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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: The Liturgy of the Liberal Catholic Church
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Quite so. The LCC, however marginally interesting their liturgy might be, is of little or no consequence in the UK church scene (which is in a dire enough state anyway, without having to worry about trying to learn how to do it better by looking at a tiny and eccentric sect).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Quite so. The LCC, however marginally interesting their liturgy might be, is of little or no consequence in the UK church scene (which is in a dire enough state anyway, without having to worry about trying to learn how to do it better by looking at a tiny and eccentric sect).
Ian J.
The major issue with the LCC is the confusion they bring over what authentic Christianity is really about. If the focus on is ritual and new age ideals of one god at the heart of all religions (which is what they do believe - see the website, search Grail Community Bideford) then you'll see just how confused the picture can get.
Like most schismatics they seem to have sprung up because what they want is not being catered for, rather than as a result of a new move or revelation of God. The fact that they are not recognised by Churches or Christians Together at the UK national level illustrates the marginal (sub Christian?) nature of their beliefs.
Some of us would take exception to their position on the eucharist and to homosexuality (no bar to priests or bishops being actively "gay" - rumour has it that some are). Surprise that the Bideford church community seem to accept them as a valid group hmmmmmmm
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
Hi,
I'm new to this but I saw there were questions about the LCC having a website, it does exist. I found it earlier:
http://stfrancislcc.bravehost.com/StFrancis11.html
If you go there you can see inside the Church at Tekels Park and also some pictures from some of the services.
Also.....people on here have been saying about how "theosophical" the LCC Liturgy is.....but no one has picked up on how scriptural it is too! "Christ is our foundation and our cheif cornerstone" that clearly links in with Corinthians....also there's influence from the saints like St Augustine "our hearts are ever restless til they find their rest in thee".
I think one has to bear in mind that when this Liturgy was composed, it was a genuine attempt to create an uplifiting liturgy that was truely catholic (universal). Thats why it drew from Roman, Orthodox and Anglican Liturgies. Bishop Wedgwood in writing about the Liturgy, correctly cites that the only aspect that could be considered heresy is the phrase "one day all his sons shall reach his feet, however far they stray" now yes this is Universalism and the church did eventually condemn it, but for nearly 1000yrs the church proclaimed it. And after all, bearing in mind when the liturgy was composed, during a time which witnessed death at levels never seen before (1919 being the date of first edition), was it such a bad thing to offer hope in a world that was falling apart?
I think also it might be worth looking at the fact that the hymns which are deliberately in the Liturgy are there for a specific reason. They change the mass from being a "mini easter" to a "mini christmas". It becomes an Incarnational Eucharist, very much in the charism of St Francis of Asissi. As I'm sure you know the Franciscan Spirituality did have a large impact upon Liberal Catholicism. So viewed in this way, the LCC Mass is actually one of hope and promise, focusing on the finer qualities of humanity in hope that what we focus on increases. We see this with children, if you put too much emphasis on the negative behaviour, thats what you get the most. Re-inforce the positive and that's also what you get.
Fr Chris
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
Hi,
[1.] was it such a bad thing to offer hope in a world that was falling apart?
[2.] ..... the LCC Mass is actually one of hope and promise, focusing on the finer qualities of humanity in hope that what we focus on increases.
Thanks - a couple of thoughts
1. It's one thing to offer hope but quite another to misrepresent the truth of Christ's mission. If all are to be saved anyway - why was the cross required?
Hope is dependant on certain conditions - not least "trust and obey."
2. I just don't get this finer qualities of humanity stuff. We have no innate finer qualities - what is in us that is good is not from ourselves but as a result of what God has done. I'd rather focus and praise the giver not the gift is its all the same to you. Christian belief across the denominations (apart it seems from the LCC) takes this stance.
3. The Grail Community website has some more information. http://www.lccgrail.org/
[Edited for clarity. Mamacita, Host]
[ 20. October 2009, 13:22: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Hosting
ExclamationMark, let me suggest you visit the "UBB Practice Thread" in the Styx to practice with the Quotes functions. Also, please note that I placed brackets around the two numerals you inserted in celestialstarfire's quotation -- it's important to be clear on any alteration to the original quote. Thanks for your attention to that.
quote:
Some of us would take exception to their position on [. . . ] homosexuality (no bar to priests or bishops being actively "gay" - rumour has it that some are). Surprise that the Bideford church community seem to accept them as a valid group hmmmmmmm
This statement is a combination of a Dead Horse (gay clergy), speculation ("rumour has it" about someone being gay), and judgmental snark ("hmmmm"). None of these are appropriate in Ecclesiantics.
Mamacita, Ecclesiantics Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
Hi,
I'm new to this ...
Welcome, celestialstarfire, to the Ship of Fools, and thank you for your informative post. If you like, you can introduce yourself on the New Members thread on the All Saints board. You might also take a look at the Ship's FAQs and 10 Commandments (links at the top of the page). Enjoy your travels with us.
Mamacita, Ecclesiantics Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Mamacita
Apologies for intemperance. I will try to remember my manners in future and learn how to do some things properly
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
1. It's one thing to offer hope but quite another to misrepresent the truth of Christ's mission. If all are to be saved anyway - why was the cross required?
[........]
2. I just don't get this finer qualities of humanity stuff. We have no innate finer qualities - what is in us that is good is not from ourselves but as a result of what God has done. I'd rather focus and praise the giver not the gift is its all the same to you. Christian belief across the denominations (apart it seems from the LCC) takes this stance.
I take your points and would like to respond to the second point......
I would like to share what my LCC Parish Priest said to me when I was younger and I asked the exact same points you raised. He suggested that if man is made in God's image (Genesis 9:6) then focusing on these qualities within us and drawing them out, could help one to connect more with God. It was his contention that this would have a "knock on effect" of deepening faith and helping people on their journey of faith. He also used to suggest that perhaps developing these finer qualities would not only make us truer to the teachings of Christ but also it would help to make a little more sense of what Jesus said in the Gospel of John "Ye are gods" (John 10:34)....and of what the psalmist says in Psalm 82:6 ("I said, 'You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High).
Please don't think I am promoting these views, but merely sharing what he told me.
As for the necessity of the cross....I can't really comment on that, its too big a subject and I'm sure it is being discussed thoroughly elsewhere on Ship of Fools.
Though interestingly.....as a side comment Bishop F.W. Pigott (former presiding bishop of the LCC, and the only author of a book of Liberal Catholic Theology; "The Parting of The Ways*") held that the crucifixion wasn't necessarily a "real" event in time and space but also powerful symbol.(I seem to recall seeing something similar to this theory on the BBC last year which disputed the historical accuracy of the crucifixion story).
Pigott held that as a symbol, the crucifixion illustrates the descent of God (Christ) into all matter including humanity. This understanding also seems to give the possibility of a different dimension to what Jesus said in John 10:34 (see above). Following this thread further, Bishop Pigott in his book does discuss how it could be said that salvation is for everyone. He states "because of His mighty aid....(the crucifixion)...every son of man shall in his time come to Oneness with the Father, because every man is indwelt by, and is a fragment of the Christ[.....]In this sense the sacrifice is universal; it is for all, not limited to just a few." He goes on to say "And the sacrifice is [....] not made "once for all" on Calvery. It lasts and will last throughout all ages" until the end.(p57)
I hope you all will forgive the long quote, but as the book is now quite rare, I thought for ease it would be better.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to promote universalism or any other doctrine or dogma, but just reflecting upon comments made about 'The Liturgy' and its contents. And of course throwing in a few other pieces of information about Liberal Catholic understanding quoted from LCC sources which might be interesting .
* 'The Parting of The Ways: The Teachings of the Liberal Catholic Church compared and contrasted with traditional catholic teachings'
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Mamacita
Apologies for intemperance. I will try to remember my manners in future and learn how to do some things properly
Thank you. And congratulations on attaining Shipmate status!
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
The Liberal Catholic Church does seem to be a very small body, and some have criticised it for being eccentric and tiny.
I really do understand those who say this. Some such groups are simply daft, I guess. However, wasn't Christianity in its origins a tiny eccentric group of people!
Sometimes a minority has something to offer the majority.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
Hello everyone. This is my first post at SoF.
I am a Liberal Catholic (and a Freemason for that matter). This thread is the reason why I have joined this forum, and for the most part I am impressed at the level of discourse here and plan on sticking around. Much ado has been said about how small the LCC is, how fragmented it is currently, how insignificant it is, that it is dying out, et cetera. I would point out that while the original LCC (for most purposes known as the "old synod") is dwindling, the "splinter" groups are holding steady and in some cases growing.
For my first post, I would like to supply the multiple requests for URL's for LCC denominations in the UK.
The first two have been supplied already, the rest are for your perusal:
http://www.lccgrail.org/ (a splinter LCC denomination.)
http://www.stfrancislcc.bravehost.com/index.html (original synod that does not ordain women)
http://lccinbi.org/index.htm (new synod that ordains women)
http://www.liberalcatholic.org.uk (LCCI - the first splinter.)
http://www.reformedlcc.org (a small group in the UK that is at present rebuilding their site, so it is pointed to a US site.)
http://www.onesuffolk.co.uk/thewellchapel (an independent LCC parish.)
I will revisit the thread to see if I can answer any other questions or objections.
Pax!
Rev. Jason
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
1. It's one thing to offer hope but quite another to misrepresent the truth of Christ's mission. If all are to be saved anyway - why was the cross required?
I wasn't aware that "the truth of Christ's mission" was being misrepresented by Liberal Catholics? Would you care to elaborate further?
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Hi there patriotic_mason. Its cool that some LCC guys are posting here. Thanks for the time and the insights.
If you're still around I'd like to ask you guys - are you cradle LCC or did you convert.
How do you think your liturgy compares with that opf other churches - I mean kinda what do you think is special about LCC liturgy and you'd miss if it wasnt there.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
[QB] Hi there patriotic_mason. Its cool that some LCC guys are posting here. Thanks for the time and the insights.
We are small in number, but I believe we fill an important gap in the church catholic.
quote:
If you're still around I'd like to ask you guys - are you cradle LCC or did you convert.
I am a convert. In my experience with three different LC denominations, most members are converts. It's very rare to find a second or third generation Liberal Catholic.
As for my spiritual journey, I was raised a Mormon, converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, and then left to find something more meaningful. I was searching for a mystic Christianity, something full of stately ritual but thin on dogma, and the LCC is what I was looking for.
quote:
How do you think your liturgy compares with that opf other churches - I mean kinda what do you think is special about LCC liturgy and you'd miss if it wasnt there.
The Liberal Rite is a very mystic ritual. While it looks more like a Tridentine Rite liturgy, I believe it has the spiritual feel of an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
I am a "smells and bells" kinda guy. Finding a church that fills my inner craving for solemn and meaningful ritual without requiring me to check my brain at the door is an indescribable relief. I cannot put into words the immense burden that was lifted from me knowing that I may commune freely and not feel as though I am lying to myself or, on the other hand, worry about offending my fellow parishioners should they discover my (gasp!) heterodoxy.
Hope that helps.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
If you're still around I'd like to ask you guys - are you cradle LCC or did you convert.
Hi,
Yes I was brought up Liberal Catholic in what some call nowadays the 'old synod' and I am a theology graduate.
I think I'd miss the broad spirtual outlook embodied in the liturgy. Also when one begins to really examine the thought and work put into the Liturgy by Wedgwood et al. it becomes quite profound. Or atleast it does for me.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
.....I would point out that while the original LCC (for most purposes known as the "old synod") is dwindling, the "splinter" groups are holding steady and in some cases growing.
Hey....as far as I know there are some areas of definate growth in the "old" LCC, or atleast that's the case here in Britain.
As for some of the URLS....can I just point out that the RLCC website is in fact inaccurate...I know because I used to maintain the reformedlcc.org website and it ceased to be because the Bishop wasn't interested in transferring ownership and renewing the various fees. Currently the site administered by David Linley in America is factually incorrect and yes I do have an abundance of e mails evidencing this. He tried to force yet another schism and it backfired....the main end result was he set up his new ecclesial body and a short while after the majority of the British RLCC clergy resigned. to my knowledge, there is one elderly blind female priest and a Bishop in England. Lindley was admitting mainly people to his new church as opposed to the RLCC USA. He also has maligned two priests on his website who refused to support misbehvaiour by the presiding bishop and who also wouldn't subscribe to Lindley's policy of tithing in return for clergy licenses.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
Not meaning to "bash" any LCC grouping or not....but it does state on the American RLCC website that their presiding bishop claims to have dismissed clergy and abrogated and abnegated their orders.....interestingly in the days before that they resigned and transferred out.....Also....the LCC Liturgy does make it abundantly clear that ordination is eternal and an irrevocable act......it shows the level of understanding and education (or lack thereof) when someone who has been made a bishop presumes to talk in terms of "ex-Priest(s)" despite the clarity of his own Liturgy on the matter. Though interestingly one of the alleged ex priests was consecrated by the Young Rite in July.
What is everyone else's thoughts on ordination? In your opinions is it eternal? Or is it something you can be fired from?
I was always told that it was eternal as a sacramental act.
I know I may appear to have " a bee in my bonnet" about this issue, but it is only because when things like that are written on websites it does nothing for the credibility of the Liberal Charism.
Oh and as an after thought.....what does everyone think about "The Young Rite" ? For those who don't know....its currently headed by the son of the former Presiding Bishop of 'The Liberal Catholic Church'. They are promoting universal priesthood, but not everyone is an official celebrant in the name of the church.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
What is everyone else's thoughts on ordination? In your opinions is it eternal? Or is it something you can be fired from?
I was always told that it was eternal as a sacramental act.
A couple of suggestions, celestialstarfire: First, while that's an excellent question, it would be a significant digression from the original topic of this thread. If you'd like to pursue it, please start a new thread.
Second, the topic itself will probably lend itself better to Purgatory, our main discussion board. Ecclesiantics is more specialized around liturgy. Each of the boards has a description of its particular remit at the top of its front page, as well as in the Ship's FAQs.
Mamacita, Ecclesiantics Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Welcome to Ecclesiantics, patriotic_mason. If you like, you can introduce yourself on the New Members thread on the All Saints board. You might also take a look at the Ship's FAQs and 10 Commandments (links at the top of the page). Enjoy your travels with us.
Mamacita, Ecclesiantics Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
[QB] Hey....as far as I know there are some areas of definate growth in the "old" LCC, or atleast that's the case here in Britain.
I apologize. I heard from a European Bishop that such was not the case in the UK or Europe. I'm glad to hear it's prospering too! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
As for some of the URLS....can I just point out that the RLCC website is in fact inaccurate...I know because I used to maintain the reformedlcc.org website and it ceased to be because the Bishop wasn't interested in transferring ownership and renewing the various fees. Currently the site administered by David Linley in America is factually incorrect and yes I do have an abundance of e mails evidencing this.
I own the reformedlcc.org domain, and I am pointing it to +David's site out of the goodness of my heart.
No need to talk about +David. I've had my share of issues with his Order of St Thomas church a few years back. IMO, he's looking for a way to fund his lifestyle without having to earn a living like the rest of LCC clergy.
I too don't like bashing various LCC groups, and I will let this be sufficient.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Thanks patriotic-mason.
Its fab to have those UK websites. Its a pity they're so hard to find. It gives the impression the LCC isnt too bothered about outreach. Is that right?
The http://www.stfrancislcc.bravehost.com/index.html
url you say is original LCC. But does that mean there is just one church thats original LCC?
Soemthing I was wondering about is do all these churches use the same liturgy, and what Calendar does the LCC use - like which saints days etc. That gives an impression to me of where a church lies.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
No need to talk about +David.
Indeed - unless it is undisputed public record - it is good to throw the word alleged around a lot, we don't want to lay ourselves open to a law suit.
Thanks,
T²
Eccles Host
[ 24. October 2009, 22:09: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Oh and on that original synod church again - just where is Tekels Park? and aren't they a bit daft for not saying where they are?!
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Its fab to have those UK websites. Its a pity they're so hard to find. It gives the impression the LCC isnt too bothered about outreach. Is that right?
Unfortunately that's not a strictly correct impression.....The LCC does not try and attract converts deliberatley from other denominations. It also tends to follow the Franciscan ideal of believing its better to preach the gospel through action rather than words too.
quote:
The http://www.stfrancislcc.bravehost.com/index.html url you say is original LCC. But does that mean there is just one church thats original LCC?
Well....the "branch" of the church headed up by Bp Graham Wale is the original Liberal Catholic Church. Other "branches" have arisen as they decided to split from the church. In some cases such as the LCC in America (known as the LCCI elsewhere) almost all of the clergy involved in the schism did eventually reconcile with the "Mother" Church.
quote:
Soemthing I was wondering about is do all these churches use the same liturgy, and what Calendar does the LCC use - like which saints days etc. That gives an impression to me of where a church lies.
They all use a very Similar liturgy. For example, what became known as the LCCI took the 1940's edition of the Liturgy as their base and added their own innovations and ammendments to the Liturgy.
Those "branches" of the Liberal Catholic Church which have tried to become more P.C. have adopted gender inclusive language particularly for ordinations.
In my opinion, the best edition of the Liberal Catholic Liturgy to date is the fifth edition, published in 1983. It has the right balance of "mystical" christianity and "orthodox" western christianity. I'm lucky in that I have a copy of every edition of 'The Liturgy' and can see how it has varied over the years. Its quite interesting to see ! For example the 1920's edition of the Liturgy included prayers and commemorations for things which today do not exist such as "Empire Day".
The LCC Liturgical Calender is not particulary "heavy" on Saints, although a few are commemorated and I think atleast one Martyr (St. Alban, the Patron Saint of The Liberal Catholic Church). The Eucharistic Liturgy does however commemorate the communion of saints as part of the rite.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Oh and on that original synod church again - just where is Tekels Park? and aren't they a bit daft for not saying where they are?!
Tekels Park is in Camberly in England. Those who are quite involved in Liberal Catholicism know that it is where Bishop Wedgwood retired to. It is also the site of Wedgood's own personal Chapel. I agree it would be useful if they did explain that for non LCC people.
It is a historical fact that the "branch" of 'The Liberal Catholic Church' currently headed up by Bishop Graham Wale is the "original" Liberal Catholic Church. It was Bishop Arnold Harris Mathew's Old Catholic Mission which changed its name to 'The Liberal Catholic Church' in 1916. For more information I would reccommend the small volume The Apostolical Succession in The Liberal Catholic Church published by the St Alban Press.
All the other LCC church organisations "came out of or from" them.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Low Treason
Shipmate
# 11924
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Posted
Is not the LCC a syncretic mixture of Christianity and Theosophy?
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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.
Posts: 1914 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Low Treason:
Is not the LCC a syncretic mixture of Christianity and Theosophy?
It is true that many of the initial members of The Liberal Catholic Church were Theosophists, and some of the Bishops had an interest in Theosophy and in the case of Bp Leadbeater he wrote a book, The Science of The Sacraments, which clearly is influenced by Theosophy. As a result of this outsiders and critics almost immediately assume that the Church and theosophy are inextricably linked. This is not so. In the early days of The Liberal Catholic Church there were many critics within both the Church and the Theosophical Society who criticised the notion of a connection between both bodies. I believe it was the Australian T.S. which published pamphlets against having an association with the LCC. (Although it may have been the American T.S. I honestly can't remember which).
Bishop James I. Wedgwood in the first edition of The Liturgy states the importance of intellectual freedom quite strongly. Even today most "branches" of The Liberal Catholic Church do not enforce any Theosophical belief.
Interestingly, earlier in this thread (a few pages back) someone asked for a specific instance of theosophy occuring in the Liberal Catholic Liturgy and quite rightly no one was able to demonstrate this.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Knopwood
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
It is a historical fact that the "branch" of 'The Liberal Catholic Church' currently headed up by Bishop Graham Wale is the "original" Liberal Catholic Church.
Corporately perhaps, but the cursory research I've done in support of this thread seems to indicate that it was the hierarchy's departure from its previous tolerance of non-Theosophists that triggered the schism.
(Contrast with Swedenborgianism, say, where the older of the two main denominations is the "liberal" one, and the newer branch is larger and more conservative).
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celestialstarfire
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quote:
Corporately perhaps, but the cursory research I've done in support of this thread seems to indicate that it was the hierarchy's departure from its previous tolerance of non-Theosophists that triggered the schism.
The only information I could find online is that posted by the LCCI. Unfortunatley I have not seen any form of comment on it online from the "old" branch of the Church. Which would be rather interesting.
Just a thought.....
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Eddy
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In the Mass of the LCC how many ministers are needed - for a Low Mass and for a High Mass?
The LCC seems to have loads of orders of ministry, you see, and I was wondering how they function in the liturgy.
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
It is a historical fact that the "branch" of 'The Liberal Catholic Church' currently headed up by Bishop Graham Wale is the "original" Liberal Catholic Church.
Corporately perhaps, but the cursory research I've done in support of this thread seems to indicate that it was the hierarchy's departure from its previous tolerance of non-Theosophists that triggered the schism.
(Contrast with Swedenborgianism, say, where the older of the two main denominations is the "liberal" one, and the newer branch is larger and more conservative).
To my knowledge, only the Old Synod LCC, and the LCC - Theosophia Synod in Florida mandate membership in the TS, require Clergy in Major Orders be Vegetarians, accept without question reincarnation and belief in the Ascended Masters.
The other "branches" of the Liberal Catholic movement leave all of that optional.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
In the Mass of the LCC how many ministers are needed - for a Low Mass and for a High Mass?
The LCC seems to have loads of orders of ministry, you see, and I was wondering how they function in the liturgy.
Celestialstarfire may be able to answer this much better than I can.
It is my understanding that a the "shorter form" of the Mass (a low mass) can be done by a Bishop or Priest alone if necessary. I believe a server would be useful in the low mass, but I've seen it done by a lone Bishop.
The regular Mass needs at least a celebrant, a thurifer, and a cruicfer.
While the LCC does still ordain and use the Minor Orders (including the Subdiaconate), in practical use there doesn't appear to be any special office one must attain to assist at the altar (of course only a Priest and Deacon may handle the items at the altar, but that's another issue.)
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
To my knowledge, only the Old Synod LCC, and the LCC - Theosophia Synod in Florida mandate membership in the TS, require Clergy in Major Orders be Vegetarians, accept without question reincarnation and belief in the Ascended Masters.
The other "branches" of the Liberal Catholic movement leave all of that optional.
Well....here's the interesting thing....my Parish Priest and atleast one bishop I know in the LCC was never a member of the T.S. nor is the LCC Parish Priest of Birmingham Dr David Bennett. Nor was he required to believe in reincarnation.
It seems to be a misconception that nowadays membership of the T.S. vegetarianism, and belief in reincarnation is mandatory.....I've seen the recent application forms for ordinands, and they don't state a belief in the masters, vegetarianism nor theosophy as conditions for membership or being ordained.
[Code fix - T², Eccles Host]
[ 27. October 2009, 23:14: Message edited by: Think² ]
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
While the LCC does still ordain and use the Minor Orders (including the Subdiaconate), in practical use there doesn't appear to be any special office one must attain to assist at the altar (of course only a Priest and Deacon may handle the items at the altar, but that's another issue.)
Wouldn't that be Altar Server?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
But on a serious note....the first "minister" to assist at the Altar is of course the Sub-Deacon. Originally most parishes had atleast a Priest, Deacon and Sub-Deacon. Those in Minor Orders often are admitted as Altar Servers too and will "fill in" the gaps such as being thurifer, crucifer, boat bearer etc. depending on the celibration. Also, often Deaconesses will help distribute communion and can sit in the sanctuary and help by serving. Bishops Wedgwood and Leadbeater sought to restore the honoured lay ministry of the Deaconess and I believe Annie Besant was a Deaconess. Its a shame that this office isn't really utilised elsewhere in the church.
Ultimately only one "minister" is needed for the mass though.....the rest share the work and of course they do help it run more smoothly and make it look prettier. The one "minister" of course is the Priest or Bishop, often LCC Priests and Bishops will celebrate the mass alone like this at home.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
To my knowledge, only the Old Synod LCC, and the LCC - Theosophia Synod in Florida mandate membership in the TS, require Clergy in Major Orders be Vegetarians, accept without question reincarnation and belief in the Ascended Masters.
The other "branches" of the Liberal Catholic movement leave all of that optional.
Well....here's the interesting thing....my Parish Priest and atleast one bishop I know in the LCC was never a member of the T.S. nor is the LCC Parish Priest of Birmingham Dr David Bennett. Nor was he required to believe in reincarnation.
It seems to be a misconception that nowadays membership of the T.S. vegetarianism, and belief in reincarnation is mandatory.....I've seen the recent application forms for ordinands, and they don't state a belief in the masters, vegetarianism nor theosophy as conditions for membership or being ordained.
Very interesting. I wonder, then, if the only thing keeping the various branches of the LCC apart are the hierarchs?
[ 27. October 2009, 15:25: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
Sorry about my previous post formatting. Seems I should check it before posting. (and now I know you can't edit a post after 1 minute.)
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dj_ordinaire
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Lol that's alright! I've fixed the last one for you - but yes, do make use of the 'Preview post' button, it's your friend
There is also a thread in the Styx for practicing your UBB coding.
dj_ordinaire, Ecclesiantics host
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Eddy
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Posted
quote:
require Clergy in Major Orders be Vegetarians, accept without question reincarnation and belief in the Ascended Masters.
It seems to me these requirements are not common in mainstream Christianity, although they may be found in some form or another but they're not requirements.
Liturgically - are these doctrines expressed in words in the liturgy.
Can you remind me of what the ascended masters are?
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celestialstarfire
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Can you remind me of what the ascended masters are? [/QB]
They're somthing promoted by Elizabeth Claire Prophet and her Organisation. Originally the Theosophists spoke in terms of "The Masters of the Path".....they are highly evolved spiritual teachers with immense stature spiritually and who have advanced greatly on the path to holiness. Bishop Leadbeater wrote a very good book about "The Masters. The concept put forward by the Theosophists is quite different to Elizabeth Claire Prophet's organisation. Who recently have begun talking of female counterparts of the masters and other things not found in the works of Leadbeater and co.
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celestialstarfire
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quote:
Very interesting. I wonder, then, if the only thing keeping the various branches of the LCC apart are the hierarchs?
Could be.....I don't know.
All I do know is that in my experience the "old" LCC aren'tas bad or restrictive as some would try to make out. I know some might have issues because they don't ordain women, and I will say that I understand their rationale for not ordaining women, but in their defence they have made every effort to promote the role of deaconess. Such innovations inlcude encouraging Deaconesses to take part in many areas of the pastoral work of the Church and they are involved in distributing Communion. I heard that they also get their own ciborium when they are admitted to the order of deaconess. I gather the only thing women don't "do" is celebrate the mass. I don't think they proclaim the Gospel in the mass either.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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patriotic_mason
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quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Liturgically - are these doctrines expressed in words in the liturgy.
No they are not.
There is nothing that I know of in The Liturgy, with the possible exception of one prayer (optional in most LibCath denominations), that even remotely smacks of Theosophy. It is this Invocation:
"May the Holy Ones, whose pupils we aspire to become, show us the Light we seek, give us the strong aid of Their compassion and Their wisdom. There is a peace that passeth understanding; it abides in the hearts of Those who live in the Eternal. There is a power that maketh all things new; it lives and moves in Those who know the Self as one. May that peace brood over us, that power uplift us, till we stand where the One Initiator is invoked, till we see His star shine forth. R/. Amen."
I've heard this prayer was originally written by Annie Besant.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
quote:
Very interesting. I wonder, then, if the only thing keeping the various branches of the LCC apart are the hierarchs?
Could be.....I don't know.
All I do know is that in my experience the "old" LCC aren't as bad or restrictive as some would try to make out. I know some might have issues because they don't ordain women....
If indeed all is as you perceive, then it seems to me that personal egos and women's ordination are all that stand in the way of a reunification among all LCC denominations.
What a pity really. The LibCath movement is so small, it would be nice to have a single group where scarce resources might be pooled in a common effort to reach out.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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celestialstarfire
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quote:
Liturgically - are these doctrines expressed in words in the liturgy.
Interestingly no.....for a while in the liturgy issued in the 1960's it was acceptible in the prayer of consecration, which has prayers for the Church, the bishops, the sick, the dead etc. to add the word "again" in the part of the prayer which runs "those who are about to enter this earthly life through the portal of birth and likewise their mothers-to-be" which becomes "those who are about to enter this earthly life again through the portal of birth".....But this was ALWAYS OPTIONAL.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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quote:
It is this Invocation:
"May the Holy Ones, whose pupils we aspire to become, show us the Light we seek, give us the strong aid of Their compassion and Their wisdom. There is a peace that passeth understanding; it abides in the hearts of Those who live in the Eternal. There is a power that maketh all things new; it lives and moves in Those who know the Self as one. May that peace brood over us, that power uplift us, till we stand where the One Initiator is invoked, till we see His star shine forth. R/. Amen."
Interestingly.....I was always told this was to be used rarely.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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quote:
If indeed all is as you perceive, then it seems to me that personal egos and women's ordination are all that stand in the way of a reunification among all LCC denominations.
What a pity really. The LibCath movement is so small, it would be nice to have a single group where scarce resources might be pooled in a common effort to reach out.
I do know that there was a proposition put forward last year by the RLCC to try and unify the Liberal Catholic Movement only one of the Liberal Catholic Bishops Responded. The current thing that concerns me, is all the pseudo-Liberal Catholics that have appeared who are all personalising it and making it their own. They just further discredit the movement for obvious reasons.
I do feel that the issues you cite most likely have had significant impact on the move toward unity not being accomplished. Patriotic_Mason meessage me if ya want to know more on how everyone just ignored it.
I have experienced much mis-information on why there's no unity and I think the only thing it does is reduce credibility.
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
"May the Holy Ones, whose pupils you aspire to become, show you the Light you seek, give you the strong aid of Their compassion and Their wisdom. There is a peace that passeth understanding; it abides in the hearts of Those who live in the Eternal. There is a power that maketh all things new; it lives and moves in Those who know the Self as one. May that peace brood over us, that power uplift us, till we stand where the One Initiator is invoked, till we see His + star shine forth. R/. Amen."
I have slightly ammended the above prayer to make it inline with the 1983 Liturgy which uses it as a blessing. Its use is OPTIONAL and can be used after the end of the mass.
I will be honest and say that "the Holy Ones" could refer to either the Saints or "the masters". In Liberal Catholic Thought (as articulated by Pigott, Wedgwood and Leadbeater) the "communion of saints" isn't exclusively composed of so called Christian Saints. It was held by Leadbeater et al. that God has spoken through all the religions of the world. Funnily enough Jesus said the same (I have sheep of other folds) and of course Vatican II picked up on this.
Similarly the "One Initiatior" could be in reference to Christ working through a Bishop (when they act Persona Christe) whilst ordaining or if you interpreted it theosophically it could point to one of the Masters (Paul the Venusian but please don't ask me to elaborate here, it would take us too far off task).
And of course the "Star" could be pointing towards the Nativity and metaphoriclaly finding Christ. Or it could similarly relate to a theosophical concept.
However, there is no guidance from the Church that this blessing should be interprested theosophically, the Church in her wisdom has allowed you to interpret the meaning.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Eddy
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Thanks for this full and interesting information. It seems LCC has a lot to show other churches about variety and acceptance and not forcing a hard doctrine stance on folk.
Do those branches that don't like women priests ordain gays?
quote:
They're somthing promoted by Elizabeth Claire Prophet and her Organisation.
Which is what?
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patriotic_mason
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quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Which is what?
That would be her "Church Universal and Triumphant". Interestingly enough, I just found out that Prophet died two weeks ago. I didn't know that.
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Thanks for this full and interesting information. It seems LCC has a lot to show other churches about variety and acceptance and not forcing a hard doctrine stance on folk.
Do those branches that don't like women priests ordain gays?
I raised the question of sexuality with my former parish priest who was trained in the "old" LCC. If I can paraphrase in my own words what he told me, he said that sexuality was not something they focused a great deal on on when examining suitability of candidates and testing their vocation, provided the persons sexuality was legal, consensual and not predatorial. Though for an official answer, as always I'd reccommend contacting them directly
As for the whole "variety and acceptance" notion, my priest always used to say that one of the beauties of The Liberal Catholic Church was that it rejoiced in "reconciled diversity".
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Eddy
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quote:
In Liberal Catholic Thought (as articulated by Pigott, Wedgwood and Leadbeater) the "communion of saints" isn't exclusively composed of so called Christian Saints. It was held by Leadbeater et al. that God has spoken through all the religions of the world.
Thats interesting, I've personally always thpught that non Christian saints counted as within the Communion of Saints, but, hey, maybe that just isn't Christian normal teaching!
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