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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: The Liturgy of the Liberal Catholic Church
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patriotic_mason
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# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
Patriotic_Mason,
Are you part of the original LCC or the LCCI?
LC2K
I started with the LCCI, but am currently with a break off from the LCCI known as the Universal Catholic Church under +Dean Bekken.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
...the current move towards re-uniting the church might be worth investigating.
I have been following +Muggleston's emails with great interest, and would love to see all Lib Cath branches re-unite in some way for the Centennial in London.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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LibCath2000
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Posted
Patriotic_Mason,
I'm a member of the LCC, Province of the USA, under the Rt. Rev. Graham Wale.
So, while I commend the efforts of the other churches in pursuing full, corporate and sacramental unity, I know it is an offer that is not going to be considered by our Church.
Our refusal to ordain women, will be the primary reason for this.
What are your thoughts?
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
Patriotic_Mason,
I'm a member of the LCC, Province of the USA, under the Rt. Rev. Graham Wale.
So, while I commend the efforts of the other churches in pursuing full, corporate and sacramental unity, I know it is an offer that is not going to be considered by our Church.
Our refusal to ordain women, will be the primary reason for this.
What are your thoughts?
LC2K
Well I think that's unfortunate, but I know there are those who honestly feel women are not suitable vessels for the Priesthood. I would rather hope for something more alone the lines of the Anglicans, who in certain provences allow those parishes who cannot accept female clergy the right to retain male only clergy.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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LibCath2000
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Posted
quote:
Well I think that's unfortunate, but I know there are those who honestly feel women are not suitable vessels for the Priesthood. I would rather hope for something more alone the lines of the Anglicans, who in certain provences allow those parishes who cannot accept female clergy the right to retain male only clergy.
You're absolutely right about there being those who do not believe that women can or should be ordained.
I am one of those people.
In fact, today, I believe that we remain the only group which still holds to that position, within Liberal Catholicism.
From my perspective, the other groups which have split, are becoming hardly indistinguishable from the myriad of independent Catholic groups that already exist.
If the Church embraced the Anglican model, it would be disastrous, in my opinion.
"Big tent" models DO NOT work. And in fact, it's the primary reason why I didn't join the Anglicans in the first place.
Personally, I want to see my Church become more embracing of our Catholic heritage, without any lessening the mystical interpretations of our spiritual forefathers.
Since, we are the heirs of Old Catholicism, and since the Utrecht churches themselves now ordain women, I think we have a vital role to play in opening dialogue with other like-minded groups.
It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, we shall wait and see.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
LC2K,
Would you mind giving a brief rationale why you (personally or the LCC generally) do not accept females in the Priesthood?
Is it based on +Leadbeater or the historic tradition for example?
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Please don't. Discussion of women's ordination, or lack of, should take place on the Dead Horses board. You are free to start a new thread there or join one of their old ones.
Discussions of contentious hardy perenials; like women's ordination, homosexuality, abortion and biblical inerrancy, are confined to the one board to avoid overwhelming the ship.
Think²
Eccles Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
Maybe a PM then?
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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LibCath2000
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Posted
Think²,
I wasn't planning on discussing the issue.
I was merely stating the position of my Church-a position which is deeply rooted in our tradition.
I will say no more or less. However, if Patriotic_Mason would like to discuss it further with me, he/she can PM me.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
What you posted was fine, I was posting to unissue the invitation to expand into a dicussion - on this thread.
I suspect the reasoning in the lcc for non ordination of women might be somewhat unusual - if so, it might well be worth its own thread on the Dead Horses board.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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LibCath2000
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# 15363
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Posted
Anyway......
Back to the original topic...
As a Liberal Catholic, former Roman, and a Church-hopping enthusiast ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ... I can attest that in the Liberal Rite, there is certainly more of a "mystical" or transcendent feel to the liturgy- a feeling more conducive of Eastern Orthodox worship.
Of course the vestments of the Liberal Rite are Western as are our customs. But the prayers, in the vernacular and the congregational responses are evocative of the East; at least for me.
Perhaps, one of our other Liberal Catholics on the Forum can provide their input in regards to the actual "feel" of our worship.
LC2K (Also wishing everyone a very joyous Christmas season)
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
Personally, I want to see my Church become more embracing of our Catholic heritage, without any lessening the mystical interpretations of our spiritual forefathers.
I am a "cradle" Liberal Catholic....yes the "original branch" or however people call it nowadays.
I have seriously examined both sides of the whole "women" debate and I think from a Catholic perspective that this has been answered in a very ingenious way by the "Mother" Church.
The re-invigouration of the order of Deaconess is as far as I can see the best solution. It enables women to take part fully in the pastoral life of the Church, whilst not denying the traditionally masculine role of Priest.
I was briefly in favour of the Ordination of women, being Naturally clairvoyant I was most pleased to see that when Bishop Elizabeth Stuart was consecrated, that she was consecrated and that when she celebrates the mass, transubstantiation did occur. However, my stance has changed after much soul searching and reflection, and dispite having read Bp Leadbeaters comments on the matter raising the possibility of the ordination of women.
However that is a side point.
LC2K, whilst I can appreciate your wanting the Church to lean back into its Catholic Heritage, I would be concerned that this could lead to "Romanism". As Bps Leadbeater and Wedgwood both acknowledge, Rome is a good reference point, however our Liberal Catholic Church must be a progression from the confines of the Roman Church. We may want to dialogue more with our other catholic brethren, but it would be dangerous to not be mindful of our own identity. Some of the other Liberal Rite jurisdictions have lent back into Romanism and they run the risk of becoming bodies which parody Rome. Rather than look at what our other Catholic brethren are doing and learning from them, they seem to want to emulate the Roman Church, who are themselves beginning to suffer from an identity chrisis. This inevitably leads to ridicule, and to me atleast would be a sign of building ones house upon the sand.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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LibCath2000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
I have seriously examined both sides of the whole "women" debate and I think from a Catholic perspective that this has been answered in a very ingenious way by the "Mother" Church.
The re-invigouration of the order of Deaconess is as far as I can see the best solution. It enables women to take part fully in the pastoral life of the Church, whilst not denying the traditionally masculine role of Priest.
I absolutely agree with your statement here about the office of Deaconess, re-established in our tradition.
It is a ancient practice well known to all of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. And in some of these communities today, it has also been revived.
As I've said, this, among other things, has helped keep us in spiritual unity with the rest of the Catholic world, which leads me to the point at hand...
You stated,
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
LC2K, whilst I can appreciate your wanting the Church to lean back into its Catholic Heritage, I would be concerned that this could lead to "Romanism". As Bps Leadbeater and Wedgwood both acknowledge, Rome is a good reference point, however our Liberal Catholic Church must be a progression from the confines of the Roman Church. We may want to dialogue more with our other catholic brethren, but it would be dangerous to not be mindful of our own identity. Some of the other Liberal Rite jurisdictions have lent back into Romanism and they run the risk of becoming bodies which parody Rome. Rather than look at what our other Catholic brethren are doing and learning from them, they seem to want to emulate the Roman Church, who are themselves beginning to suffer from an identity chrisis. This inevitably leads to ridicule, and to me atleast would be a sign of building ones house upon the sand.
As a Liberal Catholic, you should be well aware that there are few, if any, among us who would want to embrace "Romanism" as you say. A good many of us, were in fact, formerly Roman Catholic's.
As for our corporate identity, I believe that it subsists primarily in both Catholicism and Theosophy.
I believe that the Liberal Catholic Church properly contextualizes these two elements.
For us, the Catholic element provides the history and structure necessary to effectuate the Divine plan of God here on earth. And similarly, when theosophy is properly understood, as a form of mystical interpretation, we begin to better understand who we are as a Church.
For us, being Catholic is the most effective way to be, though certainly we recognize that it is not the only way to be.
The Liberal Rite, therefore, is a necessary voice within the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. We provide the mystical view which is often limited, lacking or silenced in the Roman and Orthodox traditions.
So, I think we are prophetically called to a more productive relationship with our Catholic brethren, instead of living in quiet isolation, as has been our practice.
The idea that we would become untrue to our identity is not a concern of mine, as I know that most of us are Liberal Catholics by choice. We've learned and continue to learn that it is possible to balance our Catholic heritage and our theosophical roots.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
For us, the Catholic element provides the history and structure necessary to effectuate the Divine plan of God here on earth. And similarly, when theosophy is properly understood, as a form of mystical interpretation, we begin to better understand who we are as a Church.
I totally agree, I think what many "outsiders" miss or are unable to see is that many of us use theosophy as a "lense" through which to view and understand our faith and also our progress on the spiritual path towards God.
quote:
instead of living in quiet isolation, as has been our practice.
Yes....it is an oddity that the Church has chosen to go its own particular way. But at the same time I think it is understandable, not wanting conflict with others but quietly doing the work is a trait of "yester year". Or being very "Leadbeater" about it, its not wasting energy on something which I would say until fairly recently wouldn't have been achievable. However, I do agree that there should be more out-reach work done before the church fades away. Much would be lost should that be allowed to occur.
It is and has always been my contention, that the Liberal Rite is best suited to reach the spiritual needs of many who cannot find what they are searching for in the larger churches. The qualities disctive to the Liberal Rite as discussed previously are excellent and open the way for others to find what they seek without them having to abandon Christianity. I would also suggest that now when so many are looking for the "magic" of the Church, that the LCC is ideally positioned to help people find it and the path. I would argue that the LCC is perhaps the most mystical of all the modern branches of the catholic church, and that as such we should be actively out there talking about the mystery. Talking about Angels, Saints, healing, whatever the human soul yearns for that the church can provide. Too many of the bigger churches in the face of Western Scepticism have backed away from these subjects, whereas we've always enagaged with them, so we should continue doing so.
quote:
The idea that we would become untrue to our identity is not a concern of mine, as I know that most of us are Liberal Catholics by choice. We've learned and continue to learn that it is possible to balance our Catholic heritage and our theosophical roots.
I do not mean to infer that its not possible to balance the history of the Western Church and our more recent innovations (theosophy et al), but we do need to retain our identity. Or else we become yet another Church selling the same "wares" as everyone else. Ultimately we would become a Church with no real work or purpose, and so we might as well just pack up and go home.
We are inheritors of a wonderful tradition inspired by some really amazing and learned spiritual people. We should utlise the freedom it gives us and help others lost along the way on their journey, of course adhearing to the principles put forward by the Church.
In a previous post someone criticised the many groupings who have split from the LCC; high-lighting how similar they are to other Old Catholic bodies. I would suggest that a similar danger could exist for the LCC should the church lose her way. It would be all too easy to "pander" to the rest of the Catholic world.
I suppose what is behind me taking this thread is that I have a friend who joined one of the other Liberal Rite grouping. The church they are now with is in the process of eliminating almost every theosophical reference and they have re-introduced clerical ranks seen mainly within the Roman Church. I have been told that many of the works of the founders of The Liberal Catholic Church are being slowly taken off the required reading lists for ordinands and their reading discouraged. A re-wording of the Litugy has occurred to remove the passages which hint at the Masters, theosophy ("Divine Wisdom" is removed from the Episcopal Consecration Rite) and some of the more eastern sounding parts of the liturgy. The use of ray crosses and consecrated jewels is not promoted. I have been told that the reading of Leadbeater is now being discouraged. I suppose it is this sort of revisionism in order to "fit in" with the larger catholic bodies which concerns me.
Patriotic_Mason, I don't know if you are aware of any of the things I'm citing here? I hear its happening in America in places too.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
I've seen some evidence of a "backing off" from the more Theosophical elements in both the LCCI and the UCC.
There are, of course, individual members who are very much into Theosophical theory, but the denomination itself is not pushing it.
The UCC encourages mystical study, but not necessarily through a Theosophical lens. The idea of Angels is highly encouraged (especially at Mass), and sharing one's mystical experiences is openly welcomed.
My small sect has only three Bishops. One is essentially inactive and more or less retired. The current PB is nearing retirement, and the last is a convert from Rome who appreciates mysticism, but is not big on +Leadbeater and +Wedgwood. Does that mean the UCC is more like the rest of the Old Catholic world? Not exactly. Though the St Mychal Judge parish in Dallas, Texas (formerly LCCI) has joined the North American Old Catholic Church which is currently seeking to be the official representative of the Utrecht Union here in the USA, while still using the Liberal Rite mass.
So is it possible to bring the LCC tradition into the larger groups without losing it's identity? I'm watching St Mychal Judge parish in Texas to see how well that is received. If the NAOCC is made a member church of the UU, then that would also bring them into communion with the Anglicans. That's a large group for a Liberal Rite parish to be exposed to. Fascinating to say the least.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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LibCath2000
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Posted
CSF,
You said...
quote:
It is and has always been my contention, that the Liberal Rite is best suited to reach the spiritual needs of many who cannot find what they are searching for in the larger churches. The qualities disctive to the Liberal Rite as discussed previously are excellent and open the way for others to find what they seek without them having to abandon Christianity.
This is exactly what I've been suggesting. The Liberal Catholic Church fills a niche within the entire Catholic communion.
I would argue that we remain one of the last remnants of the mystical tradition within Catholicism.
We labor to maintain the sense of the sacred. And as you've stated, many people today are yearning for just that.
Throwing away our entire tradition, as some groups have already done, is not the way forward. However, I am not entirely opposed to subtle changes which would merely serve to clarify what is already taught-especially ideas of a theosophical nature.
But I do worry that our long-standing fear of proselytizing, has now evolved into a lax attitude towards any form of public witness or outreach. This will hamper our efforts to reach out to disaffected believers seeking a more mystical path to Christ. This is an important issue that all of us, whether laity or clergy, need to begin working on.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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LibCath2000
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# 15363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
... the St Mychal Judge parish in Dallas, Texas (formerly LCCI) has joined the North American Old Catholic Church which is currently seeking to be the official representative of the Utrecht Union here in the USA, while still using the Liberal Rite mass.
This is interesting...
From what I understood, the churches of the Utrecht Union, have unequivocally pronounced that their only U.S. representative is the Protestant Episcopal Church (TEC).
This was made possible, through the Bonn Agreement of 1931, between the Old Catholic Churches and the Anglican Communion.
There was an effort by an agency calling itself, the Conference of North American Old Catholic Bishops, to gain recognition from Utrecht, but I think it met with little success.
As far the LCC is concerned, I believe that more concentrated efforts on evangelization would ultimately provide us with the visibility we needed in order to witness to a greater number of people.
I believe that a formal dialogue with any of the other sacramental churches, outside of our movement, would also be most appropriate.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The discussion of the internal polity of the LCC is interesting, but probably needs to be a purg thread. You'd be able to copy a few of the substantive posts from here, to form the OP.
T²
Eccles Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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LibCath2000
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Posted
I think we can return to the topic at hand.
I had last asked the following question...
quote:
Perhaps, one of our other Liberal Catholics on the Forum can provide their input in regards to the actual "feel" of our worship.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Eddy
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Posted
Yes thats a interesting one. It would be good to know how it compares with say TEC or RCC worship?
Another thing is the Liturgy just in English. Mention has been made of soem congregations in US and Australia and perhaps a few people in the UK, but what about other languages, has the liturgy been recited in other languages of the world?
There seems a big German influence. maybe German then is used sometimes?
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celestialstarfire
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# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Another thing is the Liturgy just in English.
The services are celebrated in the vernacular, however the official language for official documents etc. is English.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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LibCath2000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Yes thats a interesting one. It would be good to know how it compares with say TEC or RCC worship?
Another thing is the Liturgy just in English. Mention has been made of soem congregations in US and Australia and perhaps a few people in the UK, but what about other languages, has the liturgy been recited in other languages of the world?
There seems a big German influence. maybe German then is used sometimes?
There is a fairly good side-by-side comparison of the Liberal Catholic liturgy and the traditional Roman liturgy here.
As to the language of the liturgy, the Liberal Catholic Church, being the heir to the Old Catholic tradition in Britain, has always used a vernacular liturgy.
I myself, have only experienced the LCC liturgy in languages other than English.
To get an idea of the wide variety of languages used by our church, the Liberal Catholic Church, Province of Brazil, has included links to some of our churches around the world.
These can be found here.
Hope this helps.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Eddy
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Posted
That Brazil webiste was a good help to see where LCC church is. Thanks for that. It seems to be West Europe, US, Brazil, Australia.
So are there no African liturgies or Asian liturgies in LCC?
That made me wonder if in the LCC church there is just one liturgy of Mass which is then translated, rather than letting local people develop their own Mass in their own culture.
Does LCC church ignore local culture and have a culture of its own?
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LibCath2000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
That Brazil webiste was a good help to see where LCC church is. Thanks for that. It seems to be West Europe, US, Brazil, Australia.
So are there no African liturgies or Asian liturgies in LCC?
That made me wonder if in the LCC church there is just one liturgy of Mass which is then translated, rather than letting local people develop their own Mass in their own culture.
Does LCC church ignore local culture and have a culture of its own?
The Liberal Catholic Church is found throughout the world, including Africa and Asia.
But as I said in my previous post, the links were only to some of our churches around the world.
If you click on the link to the Province of France, you will see some images of the Liberal Catholic Church in Africa.
Finally, the worldwide Liberal Catholic Church, uses one liturgy, in the various languages.
Since the LCC liturgy was devised, aside from minor revisions, it has not undergone many changes.
In a nutshell, this is because the LCC values the Mass and the energy which flows through it. So to change or modernize the liturgy, as the majority of Roman's have done, would significantly alter this flow of energy.
For more on the concept of energy in the mass, please read The Science of the Sacraments.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
You know I can see where you guys are coming from, but I can't quite see why using traditional language is so necessary for the 'energy'. I'd have thought the energy was from ritual and action more than from specific words.
It seems to me that if translation into other languages is alowed then translation into modern English would be OK too - or have I missed a point here?
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LibCath2000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
You know I can see where you guys are coming from, but I can't quite see why using traditional language is so necessary for the 'energy'. I'd have thought the energy was from ritual and action more than from specific words.
It seems to me that if translation into other languages is alowed then translation into modern English would be OK too - or have I missed a point here?
In Catholic terms, there is a phrase, "Lex orandi, lex credendi" which loosely translates into 'the way you pray is the way you believe.'
For us, language and liturgy go hand-in-hand.
Therefore, we believe that a precise, traditional liturgy with a precise use of the language can best effectuate the divine outpouring of energy.
To use a modernized text in our worship would simply be incongruous with what we believe.
LC2K
(Wishing everyone a Happy belated New Year!)
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
being the heir to the Old Catholic tradition in Britain, has always used a vernacular liturgy.
LC2k, I think you are incorrect here....the LCC was the FIRST catholic "body" to use the vernacular universally. It was used in the vernacular well before Vatican II, now whilst I can see some Anglicans might argue otherwise that was addressed earlier in this discussion. What most forget is that the LCC is the continuation of Archbishop Mathew's 'Old Catholic Mission' and so use of the vernacular at this early stage was particular to this "body" and not the Old Catholic Church as a whole.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
Since the LCC liturgy was devised, aside from minor revisions, it has not undergone many changes.
Owning every edition of 'The Liturgy' I would disagree with this statement. The LCC has constantly liturgically oscilated between a more "orthodox" (not meaning eastern but traditional) interpretation of its Liturgy and a more mystical interpretation. The most obvious example being the comparison between the liturgies of the 1940's which were very "western catholic" and the 1960's which were bordering on Gnostic. Even then, the 1940's edition of 'The Liturgy' is "missing" several passages from the Canon of the
Mass, which made the rite more mystical. Then in the 1960's we see an upsurge of esotericism. Then in the 1970's following the trend of the other Western Churches, the LCC did create its own 'Folk Masses'. I would argue that the "best work" of the church has been the 1983 edition of 'The Liturgy' which actually manages to strike the best balance between mysticism and "orthodox catholicism" published under the authority of Bishop Sten Von Krusenstierna.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
To use a modernized text in our worship would simply be incongruous with what we believe.
I'm sorry LC2K but I would disagree with this too. I'm not trying to disagree with you all the time, but I believe this is too "all-encompassing" a statement for me not to comment on.
Should modern language be able to adequately convey the meaning and ideals set forth by the more Traditional Language, I am sure that many Liberal Catholics would embrace it. However, modern English does not always convey as precisely as in previous times the meanings we would wish to convey.
Modernisation could occur should there be demand, but only with very careful revision of the text and at this time the general opinion seems to be, to quote an old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
It could even theoretically be possible to construct a "Liberal Catholic version" of the Novus Ordo, but the Church in her wisdom has never sought to do so. However, in its current state (without revision) I believe it has been held by many Liberal Catholics that the Novus Ordo is inadequate for what we hope to achieve through our Liturgy.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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LibCath2000
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Posted
CSF,
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
I'm not trying to disagree with you all the time...[/QB]
It is what it is.
Now, as to the point about the usage of the vernacular in the LCC, I correctly pointed out that our tradition was the heir to Old Catholicism in Britain, which at the time of our founding, did in fact use a vernacular liturgy.
In other words, we did not start using the vernacular once we separated from the Old Catholic's, it was already in use-universally or not.
I suppose I could have been clearer in my original post, but either way, it was not the heart of my point.
Next...
In reference to the current liturgy employed by the Church, I do not find that there is a significant departure from both our traditional Catholic rubrics and our traditional mystical understandings found in the original liturgy.
I believe that one would be hard pressed to say that the original LCC Rite is diametrically distinctive to the liturgy used today.
Finally, you said,
quote:
It could even theoretically be possible to construct a "Liberal Catholic version" of the Novus Ordo...
This is certainly true, since we believe that energy can and does flow from any and every spiritually advantageous act.
However, we have found that the traditional liturgy is the best conduit in which the divine presence and energy can radiate through the body of believers. This traditional liturgy is therefore, best coupled with a traditional language. That is what I meant.
Hope this has clarified things for you and others.
LC2K
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Eddy
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Posted
But my point seems to have been left out here. You are saying English language old fashioned trad language is the best.
But I'm saying when you translate into other languages do you translate into the vernacular - that is the language of the people or do you translate into a bygone version of the vernacular?
if you translate into a moder form in translation then why not a modern form of English?
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LibCath2000
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Posted
Eddy,
I guess I have not been clear.
For the Liberal Catholic Church, Province of the USA, traditional language liturgies are preferred.
They are preferred, for a variety of reasons. Some of the reasons are much the same as those cited by traditionalist Anglicans and Romans who also favor more traditional language liturgies.
There is, I believe, a concern that if one were to begin drastically modernizing the liturgy, then things begin to "get lost in translation." Ultimately, these changes may end up directly impacting long-held beliefs.
This of course, WOULD BE, a cause for a new thread.
As for the LCC, the current trend, has encouraged the balance between our Catholic heritage and our theosophical roots.
This is evident, if you have read or experienced our liturgy.
We are committed to being a Catholic Christian community that experiences the Faith, through a mystical lens.
Therefore, theosophy is not an end in and of itself; it is a means.
As to your other point, I worship primarily in a language other than English, which also uses a more traditional form of the vernacular. The same reasoning that I posited above, is reason for our using this form of the language.
There are plenty of churches which use modern language liturgies, and with success, so more power to them.
We opt not to, and that has been largely our tradition, despite what others might suggest.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
But my point seems to have been left out here. You are saying English language old fashioned trad language is the best.
But I'm saying when you translate into other languages do you translate into the vernacular - that is the language of the people or do you translate into a bygone version of the vernacular?
if you translate into a moder form in translation then why not a modern form of English?
The Spanish version of the Liturgy uses a traditional form rather than a contemporary form.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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Eddy
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Posted
OK thanks for that its clear to me now and thanks for taking the time to explain what the LCC church is about on this one. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
This then makes me think about those churches that have trad liturgies. They sometimes have modern or para liturgies at other times - like children's liturgy, or youth services, as well as the traditional Mass.
Has LCC developed this tradition, or is it more strict in sticking to traditional liturgy in all its worship forms?
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LibCath2000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
OK thanks for that its clear to me now and thanks for taking the time to explain what the LCC church is about on this one.
This then makes me think about those churches that have trad liturgies. They sometimes have modern or para liturgies at other times - like children's liturgy, or youth services, as well as the traditional Mass.
Has LCC developed this tradition, or is it more strict in sticking to traditional liturgy in all its worship forms?
"The mass, is the mass, is the mass"
Aside from the primary liturgy used in the LCC, there are also healing services, Marian services (in addition to the Rosary of the Seven Rays), and our version of the Divine Office.
All of these services, can be found in our Liturgy Book(s).
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Eddy
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Posted
So no experimental liturgy, or liturgies for youth or children or whatever...
Its a shame if not because it seems LCC church has so much to offer
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LibCath2000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
So no experimental liturgy, or liturgies for youth or children or whatever...
Its a shame if not because it seems LCC church has so much to offer
I'm sorry Eddy...
But let me see if I understand you correctly...
You seem to imply that churches, like the LCC, which prefer to maintain more traditional liturgies are somehow deficient in their lack of "user friendly" services.
We know that there are sacramental bodies, like the Episcopalians and Old Catholics who love to experiment with liturgies. They often do this with great success. Good for them.
Now, let me get to the real heart of the matter.
One of the primary reasons that the LCC exists, and in fact, why so many other 'Catholic' churches exist, is because, while we have similar historical, theological and organizational structures, we all differ in our approaches to ecclesiology.
This means, that while we share a common bond, as "Catholics," our individual churches really do serve very distinct types of spiritualities/communities.
Just because something works in one community, does not mean it will work, or is even desired, by another community.
In the end, we all proclaim that we are members of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
I think this is sufficient.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
So no experimental liturgy, or liturgies for youth or children or whatever...
Its a shame if not because it seems LCC church has so much to offer
Those who experiment with liturgy do so because they have a different understanding of the purpose of the Liturgy.
The LCC liturgy is not done because it is a more traditional style. It is done because it accomplishes a very specific purpose, and to deviate might weaken that purpose.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
I believe that one would be hard pressed to say that the original LCC Rite is diametrically distinctive to the liturgy used today.
I do not believe I claimed there was a diametric opposition, but what I have said and continue to say is that there has been fluctuation in the influences expressed in 'The Liturgy'. There is no way that one cannot say that. For example, the edition published in the 1960's VERY gnostic, but the 1940's edition of 'The Liturgy' was very 'Western Catholic'.
Interestingly, successive editions from the 1919 edition of 'The Liturgy' have expanded and re-organised the Shorter Form of the Eucharist.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
if you translate into a moder form in translation then why not a modern form of English?
Hi Eddy,
Bishop Leadbeater was particularly fond of traditional english, believing it more eloquently expressed ideas and ideals. There is no "rule" preventing a modern language version of the LCC liturgy, its just that when they last came to review it all the decision was made not to alter this. It has been the choice of the Church not to change.
I believe that suitable language which conveys the intended ideals and concepts is used when translating into languages other than english.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Has LCC developed this tradition, or is it more strict in sticking to traditional liturgy in all its worship forms?
In the 1970's extensive work was done to see if the Eucharistic Rites of the Church could be re-orientated in the same way that Vatican II had altered the rites of the Roman Church. However, I believe it was decided that we could not adequately adapt the rites and a complete re-write was seen as out of the question.
There was also work done to create an LCC version of the 'Folk Mass' phenomena. But this too died a death.
Under Bishop Sten von Krusenstierna there was also much liturgical work done relating to the Holy lady Mary. Marian Benediction and Compline were developed, as well as other rites.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
somehow deficient in their lack of "user friendly" services.
Well....I hate to say this but to "outsiders" I think the Liturgy is verbose and this can be a barrier, as other churches have simplified the way they work. Although Leadbeater in 1924 did state that the rubrics were designed to try to help people to "follow what is taking place". I believe they do help, but it would not be possible to easily adapt the Eucharistic Rites any further than they have been without losing their distinct beauty and character.
We know that there are sacramental bodies, like the Episcopalians and Old Catholics who love to experiment with liturgies. They often do this with great success. Good for them.
The Liberal Catholic Church has, as I have stated before, taken time to do its own fair share of experimental work regarding Liturgy. In the past it has never shied away from trying something new, and to assert otherwise is a mistake.
One of the primary reasons that the LCC exists, and in fact, why so many other 'Catholic' churches exist, is because, while we have similar historical, theological and organizational structures, we all differ in our approaches to ecclesiology.
Well...I may be wrong but I was taught the Liberal Catholic Church primarily existed "forward the work of her Master, Christ". Or atleast thats what dear Bishop Wedgwood wrote in his preface to 'The Liturgy'. I think saying the church exists because it can provide a "different flavour of catholicism" isn't really very fair. It smacks very much of DIY Christianity, and this has never been what 'The Liberal Catholic Church' is about.
Interestingly, relating to the point of why the Church exists, I do recall reading something written by Bishop Pigott which I read some years ago, where he stated that the particular duty of the Liberal Catholic Church is to 'proclaim the new Gnosis' and to help humanity free itself from the tyranny of the 'God of Abraham'. It could have been his book 'The Parting of the Ways' the only official Theological volume produced by the Church.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
The Spanish version of the Liturgy uses a traditional form rather than a contemporary form.
Hey Mason,
Was this edition of 'The Liturgy' published by the "Old Synod" or whats known as the LCCI outside of America ?
[Code fix. Mamacita, Host]
[ 09. January 2010, 02:37: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Mamacita
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Posted
Celestialstarfire: Hie thee to the UBB Practice Thread in the Styx and experiment with the quotes function. Just a suggestion.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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LibCath2000
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Posted
CSF,
Its late night over here, so I'll be brief...
You write, as if you speak for the entire Liberal Catholic movement.
And no, I'm not trying to be rude at all, I'm just frustrated that you seem to contest everything I say.
When I make mention of the liturgy used by the LCC, I am almost always referring to the CURRENT liturgy used by the LCC Worldwide. For me, that is what is most relevant to the discussion.
Moreover, I do not pretend to know the practices of any other group labeling itself Liberal Catholic.
As to the liturgy being "verbose", I do not find this to be true. But of course, that is matter of opinion.
Also, you have entirely misunderstood my statement about just ONE of the reasons why the LCC was formed.
Nowhere could anyone infer that I meant that THE primary reason for our existence was to serve a particular constituency. Of course, the core of our existence is the call to further the Kingdom of God. There is really little or no disagreement between you and I on this point.
Anyway, in closing, my direct contact with many of the priests and faithful in my Communion (including our Presiding Bishop) have confirmed to me, that my statements are not by any means, "off-the-mark," but are shared by a large percentage of our Church.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Eddy
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Has LCC developed this tradition, or is it more strict in sticking to traditional liturgy in all its worship forms?
In the 1970's extensive work was done to see if the Eucharistic Rites of the Church could be re-orientated in the same way that Vatican II had altered the rites of the Roman Church. However, I believe it was decided that we could not adequately adapt the rites and a complete re-write was seen as out of the question.
There was also work done to create an LCC version of the 'Folk Mass' phenomena. But this too died a death.
Under Bishop Sten von Krusenstierna there was also much liturgical work done relating to the Holy lady Mary. Marian Benediction and Compline were developed, as well as other rites.
Thanks for this. Most Catholic churches revise there liturgies as the years go by, and until the moon fails. So I see does LCC. It does seem to be necessary for the new generations if a church isnt to get too fossilised, and if it is to allow a space for new styles of worship - which may be done, rightly, along the old styles. Its the new and experimental that LCC church seems short of.
Marian Benediction sounds interesting. I know LCC church have a Marian service but I didnt realise it also had a special Mary Benediction. It would be great to see a video clip of that worship.
Have you read 'The Secret life of Bees?' The group there have special rites focussing on our lady - its fiction, but v interesting, you know.
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
You write, as if you speak for the entire Liberal Catholic movement.
Of course I don't write on behalf of the entire Liberal Catholic movement. I've just tried to reflect that not all share your perspective. At points what you have said has not strictly reflected the full state of affairs. As I said before, I have not sought deliberately to oppose you. I guess thats the big problem with allowing both clergy and congregation freedom of interpretation. It can make saying general statements difficult.
quote:
As to the liturgy being "verbose", I do not find this to be true. But of course, that is matter of opinion.
I do agree with you, I love the liturgy and always have done and feel now that I could never take part in another form of Worship. But I have tried to be a bit more open relating to how others may see 'The Liturgy' by saying that some who are used to less elaborate liturgies could find it so. I don't see any harm in that, it is truely beautiful but even Leadbeater admitted it still needed work (in science of the sacraments, and he was mainly talking about the music for it). It is also true that the Church has in the past experimented greatly with its Liturgy, which I think is a strength. Not being afraid of change, but not "throwing the baby out with the bath-water" either. I guess what I've tried to say by raising that is that the LCC has never been opposed to trying new things (evidence being its history, not my personal opionion or me trying to speak on behalf of a global movement).
I don't think we are disagreeing much about the Church etc. Can we move on a bit and back to the Liturgy?
Does anyone have practical experience of 'Our Lady's Rosary of the Seven Rays' and what do you think about it? I think its a particularly beautiful expression of the Rosary.....
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celestialstarfire
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Its the new and experimental that LCC church seems short of.
Bishop Markus van Alphen was a priest in 'The Liberal Catholic Church', his father was the former Presiding Bishop of the Church. In his retirement Johannes van Alphen helped co-found a new Liturgical movement called 'The Young Rite' and they do a great deal of experimentation liturgically, whilst not claiming to be specifically 'Liberal Catholic'.Perhaps you might like to investigate their work? I believe that they use as their base 'The Liturgy' and many of the rubrics written by Bishop Irving Cooper in his book Ceremonies of the Liberal Rite.
I am not a subscriber to what they do, but Bishop Johannes van Alphen was known to be an exceptional liturgist. I've seen a video of him celebrating the 'Short Form' of the Eucharist, and it truely is a sight to see. Unfortunatley he passed into eternity about this time last year. I only mention them to you Eddy because of who Bishop Johannes was and its sort of relevant to the point above. I believe that they have adopted the practice of "abolishing the sanctuary" in that there's no division between celebrant and congregation, and everyone sits around the Altar. Something I gather at one point many moons ago the LCC did experiement with "masses in the round" and "splitting the mensa" but these practices were abandoned.
quote:
Marian Benediction sounds interesting. I know LCC church have a Marian service but I didnt realise it also had a special Mary Benediction. It would be great to see a video clip of that worship.
I don't know if such a clip of the Marian Benediction Service exists. Perhaps LC2K can help here?? Or Mason? I know that the book 'Services of Our Lady' in the edition I own (a first print) has something to the effect that it was only to be used where authorised as it was (at that time regarded as being) experiemental. Now I don't know if thats changed or not, but it still has some rather lovely services in it.
quote:
Have you read 'The Secret life of Bees?' The group there have special rites focussing on our lady - its fiction, but v interesting, you know.
No but I've seen the movie. It was good, I liked Queen Latifah, she always plays a good part in my opinion.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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LibCath2000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
Can we move on a bit and back to the Liturgy?
Absolutely...
As to the Ray Rosary, it is well known in Roman Catholic circles, where it is known as the Franciscan Crown.
Of course, in the LCC, there is a more mystical approach to this particular devotion.
Also, I could not find any video of a Marian service in the LCC (and in fact there are few videos online about Liberal Catholicism), but I did find this.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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patriotic_mason
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
The Spanish version of the Liturgy uses a traditional form rather than a contemporary form.
Hey Mason,
Was this edition of 'The Liturgy' published by the "Old Synod" or whats known as the LCCI outside of America ?
[Code fix. Mamacita, Host]
La Liturgia was published in Bogota, Columbia in 1961 and was based on the 3rd edition of The Liturgy.
It was done under the authority of the original Liberal Catholic Church under +Vreede.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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