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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: The Liturgy of the Liberal Catholic Church
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Eddy
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Posted
It is interesting that traditional language is the most used, and from this interesting photo it would seem that the vestments of the priests is traditional as well.
Yet the theology and outlook is very liberal. What a interesting combination!
Mind you I think some Anglo Catholic churches are traditional in liturgy but very liberal in teaching / theology - is that what others have found, or have I not got that quite right?
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
It is interesting that traditional language is the most used......the vestments of the priests is traditional as well.
Yet the theology and outlook is very liberal. What a interesting combination!
Well this is in part due to the work of C.W. Leadbeater. He was a highly influential Bishop of the Church who was also naturally clairvoyant. He claimed to be able to see a distinct advantage to the "flow" of the mass to wear the gothic vestments. He was particularly keen that everything look and be as beautiful as possible, ritual and ceremonial accuracy were also highly emphasised. He also claimed to see Angels during church services and the "change" take place at the consecration of the elements during the eucharist. Leadbeater wrote a book comparing the Tridentine Liturgy and the LCC Liturgy called "The Science of The Sacraments". I'd thoroughly recommend it as he also explains some of the ideas behind the Liturgy.
Also.....earlier in this discussion of the LCC liturgy mention of the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom came up. I have researched and found that Bishop Wedgwood actually composed a Liberal Catholic version of this Liturgy. Also atleast one Bishop whos consecration which Wedgwood had a "hand in" was accepted fully into the Russian Orthodox Church.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
Leadbeater's Science of the Sacraments is online.
http://users.rcn.com/donlav/cath-mass/index.htm
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
Leadbeater's Science of the Sacraments is online.
http://users.rcn.com/donlav/cath-mass/index.htm
Bishop Wedgwood's work has been collated in "The Collected Works of James I. Wedgwood" issued by the St. Alban Press and is also very good to read!
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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PaulTH*
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# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Mind you I think some Anglo Catholic churches are traditional in liturgy but very liberal in teaching / theology - is that what others have found, or have I not got that quite right?
This has certainly been my experience, which is why I am comfortable in such a setting despite being somewhat of a heretic. But I think there's a place for the Liberal Catholic tradition. Its minimalist creeds and its freedom of thought, combined with fine Catholic liturgy and ritual would make it ideal for someone like myself. Still I doubt if I could take on board Madame Blavatsky or Annie Besant if that's a requirement.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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I've particularly noticed it in London. But is it particularly peculiar to London, or in other places as well? I don't find it so common in rural areas.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Mind you I think some Anglo Catholic churches are traditional in liturgy but very liberal in teaching / theology - is that what others have found, or have I not got that quite right?
I think that's par for the course really. There are plenty of such CofE parishes. At least three within half an hour's walk of where I live. Probably more. In fact I'd say the majority of parishes in our diocese fitted that description.
When I were a teenage Evangelical we used to assume that what we called "high church" churches were all theologically liberal.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
.....Still I doubt if I could take on board Madame Blavatsky or Annie Besant if that's a requirement.
Nope they're not ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Bishop Wedgwood spelt out that everyone in the Liberal Catholic Church has the right of freedom of belief and interpretation.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Eddy
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So does these mean membership is attending the liturgy but believeing whatever you like without any boundaries at all?
Thats quite an unusual position, isn't it. Maybe a bit like the Quakers + traditional liturgy!
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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One way to under stand the UK Quaker tradition is that the focus it is not what you believe, it is how you arrive at the belief. (In theory being inspired by the divine.) I suppose that a liturgical church might think that if you repeat the liturgy enough, and it is well written, eventually you will believe what it teaches.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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rudolf
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# 2995
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Posted
quote:
Still I doubt if I could take on board Madame Blavatsky or Annie Besant if that's a requirement.
I find it hard to conceive of where you are coming from with this .... There is not even a requirement in the Theosophical Society to "take on board Madame Blavatsky or Annie Besant" - you are asked to keep an open mind towards their teachings and writings, but THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT OF ANY SORT ANYWHERE IN THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY. Requirement is an alien term, with this possible exception, that to actually join the Society, you have to sign your agreement to this, the first object of the Society:
quote:
To form a nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of Humanity without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or colour.
Since there is virtually no connection between the LCC and the TS, and almost no overlap of membership, then I certainly cannot imagine any requirement at the LCC end either.
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How silently, how silently,
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
As an aside to the discussion above, often people try to "bash" the LCC because many of its members in the past have also been members of the TS. Interestingly they don't bash other churches for having members who are also members of organisations or clubs which aren't apart of the church.
If membership of "non-christian organisations" is somehow evidence of the "invalidity" of the LCC then I'm sure using that logic it would be easy to throw the same labels of being "un-christian" or "invalid" against other Churches.
For example many Anglicans have membership of the local Library Serivce or fraternal organisations like Freemasonry (both organisations are obviously not exclusively filled with Anglicans). Using the same logic as above it could be said that because members of the congregation also possess membership of the Library Service or Freemasonry (both non-christian organisations / centres of learning) the Anglican Church is "un-christian" or "invalid".
Obviously this is rediculous.
Personally I think such attacks are just a very weak attempts to discredit the LCC as we can see above, he logic of the arguement doesn't make any sense. It seems that those would would attack the LCC on these grounds do so out of what I could only suggest would be jelousy or insecurity.
Often what seems to truely bug people is that the LCC has valid Orders, it is independent and has a different view of spirituality and attitude towards personal freedom to many of the larger churches. Often people can find "different" threatening, I think that the church's "otherness" is the real "thorn in their side". Not what non-ecclesiastical organisations its memebers may belong to.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
quote:
Often what seems to truely bug people is that the LCC has valid Orders, it is independent and has a different view of spirituality and attitude towards personal freedom to many of the larger churches. Often people can find "different" threatening, I think that the church's "otherness" is the real "thorn in their side". Not what non-ecclesiastical organisations its memebers may belong to.
I think that is a great point to make and well worth thinking about.
I know some people here rubbish smaller churches. I've been criticised for taking an interest in them. But the small group can change the world as our Gosp[el tells us!
What interests me with LCC in particular is the liturgical conformity but doctrinal freedom. I think this can be threatening to some guys.
An interesting question would be is it possible to receive communion / fully participate in LCC liturgy and not be a believer, or be a member of another faith?
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
From what has already been said on this thread, the answer to that would appear to be Yes.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
An interesting question would be is it possible to receive communion / fully participate in LCC liturgy and not be a believer, or be a member of another faith?
Well....I have been at LCC Eucharists where Moslems were present, and were so moved by the Liturgy and Sermon and felt that they desired "to partake of the" consecrated Host and Wine. I think that theologians like E.B.Stuart (also a Liberal Catholic Bishop) would argue that as Christ came for everyone and so would not deny himself to anyone. After all many whom he preached to were not "christians", so what better way to help them on their journey of faith than not denying them the Sacraments but rather allowing them access to them?
Unlike the Roman and Anglican Churches, the LCC only requires a desire to take part in the eucharist as a prerequisite for taking part. The Liturgy shows this in that it states "Ye that desire to partake in the body of the Lord, draw nigh and recieve this most holy Sacrament". Which I think is a rather profound understanding, as it affirms the real presence (not requiring faith to enable communion) and shows that despite our flaws we can take part in what I would call the greatest "christian mystery", the eucharist.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
This is fascinating, and thanks so much for sharing it with us.
I wonder if in fact the stance many Anglicans actually take in the Holy Communion partaking even if their church doesnt officially allow it. I think many priests will give the Blessed Scarament to anyone of any faith who comes forward. Actually I've not heard of people coming forward in the C of E and being refused - that just happened in the film 'Priest'!
It seems the LCC position has something to show to the RC and Anglican churches.
It suggests a more open attitude to liturgy which is less about rules of believing and testing peoples beliefs.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
That may well be, but I've yet to see any C of E priest interrogate anyone as to their faith or lack of it before administering the Sacrament.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
That is actually the point I'm trying to make. What I mean is the C of E do that as well as the LCC, on the local administering the Sacrament, but the LCC Church say thats there teaching and way the C of E doesn't.
In that sense the C of E position lacks some integrity. i reckon.
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patriotic_mason
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# 15246
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Posted
Eddy,
Better to do than to say and do not.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
That is actually the point I'm trying to make. What I mean is the C of E do that as well as the LCC, on the local administering the Sacrament, but the LCC Church say thats there teaching and way the C of E doesn't.
In that sense the C of E position lacks some integrity. i reckon.
Historically the LCC has always been very forward thinking, progressive and willing to try new things. I just think its a shame that people have got involved who have had strong opinions resulting in schism. But even in its "separatness" its united through its liturgy and many of its opinions. What I mean to say is that there's far more that the various synods have in common than which separates them.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
Have any of you come across devotions particular to 'The Liberal Catholic Church' before?
Such as the Rosary of 'Our Lady of the Seven Rays' and the LCC versions of the Offices etc.?
There are some interesting rites particular to the LCC, there's a rather nice "Hommage to Our Lady" and a rite for lighting and extinguishing of candles which utilises imagery found in Revelation.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
I've not come across those interesting devotions before. It would be super to see them.
Any chance of posting a link to them?
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Once again, Google is our friend, and is very easy to use:
http://liberalcatholic.tripod.com/RayRose.htm
(Though it might not be quite what you think.....)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
"There are some interesting rites particular to the LCC, there's a rather nice "Hommage to Our Lady" and a rite for lighting and extinguishing of candles which utilises imagery found in Revelation."
I cant find those through Google, any help?
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
And here's an interesting essay which does mention candles:
http://www.lcc.cc/ecem/eveleinf/chakras.htm
Though I have to admit it's all a bit above my head!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
http://www.lcc.cc/ecem/eveleinf/chakras.htm
That looks quite interesting, but there is a particular rite that I might be able to obtain from somewhere online. It might not be possible because of copyright though.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Well, that was the best I could do - the essay does seem to refer to a particular rite but without being specific as to what is actually done. Any further information would be interesting, and I'm sure Eddy appreciates the efforts being made on his behalf!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Thank you for all your research, BF.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
I do appreciate all that effort BF, thanks. It makes these kind of discussions interesting to have some 'meat' in them as well, noit just off the top of the head throw away comments that some guys give.
And - before anyone says it - yesa I can be guilty of that as well!
A question for our L:CC friends or those who know about there interesting ways.
Is it possible to tell a LCC church from its appearance? Does it have anything special about it - a prominent symbol or soemthing?
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patriotic_mason
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# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
A question for our LCC friends or those who know about there interesting ways.
Is it possible to tell a LCC church from its appearance? Does it have anything special about it - a prominent symbol or something?
From the outside, most Liberal Catholic churches look like any other Church (or as the case may be, plain building/business/remodeled house).
On the inside is where you will notice something unique. It is normal for all Liberal Catholic churches to have suspended "ray crosses" with consecrated jewels inside them.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
quote:
It is normal for all Liberal Catholic churches to have suspended "ray crosses" with consecrated jewels inside them.
Thats very interesting, and it would be lovely to know more about this special symbolism. Do these rasy crosses deliver spiritual energy, for example.
Can you point to a photo of one please, anyone. I'd like to see a photo of what one looks like.
The consecrated jewel aspect is interesting as well. I know some people like crystals and use them in prayer or healing.
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patriotic_mason
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# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
[QB] Thats very interesting, and it would be lovely to know more about this special symbolism. Do these rasy crosses deliver spiritual energy, for example.
Bp. Cooper's "Ceremonies" book is online, and the text that discusses the Ray Crosses is here: http://www.global.org/Pub/Cooper_Ceremonies_1.asp
About half way down this page: http://www.anandgholap.net/Science_Of_Sacraments-CWL.htm
You can find a nice diagram about how the crosses are meant to interact with the Altar.
I don't have a pic of one, but they aren't generally obvious to the casual observer. You have to look for them to notice they are there.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
I tried Flickr but couldnt find a photo of a Lib Cath church interior with these symbols. Help anyone please?
Those articles pointed too are really quite complicated, and seem to put a lot on position and place and directing energy in liturgy. It shows how posture and position can have extra importance to some Christians.
This LCC church seems fascinating in some ways, precise traditional liturgy, but believe anything, but also you can believe a lot more than trad Christians do.
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
[QUOTE]
Do these ray crosses deliver spiritual energy, for example.
The consecrated jewel aspect is interesting as well. I know some people like crystals and use them in prayer or healing.
The relate to the seven spirits that stand before the throne of God (relating to the book of revealation). They are usually also inscribed with symbols which depict the "properties" of the rays and the way in which the Spirits work.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
In addition to the ray crosses and the consecrated jewels which they contain, the altarstone has all seven jewels in it and traditionally a Liberal Catholic Priest or Bishop would also wear a cross with the jewels in.
The use of jewels or gemstones in worship is not "unknown", the breastplate of the High Priest being cited as one example. In addition Bishops also wear their Amethyst rings.
Bishop Leadbeater placed importance on the arrangement of the ray crosses because of his clairvoyant investigation. He believed in the necessity of ensuring that all the "forces" released during the course of the Eucharist should be efficiently "channeled". This was held by Leadbeater as being important as it makes the work more effective, whilst they are totally un-necessary they are seen as desirable. That is to say that of course the great miracle of transubstantiation occurs without the presence of the jewels. It is just that the jewels help prepare the space. A friend of mine whos into crystal healing etc. calls this process "gridding".
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Does it have anything special about it - a prominent symbol or soemthing?
One thing that has just come to mind, is that in addition to the Altar Cross usually there is a picture behind the Altar of the Maitreya or Christ.
Both the picture and atleast one ray cross can be seen at this website:
http://stfrancislcc.bravehost.com/StFrancis8.html there are also some rather interesting pictures of LCC clergy and Bishops.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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LibCath2000
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# 15363
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Posted
Hello Forum
I'm a 20-something year old member of the Liberal Catholic Church, Province of the USA, which is the successor to the original Liberal Catholic movement.
I wanted to add, that in our churches you will find altar crosses and not altar crucifixes. A subtle difference, to be sure.
The ray crosses, as already noted, are not prominent and one would need to carefully look around to find them.
Also noted, the image of Christ (Maitreya) in our churches is unique to our tradition within Christianity.
Everything else, is pretty traditional looking by Catholic standards.
Hope this helps.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
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Posted
Welcome, LibCath2000 and thanks for your post. If you feel so inclined, there's a New Members thread on the All Saints board where you can officially introduce yourself.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Eddy
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Posted
Well hi there, Libcath2000 and its just great to have you here. It helps us understand a very interesting branch of Christianity to have some of its adherents contribute.
Now you say:
quote:
the image of Christ (Maitreya) in our churches is unique to our tradition within Christianity.
Any chance of some kind person showing a pic of that image. We do seem to be a bit short of pics of the interiors of Lib cath churches, which is a great shame I reckon.
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LibCath2000
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# 15363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Welcome, LibCath2000 and thanks for your post. If you feel so inclined, there's a New Members thread on the All Saints board where you can officially introduce yourself.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
Thanks for the welcome! I look forward to my time spent here on the Forum, I'm sure it will be both fun and edifying.
LC2K
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LibCath2000
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# 15363
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Posted
Eddy,
Thanks for the welcome...
As far as a church interior, which you can see the Maitreya Christ, you can see it at this link below
St. Francis Liberal Catholic Church, Vila Park, IL, USA
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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patriotic_mason
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# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Any chance of some kind person showing a pic of that image. We do seem to be a bit short of pics of the interiors of Lib cath churches, which is a great shame I reckon.
The LCC-Theosophia Synod in Orlando has a picture of Christ on their main-page.
http://www.lcc-orlando.org/
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
Hey....earlier in this thread I mentioned the Seven Rays and the Ray Crosses. I came across today a publication by the late Johannes Van Alphen (Catechism 99), which I believe was issued back when he was Presiding Bishop of the Church.
He wrote a very interesting paragraph on the nature of the seven rays and their role with the jewels in the Liturgy. If anyone's interested message me an I'll see if I can send you the paragraph.
There's also a really good explaination in the book 'The Sacraments' an abridged version of 'The Science of The Sacraments' published by the St Alban Press in 1993, edited by the late Sten von Krusenstierna (also another former Presiding Bishop). Its not a volume that I've not seen much comment on, but having recently got a copy I can see how significantly more useful it is than previous editions, or atleast for me as a priest it is.
It has a much better lay out, and sub-deadings, a better introduction etc. and its been edited to make it easier for "non-mystical" Liberal Catholics to understand the more esoteric aspects of the tradition.
Its just a shame that F.W. Pigott's work 'The Parting of The Ways' has not been republished. It could do with a slight edit (some items are obsolete as they are purely of historical interest) and then I am sure it would be of great interest to aspiring Liberal Catholics.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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LibCath2000
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# 15363
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Posted
Just curious...
Is anyone on this thread still a member of the Liberal Catholic movement?
Or am I the only one? ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
LC2K
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
Just curious...
Is anyone on this thread still a member of the Liberal Catholic movement?
Or am I the only one?
LC2K
Hey LC2K,
There are are couple on here...like Patriotic Mason and others
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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patriotic_mason
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# 15246
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Posted
Yep, I'm a Subdeacon in the LibCath movement.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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LibCath2000
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# 15363
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Posted
Patriotic_Mason,
Are you part of the original LCC or the LCCI?
LC2K
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
I think one of the biggest problems the LCC has faced has been that in the past few years it has "gone pop" so to speak. I thas split into several Synods because the Bishpps have strongly disagreed.
Now whilst I can see that this might be a fulfilment of the prophesy of Krishnamurti*, I think it has not been helpful for the Chuch and that the current move towards re-uniting the church might be woth investigating.
*(In 1929 Krishnamurti predicted the demise of all major "monolithic" bodies and a return to smaller groups functioning on a more local level.)
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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