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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Circus: Mafia Part II: La Cosa Nova
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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
# 1654
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Posted
My disappointment was with votings not turning into lynchings.
My suggestion would be to take the majority from those who actually vote within the 24 hours, not those who are eligible to vote.
for example, if there are 19 players, then 10 votes would be enough for an absolute majority. If 4 people abstain, this should reduce the majority level to 8.
It is also hampered by having 3 nominations. Again using the 19 player example, the rules would state that a majority of 10 is needed for a lynching. but chances are (unless everyone piles on someone) the votes will be split, with people probably getting 5-6 votes each, depending on abstentions.
would it be too bloodthirsty/unfair, to go the whole hog and just say that whoever has the most votes by the end of the period gets lynched anyway (except in times of a tie) ?
[ 21. November 2006, 11:05: Message edited by: Wet Kipper ]
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- insert randomly chosen, potentially Deep and Meaningful™ song lyrics here -
Posts: 9841 | From: further up the Hill | Registered: Nov 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
No-one seemed to get the '&!' for 'and not', and no-one got both the quotes right at the same time. Gumby was nearest with the Macbeth quote 'Who must hang them? Why, the honest men.'
As it happens, the exclamation mark was something that I realised I'd missed, but by the time I got to the PC to mention it, I'd been bumped off. I don't suppose that sounds very convincing after all this time, does it? I thought about sticking something about it in my death scene, but decided to leave it in the end, as we'd been told more or less what was going on by then.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Rugmaker
Shipmate
# 10728
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
My disappointment was with votings not turning into lynchings.
My suggestion would be to take the majority from those who actually vote within the 24 hours, not those who are eligible to vote.
for example, if there are 19 players, then 10 votes would be enough for an absolute majority. If 4 people abstain, this should reduce the majority level to 8.
It is also hampered by having 3 nominations. Again using the 19 player example, the rules would state that a majority of 10 is needed for a lynching. but chances are (unless everyone piles on someone) the votes will be split, with people probably getting 5-6 votes each, depending on abstentions.
would it be too bloodthirsty/unfair, to go the whole hog and just say that whoever has the most votes by the end of the period gets lynched anyway (except in times of a tie) ?
I agree. It would help give the citizens a bit more of a chance. Having now played the game from both sides, it does seem to me to be weighted towards the bad guys somewhat - they are guaranteed to kill someone every night and they know mist of what's going on.
It would also stop the strategy of disrupting a vote by not voting, particularly in the latter stages. If there are 4 players left, 2 mafia, 2 not, and both mafiosi are nominated, one of them is then likely to go whatever happens!
I think there should always be 3 nominations allowed though - any less makes it easy for the bad guys to quickly nominate others and avoid getting lynched themselves. The game should never hinge too much on who is online at the right moment and posts first, though inevtiably there will always be some element of this.
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Waiting to think of something witty to put here.
Posts: 1319 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2005
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
Very well played, 'Ndrangheta ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) .
I think it's a harder game for the citizens having two gangs - not just because there are more murders (most of which will be citizens), but also because there is much less disparity of interest between innocent and guilty voters. Both sets of criminals have goals that substantially overlap with the townsfolk (basically, everyone has an interest in lynching people they don't know about). Looking back over the thread and identifying voting patterns is hard enough even when you know who's guilty.
I'm surprised and impressed that Autenreith Road got aware with such blatent stirring an manipulation for so long. I was always a little suspicious of her (I remember last year's Cluedo, too, AR) especially since she voted for nem on turn 1. And then she changed her position on voting for Banner Lady and then Rugmaker without any cogent explanation. But she played it so confidently I'm not sure when I'd've called her on it if I'd still been in the game. I started off by voicing what seemed at the time to be a more certain analysis:
quote:
Papa Smurf is probably not a 'Ndrinu, Watchman or Mason ... he's probably not a Mafioso, either.
[and]
I think there's likely to be a higher proportion of Mafiosi amongst the 5 people who didn't vote (AnnaF, basso, dolphy, Linguo, Papa Smurf) than the 17 who did. I'm not saying they are all guilty, not by any means, not even that most of them are, but I have a shrewd feeling that they'll be one or two of the Mafia in that group.
..which I observe with some satisfaction was spot on. And, of course, I never got a chance to say anything else.
In the end game (that is, after the Mafia were wiped out), I was pretty sure of Banner Lady (because her unopposed nomination suggested the mobs were happy, as Wet Kipper pointed out) and Leonato (because he identified Basso), and had a hunch about Lamb Chopped (the undead thing seemed unlikely for a gangster trying to lie low). I hadn't decided between CuppaT and Rugmaker. I was never absolutely sure that AR was ‘Ndrinu, but I thought she was the most likely.
I'm still unsure whether it was the right decision to ‘out' the Masons on turn 1. I'd hoped we could use a powerful block-vote of 4 innocents, but with 2 dead on the first night, that couldn't happen. I hoped that at least one known Mason would survive (some help from the Watchman would have been appreciated here!) and that the Detective could then feed information through nem or I without compromising his or her identity. But if anyone picked up that particular ball, their subtlety was lost on me.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
What Really Happened in Cosenza Beach
To recap: the Mafiosi were Chelley, christianjimmy and dolphy; the 'Ndrangheta were Autenrieth Road, basso and Rugmaker; the Masons were Eliab, Fool of a Took, nem and The Great Gumby; Izzybee was the Detective; and Linguo was the Watchman.
On the first night, the 'Ndrini went after Fool of a Took, and the Mafiosi went after Dr Gumby. Purely by coincidence, both victims were Masons. This led to the lynching of Sir Kevin. (I was sorry about that. The poor guy made two very early exits in the two games played.) It also precipitated the first role-claim of the game, with Eliab and nem identified as Masons. The lynching unnerved comet, the fortune-teller, who left town that night.
I think each gang must have suspected that the other was behind the role-claiming, because all six gangsters went straight round to Eliab's boat after nightfall. I can't now remember which faction I formally awarded the kill to, but Eliab's death scene, quite unprovoked, contained the suggestion that two people had acted independently. Meanwhile, both the detective and the watchman were staking out nem's place, where all was quiet.
The folliwng day saw the first, and loneliest, attempt to lynch Banner Lady. Dolphy decided to drop out, and suggested a public suicide as a good way of doing so while keeping the players guessing. (This is consistent with the RL rule that, if you drop your card, you're deemed to have committed suicide.) With admirable consistency, the Detective and the Watchman both went round to her place that evening to see if either gang would make good on the apparent threat. The 'Ndrini, in fact, did away with AnnaF, while the Mafiosi saw to Stevie Boy Wonder. Izzybee dropped by Banner Lady's place, and assured herself of her innocence.
Banner Lady escaped lynching again the next day, as did leonato and Wet Kipper. Christianjimmy suggested to me that he might drop out too, and before the devil on his shoulder could persuade him that he could just lie low instead, he too had ended it all. That night, lone gunman Chelley went and offed basso. (I have no idea whether she knew he was 'Ndrinu or not.) Everyone else went round to Wet Kipper's place ... except for the Watchman, who was busily protecting that upstanding citizen, er, Chelley.
Zorro was lynched the following day, despite the continued attempts of surviving Mason nem to hang Banner Lady. The following night, Izzybee followed Autenrieth Road and determined her status as a gangster. Unfortunately, she was caught in the act, which is why she was prevented from giving a more explicit clue to her murderer's identity. The Mafiosi, meanwhile, picked off Pure Sunshine. The morning after, the 'Ndrini nominated Watchman Linguo to be lynched, and got away with it, which probably made all the difference in the endgame.
That night, the 'Nrdini continued their reign of terror by disposing of the surviving Mafiosa, who had herself just whacked Smudgie. Lamb Chopped's lynching followed rapidly, and then the 'Ndrini adopted a policy of assassinating known innocents. Nem was the first to go, and after deliberately splitting the vote, they followed up with Banner Lady. A second split vote secured the mastery of the town for the 'Ndrangheta, and Doña Autenrieth's fiendish property development plan...
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
Incidentally, I think Teufelchen could have called the game one round sooner. It was theoretically possible (if the 'Ndrangheta had screwed up) to have one of them lynched when it was 2 vs. 2, but even so, one of the surviving citizens would have died that night, leaving the teams 1 vs. 1, with no lynching possible, and a ‘Ndrinu as the last man standing next day.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Incidentally, I think Teufelchen could have called the game one round sooner. It was theoretically possible (if the 'Ndrangheta had screwed up) to have one of them lynched when it was 2 vs. 2, but even so, one of the surviving citizens would have died that night, leaving the teams 1 vs. 1, with no lynching possible, and a ‘Ndrinu as the last man standing next day.
Not so: the previous day, five people - Autenrieth Road, Banner Lady, CuppaT, leonato and Rugmaker - were alive, and only two were mobsters. Three nominations were allowed, so a Citizen could have nominated a mobster, and all three Citizens voted to lynch that person. There would then have been three citizens and one gangster that night, and thus two citizens and a gangster in the morning. With two nominations allowed, the citizens could still have nominated and lynched the final 'Ndrinu.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Izzybee
Shipmate
# 10931
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Posted
Arghhh!
Do you all know how hard it is to butt out of something once you're "dead", when you know who one of the gangsters is?!
I found out about Autenrieth Road the same night I died. Teufelchen was nice enough to let me post a vague hint in my death scene, but at the same time I didn't want to give the game totally away.
Great game - I had fun. Thanks Teufelchen, and everyone else who played.
ETA: Autenrieth, you did so well - once I knew it was you, I saw just exactly how well you were bending the game. Kudos to you!
[ 21. November 2006, 11:57: Message edited by: Izzybee ]
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Hate filled bitch musings...
Posts: 1336 | From: Baltimore, MD | Registered: Jan 2006
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Chelley
Ship's Old Boot
# 11322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
What Really Happened in Cosenza Beach
...That night, lone gunman Chelley went and offed basso. (I have no idea whether she knew he was 'Ndrinu or not.)
Well, I didn't know but I was highly suspicious (gut feeling maybe?) so was rather chuffed with myself to have got one of them, even though taking out the barman totally wrecked my party plans! (Thought that might be a helpful cover anyway).
quote:
Everyone else went round to Wet Kipper's place ... except for the Watchman, who was busily protecting that upstanding citizen, er, Chelley.
That was very nice of linguo... thanks ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"
Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who
Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
Thinking about varying the voting rules...how about this:
"If more than half (rounded up) of the eligible voters either fail to vote within the alloted time, or formally abstain, no-one is lynched. If two nominees tie for the largest number of votes at the end of the voting period, no-one is lynched. Otherwise, the nominee with the largest number of votes is lynched."
What do players think?
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chelley
Ship's Old Boot
# 11322
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Posted
How is that different to what happens already? (Sorry, I have my dunce's hat at the ready!!)
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"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"
Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who
Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
The current voting rule is effectively:
"Anyone who is voted for by more than half the eligible voters is lynched. Anyone who is voted for by exactly half the eligible voters is lynched unless the other half either all vote for the same other candidate, or all abstain. Otherwise, no-one is lynched."
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Rugmaker
Shipmate
# 10728
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Posted
Sounds good to me. Should increase the chance of a lynching without letting a bizarre result happen because of a very low turnout for some reason.
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Waiting to think of something witty to put here.
Posts: 1319 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2005
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Chelley
Ship's Old Boot
# 11322
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Posted
Where'd I put that hat then? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"
Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who
Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
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Posted
I actually like the majority wins voting rules the way they are. The impetus is on us all to rally forces and participate. If someone is silent on purpose, then we can read meaning into that. If people are let off the hook from voting, then many could play at their convenience and walk in and out of game play. Let's face it; those of us who played, for as long as we were in the game, kept up with it quite regularly.
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Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
Posts: 919 | From: the edge of the Ozarks | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I picked up on the &!, but never quite worked out which the proper pairs of quotes were; and I didn't want to say anything because one interpretation implied too much about the Mafia and 'Ndrinu, which I didn't want to draw any attention to.
Izzybee, your death scene completely terrified me! Guilty conscience had me convinced it was pointing to me; then I did so much obfuscating & arguing the other way to protect myself that I just about convinced myself it was not a message at all.
Lamb Chopped's death scene: ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) .
Eliab, I was terrified of your logic and was determined to assassinate you very quickly! I was convinced by the logic of it that you and nem were truthfully Masons, (the Bad Guys can't sensibly claim to be another actual Role, because that tips that Role off that they're lying Bad Guys), and after voting for nem was then waiting for an appropriate point to put in my "arrgh" comment pretending to have only just realized that point.
I kept on getting confused in the first vote and thinking it was Sir Kevin, Eliab, and nem nominated rather than the actual Sir Kevin, Zorro and nem (because I was thinking so much about the Masons) -- I regret that because after I'd "argghed" and "realized" nem had to be a Mason, I should have pointed a finger at Zorro, because I wanted Sir Kevin to get a chance to play longer in this round.
I became convinced Banner Lady was innocent because of Izzybee's comment about her innocence, (in fact that triggered Izzybee's assassination, because it pegged Izzybee as the Detective), but it was convenient to be able to raise questions about that, which CuppaT then picked up.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I'm surprised and impressed that Autenreith Road got aware with such blatent stirring an manipulation for so long.
Blatant? Blatant? I prefer to call it living your cover as an innocent citizen trying very hard to find the bad guys ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
quote:
I was always a little suspicious of her (I remember last year's Cluedo, too, AR) especially since she voted for nem on turn 1. And then she changed her position on voting for Banner Lady and then Rugmaker without any cogent explanation.
Although Smudgie also voted for Banner Lady very quickly at one point without any explanation, which had me quite suspicious of Smudgie all the way until Chelley killed her. Curiously enough, almost everyone changed their position on Banner Lady between the first and second BL votes!
quote:
But she played it so confidently I'm not sure when I'd've called her on it if I'd still been in the game.
Thanks ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) . It's been quite a learning experience playing this role. It had me thinking a lot about Kim Philby and Tim Powers' Declare that we read earlier in the Ship's Book Group, about living your cover. And filtering everything through a mix of truth, with a bit of fibs salted in as necessary to turn attention elsewhere, and then double-thinking it for whether it might raise a theory that could point back at what Rugmaker and I were doing, in which case I had to deep-six it and think of something else to say.
CuppaT mentioned getting friendly too fast; I think I would play similar even if I were a Citizen -- I had a long thought at the beginning about laying low and not attracting attention, vs. thinking the game is more fun if people are participating and role-playing at least even if not theorizing. After Banner Lady posted her "thanking people for making her laugh" comment I decided to be more wide-open in my participation.
[ 21. November 2006, 14:26: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
I confess I enjoyed the game not because of the tactics at all (of which I am usually oblivious although I was sure at the end rugmaker was an enemy) but the role-playing. I enjoyed Gumby and Eliab's posts very much, so I was sorry to see them go early. I would have lost interest very quickly after that if AR and Stevie hadn't kept me amused. Lamb Chopped and Basso should get posthumous awards for the best one-liners in the game.
On my wish list for next time is a clockface and a calendar on each page (or in each post of the gamehost) because the global differences in timezones always had me confused. There must be some way to monitor the time better - and perhaps that would help the game to flow faster, even allowing for weekends (which means 3 days of quieter traffic realistically).
Perhaps Papa Kipper could tell us if that is feasible?
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
On my wish list for next time is a clockface and a calendar on each page (or in each post of the gamehost) because the global differences in timezones always had me confused. There must be some way to monitor the time better - and perhaps that would help the game to flow faster, even allowing for weekends (which means 3 days of quieter traffic realistically).
Every post already reports, in its header, the time it was posted according to your local time. This was why, in the first game, I abandoned references to my local clock, and simply said that things would happen X hours after the current post. That way, everyone should just be able to count on the appropriate number of hours from the time they see on their own screens, and work out when things would actually happen.
Does that help at all?
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
I have to admit that I was completely out to sea the first time I saw this game played, but was following along a lot better this time. Autumn had me totally fooled till near the end with the flaming red glitter hint . I suspected dear Dorothy instead (ooops). Well played 'Ndrinu, especially being speedy on the nominating fingers .
Teufelchen, could you please explain (or point out where I missed) the suicide pact thing?
Also, were the Masons a group of citizens who knew who each other were? Part of the tension of the game is, of course, the "some of us have information the others of you don't".
Charlotte
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
I rest my case that I am not the most observant player. Yes T, that helps a lot. I must have missed where you originally said the bit about the times.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Every post already reports, in its header, the time it was posted according to your local time.
Provided that the user has set their profile to adjust that to show their local time. (You can test if you've got your profile adjusted correctly by checking the time displayed right after you post, and then see if that agrees with your real clock at home.)
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Teufelchen, could you please explain (or point out where I missed) the suicide pact thing?
There never was any pact. It was just that both Mafiosi who wanted to leave the game did so quite dramatically.
quote:
Also, were the Masons a group of citizens who knew who each other were?
Exactly. Rolled-up trouser legs, the works. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'll be posting a truly exhaustive (and exhausting) list of roles tomorrow.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Stevie Boy Wonder
Shipmate
# 11869
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Posted
A thoroughly enjoyable game, albeit one I went out of much earlier than I wanted to (but much later than I expected to). With hindsight, I know I was quite overzealous at first, throwing wild accusations about (sorry nem) without thinking them through much, and that probably aroused some suspicion. But towards the end, with the whole Rugmaker/Leonato mutual accusation thing, Leonato's arguments looked so well rounded to me, and Rugmaker's defence of them so leaky, I had to bite my tongue hard not to chip in from beyond the grave, "For crying out loud, Rugmaker's as guilty as [insert clearly guilty criminal mastermind's name here]!"
As for the rules, I didn't really understand them at the start, but I wasn't going to tell any of you that , I got more of a grip on them as the game went on. I'd agree with the suggestion that the rules should be less strict regarding how many votes are needed and in what circumstances to authorise a lynching, as (although BL may have been bumped off considerably earlier) it would generally have made the game more interesting and less frustrating. The only other thing I'd recommend next time, is having a bit more information about the roles in the game, and what all the different groups of people were. Teufelchen, I can understand you trying to make the game more mysterious by keeping details to a minimum at first, but it did seem to cause a lot of confusion until Papa Kipper/Wet Smurf requested clarification of the set-up. But otherwise, a good game, well played and (as others have already said) made all the more enteraining by the characterisations.
Thanks Teuf for organising, Kipper (and Chorister) for humouring us all the way through what may have been an arduous thread at times, and everyone who played for making it so much fun. Let's do it again sometime...
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Jesus saves. But in the current economic climate, His pension probably won't be enough for eternity...
Also by the same author
Posts: 1599 | From: Wherever I lay my hat, that's my home | Registered: Sep 2006
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basso
Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228
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Posted
I decided after the second suicide that we were playing under the 'siblings' rule from the Wikipedia article - that each gangster had an unsuspected sibling whose death inspired a suicide on the part of the gangster. Teuf's hints about extra hints prompted a rereading of the article. Wrong, but a great theory...
It also made me prepare a third death scene in case I was called upon to commit suicide. But nobody picked up on the death I actually had to post.
We picked FoaT as our first killing purely at random (we even eliminated Sir K as a candidate because he'd gotten it so quickly in the previous round). Eliab was way too smart to survive - I think the Mafia decided the same thing.
Very enjoyable game, T. Thanks!
b.
Posts: 4358 | From: Bay Area, Calif | Registered: Mar 2003
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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
# 1654
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stevie Boy Wonder:
Let's do it again sometime...
something similar but different may come along soon
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- insert randomly chosen, potentially Deep and Meaningful™ song lyrics here -
Posts: 9841 | From: further up the Hill | Registered: Nov 2001
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
Cluedo? Cluedo? Please say it's Cluedo, Mr Wet Kipper sir, and you'll be on my list of favouritestest circus hosties for ever. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
# 1654
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Posted
just before Teufelchen started up the first Mafia game, I had been in discussion with my fellow Circus Host regarding the resurrection of Wink Murder.
That might be a little too like Mafia, so maybe a game of Cluedo next.
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- insert randomly chosen, potentially Deep and Meaningful™ song lyrics here -
Posts: 9841 | From: further up the Hill | Registered: Nov 2001
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
Oh my, I'd forgotten wink murder!!!
Cluedo first, then wink murder. I'll be a happy penguin from now until Christmas.
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Rugmaker
Shipmate
# 10728
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stevie Boy Wonder:
But towards the end, with the whole Rugmaker/Leonato mutual accusation thing, Leonato's arguments looked so well rounded to me, and Rugmaker's defence of them so leaky, I had to bite my tongue hard not to chip in from beyond the grave, "For crying out loud, Rugmaker's as guilty as [insert clearly guilty criminal mastermind's name here]!"
To be honest, I thought so too, and was at a bit of a loss how to respond at times. Late in the game it is also very dangerous to knock off someone who has been accusing you immediately without pointing to your own guilt. Leonato was a real thorn in the flesh for us at the end, but we managed to put him off just enough by AR and I nominating each other - high risk, high reward!
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Waiting to think of something witty to put here.
Posts: 1319 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2005
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Pure Sunshine
Shipmate
# 11904
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
just before Teufelchen started up the first Mafia game, I had been in discussion with my fellow Circus Host regarding the resurrection of Wink Murder.
That might be a little too like Mafia, so maybe a game of Cluedo next.
Ooh, these sound like fun. I'm not sure how either'd be played online, but I'm up for them regardless!
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Pure Sunshine by name, and sometimes by nature.
Posts: 472 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
Ok, as promised - my modus operandi as Moderator, along with the full rules as they currently stand:
Tiefling's Complete Guide to Mafia
These explanations will combine rules with methods, and mention variations that have not (yet) been used.
Basic Idea
Mafia, also known as Are You a Werewolf? is a game depicting a conflict between an informed minority and an uninformed majority. In the simplest version, the minority are called Mafia and the majority are called Citizens (or townspeople, villagers, or civilians). The Mafia begin with complete knowledge and the Citizens with none. Almost any variation to the game will alter this state somewhat. Each side wins when the other is eliminated or unable to act.
Setup
The roles are assigned by the Moderator, who oversees the game and does not play. Conventionally, this is done using playing cards. (Looney Labs produces a set of Werewolf cards, and there are various methods of using standard playing cards for Mafia roles available online.) I have used Microsoft Excel to assign the roles. This can be done by assigning a random number from the RAND() function to each player, and sorting the list of players by their random numbers, before matching the list to an alphabetical list of the chosen roles. Once the roles are assigned, everyone is told secretly (by private message) what role they have been given, and what its abilities and victory conditions are. The Mafia are identified to one another at this point.
The game typically begins with a brief 'evening' phase before the first night begins, as described below.
Game Play
The regular turn sequence consists of a night followed by a day.
During the night, each person who has been given a night action should take it. The Mafia have a night action which entitles them (as a group) to kill one other character. A nominated member of the Mafia (known as the Don or Godfather) sends the Moderator a PM with the name of the chosen victim. The Moderator then notifies the victim that he or she has been killed, and day begins. The person who was killed is out of the game. (Generally, the victim is expected to post a suitably dramatic death scene, and disclose what role they had been given.)
During the day, the players try to root out the Mafia in their midst. This is done by means of public lynching. (I know this is a gruesome concept, but it's very traditional in Mafia. You may imagine the victims being detained at length by an inefficient justice system if you prefer.) Once the previous night's victim has posted a death scene, players may begin to accuse one another of being Mafia. A formal accusation (as opposed to a careless suggestion of complicity) makes the accused eligible to be lynched that day. Once three nominations have been made, or a fixed time period elapses, nominations close.
The accused are then able to defend themselves, for a fixed period or until they are all satisfied that they have defended themselves (or their rivals incriminated themselves) enough. The players then all vote for who they would like to see lynched. One of the following two rules for majorities should be followed, as announced by the Moderator at the start of the game:
Simple majority: If more than half (rounded up) of the eligible voters either fail to vote within the alloted time, or formally abstain, no-one is lynched. If two nominees tie for the largest number of votes at the end of the voting period, no-one is lynched. Otherwise, the nominee with the largest number of votes is lynched.
Absolute majority: Anyone who is voted for by more than half the eligible voters is lynched. Anyone who is voted for by exactly half the eligible voters is lynched unless the other half either all vote for the same other candidate, or all abstain. Otherwise, no-one is lynched.
Length of Phases
Rules on the length of phases do not form an integral part of the rules, but should be clear to the players so that they know how fast they have to play. At present, the set lengths of the night, nomination and defence phases are each 24 hours. The voting phase was 36 hours in both the games just played, but could probably be increased to 48 hours. Because players may not all have access at weekends, the phases are somewhat extended. If it is night, the defence phase, or the voting phase at midnight on Friday, the next phase will not start until the Moderator's first post on Tuesday. If it is the nomination phase at midnight on Friday, nominations will remain open until three have been made, and defence will then last until the Moderator's first post on Tuesday.
The End-Game
If the Citizens lynch all the Mafia, the game ends immediately with a victory for the Citizens. If the Mafia, at nightfall, are equal or greater in number to the Citizens, the game ends in a victory for the Mafia. With additional roles, the end-game may be more complicated, but the fact that the citizens cannot resist an equal number of any other single faction is crucial.
Roles to follow in the next post...
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
Roles
Although the Mafia and Citizen roles outlined in the previous post are all that is essential to the game, it is usual to include one or more other roles, usually to provide the Citizens with information or protection. There may also be more than one 'hostile' group, and these will usually be hostile to each other. (This section contains more information than any one game will ever need - Citizen, Mafioso, Detective and Watchman/Doctor are by far the commonest roles. You can skip the rest if you like. A few untried roles and concepts follow in a subsequent post.)
Citizen: The default role. Citizens have no special abilities.
Mafia: The standard adversary. The Mafia faction may kill one person per night. Other Mafia-like factions may be added - these may be Mafia from different families, 'Ndrangheta, Tongs, Snakeheads, Triads, Yakuza, or any other kind of gangster. Usually, these groups form separate factions and are in competition against each other as well as against the Citizens. See also Werewolves.
Detective: A member of the Citizen faction. The Detective may, as a night action, ask the Moderator whether a given player is a Mafioso or a Citizen, and get an accurate answer. (Different gangsters all look alike to the Detective, and everyone else looks like a Citizen.) The Detective is sometimes referred to as the Angel or the Cop.
Watchman: A member of the Citizen faction. The Watchman may, as a night action, choose one player to defend from attack for that night. Any attack on someone protected by the Watchman will fail. The Watchman is sometimes referred to as the Doctor or the Archangel.
Mason: The Masons are members of the Citizen faction. The Masons are all at a lodge meeting on the first night, and can therefore attest to one another's innocence. They have no other night action. (As with Mafia, more than one group is possible - Odd Fellows, Scottish Rite Masons, etc.)
Werewolf: The Werewolves fulfil the same function in Are You a Werewolf? as the Mafia do in Mafia. (The Werewolf idea is originally due to Andrew Plotkin, who asks to be credited when it is used.) However, they are affected by a different set of roles. The Detective cannot detect Werewolves, and the Watchman cannot defend against them. (It's possible different werewolf tribes might exist, although this rumour has not yet been confirmed. It's likely that werewolves would only be able to defeat other werewolves if they had superior numbers.)
Seer: The Seer is the Werewolf equivalent of the Detective, and can detect Werewolves as a night action. The Seer cannot detect Mafiosi or other gangsters.
Alchemist: The Alchemist can defend one player per night against Werewolves with a preparation of wolfsbane. The Alchemist is the Werewolf counterpart of the Watchman/Doctor, and cannot protect against Mafiosi.
Number of Roles
In assigning roles, it is important to maintain balance. Personally, I would never make less than 2/3 of the players members of the Citizen faction, no matter what other advantages they were given. In the first game I moderated, there were only 2 Mafiosi out of 12 players, and they still achieved a flawless victory. In the second game, 6 out of the 24 starting players were gangsters, but split into two competing gangs of 3, and offset with Masons and a Watchman. Ideally, each gang should have at least 2 members. The Masons, if present, must have at least two members, and I recommend making them at least one member stronger than the largest gang. I'm not sure what weighting to give each of the other roles - weight of numbers seems to be the governing factor in balancing the factions.
The introduction of a second gang in the second game was intended to weaken the gangsters and give the citizens a positive motivation for not lynching anyone if they really didn't agree with any of the nominations. In the event, I'm not sure if this approach worked or not.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
And finally, the untried roles:
Cultist: The cultists, as a group, can recruit one person to join them each night. A successful recruit retains their powers, but joins the Cultist faction. If the cult attempts to recruit a mafioso or werewolf, the cultist doing the recruiting dies. The cult wins when everyone in town is in the Cultist faction, or if there are more cultists than citizens when the shooting stops. (More than one cult is possible. A cultist trying to recruit a member of another cult simply fails.) The detective can detect cultists, but I'm unsure as to whether the seer should be able to as well. The watchman, but not the alchemist, can defend against cult recruitment. Whereas the Masons should start out more numerous than the gangsters, the cultists should probably start out less so. A cult which belong to the citizen faction is also possible, and is known as the Neighbourhood Watch.
Caterer: A variation on the Detective, the Caterer can scrutinise one player's food order each night. This provides a coded clue to the player's identity - for example, the Mafia might always eat pizza. The Caterer is usually in the Citizen faction.
Vampire: Suited to the Werewolf setting, a Vampire would be expected to have the same power as the cultists, and to die if he tries recruiting a werewolf. This role is entirely untried, but it seems reasonable that a vampire who tries to recruit a gangster fails, but does not die. The seer can detect the vampire. I'm not sure whether to let the Alchemist defend against the Vampire with garlic, or to introduce a second 'defender' role, the Priest, who uses holy water. In the latter case, it might also be an idea to give the 'recruit' power only to the 'master' vampire, and not to the attendant recruits.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
I enjoyed Gumby and Eliab's posts very much, so I was sorry to see them go early.
I'm sure I'd have got steadily more boring if I'd had to keep it up for any length of time, though. At least there are some advantages to being bumped off early.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
Thoughts on openness:
My original gambit of trying to play an 'all roles secret' game clearly didn't work. Since then, I've thought more about how the Moderator should announce the roles.
1. If a role is in use, the Moderator must say so.
2. The Moderator may also announce the use of roles that are not in use, in order to confuse things.
3. There's no reason to say how many of each role exist.
Additionally, I'm aware of various roles which involve inaccurate information. Examples are the Miller, who's innocent, but looks guilty to the Detective, and various kinds of 'broken' Detectives who see the wrong people as guilty, or who see everyone as guilty. As a matter of policy, I will never use these roles. Aside from the difficulty they would create for me, I think they're quite unfair to the players. Therefore:
4. Each role's abilities will be correctly disclosed to the player who has that role.
5. The Moderator never lies in PMs.
T.
[ 22. November 2006, 10:39: Message edited by: Teufelchen ]
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
The introduction of a second gang in the second game was intended to weaken the gangsters and give the citizens a positive motivation for not lynching anyone if they really didn't agree with any of the nominations. In the event, I'm not sure if this approach worked or not.
I think it made the game very interesting, but didn't achieve that by having the intended effect.
The citizens would have had more chance with one gang of six than two gangs of three, because the murder rate is doubled by two gangs. The chance of gang-on-gang slayings helps the town, but is off-set by the fact that the watchman can't stop all the killings even if he always guesses right and by the reduced life-expectancy of the detective that comes with more murders.
And it makes spotting the criminals harder. The only information a citizen has is what he can deduce from other players' actions. At some point, the criminals have to act against what their interests would be if they were citizens. Having two gangs delays that point right to the end-game. While one gang is active, the thing that EVERYONE most wants to do is to identify and bump off a subset of the town's underworld.
A third reason is that although it's nice to see a Mafiosi get their comeuppance in the night, it doesn't tell us very much, and it is information that the citizens most need. If we'd ever managed to lynch a gangster, that would have told us a lot, because everyone has to vote (or abstain). Fewer gangsters means a reduced chance of nominating and lynching them.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
Would any of the following have helped the citizens compete against two gangs?
Two Detectives, who know each other.
Two Watchmen, who know each other.
A vigilante, who can kill at night but is on the citizens' side.
Two Neighbourhood Watch instead of four Masons.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
# 1654
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Posted
Being a vigilante would have been interesting.
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- insert randomly chosen, potentially Deep and Meaningful™ song lyrics here -
Posts: 9841 | From: further up the Hill | Registered: Nov 2001
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Rugmaker
Shipmate
# 10728
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Posted
Having just played as a bad guy, the factor which was of most nuisance to me was the masons. Towards the end of the game it definitely skewed the voting possibilities having two known innocents, one because she was a mason. The detective is really just taking a punt in the dark, and as soon as he or she makes any move to reveal their role they'll be killed by somebody, so they really can't help much. Similarly, the watchman is really just guessing, especially early on - has the watchman actually managed to save anybody in either game?
I think that having two gangs was fun, and I would have loved to see an end game with say two left from each gang plus two citizens! But I think that a game with just one gang is equally good, just different. I think that the change to the voting rules should help the citizens a good deal and restore a balance somewhat. I know that AR and I never felt we were in any way certain to win until we actually did - the game was a lot closer than it may have appeared, and the citizens were probably only a couple of votes here and there away from winning. They just had no way of knowing that at the time!
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Waiting to think of something witty to put here.
Posts: 1319 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2005
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
Personally I found the increased complexity of the balance of roles a bit overwhelming, but that's because I'm overwhelmed with things generally at the moment and only popping online here and there. That's probably why I didn't get quite as involved this time - I tended to switch off when the new roles emerged. As I said, the fault is with me though, not with the game as such (Thanks for running it, Teufelchenchen!) and I look forward to the next one.
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rugmaker:
The detective is really just taking a punt in the dark, and as soon as he or she makes any move to reveal their role they'll be killed by somebody, so they really can't help much.
It would be interesting, I think, explicitly to allow everyone to communicate privately. That way, the detective could pass information to any known masons, or to anyone the detective personally knows to be innocent, broadening the base of approval for the detective's discoveries.
quote:
Similarly, the watchman is really just guessing, especially early on - has the watchman actually managed to save anybody in either game?
There was no watchman in the first game. In the second game, the watchman did not save anyone. Of course, the watchman can help solve the problem of the detective's vulnerability - if the detective has said enough to give herself away, the watchman can protect her.
The vigilante's role description is this:
Vigilante: This role may kill at night, but does not have to. The vigilante is a member of the citizen faction, and wins when there are no members of other factions left.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Would any of the following have helped the citizens compete against two gangs?
What would neighbourhood watch do? I didn't notice them in the list of roles, and they don't appear to be mentioned in the Wiki article. Would they be the same as watchmen, or different?
I like the idea of the vigilante, and another watchman mightn't be a bad idea, but would another detective swing the balance too much in favour of the citizens? Both games were very close, after all. The mob only won game 1 on a final, suicidal change of mind, and mainly scraped game 2 thanks to a few early successes overnight.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Rugmaker
Shipmate
# 10728
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Posted
I fear that a vigilante may actually help the mafia. Either he/she kills people based on only partial evidence/gut feelings and probably takes out more citizens, or he/she waits for convincing evidence that someone is mafia in which case they would be lynched in any case.
I hadn't thought of the watchman protecting the detective. Of course, what to do if several people all claim to be the detective!?
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Waiting to think of something witty to put here.
Posts: 1319 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
What would neighbourhood watch do? I didn't notice them in the list of roles, and they don't appear to be mentioned in the Wiki article. Would they be the same as watchmen, or different?
I encountered Neighbourhood Watch in this Flash animation which gives an admirably complete list of roles. They're mentioned in my 'unused roles' post above, under 'cultists'.
Essentially, they are Masons who can recruit an extra member each night.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rugmaker:
I fear that a vigilante may actually help the mafia. Either he/she kills people based on only partial evidence/gut feelings and probably takes out more citizens, or he/she waits for convincing evidence that someone is mafia in which case they would be lynched in any case.
I'm not sure. Certainly, a really clueless vigilante would be no good at all, but there have been a few occasions when a citizen was obviously pretty sure (accurately) that another player was a mafioso. If they were a vigilante, there would be no need to a) draw attention to themselves by publicly accusing them, and b) convince a majority of players to agree. These conditions make it very difficult to lynch the mafia, because they can all confidently vote for another nominee, blurring the issue and requiring much more than 50% of the honest citizens to pick the mobster out of the 3 nominations.
If the vigilante was careful, he/she could really tip the balance in favour of the citizens.
[ETA: I like the idea of the neighbourhood watch, but it would be a huge advantage to the citizens, IMO]
[ 22. November 2006, 13:02: Message edited by: The Great Gumby ]
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
In the last instalment of my 'Moderator's Toolkit' posts, here are samples of the messages used to notify players of their roles:
Gangsters:
quote:
The Mafia roles have now been allotted. You are a Mafioso. You must keep this information secret. The other Mafiosi are Mario and Luigi. You have a night action which enables you to kill one other character. Between you, choose a Don to notify me of each night's target. Once I get a PM from your Don confirming the same target, I'll let your victim know that they've been done in. Your day options are the same as everyone else's: you may nominate who to lynch, and you may vote in lynch mobs. You win when the only people left are Mafiosi and the same number or fewer from the citizen faction.
Detective:
quote:
The Mafia roles have now been allotted. You are a Detective, a member of the citizen faction. You must keep this information secret. You have a night action which enables you to investigate one other character. Once I get a PM from you nominating your target, I'll let you know whether that person is a citizen or a mobster. Your day options are the same as everyone else's: you may nominate who to lynch, and you may vote in lynch mobs. You win if there are only members of the citizen faction left.
Watchman:
quote:
The Mafia roles have now been allotted. You are a Watchman, a member of the citizen faction. You must keep this information secret. You have a night action which enables you to guard one other character. Once I get a PM from you nominating your target, that person is protected from being killed that night. Your day options are the same as everyone else's: you may nominate who to lynch, and you may vote in lynch mobs. You win if there are only members of the citizen faction left.
Mason:
quote:
The Mafia roles have now been allotted. You are a Mason, a member of the citizen faction. You must keep this information secret. Your fellow Masons are Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. You are all at a lodge meeting on the first night, and can thus vouch for one another's innocence. You have no other night action. Your day options are the same as everyone else's: you may nominate who to lynch, and you may vote in lynch mobs. You win if there are only members of the citizen faction left.
Citizen:
quote:
The Mafia roles have now been allotted. You are a Citizen. You must keep this information secret. You have no night action. Your day options are the same as everyone else's: you may nominate who to lynch, and you may vote in lynch mobs. You win if there are only members of the citizen faction left.
There. Once any final questions and discussions have wrapped up, I'm happy for Papa Wet SmurfKipper to close the thread.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
I enjoyed the concept of two gangs, because as a citizen I knew they would rather kill each other than me - even if it wasn't actually safer with two murders each night, it felt safer. But how many gangs & murders the moderator allows is probably best dictated by the size of the group playing, surely?
It was interesting to hear Rugmaker & AR say they were not sure of winning up until the last. I had a hunch AR was 'ndrinu back when I posted that I saw her jaguar parked outside Ezio's Bar. But her character got so interesting I then didn't care if she was. I didn't cast the vote for lynching her when I could have, because I wanted her to keep posting. (Sorry, fellow citizens!)
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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basso
Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228
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Posted
Since nobody wants to ask, I'll just tell you that the intent of my death scene was that Ezio had been drowned in a butt of malmsey. It seemed appropriately Shakespearian for the intro we had. If I'd been lynched, one of the mob would have yelled "The first thing lets do is kill all the barmen!"
Again, great fun. I look forward to the next game of whatever...
b.
Posts: 4358 | From: Bay Area, Calif | Registered: Mar 2003
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by basso:
Since nobody wants to ask, I'll just tell you that the intent of my death scene was that Ezio had been drowned in a butt of malmsey. It seemed appropriately Shakespearian for the intro we had. If I'd been lynched, one of the mob would have yelled "The first thing lets do is kill all the barmen!"
I should have asked. A wonderful touch, basso.
Thanks once again to all the awesome roleplayers on this thread!
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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