community. Locally over 30% of the community do not have English as a first language and that % is growing, it brings interesting challenges to Sundays
[ 24. June 2016, 11:24: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
However much we may want to avoid, however bad a thing we think it is, consumer Christianity is here to stay. It's been with us since the first Jesus badges or God stickers and is now so imbedded in church culture that it seems impossible to shift it.
Of course it means that people travel around until they feel at home. It is what they do for everything else in life (ie choose where to live, what to do, who to marry), so it's a logical step to do it for church. I may not agree but I have to work with it.
In my experience BT if most Christians went to a church which had high expectations early on of their being "the answer" (or part thereof), they'd run a mile. Moving round or attending for the first time, usually results in a low level of commitment for other things unless it has a direct impact on them (ie families with children w want a good Sunday School).
The upshot of it all is that we can't rely on what we've always done but have to be constantly considering how we bridge with culture. That may mean, of course, that we can go as before - but don't go on without the reflection and questions or you're bound to get caught out.
Music is one area that provokes all sorts of reactions. Time was when you'd describe church issues as the 3 P's - preferences, practices and principles. Of these 3, the first - preferences - is the most common these days. It's about what I like and there's no harder ground on this than on music.
Whatever the music or its genre, the question is does it bring us close to God? The bigger question of course is what kind of God we identify with - I rather suspect we increasingly cast God in our image, and of our culture.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
BTW, do charismatic evangelicals sing worship songs at funerals, or do they revert to tradition at such times?
It's not as binary as that IME - it depends on circumstances but it's mostly both/and not either/or.
Depends what you want the songs to say
So which worship songs are popular at funerals? That would be interesting to know.
The funerals I attend use old hymns almost exclusively, regardless of what kind of church it is. But that's a cultural thing. It's never occurred to me that the hymns chosen were somehow not 'saying' the right thing, so it's interesting to know that that's a specific issue in other cultural contexts.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Whatever the music or its genre, the question is does it bring us close to God? The bigger question of course is what kind of God we identify with - I rather suspect we increasingly cast God in our image, and of our culture.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Nicely put.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So which worship songs are popular at funerals? That would be interesting to know.
Still (Hide me now)
10000 reasons
My Saviour Redeemer
Amazing Grace (My chains fell off)
Just a few examples. I would say that these are the choices of those who have made a specific commitment to faith and who are connected to churches.
People who aren't connected to churches will still tend to choose the old standards - perhaps because they are the ones they remember and/or the Funeral Director recommends them.
As for music "saying something" surely at a funeral its especially helpful if things hold together around the themes of hope, God's love etc. Songs of personal testimony are also appropriate for those who died having lived their faith - the songs point to a God who has brought hope.
The idea of music in worship is to lead and direct a person - whether it's a Mozart mass or a worship song it should do the same thing. The only preference there is musical style not words/content. I accept that the idiom and genre of the music itself may be part of bringing the person closer to God.
Taking up BT's comments about the faith of choir members/musicians/leaders, I really doubt if many evangelical churches would be very keen for those leading or even involved in worship, not to have made some commitment to faith.
They are, after all, leading others in a public setting with very specific goals. If their lifestyle openly doesn't add up to this outside of church then it may suggest to enquirers that there isn't much to this church thing anyway.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So which worship songs are popular at funerals? That would be interesting to know.
Still (Hide me now)
10000 reasons
My Saviour Redeemer
Amazing Grace (My chains fell off)
It just shows how hopelessly irredeemable the world is that "Drop Kick Me, Jesus, through the Goalposts of Life" is not on that list.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
The point that the consumer version doesn't help is the development of any kind of tradition, including that of music, because it promotes the preservation of distinction over the desirability of dialogue. You can't have a market in which everyone is talking to each other, because it interferes with competition. This is why the economic/consumerist model must fail if churches are to remain lively. The post-modern shrug cannot win.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Many moons ago (when studying for my Masters') I cam across Stark and Bainbridge's theory of the religious market. I critiqued it as being being gloriously free-market American - yet, as far as Christianity is concerned at least, it has some uncomfortable (to me) resonances with the British scene. If S&B are right, then a "consumer mentality" is vital if religion is to remain lively - which, to me, sounds horrible while containing a grain of ruth, too.
[ 24. June 2016, 19:18: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So which worship songs are popular at funerals? That would be interesting to know.
Still (Hide me now)
10000 reasons
My Saviour Redeemer
Amazing Grace (My chains fell off)
Just a few examples. I would say that these are the choices of those who have made a specific commitment to faith and who are connected to churches.
People who aren't connected to churches will still tend to choose the old standards - perhaps because they are the ones they remember and/or the Funeral Director recommends them.
Thanks. The funerals I go to are normally of quite old people who were normally churchgoers, or at least raised in the church, so old hymns are the ones that would be the most meaningful to them. I think that even those who attended charismatic or Pentecostal churches would be emotionally attached to the trad hymns they sang in their youth.
quote:
Music is one area that provokes all sorts of reactions. Time was when you'd describe church issues as the 3 P's - preferences, practices and principles. Of these 3, the first - preferences - is the most common these days. It's about what I like and there's no harder ground on this than on music.
Your 3 Ps are interesting.
ISTM that many people now don't go to church so much to be told what to do or believe (although being given guidance on these things obviously helps provide the expected 'church experience'). They go because they want to feel something, because they have spiritual but also psycho-social needs that they want to be fulfilled. Since music plays such a huge role in how we feel or want to feel, it's unsurprising that there's disagreement over it.
IME of Methodism there's a strong emphasis on duty. It's one's duty to serve the church, not to expect one's needs or preferences to be met. Singing certain music is part of the heritage of Methodism that one has a duty to maintain, and church decline is only met with ever more demands on the dutiful.
Realistically, I think an emphasis on duty (in terms of the music or otherwise) can only be detrimental to the ongoing vitality of a denomination, unless it's heavily bolstered by social custom and probably by stiff sanctions and/or state support.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Can someone please define/describe the evil of consumerism in the arena of choosing a church?
If I remember right, some of the Shipmates who protest church "consumerism" have themselves changed churches and church styles/theologies/music preferences.
Is it consumerism to seek a church that has programs you want for your family members (kiddie sunday school, nursing home visitors bringing communion),
or a style of music you value and relate to instead of one that turns you off (too slow, too jarring, too loud, too shallow, etc),
or a theology you appreciate instead of one you think shallow or wrong (belittling categories of people such as gays or women, mis-portraying God as brutal or disinterested)?
Are we all supposed to stay in whatever denomination we first landed in because the very idea of looking for a different church is evil "consumerism?"
Or if it's OK to look into changing church - what distinguishes "consumerism" from "not consumerism"?
Sometimes it sounds like anyone who switches away from "my" church is a "consumer" but anyone who switches to "my" church is "following God's lead" - which surely cannot be the distinction between a "consumerist" or not.
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Belle Ringer, please see above. I'm talking about the evils of applying brand logic to churches and how the need for a distinct brand and for that brand to identify primarily with its points of distinction gets in the way of dialogue and moving together within and among different strands and denominations. I'm not saying that people shouldn't consciously select the church they belong to.
In this case, it's very hard to see how the hymn tradition or the worship song tradition can learn from each other without being accused of betrayal. As it is, the hymn tradition is left to sink into self parody and worship songs to become ever more like the songs of the latest pop craze. Brands must retain their distinction at all costs, even that of polarization and increasing mutual suspicion, even contempt.
[ 25. June 2016, 05:56: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
ThunderBunk
In terms of people from different musical traditions learning from each other the problem is that most Christians (at least in the UK) are already aware, so they think, of the heritage of traditional music that's available to them. They can visit the average church in the average neighbourhood and hear it for themselves. So there might not be much eagerness to learn more about that.
But different church traditions are working together quite a lot these days. Ecumenicalism is happening because churches have to pool resources in difficult conditions. I don't know what impact this is having on church music, though.
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I have told my choir that if they dare to sing Amazing Grace at my funeral I will come back and haunt them. I'm busy compiling a list of other unacceptable music after which I'll make a list of what I would really like.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Amazing Grace is a brilliant tune when performed properly.
Which is rarely, I share your pain.
You could try compiling a list of songs for your funeral that you hate. You won't have to listen to them. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Last ever sig ...
blog
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I've noted that churches I've been in with 'praise bands' have generally attempted it in 4/4. Because you can't make a waltz sound like soft rock? Because otherwise it doesn't fit the mono-tempo medley which the 'time of praise and worship' tends to turn into?
I'm a player, not a worship leader - I don't have those skills. Especially I've noticed when forced into that role now and again that my un-smooth links and tempo / key changes mean folks drop their hands and look a bit shifty in the lurches in mood which result. Which sometimes makes me feel it's all bollocks, if I need smooth-DJ-link skills to make it seem to happen.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Well, choirmasters and organists need to have 'skills' in leading too, I would have thought....
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
Duke Ellington said, "There's good music and there's bad music and you can tell the difference by listening." The idea that all music is somehow equally acceptable and good--that it's just a matter of individual taste--is just poisonous nonsense.
Has anything that isn't crap ever come out of "GIA Publications"? In my experience none of their little ditties are fit to be recycled as kitty litter--faced with such, my little cat would probably poop on the floor (or knowing her, more likely, on a current WIP).
Well, instead of a prelude this morning, we got a piece of garbage called "Don't be afraid," one of those pathetic earworms with lyrics from God's point of view. Only two lines, over and over until I thought I was going to go mad. (If captured by enemy agents, I would give up all my secrets immediately if exposed to this kind of assault.) And then, we got the same thing as music for communion!!! This a week after having a piece by Holly Near. "We are gentle (or peaceful?) angry people." That is the first and I hope the only time I ever have to hear her foul output. I don't care how "relevant" the lyrics are. Simple-minded bad music is simple-minded bad music. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
With hundreds of years of glorious music in the Christian tradition, everything from medieval chant to Bach cantatas, Mozart, Vaugh-Williams, African-American spirituals...WHY?
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
Duke Ellington said, "There's good music and there's bad music and you can tell the difference by listening." The idea that all music is somehow equally acceptable and good--that it's just a matter of individual taste--is just poisonous nonsense.
Actually, the Duke Ellington quote is ”There are simply two kinds of music: good music and the other kind. The only yardstick by which the result should be judged is simply that of how it sounds. If it sounds good it's successful; if it doesn't it has failed."
quote:
Has anything that isn't crap ever come out of "GIA Publications"? In my experience none of their little ditties are fit to be recycled as kitty litter--faced with such, my little cat would probably poop on the floor (or knowing her, more likely, on a current WIP).
For my money, plenty of good music has come out of GIA—music I'd much rather sing in church than Mozart, frankly.
Yes, I know. It's heresy. I love Bach. I love Vaughan-Williams. I love much of the great body of traditional sacred music. And I readily acknowledge that Mozart was a genius. But with a few exceptions—Die Zauberflöte comes to mind—his music leaves me pretty cold. Very cold, actually. It just doesn't do anything for me, whether I'm singing it or hearing it. It certainly doesn't help me worship.
Mozart is without a doubt good music, in the Duke Ellington sense. Some (certainly not all, to be sure) modern hymns and sacred music from publishers such as GIA are also good music. That doesn't mean that either Mozart or the GIA music will be everyone's preference. And as far as I'm concerned, that's really okay.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
BBC R4's programme 'Soul Music' (it may have been on the World Service) last week was about 'Amazing Grace', and along with the biography of John Newton, there came a snatch of the words sung to 'The House of the Rising Sun' of which I wanted to hear more.
And not just for reminding me of 'One Song to the Tune of Another' as heard on 'I'm Sorry, I Haven't a Clue'.
[ 28. June 2016, 21:12: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Svitlana V2 (on 10 June):
quote:
What happened to that Wild Goose stuff?
I was at a fundraiser for our food bank tonight. At the end it was announced that a forthcoming fundraiser is going to be a visit from John Bell who will lead an evening of Wild Goose singing.
If enough Shipmates fancy travelling to the North East of Scotland in November, we could have a Wild Goose shipmeet!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
The service I attended on Sunday included some Wild Goose music. There's actually a good representation of John Bell and Wild Goose in the new Presbyterian hymnal. (Incidentally, in the Statss, Wild Goose music is published by the afore-mentioned GIA,)
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
The service I attended on Sunday included some Wild Goose music. There's actually a good representation of John Bell and Wild Goose in the new Presbyterian hymnal. (Incidentally, in the Statss, Wild Goose music is published by the afore-mentioned GIA,)
Sigh... WG songs are among my favourites, but our minister thinks they are sort of funny - OK for old people. I argued that we need to be able to sing and remember our songs, and folk tunes are one of the best ways to do that. His response was, "I'm not having any bar-room songs in my church!" He likes vacuous Jesusjesusjesus type lyrics with the band pounding out instantly forgettable migraine style music. When we plead for something we can all sing, he punishes us with Victorian stained-glass horror hymns that are just as bad. My best John Bell quote is, "What we sing ends up being what we believe, in a more profound way than what we hear", and I am sure he is right.
It is stinking hot here today and I am in a foul temper. The minister had better not call.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
The service I attended on Sunday included some Wild Goose music. There's actually a good representation of John Bell and Wild Goose in the new Presbyterian hymnal. (Incidentally, in the Statss, Wild Goose music is published by the afore-mentioned GIA,)
Sigh... WG songs are among my favourites, but our minister thinks they are sort of funny - OK for old people. I argued that we need to be able to sing and remember our songs, and folk tunes are one of the best ways to do that. His response was, "I'm not having any bar-room songs in my church!" He likes vacuous Jesusjesusjesus type lyrics with the band pounding out instantly forgettable migraine style music. When we plead for something we can all sing, he punishes us with Victorian stained-glass horror hymns that are just as bad. My best John Bell quote is, "What we sing ends up being what we believe, in a more profound way than what we hear", and I am sure he is right.
It is stinking hot here today and I am in a foul temper. The minister had better not call.
Have you considered a horse's head in his bed?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Anyone here know how many hymns Fanny Crosby, Charles Wesley or even Isaac Watts wrote?
Any idea how many of these sung today?
Jengie
[ 13. July 2016, 13:12: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I think there are two problems with (some) WG songs.
1. My wife - who is Scottish - simply cannot dissociate the folk tunes from the traditional words. I, being English, don't have this difficulty. Germans probably had the same issue with Luther's hymns.
2. Some of them (and this is a criticism that could be levelled at some of Andrew Pratt, Fred Kaan or Brian Wren's stuff too) have words which are full of meaning and extremely "worthy" but which, in my view, don't feel quite right for congregational singing. But I can't quite put my finger on the reason why.
The other thing I would say is that (on "Songs of Praise" anyway) they seem to have entirely displaced the metrical psalms, which I think is a shame. That may not be true of ordinary church life, of course.
[ 13. July 2016, 13:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I think there are two problems with (some) WG songs.
1. My wife - who is Scottish - simply cannot dissociate the folk tunes from the traditional words. I, being English, don't have this difficulty. Germans probably had the same issue with Luther's hymns.
2. Some of them (and this is a criticism that could be levelled at some of Andrew Pratt, Fred Kaan or Brian Wren's stuff too) have words which are full of meaning and extremely "worthy" but which, in my view, don't feel quite right for congregational singing. But I can't quite put my finger on the reason why.
The other thing I would say is that (on "Songs of Praise" anyway) they seem to have entirely displaced the metrical psalms, which I think is a shame. That may not be true of ordinary church life, of course.
I have thought much about your point 2 as well, and have concluded that these writers are not always poets and perhaps don't aim to be. I wonder if a problem for some of us is that memorable poetry is missing from a lot of modern hymns? My own analysis of a good hymn looks for its poetry, spirituality and musicality. It doesn't have to have any of those features, of course, but for it to be memorable and useful as a sung prayer, I think some of them have to be present. But I am just an engineer; not a poet, musician or preacher. I like stuff that works and keeps on working.
Your point 1 works both ways. I've never been able to sing "What a friend we have in Jesus" since I saw "Oh What a Lovely War".
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Your point 1 works both ways. I've never been able to sing "What a friend we have in Jesus" since I saw "Oh What a Lovely War".
Indeed! There's also the problem with "All Creatures of our God and King" if you've ever seen "Mr. Bean goes to church" (about 7m40s into the video).
[ 13. July 2016, 14:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
WG songs are among my favourites, but our minister thinks they are sort of funny - OK for old people. I argued that we need to be able to sing and remember our songs, and folk tunes are one of the best ways to do that. His response was, "I'm not having any bar-room songs in my church!" He likes vacuous Jesusjesusjesus type lyrics with the band pounding out instantly forgettable migraine style music. When we plead for something we can all sing, he punishes us with Victorian stained-glass horror hymns that are just as bad.
I find it fascinating that ministers can have such a level of power that they can impose their musical taste on a congregation that doesn't share it at all. In the tradition I come from this just wouldn't be possible.
[ 13. July 2016, 14:28: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I think there are two problems with (some) WG songs.
1. My wife - who is Scottish - simply cannot dissociate the folk tunes from the traditional words. I, being English, don't have this difficulty. Germans probably had the same issue with Luther's hymns.
I have heard John Bell say that what your wife's experience is, to some extent, intentional. That is to say, the tunes used were often chosen specifically because of the pre-existing associations, in mood at least if not in exact text. A prime example is "Were I the Perfect Child of God," a baptismal hymn that speaks of the singer's* unworthiness and God's acceptance anyway. The tune used was "Gin I Were a Baron's Heir," which speaks of the singer's unworthiness for the woman he loves. It was an intentional pairing, to tap into associations of the tune with deep longing rooted in imperfection.
* I share your view that sometimes these songs work better, or take deeper meaning, when sung individually rather than by a congregation. But the same can, I think, be said of many traditional hymns. Part of it simply comes from being written in first person singular.
[ 13. July 2016, 15:16: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
That's interesting, Nick, and reinforces a feeling I've had for some time about John Bell's music. ,
Most of us outside Scotland don't have any knowledge or experience of these folk tunes. They are as utterly without content as a simple ascending scale of one octave. So we experience them without context and, it must be said, as completely new music. Not in itself a bad thing, but it means there is a very steep learning curve and very few guideposts as to what the melody sounds like. For many of us, even those experience in church music of many sorts, they aren't simple and easy -- they're damned difficult.
I think, in fact, that \Bell is writing for SCotland. Ad I would be willing to say that apart from a very few things, that's where they should stay.
An unrelated point, by the way: I think a second problem is that many of Bell's lyrics (and those of other modern hymnwriters) it that they are in fact just intended to teach the singers what they ought to believe or do. There's an element of this in many other hymns, but I do so miss any sense that the singers are using the music to praise God, rather than simply to tell themselves or remind themselves of what they ought to be thinking or doing -- for unstated reasons.
JOhn
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
I think a second problem is that many of Bell's lyrics (and those of other modern hymnwriters) it that they are in fact just intended to teach the singers what they ought to believe or do. There's an element of this in many other hymns, but I do so miss any sense that the singers are using the music to praise God, rather than simply to tell themselves or remind themselves of what they ought to be thinking or doing -- for unstated reasons.
But don't many of Wesley's hymns in particular (and also some of Watts') have a very similar didactic purpose - although usually more in terms of "correct belief" than "correct praxis"?
And isn't Bell trying to teach us the general point that social issues should not be kept outside the area of Christian worship? I would have thought that was a pretty fundamental tenet of Iona's theology.
Nevertheless it can get tedious if laboured each Sunday!
[ 13. July 2016, 16:04: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Most of us outside Scotland don't have any knowledge or experience of these folk tunes. ... So we experience them without context and, it must be said, as completely new music.
Yes. But that would be true of any folk or indigenous music recently adapted to hymnody and used in an international context. Following your line of thought rigidly would mean not being able to use quite a lot of German, French, American (etc.) stuff outside its immediate context. Yet surely one of the great gifts to church hymnody in recent years has come via the use of world music.
You, of course, have every right to disagree!
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Most of us outside Scotland don't have any knowledge or experience of these folk tunes. They are as utterly without content as a simple ascending scale of one octave. So we experience them without context and, it must be said, as completely new music. Not in itself a bad thing, but it means there is a very steep learning curve and very few guideposts as to what the melody sounds like. For many of us, even those experience in church music of many sorts, they aren't simple and easy -- they're damned difficult.
I'm not sure about "most of us outside Scotland." Perhaps it's where I live—the American South, where our own folk music was heavily influenced by Scottish folk music—or perhaps it's even a side-effect of being Presbyterian, where there's a Scottishness in the DNA, but in my experience people here find the tunes fairly easy to sing, even if they're unfamiliar at first. For many of us, there's something about them that sounds familiar even when they're not familiar.
quote:
I think, in fact, that \Bell is writing for SCotland. Ad I would be willing to say that apart from a very few things, that's where they should stay.
As to your first point, I think Bell might agree and might take it a little further. I've heard him talk about how some of these hymns were written as reactions to specific events in Scottish life, so their immediate purpose was to give Scottish people songs to sing in response to those events.
That said, I tend to agree with Baptist Trainfan. That doesn't mean they should be confined to Scotland if people elsewhere find them helpful and meaningful.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
That's interesting, Nick, and reinforces a feeling I've had for some time about John Bell's music. ,
Most of us outside Scotland don't have any knowledge or experience of these folk tunes. They are as utterly without content as a simple ascending scale of one octave. So we experience them without context and, it must be said, as completely new music. Not in itself a bad thing, but it means there is a very steep learning curve and very few guideposts as to what the melody sounds like. For many of us, even those experience in church music of many sorts, they aren't simple and easy -- they're damned difficult.
I think, in fact, that \Bell is writing for SCotland. Ad I would be willing to say that apart from a very few things, that's where they should stay.
An unrelated point, by the way: I think a second problem is that many of Bell's lyrics (and those of other modern hymnwriters) it that they are in fact just intended to teach the singers what they ought to believe or do. There's an element of this in many other hymns, but I do so miss any sense that the singers are using the music to praise God, rather than simply to tell themselves or remind themselves of what they ought to be thinking or doing -- for unstated reasons.
JOhn
John Bell's hymns seem to be very popular in Canada and the rest of north America, and his workshops tend to be well attended. I don't think this is entirely because of the frequent Scottish connections, but more to do with the careful choice of music with its roots in different folk traditions, that by its nature, is singable by all kinds of people. (His book on congregational singing is good reading for musicians and encouragement for those of us who thought we were musically crippled).
I will admit that one of my happiest moments in a church was the first time I sang "Will you come and follow me", to the tune I had known since I was perhaps 3 years old. It was as if I had just been given permission to bring my favourite toy to school with me, except that I was in my late forties at the time.
As to praise songs, I know the Bible tells us we ought to praise the Lord, which is fine and good, but we also need the prayers that are embodied in the better hymns. Six praise songs in a row don't get the message across any better than any one of them, especially if one line is repeated eleven times. Having endured that recently, I know whereof I rant.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I think there are two problems with (some) WG songs.
1. My wife - who is Scottish - simply cannot dissociate the folk tunes from the traditional words. I, being English, don't have this difficulty. Germans probably had the same issue with Luther's hymns...
Another issue is not being able to separate the new words from the traditional tunes. For example, I learned “Lord of the Dance” at a church youth conference before I ever heard “Simple Gifts.” Now if I hear “Simple Gifts” (or “Appalachian Spring,” since Copland also borrowed that tune), I can’t help but think of the “Lord of the Dance” lyrics.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
That's interesting, Nick, and reinforces a feeling I've had for some time about John Bell's music. ,
Most of us outside Scotland don't have any knowledge or experience of these folk tunes. They are as utterly without content as a simple ascending scale of one octave. So we experience them without context and, it must be said, as completely new music. Not in itself a bad thing, but it means there is a very steep learning curve and very few guideposts as to what the melody sounds like. For many of us, even those experience in church music of many sorts, they aren't simple and easy -- they're damned difficult.
I think, in fact, that \Bell is writing for SCotland. Ad I would be willing to say that apart from a very few things, that's where they should stay.
An unrelated point, by the way: I think a second problem is that many of Bell's lyrics (and those of other modern hymnwriters) it that they are in fact just intended to teach the singers what they ought to believe or do. There's an element of this in many other hymns, but I do so miss any sense that the singers are using the music to praise God, rather than simply to tell themselves or remind themselves of what they ought to be thinking or doing -- for unstated reasons.
JOhn
John Bell's hymns seem to be very popular in Canada and the rest of north America, and his workshops tend to be well attended. I don't think this is entirely because of the frequent Scottish connections, but more to do with the careful choice of music with its roots in different folk traditions, that by its nature, is singable by all kinds of people. (His book on congregational singing is good reading for musicians and encouragement for those of us who thought we were musically crippled).
I will admit that one of my happiest moments in a church was the first time I sang "Will you come and follow me", to the tune I had known since I was perhaps 3 years old. It was as if I had just been given permission to bring my favourite toy to school with me, except that I was in my late forties at the time.
As to praise songs, I know the Bible tells us we ought to praise the Lord, which is fine and good, but we also need the prayers that are embodied in the better hymns. Six praise songs in a row don't get the message across any better than any one of them, especially if one line is repeated eleven times. Having endured that recently, I know whereof I rant.
Just to clarify -- Holy Holy Holy sung to Nicaea and Crown Him With Many Crowns sung to Diademata are the types of praise hymn I was thinking of in the context of this discussion. I made no mention of the kind of "praise song" that you comment about. I have no idea why your thought I would consider that the options were either didactic hymns a la John Bell and others or quasi charismatic "praise songs".
John
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
It was just a remark - not a comment. I should have made it clearer that I was referring to the current popular genre of lightweight praise songs rather than the praise hymns that enrich worship for all of us. Plus my brain is even slower than usual today in this confounded 34°C heat.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Baptist Trainfan started a thread in AS that was really more suited to adding into this thread so I'll tell you the story so far:
Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
A certain gentleman whose name seems strangely familiar has written an article about unintentionally rude hymns for the latest edition of the URC's magazine "Reform".
Seeing that, some years ago, my wife went through the then latest edition of "Songs of Fellowship" marking the double-entendres (well, someone has to do it), I felt that we might have an enlightening time adding to the example quoted. Please note that I am not thinking of intentionally rude rewrites of old lyrics!
Zappa:
quote:
(possibly heavenly, but ...) surely "Jesus Take Me As I Am" (*shudder*) takes the entrendical cake?
Pigwidgeon:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
(possibly heavenly, but ...) surely "Jesus Take Me As I Am" (*shudder*) takes the entrendical cake?
I couldn't bear to watch the video, so I found the lyrics instead.
Huia:
quote:
Zappa that is truly dreadful.
I remember being really embarrassed as a teenager singing "Just as I am... Oh Lamb of God I come, I come" [Hot and Hormonal]
If to the pure in heart all things are pure then I guess I'm not.
Huia
Mousethief:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
(possibly heavenly, but ...) surely "Jesus Take Me As I Am" (*shudder*) takes the entrendical cake?
I couldn't bear to watch the video, so I found the lyrics instead.
[Projectile]
Holy Bagumba that had to have been on purpose.
Huia:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
(possibly heavenly, but ...) surely "Jesus Take Me As I Am" (*shudder*) takes the entrendical cake?
I couldn't bear to watch the video, so I found the lyrics instead.
[Projectile]
I need the brain bleach now . I feel like I've been watching some really sleazy porn.
Go to it folks!
WW - AS Host.
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Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes and the change of "a" to "my" would make it innocuous (or even just change the verse order).
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've just listened to 'Cauliflowers Fluffy', and it seems like one more cheerful kids' song. It has a lot of likes, so someone approves of it!
The strange thing about it, though, is that it's just a list of fruit and veg, with no element of thanksgiving attached, not even to Mother Nature let alone to God.
I'm quoting myself here, but only to say that at an infant baptism last week I sang 'Cauliflowers Fluffy' for the first time.
Perky little children's song, but apart from the babe in arms there were no children present. We sang it for harvest, but it clearly isn't a hymn.
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Abigail
Shipmate
# 1672
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Posted
I don't know if it's been mentioned here before but we sang a song this morning called, I think, "Your love is amazing". Some bits I remember:
Your love is amazing, steady and unchanging...
Every time I see you, all your goodness shines through...
I found the line: "I can feel this God song rising up in me" particularly .
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The older I get the less I know.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Abigail:
I don't know if it's been mentioned here before but we sang a song this morning called, I think, "Your love is amazing".
Oh, that one's been mentioned here all right. In fact, it's mentioned quite a lot over here.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Dare I say that we sang a song called "Don't be too busy for Christmas" at today's Family Parade Service?
It went down very well.
[ 11. December 2016, 19:36: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I first encountered Don't be too busy for Christmas 2 years ago when it was scheduled for a child-and-grandparent carol thing at a local church (not my own).
When I arrived I was met with a photocopied sheet containing lyrics only, no indication of tunes (and no copyright information either) and a dim incumbent who came out with the I thought you people just turned up and played line. The more trad(ish) items were fine but DBTBFC was a stumbling block until, searching through the crap heap at the back of the vestry I came upon a 1940s song book and discovered that DBTBFC can be sung to the chorus of that well-known Arthur Askey number Kiss me goodnight sergeant-major ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
[ 12. December 2016, 11:10: Message edited by: L'organist ]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Ah, well, we used the "set" tune, arranged for a small mixed-ability music group of adults and children using a variety of instruments: flute, clarinets, violin, trumpet, guitar and violin, backed by piano (we didn't use the organ for it).
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
actually there was only one violin! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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