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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: The Liturgy of the Liberal Catholic Church
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patriotic_mason
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# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
So no experimental liturgy, or liturgies for youth or children or whatever...
Its a shame if not because it seems LCC church has so much to offer
Those who experiment with liturgy do so because they have a different understanding of the purpose of the Liturgy.
The LCC liturgy is not done because it is a more traditional style. It is done because it accomplishes a very specific purpose, and to deviate might weaken that purpose.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
I believe that one would be hard pressed to say that the original LCC Rite is diametrically distinctive to the liturgy used today.
I do not believe I claimed there was a diametric opposition, but what I have said and continue to say is that there has been fluctuation in the influences expressed in 'The Liturgy'. There is no way that one cannot say that. For example, the edition published in the 1960's VERY gnostic, but the 1940's edition of 'The Liturgy' was very 'Western Catholic'.
Interestingly, successive editions from the 1919 edition of 'The Liturgy' have expanded and re-organised the Shorter Form of the Eucharist.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
if you translate into a moder form in translation then why not a modern form of English?
Hi Eddy,
Bishop Leadbeater was particularly fond of traditional english, believing it more eloquently expressed ideas and ideals. There is no "rule" preventing a modern language version of the LCC liturgy, its just that when they last came to review it all the decision was made not to alter this. It has been the choice of the Church not to change.
I believe that suitable language which conveys the intended ideals and concepts is used when translating into languages other than english.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Has LCC developed this tradition, or is it more strict in sticking to traditional liturgy in all its worship forms?
In the 1970's extensive work was done to see if the Eucharistic Rites of the Church could be re-orientated in the same way that Vatican II had altered the rites of the Roman Church. However, I believe it was decided that we could not adequately adapt the rites and a complete re-write was seen as out of the question.
There was also work done to create an LCC version of the 'Folk Mass' phenomena. But this too died a death.
Under Bishop Sten von Krusenstierna there was also much liturgical work done relating to the Holy lady Mary. Marian Benediction and Compline were developed, as well as other rites.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
somehow deficient in their lack of "user friendly" services.
Well....I hate to say this but to "outsiders" I think the Liturgy is verbose and this can be a barrier, as other churches have simplified the way they work. Although Leadbeater in 1924 did state that the rubrics were designed to try to help people to "follow what is taking place". I believe they do help, but it would not be possible to easily adapt the Eucharistic Rites any further than they have been without losing their distinct beauty and character.
We know that there are sacramental bodies, like the Episcopalians and Old Catholics who love to experiment with liturgies. They often do this with great success. Good for them.
The Liberal Catholic Church has, as I have stated before, taken time to do its own fair share of experimental work regarding Liturgy. In the past it has never shied away from trying something new, and to assert otherwise is a mistake.
One of the primary reasons that the LCC exists, and in fact, why so many other 'Catholic' churches exist, is because, while we have similar historical, theological and organizational structures, we all differ in our approaches to ecclesiology.
Well...I may be wrong but I was taught the Liberal Catholic Church primarily existed "forward the work of her Master, Christ". Or atleast thats what dear Bishop Wedgwood wrote in his preface to 'The Liturgy'. I think saying the church exists because it can provide a "different flavour of catholicism" isn't really very fair. It smacks very much of DIY Christianity, and this has never been what 'The Liberal Catholic Church' is about.
Interestingly, relating to the point of why the Church exists, I do recall reading something written by Bishop Pigott which I read some years ago, where he stated that the particular duty of the Liberal Catholic Church is to 'proclaim the new Gnosis' and to help humanity free itself from the tyranny of the 'God of Abraham'. It could have been his book 'The Parting of the Ways' the only official Theological volume produced by the Church.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
The Spanish version of the Liturgy uses a traditional form rather than a contemporary form.
Hey Mason,
Was this edition of 'The Liturgy' published by the "Old Synod" or whats known as the LCCI outside of America ?
[Code fix. Mamacita, Host]
[ 09. January 2010, 02:37: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Celestialstarfire: Hie thee to the UBB Practice Thread in the Styx and experiment with the quotes function. Just a suggestion.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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LibCath2000
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# 15363
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Posted
CSF,
Its late night over here, so I'll be brief...
You write, as if you speak for the entire Liberal Catholic movement.
And no, I'm not trying to be rude at all, I'm just frustrated that you seem to contest everything I say.
When I make mention of the liturgy used by the LCC, I am almost always referring to the CURRENT liturgy used by the LCC Worldwide. For me, that is what is most relevant to the discussion.
Moreover, I do not pretend to know the practices of any other group labeling itself Liberal Catholic.
As to the liturgy being "verbose", I do not find this to be true. But of course, that is matter of opinion.
Also, you have entirely misunderstood my statement about just ONE of the reasons why the LCC was formed.
Nowhere could anyone infer that I meant that THE primary reason for our existence was to serve a particular constituency. Of course, the core of our existence is the call to further the Kingdom of God. There is really little or no disagreement between you and I on this point.
Anyway, in closing, my direct contact with many of the priests and faithful in my Communion (including our Presiding Bishop) have confirmed to me, that my statements are not by any means, "off-the-mark," but are shared by a large percentage of our Church.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Has LCC developed this tradition, or is it more strict in sticking to traditional liturgy in all its worship forms?
In the 1970's extensive work was done to see if the Eucharistic Rites of the Church could be re-orientated in the same way that Vatican II had altered the rites of the Roman Church. However, I believe it was decided that we could not adequately adapt the rites and a complete re-write was seen as out of the question.
There was also work done to create an LCC version of the 'Folk Mass' phenomena. But this too died a death.
Under Bishop Sten von Krusenstierna there was also much liturgical work done relating to the Holy lady Mary. Marian Benediction and Compline were developed, as well as other rites.
Thanks for this. Most Catholic churches revise there liturgies as the years go by, and until the moon fails. So I see does LCC. It does seem to be necessary for the new generations if a church isnt to get too fossilised, and if it is to allow a space for new styles of worship - which may be done, rightly, along the old styles. Its the new and experimental that LCC church seems short of.
Marian Benediction sounds interesting. I know LCC church have a Marian service but I didnt realise it also had a special Mary Benediction. It would be great to see a video clip of that worship.
Have you read 'The Secret life of Bees?' The group there have special rites focussing on our lady - its fiction, but v interesting, you know.
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
You write, as if you speak for the entire Liberal Catholic movement.
Of course I don't write on behalf of the entire Liberal Catholic movement. I've just tried to reflect that not all share your perspective. At points what you have said has not strictly reflected the full state of affairs. As I said before, I have not sought deliberately to oppose you. I guess thats the big problem with allowing both clergy and congregation freedom of interpretation. It can make saying general statements difficult.
quote:
As to the liturgy being "verbose", I do not find this to be true. But of course, that is matter of opinion.
I do agree with you, I love the liturgy and always have done and feel now that I could never take part in another form of Worship. But I have tried to be a bit more open relating to how others may see 'The Liturgy' by saying that some who are used to less elaborate liturgies could find it so. I don't see any harm in that, it is truely beautiful but even Leadbeater admitted it still needed work (in science of the sacraments, and he was mainly talking about the music for it). It is also true that the Church has in the past experimented greatly with its Liturgy, which I think is a strength. Not being afraid of change, but not "throwing the baby out with the bath-water" either. I guess what I've tried to say by raising that is that the LCC has never been opposed to trying new things (evidence being its history, not my personal opionion or me trying to speak on behalf of a global movement).
I don't think we are disagreeing much about the Church etc. Can we move on a bit and back to the Liturgy?
Does anyone have practical experience of 'Our Lady's Rosary of the Seven Rays' and what do you think about it? I think its a particularly beautiful expression of the Rosary.....
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Its the new and experimental that LCC church seems short of.
Bishop Markus van Alphen was a priest in 'The Liberal Catholic Church', his father was the former Presiding Bishop of the Church. In his retirement Johannes van Alphen helped co-found a new Liturgical movement called 'The Young Rite' and they do a great deal of experimentation liturgically, whilst not claiming to be specifically 'Liberal Catholic'.Perhaps you might like to investigate their work? I believe that they use as their base 'The Liturgy' and many of the rubrics written by Bishop Irving Cooper in his book Ceremonies of the Liberal Rite.
I am not a subscriber to what they do, but Bishop Johannes van Alphen was known to be an exceptional liturgist. I've seen a video of him celebrating the 'Short Form' of the Eucharist, and it truely is a sight to see. Unfortunatley he passed into eternity about this time last year. I only mention them to you Eddy because of who Bishop Johannes was and its sort of relevant to the point above. I believe that they have adopted the practice of "abolishing the sanctuary" in that there's no division between celebrant and congregation, and everyone sits around the Altar. Something I gather at one point many moons ago the LCC did experiement with "masses in the round" and "splitting the mensa" but these practices were abandoned.
quote:
Marian Benediction sounds interesting. I know LCC church have a Marian service but I didnt realise it also had a special Mary Benediction. It would be great to see a video clip of that worship.
I don't know if such a clip of the Marian Benediction Service exists. Perhaps LC2K can help here?? Or Mason? I know that the book 'Services of Our Lady' in the edition I own (a first print) has something to the effect that it was only to be used where authorised as it was (at that time regarded as being) experiemental. Now I don't know if thats changed or not, but it still has some rather lovely services in it.
quote:
Have you read 'The Secret life of Bees?' The group there have special rites focussing on our lady - its fiction, but v interesting, you know.
No but I've seen the movie. It was good, I liked Queen Latifah, she always plays a good part in my opinion.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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LibCath2000
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# 15363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
Can we move on a bit and back to the Liturgy?
Absolutely...
As to the Ray Rosary, it is well known in Roman Catholic circles, where it is known as the Franciscan Crown.
Of course, in the LCC, there is a more mystical approach to this particular devotion.
Also, I could not find any video of a Marian service in the LCC (and in fact there are few videos online about Liberal Catholicism), but I did find this.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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patriotic_mason
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# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
The Spanish version of the Liturgy uses a traditional form rather than a contemporary form.
Hey Mason,
Was this edition of 'The Liturgy' published by the "Old Synod" or whats known as the LCCI outside of America ?
[Code fix. Mamacita, Host]
La Liturgia was published in Bogota, Columbia in 1961 and was based on the 3rd edition of The Liturgy.
It was done under the authority of the original Liberal Catholic Church under +Vreede.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
Also, I could not find any video of a Marian service in the LCC (and in fact there are few videos online about Liberal Catholicism), but I did find this.
LC2K
My Facebook friend, Rabecca Collin, is in that video! Pretty cool!
As for videos: The Young Rite, while not strictly or solely a Liberal Rite church, offers numerous videos on it's website including the traditional mass: http://www.lcc.cc/yr/
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Many churches have come up in recent years with services to help people get into worship - like mission services, or seekers' services. These aren't main liturgies like Mass but steps to getting there.
With a name like 'Liberal catholic' I am surprised that the LCC church haven't had a go at this. The C of E has traditional liturgy as well as not so traditional and it seems to work well together.
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LibCath2000
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# 15363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
With a name like 'Liberal catholic' I am surprised that the LCC church haven't had a go at this. The C of E has traditional liturgy as well as not so traditional and it seems to work well together.
When I first learned about Catholic Churches outside of communion with Rome, I thought that the Liberal Catholic's would be the most 'liberal' in terms of liturgical innovation.
Of course, the opposite was true.
Now...
I stand by what I said here to you, and others before...
What works in one Church, will not necessarily work in another, and in fact, may not even be desired.
You're C of E, from what I understand... so for me, any liturgical activities you do in your church are no concern of mine. Those decisions would be entirely up to your own clergy and adherents.
I know someone else will most likely take issue with this, however, please understand, I belong to the LCC worldwide. Any other church calling itself Liberal Catholic is entitled to do whatever it wants in terms of liturgics.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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LibCath2000
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# 15363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
My goodness, scariest concelebration ever!
Different to be sure, but it's pretty awesome to me!
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Concelebration? I don't think the LCC church will do that, its a modern invention!
I'm puzzled a little by the LCC church insistence on traditional rites only. Does this mean their are no children's liturgies or acomodation for children ever?
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LibCath2000
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# 15363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
My goodness, scariest concelebration ever!
That was a page completely black? Does that mean something?
Yeah... means you should update your computer.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
I tried too and got a black screen. Then it said I should install Apple Quicktime, when I tried it said not available!
Maybe LCC church concelbration is to be a black mystery of mysteries now, lol.
[ 11. January 2010, 18:28: Message edited by: Eddy ]
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
My goodness, scariest concelebration ever!
That was a page completely black? Does that mean something?
As Eddy noted, it is a QuickTime file. It's a very short clip showing at least nine priests (maybe more in the back, I couldn't quite make them out) in more-or-less matching chasubles, facing the congo and beginning what I think was a Eucharistic Prayer (couldn't quite make it out). The title of the page was "Retreat 2002," so I assume it was a special event with several clergy gathered. Nonetheless... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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patriotic_mason
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# 15246
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Posted
Hasn't this thread run it's course yet?
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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LibCath2000
Shipmate
# 15363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
Hasn't this thread run it's course yet?
I think so...
The only question(s) still being presented, have been asked and answered already, several times.
LC2K
[PS: There is an undergoing effort to create an independent, Liberal Catholic Forum-I will keep any interested parties updated]
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
In the LCC Church liturgy in English why are words
Ite Missa est
Deo gratias
used
- Before the blessing - thats a bit odd isnt it.
and why in Latin when everything else is in English.
It seems strange to me.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
In the LCC Church liturgy in English why are words
Ite Missa est
Deo gratias
used
- Before the blessing - thats a bit odd isnt it.
Well, I agree that it's odd, but it seems hardly fair to fault the Liberal Rite given that it was the same in the Roman Rite on which it was based.
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Really LQ I didnt know that. The dismissal came before the blessing in the old Latin Rite, did it.
Still not sure why though the LCC church should revert mto latin at that point. maybe the translators forgot that bit!
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Really LQ I didnt know that. The dismissal came before the blessing in the old Latin Rite, did it.
Still not sure why though the LCC church should revert mto latin at that point. maybe the translators forgot that bit!
Leadbeater held that the Priest was dismissing the Angel called at the start of the mass, and others summoned through the course of the rite. It was not "aimed at the congregation" so to speak.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
How is the angel called at the beginning of the Mass - is there a formula provided for that?
It also suggests Angels speak latin but not English...
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
How is the angel called at the beginning of the Mass - is there a formula provided for that?
It also suggests Angels speak latin but not English...
Yes....in the Tridentine Rite it is at the beginning, during the asperges:
"Let us pray.--Hear us, O holy Lord, almighty Father, everlasting God, and vouchsafe to send Thy holy Angel from heaven, to guard, cherish, protect, visit and defend all that are assembled in this place: through Christ our Lord. Amen."
The Liberal Rite in the Shorter Form says "And I pray our heavenly Father, that he will send his Holy Angel"
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
It also suggests Angels speak latin but not English...
Again I think Latin usage might be because it was the way the Tridentine Mass ended. Also it was probably because it can be sung very beautifully.
Leadbeater held that ultimately all human language was insufficient, and that despite that God still responds to us whatver language we use.
The Science of The Sacraments will give you more specific details if you get the chance to check it out.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I sense a certain level of enquiry fatigue setting in. We'll leave this thread open for a day or so longer for any further contributions, and then send it to its well deserved rest.
(We'll save all the detailed information so kindly provided by our LC shipmates, by moving this thread to Limbo when we do the next board clear up.)
T²
Eccles Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
The angel and the liturgy is a very interesting point I think, and does come in other liturgy as well doesnt it.
When we call the angel is that a specific angel - as gabriel to our Lady, or any angel?
I know in the Missal there is somewhere a passage about the angel taking the worship up into heaven - maybe not quite that - and someone kind soul can correct me on it, I hope. Thats the idea though.
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
When we call the angel is that a specific angel - as gabriel to our Lady, or any angel?
Leadbeater held that it was 'The Angel of the Eucharist' or a 'directing angel' of sorts. Really rather interesting.
Oh and for those interestested I gather the St Alban Press in California are due to be re-releasing some of the harder to find older theological texts written about Liberal Catholicism.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I know in the Missal there is somewhere a passage about the angel taking the worship up into heaven - maybe not quite that - and someone kind soul can correct me on it, I hope. Thats the idea though.
It's in the tridentine Canon: Súpplices te rogámus, omnípotens Deus: jube hæc perférri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublíme altáre tuum, in conspéctu divínæ majestátis tuæ: ut quotquot ex hac altáris participatióne sacrosánctum Fíii tui, Cor+pus, et Sán+guinem sumpsérimus, omni benedictióne cælésti et grátia repleámur. Per eúndem Christum Dóminum nostrum. Amen.
or
Humbly we beseech Thee, almighty God, to command that these our offerings be carried by the hands of Thy holy Angel to Thine Altar on high, in the sight of Thy divine Majesty, so that those of us who shall receive the most sacred Body + and Blood + of Thy Son by partaking thereof from this Altar may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing: Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
"P. Wherefore, O Lord and heavenly Father, we thy humble servants do offer unto thee this, the most precious gift which thou hast bestowed upon us, in token of our + love and of the perfect + devotion and + sacrifice of our + minds and + hearts to thee; and we pray that thou wouldst command thy holy angel to bear our oblation to thine alter on high, there to be offered by him who, as the eternal high priest, for ever offers himself as the eternal sacrifice."
That is a quote from the Shorter Form of the Eucharist (LCC).
And unusually the next paragraph which on the surface seems to be a prayer about the Priest, Leadbeater said was actually a prayer about the Angel.
"And we do pray thee for thy servant who ministers at this altar, that meetly celebrating the mysteries of the most holy + Body and + Blood of thy Son, he may be + filled with thy mighty power and thy blessing.
The Priest makes the last cross upon himself."
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I know in the Missal there is somewhere a passage about the angel taking the worship up into heaven - maybe not quite that - and someone kind soul can correct me on it, I hope. Thats the idea though.
It's in the tridentine Canon: Súpplices te rogámus, omnípotens Deus: jube hæc perférri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublíme altáre tuum, in conspéctu divínæ majestátis tuæ: ut quotquot ex hac altáris participatióne sacrosánctum Fíii tui, Cor+pus, et Sán+guinem sumpsérimus, omni benedictióne cælésti et grátia repleámur. Per eúndem Christum Dóminum nostrum. Amen.
or
Humbly we beseech Thee, almighty God, to command that these our offerings be carried by the hands of Thy holy Angel to Thine Altar on high, in the sight of Thy divine Majesty, so that those of us who shall receive the most sacred Body + and Blood + of Thy Son by partaking thereof from this Altar may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing: Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
That's always struck me as a very lovely passage although I'm never sure quite where it derives from - is their a Scriptural passage about prayers and Temple offerings being brought before the Throne of Grace?
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's in the tridentine Canon
And IIRC the Church of England retained it until the 1552 prayer book.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's in the tridentine Canon
And IIRC the Church of England retained it until the 1552 prayer book.
In some form, although moving after the consecration and substituting "prayers and supplications" for "offerings", "tabernacle" for "altar" and omitting all after "divine majesty", in place of which there is "not waiyng our merites, but pardonyng our offences, through Christe our Lorde, by whome, and with whome, in the unitie of the holy Ghost: all honour and glory, be unto thee, O father almightie, world without ende. Amen."
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
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Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
The angel in the liturgy is very nice, I think - I mean how djo talks about it. I like the 'with angels and archangels' bit in the Mass as well.
The LCC church seems to be getting some comment in Hell too.
From what has been said here the church doesn't seem to mix much with others and has a pretty static liturgy. When lots of churches have been developing there liturgies in recent years the LCC church don't seem to have done so.
I can understand that - I know some people like the old ways and don't want change. Like the Prayer Book Society in the Church of England.
What I sense though is that behind the LCC church worship although its said anyone can believe anything there are in fact some mystical or esoteric thinkings - like how the church should be laid out for maximum energy.
It makes me wonder if like Freemasons there is a higher order of church that members can move into. I mean as the Freemasons have special lodges you can move on to - I think I am right here, so I just wonder if the LCC church has secret ceremonies or rites for certian deeply committed members.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's in the tridentine Canon
And IIRC the Church of England retained it until the 1552 prayer book.
In full: Yet we beseche thee to accepte thys our bounden duetie and service, and commaunde these our prayers and supplicacions, by the Ministery of thy holy Angels, to be brought up into thy holy Tabernacle before the syght of thy dyvine majestie; not waiyng our merites, but pardonyng our offences,
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
It makes me wonder if like Freemasons there is a higher order of church that members can move into. I mean as the Freemasons have special lodges you can move on to - I think I am right here, so I just wonder if the LCC church has secret ceremonies or rites for certian deeply committed members.
Although I know the LCC are sometimes liked with the Freemasons, I hardly think that that's a fair thing to accuse them of - I imagine that the rites that are publically available are what they use and have never heard rumours of any 'secret' extra ones.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
It makes me wonder if like Freemasons there is a higher order of church that members can move into. I mean as the Freemasons have special lodges you can move on to - I think I am right here, so I just wonder if the LCC church has secret ceremonies or rites for certian deeply committed members.
If I might kill this conspiracy theory before it has a chance to grow.....
I am a Master Mason (AF&AM), a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason, and a Knight Templar in the York Rite here in the USA. There are no "secret" lodges in any part of the Masonic family. There are certain groups which have very exclusive membership and one must be a Mason to belong to those groups (MSRICF is a Masonic Rosicrucianism whose membership is "invitation only") but how secret is an organization that has a webpage?
The LCC has never been involved with Freemasonry directly. Some of the founding Bishops were Co-Masons (a group which admits men and women) but that does not imply any formal connection.
As to a secret rite in the LCC, such a thing does not exist. I realize that many will classify the LCC as a neo-gnostic church, yet where the original gnostics occasionally engaged in secret rites, the LCC does not. All our rites and sacraments are open to the public. There are no secret rites reserved for the "elite".
Such a notion is contrary to everything the Liberal Catholic Church stands for.
Pax et Lux!
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
Hmm, I flirted with Liberal Catholicism in my teen years, but I must say I didn't know that members could be Freemasons. It rather undermines the "Catholic" bit. (Of course, we've the same problem in Anglicanism).
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Thanks for that patriotic_mason. We've heard that the LCC church has different branches etc. is what you say holding for all those branches.
Given the friendly relations between LCC church and Freemasons - through shared members, makes me wonder if the LCC church ritual has been influenced by masonic symbolism or rites. I say this because it seems that the LCC church is younger than Freemasonary.
Please note I'm not criticising the connection, or indeed extra secret rites. Lots of groups have inner circles, you know, and I know some Episcopal bishops or priests are freemasons as well.
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Hmm, I flirted with Liberal Catholicism in my teen years, but I must say I didn't know that members could be Freemasons. It rather undermines the "Catholic" bit. (Of course, we've the same problem in Anglicanism).
There are numerous Roman Catholics in Freemasonry as well who do not regard Papal Bull's as anything but Papal opinion.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Thanks for that patriotic_mason. We've heard that the LCC church has different branches etc. is what you say holding for all those branches.
To my knowledge, yes. That is not to say that there isn't some left-field Bishop somewhere who uses our rite and holds Apostolic Succession via the Liberal Catholics who isn't doing some secret gnostic-like thing. I really don't know. But among those who genuinely consider themselves within the Liberal Catholic tradition, secret rites do not exist.
quote:
Given the friendly relations between LCC church and Freemasons - through shared members, makes me wonder if the LCC church ritual has been influenced by masonic symbolism or rites. I say this because it seems that the LCC church is younger than Freemasonary.
Owing to the fact that +Leadbeater was a prominent Co-Mason in Australia, and that it was after his Masonic influences he became a Bishop in what was to become the LCC, and that he co-authored our Liturgy, then I would presume you are correct on all counts. For that matter I might even argue that Freemasonry had a larger influence on our rite and theological inclinings than the much lauded Theosophical Society!
That bit aside, you might also recall that Freemasonry borrowed much of it's rite from catholic liturgy, so you might say that what goes around comes around.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
OK, this is turning very purgatorial.
It has been an interesting thread, and we will preserve it for posterity - please feel free to craft a purgatory OP to take forward some of these theological/metaphysical issues. I would like to thank our Liberal Catholic shipmates for being so generous in answering many, many questions about their tradition.
T²
Eccles Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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