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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Pope Resigns
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
This is dramatic news.
Has it ever happened before? What could his reasons be?
Do p***s resign due to ill health?
Is it about the abuse scandal?
How will the RCC react?
Know then thyself, presume not God to scan;
The pr***r study of mankind is man. - Alexander P***, An Essay on Man: Epistle II
<small>[ 11. February 2013, 23:08: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]</small>
[ 10. April 2013, 05:57: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Assumed this was a practical joke - but it looks as though it's actually happening. I often wondered about JP2 resigning, when his health got so bad, but I never thought Benny would.
With too much knowledge for the sceptic side,
With too much weakness for the stoic's pride, - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:55: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Apparently the announcement was made in Latin by the p*** himself, and Italian/German news agency report that it will happen soon (28th of February)!
The timing is odd. I wouldn't have expected him to pull out in the middle of Lent, if it was merely for personal reasons (i.e., being fed up with the Curia, wanting to finish his life writing books, or whatever). I'm afraid my best bet currently is that he's dying... ![[Frown]](frown.gif) I haven't seen anything on the usual "informed channels" yet.
In doubt his mind or body to prefer;
Born but to die, and reas'ning but to err; - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:31: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The timing is odd. I wouldn't have expected him to pull out in the middle of Lent, if it was merely for personal reasons (i.e., being fed up with the Curia, wanting to finish his life writing books, or whatever). I'm afraid my best bet currently is that he's dying... I haven't seen anything on the usual "informed channels" yet.
Good point about lent. But haven't p***s died in office for many centuries?
Alike in ignorance, his reason such,
Whether he thinks too little, or too much: - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:32: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The timing is odd. I wouldn't have expected him to pull out in the middle of Lent, if it was merely for personal reasons (i.e., being fed up with the Curia, wanting to finish his life writing books, or whatever). I'm afraid my best bet currently is that he's dying... I haven't seen anything on the usual "informed channels" yet.
Good point about lent. But haven't p***s died in office for many centuries?
Yes, but if his death, God forbid, is to be drawn-out and painful, perhaps he feels the Church would benefit from that happening behind closed doors?
Thurible
Sole judge of truth, in endless error hurl'd:
The glory, jest, and riddle of the world! - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:57: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Google translate of the words of the p***:
quote:
"Dear brothers - said the P*** to the c*******s - I called this consistory not only for the three canonization, but also to communicate a decision of great importance for the life of the Church. Having repeatedly examined my conscience before God, I have reached the certainty that my strength, advanced age, are no longer suitable for exercise pr***rly the Petrine ministry. ""I am well aware - he added - that this ministry, for its spiritual essence, must be done not only with the works and words, but no less suffering and p*r*a*y*ing. However, in today's world, subject to rapid change and agitated by issues of great importance for the life of faith, to steer the boat of St. Peter and proclaim the Gospel, you must also force both for the body and soul, force that, in recent months, I fell in such a way as to acknowledge my inability to manage well the ministry entrusted to me."
(via la Repubblica, accessed 11:26 on 11/02/13)
P.S.: "P*r*a*y*ing" spelling to get around H&A day word blocking.
P.P.S.: Cross-post with another link to the resignation text.
Go, wondrous creature! mount where science guides,
Go, measure earth, weigh air, and state the tides; - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:57: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Assumed this was a practical joke - but it looks as though it's actually happening. I often wondered about JP2 resigning, when his health got so bad, but I never thought Benny would.
One commentator on the BBC reports says that as C*******, he had advised John Paul II to resign when his health was extremely bad. So maybe, as P***, having watched the way things went with the previous incumbent, he wants to follow his own advice. The P*** stated that he felt his 'strength' was inadequate for the ministry, I believe, during his announcement.
Still seems very sudden.
Go, soar with Plato to th' empyreal sphere,
To the first good, first perfect, and first fair; - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:41: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
Timing seems odd. During the run-up to Easter. Knowing how long these things take do you think the Pilgrims in St Peter's Square will be satified with an empty balcony on Easter Sunday?
Or will you just get some nondescript C******* delivering the Easter Homily!
As Eastern ******s in giddy circles run,
And turn their heads to imitate the sun. - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:43: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
They could borrow ex-ABC Rowan Williams. Now that would be brilliant. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Go, teach Eternal Wisdom how to rule—
Then drop into thyself, and be a fool! - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:44: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Good point about lent. But haven't p***s died in office for many centuries?
Sure. But that is not a necessity, not even really a discipline (at least not officially). Given the ability of modern medicine to stretch out the process of dying considerably, one could say that this is a very good reversal of tradition.
Still, I very much doubt that there is no other backdrop to this. If it is not a medical emergency, then we have at a minimum the matter of the p***'s butler to consider. It may well be the case that the p*** felt unable to deal with an internal conspiracy.
Another possibility is that the likelihood of reintegration of the SSPX appears now quite remote again (after seeming like an almost done deal for a while). This may not be of great importance to most here, but it certainly was a project very dear to BXVI's heart (he was involved in these matters from their start). He may have held out much longer than he wanted to in the h*** to "close the Lefebvrist deal", as it were, and since it does not seem to work in the end is now "suddenly" throwing the towel. The SSPX will very much regret having missed the opportunity of settling matters with this p***, of that I am certain...
Superior beings, when of late they saw
A mortal Man unfold all Nature's law, - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:45: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
Presumably, since he died in office, P*** John Paul II was rather limited in his ability to influence who his successor might be.
Assuming ******** is around during the period of his successor's election, what involvement might he have?
Admir'd such wisdom in an earthly shape,
And showed a Newton as we shew an Ape. - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:46: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
He witnessed JPII dying slowly. He also witnessed that as JPII faded, certain interest groups within the Vatican came to the fore, in a sort of unofficial regency. If ******** wants to prevent this from happening again, stepping down when facing the fact that his forces are diminishing is a wise thing to do to ensure "legitimate" governance of the church (ie governance by a P*** in full force and control).
A wise and humble decision which only increases my respect for the man.
On a lighter note:
Of course now there will be much more time to prepare a conclave (as compared to a ¨P*** dying), which leaves more space for (a) politicking and (b) conspiracy theories. I look forward to following both...
Could he, whose rules the rapid comet bind,
Describe or fix one movement of his mind? - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:47: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Presumably, since he died in office, P*** John Paul II was rather limited in his ability to influence who his successor might be.
I doubt that it was entirely by accident that JPII's right hand man got the call...
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Assuming ******** is around during the period of his successor's election, what involvement might he have?
Considerable, beyond the influence he has already extended over who gets to vote for the next p***. He won't be able to vote though. According to Wikipedia "There are now a total of 209 C*******s, of whom 118 are aged under 80. Of the voting-age c*******s, 51 were appointed by P*** John Paul II, and 67 by P*** ******** XVI." So it would be rather surprising if a "liberal" p*** got elected.
A fairly recent (and competent!) list of possible "papabiles" is here.
Who saw its fires here rise, and there descend,
Explain his own beginning, or his end? - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:48: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
I gather from the BBC (it flashed past on the live feed, so I can't link to it) that they* intend to have a new P*** in place by the end of March - and also that the P***'s Aides were 'incredulous' at the decision.
*ETA 'they' means the Vatican, not the BBC...
Alas what wonder! Man's superior part
Uncheck'd may rise, and climb from art to art; - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:49: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
A fairly recent (and competent!) list of possible "papabiles" is here.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) H&A day ate my link. This should work.
Deduct what is but vanity, or dress,
Or learning's luxury, or idleness; - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:52: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
interesting point made on the bbc about the P*** wishing to spend the rest of his life in an enclosed (former?) nuns' convent within the Vatican. Enclosed or not, the presence of a former P*** in close proximity of the new one will be difficult.
I would have thought he'd seek retirement in a monastery in South Germany.
Or tricks to show the stretch of human brain,
Mere curious pleasure, or ingenious pain; - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:53: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Codepoet
Best Bear On Board
# 5964
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Posted
Why is the BBC saying that he is "resigning" and not "retiring"? Could it be that resignation is what politicians are hounded to do when they have done something wrong? He is 85 years old - the word retirement just seems so obvious, it is striking that they have not used it.
Expunge the whole, or lop th' excrescent parts
Of all our Vices have created Arts; - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:59: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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It's more important to be kind than to be right.
Posts: 1156 | From: Southampton | Registered: May 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Codepoet:
Why is the BBC saying that he is "resigning" and not "retiring"? Could it be that resignation is what politicians are hounded to do when they have done something wrong? He is 85 years old - the word retirement just seems so obvious, it is striking that they have not used it.
Because P***s don't retire?
Then see how little the remaining sum,
Which serv'd the past, and must the times to come! - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 21:59: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Enclosed or not, the presence of a former P*** in close proximity of the new one will be difficult.
In general, maybe. In this particular case, I doubt that very much. BXVI is a quiet gentleman scholar, and just about the last thing he will be seeking is the limelight, whether public or ecclesiastic. Come to think of it, he really is the best possible pick for establishing the pr***r decorum for a resigned p*** in modern times.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Why is the BBC saying that he is "resigning" and not "retiring"? Could it be that resignation is what politicians are hounded to do when they have done something wrong? He is 85 years old - the word retirement just seems so obvious, it is striking that they have not used it.
The papacy has in common with UK (Prime) Ministries that it has no "retirement age". Usually one stays in the job until one is removed, in the political case by the voter or the Prime Minister, in the religious case by death. If one goes early, then that simply is called a "resignation", no matter why that has happened.
Two principles in human nature reign;
Self-love, to urge, and reason, to restrain; - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 22:00: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The papacy has in common with UK (Prime) Ministries that it has no "retirement age". Usually one stays in the job until one is removed, in the political case by the voter or the Prime Minister, in the religious case by death. If one goes early, then that simply is called a "resignation", no matter why that has happened.
I'd always assumed it was more like a monarch and that they held the post until death. What will he become once he's stepped down?
And to their pr***r ***ration still,
Ascribe all good; to their impr***r, ill. - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 22:02: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Enclosed or not, the presence of a former **** in close proximity of the new one will be difficult.
In general, maybe. In this particular case, I doubt that very much. BXVI is a quiet gentleman scholar, and just about the last thing he will be seeking is the limelight, whether public or ecclesiastic. Come to think of it, he really is the best possible pick for establishing the pr***r decorum for a resigned **** in modern times.
It's not just about the person who resigns / retires - it's about those who were close to him being less than fully respectful to the successor by continuing to seek his advice / 'wisdom'. Such a temptation. He should go far away.
Self-love, the spring of motion, acts the soul;
Reason's comparing balance rules the whole. - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 22:04: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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kentishmaid
Shipmate
# 4767
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Posted
People are surprised because nothing like this has happened for about 600 years! And I'm not sure comparing it to deserting the army is helpful. As a non-******** I'm not in much position to comment, but from the perspective of the influence a **** has, I'm hoping for a replacement who is a touch more liberal.
Fix'd like a plant on his peculiar spot,
To draw nutrition, propagate, and rot; - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 22:05: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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"Who'll be the lady, who'll be the lord, when we are ruled by the love of one another?"
Posts: 2063 | From: Huddersfield | Registered: Jul 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I'd always assumed it was more like a monarch and that they held the post until death. What will he become once he's stepped down?
It's not as if UK monarchs or Dutch monarchs, for example, never resign...
Once he has stepped down, he will be a retired C*a*r*d*i*n*a*l and (Arch)b*i*s*h*o*p, officially. The p*o*p*e is after all "just" the B*i*s*h*o*p of Rome. (Idiot spelling because of H&A day.)
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
It's not just about the person who resigns / retires - it's about those who were close to him being less than fully respectful to the successor by continuing to seek his advice / 'wisdom'. Such a temptation. He should go far away.
The p*o*p*e is not quite as powerless a figurehead as the ABC, who relies on personal connections and goodwill only to get things done. (Indeed, if you want to know what will be the major power challenge to any incoming p*o*p*e, then watching "Yes, Prime Minister" will give you a fair idea.)
Most strength the moving principle requires;
Active its task, it prompts, impels, inspires. - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 22:07: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
My initial reaction was that ******** was leaving on very short notice. However, it probably wouldn't do to have a lame duck ****, so to speak. I also suspect that after witnessing close at hand the decline of John Paul II, he did not want to replay what became a rather sad farce, where for an extended time the **** was really unable to fulfill his executive, *****istrative and pastoral roles, reduced to a mere ailing figurehead, while those around him in the high bureaucracy attempted to carry on.
At a more proximate level, perhaps ******** is so frail that he feels unable to pr***rly carry out another Holy Week and Easter as ****, thus motivating his decision to resign now, so that a new ****** of Rome might be elected before the end of Lent.
I'm hoping for a really extraordinary outcome in which the Holy Spirit proves His mettle and ++KJC is elevated to the throne of Peter. From God's mouth to the collective ears of those tiresome old men in their scarlet dresses and lace who will be convening in the Sistine Chapel.
That sees immediate good by present sense;
Reason, the future and the consequence. - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 22:12: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Sorry, but can we have "KJC" and "KJS" unabbreviated, please?
In other news, it seems like this really was a surprise move by the ****, see the video here.
The action of the stronger to suspend,
Reason still use, to reason still attend. - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 22:14: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Desert Daughter - It's when minds warped and twisted like a mobius corkscrew mated with a Kline bottle in 5 dimensional expanding space by constant reading of inanity and stupidity are allowed free reign lest they explode and cover their computers with gore.
Sometimes they even change the names of boards.
waking up in a cold sweat remembering the far off days when he ****ed Purg
And grace and virtue, sense and reason split,
With all the rash dexterity of wit: - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 22:17: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
And since we're at it, what is H&A day?
It is the chaos currently engulfing the Ship. And if I try to spell it out in full, I won't be allowed.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Wits, just like fools, at war about a name,
Have full as oft no meaning, or the same. - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 22:17: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
What will he become once he's stepped down?
A retired ******.
Though probably not Master of a Cambridge College.
I wonder if holding the conclave during Lent will speed up the process?
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
C'mon, who else thought it was an H&A Day story gone viral?
Me ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Read it here first, assumed it was a joke.
Still not completely convinced it isn't.
Modes of self-love the passions we may call:
'Tis real good, or seeming, moves them all: - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 22:21: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Though probably not Master of a Cambridge College.
He has remained being a Honorary Professor of Dogmatics at the University of Regensburg anyhow...
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I wonder if holding the conclave during Lent will speed up the process?
There will be pressure to have the new **** in office prior to the Easter celebrations. That said, I just checked and apparently it just took 17 days from the death of JPII to the election of BXVI.
The apparent reason for the timing of the announcement was that much of the College of ********s was present at that consistory. So BXVI sure kick-started the discussion effectively as well.
I've just read that he will not be participating in the conclave, BTW.
Passions, though selfish, if their means be fair,
List under reason, and deserve her care; - Alexander P***
[ 11. February 2013, 22:23: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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